Formation change next season (4-3-3)

[gregor]

I'm not sure if it is possible to play 4-3-3 with Bruno and Pogba. I think only solution to play them both was used by Ole last season - Pogba on left side of midfield.
If we wolud want to play both in 4-3-3 formation we would need world class DM (Makelele, Gattuso,...).

 

[bsCallout]

I wonder why. Maybe they reckon that would be an unwise use of a player who outscored (G+A) every striker in the premier league except one, but who's not much of a tackler, marker, ball retainer or aerial player and who has the worst pass completion among all midfielders in his club.

Come on people - almost everything Bruno does well, he does in or around the opposition box. And almost everything he does badly, he does further back. To play him deep would be mental.

The thing with these stats though, he's got those stats because of how he's being deployed. Pass completion for example is much lower than it would be if he was played further back because he's trying difficult passes all the time, surrounded by players. If he was tasked with playing from deeper you'd see him have a much better pass completion rate even if it isn't his strongest attribute.

Bruno as the most advanced of a midfield three would work perfectly fine, if I'm not mistaken he has some of the best challenging stats for a forward player.

Having a defensive RB helps in this respect too because Bruno wouldn't be tasked with filling that gap as often as with a fullback that bombs forward constantly.

I think playing Bruno in a midfield three would be the best thing we could do against low block teams. It gives space for our players to move and space for our forwards to run in to, with Pogba and Bruno picking the passes.

Against the big teams I'd stick with a 4231 or even 433 with Bruno as a false 9 and an extra defensive player like Fred or McT in the midfield 3.

 

[JanK]

I'd like to see the formation which plays on our strengths, not weaknesses.

We need to maximise Bruno, Pogba (yes, he still is our top tier player and if we don't cash him this summer, then we need to squeeze him as much as we can), Sancho (if he arrives) and Rashford. Other players have roles which are obvious (Shaw is LB, Maguire is CB and not a DM etc), but these attacking players are more dynamic and needed to be found the right role and position on the pitch.

If Rashford is his best (at first, he needs to become injury-free and take a long rest or reduce the workload), he is on the left side, combining with Shaw. Bruno is better as a 10 and not an 8, Pogba is better as an 8 not a 10.

According to this logic, a 4-2-3-1 is reasonable, right? A 4-3-3 might damage Bruno, as he plays lower, but that makes Pogba better (supposedly). Sancho, I don't understand whether he'd be better or worse in these formations - a pure winger or a wide forward.

 

[Sunny Jim]

To play 4-3-3 with Pogba and Bruno as hybrid 8/10 we would need Keano in his pomp to cover for them. I like the idea but we miss #6 to make it happen

 

[DoomSlayer]

I don't see this happening, we haven't used a 4-3-3 formation in a long time.

 

[CanadianUtd]

I’m all for it and have mentioned it here somewhere a few weeks back.

433 diamond - what’s missing to allow us to play it is a true DM such a Rice who could mimic the Fernandinho role for us. Keep things tidy at the back sweeping whatever comes towards him out and allowing everyone else ahead of him to do their thing; just an absolute destroyer with above average passing capabilities. What I would most love about this is it would force the team/players to break teams down without any excuses. No more sitting back and counter attacking (which we already know we’re lethal at) but help sharpen the attacking tendencies against lower sides (which the 433 diamond would mostly be used against) which as a result should help translate somewhat against the big sides so we don’t just have counter attacks to rely on.


433 attacking

Rashford - Sancho
..............VDB
Pogba ———— Bruno
..............Rice

4 midfielders, 3 of which are offensive minded, with VDB at the tip of the diamond to integrate him. This honestly would make a ton of sense as it solves the game time dilemma for VDB whilst not hindering the team. You would see this mainly against bottom third teams


433 balanced

Rashford - Sancho
..............Bruno
Pogba ———— McFred
..............Rice

4 midfielders, classic Bruno leading at the tip and instead of Pogba having to look out on the defensive end more like he usually does, the extra midfielder in McFred can do that while also as a bonus having the freedom with Rice(a proper DM) behind them to go press the opposition as they are both natural ball winning CMs that attack and harass.Taking out VDB, advancing Bruno to the top, and having 1 of McFred there to balance things would quite honestly allow such a variation to be played and challenged against the top sides of the league.


433 balanced v2(3 mid)

.............Rashford - Cavani
......................Sancho
Pogba/McFred —— Bruno
.........................Rice

3 midfielders with Rice still doing the bulk of the defensive duties. If a bit more direct attack minded players are need, McFred (or Pogba) can be taken out for someone like Cavani. Fluid front 3 up top and someone like Sancho who looks close to being inked, would be crossing over both sides of the pitch naturally anyways. This again could be used against the top sides as well. Specifically McFred if you want a tad bit more balance or Pogba if you’re brave (which tbh is the exact same kind of situation he plays and exceeds with France. They trust him with Kante and allow them to start ala be brave)



& what I like about the formations with Bruno not being at the top of the diamond is, like the Europa League final, him playing a tad deeper will draw defenders further out anyways . If not, more room for him to operate in. Win-win scenario. Let’s not forget Cavani/Mason/Martial/McFred(Pogba) would be options available to come off the bench as well.

Dear lord let’s prioritize Rice and get it across the line please. He in my heart of hearts is the key holding this squad back from going to the next level. The squad imbalance of not having a proper DM is why we don’t play 433’s (well apart from Matic who’s unable to play regularly now). Get him and the creativity and playability of our players and formations skyrockets!!

 

[hungrywing]

If SAF were still around he'd sign some 20m youngster DM who'd slot in seamlessly and make it work*

Who knows. Maybe Ole pulls it off.

*but still be playing 442 in the league

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

If we dont get a DM you can be sure theres not going to be a formation change

 

[el3mel]

As long as we have Bruno we will keep on playing 4-2-3-1. It's clearly the best formation for him and his abilities and he's our best player.

 

[He'sRaldo]

As long as we have Bruno we will keep on playing 4-2-3-1. It's clearly the best formation for him and his abilities and he's our best player.

Is the difference in ability between him and others so big that we can't try other more fitting options?

I can understand what you're saying if he was like CR7 banging them in week in week out and carrying us to the title, but if he's not going to do that then surely we can't pick a formation only with him in mind. We have to aim for getting the highest level out of the collective.

 

[el3mel]

Is the difference in ability between him and others so big that we can't try other more fitting options?

I can understand what you're saying if he was like CR7 banging them in week in week out and carrying us to the title, but if he's not going to do that then surely we can't pick a formation only with him in mind. We have to aim for getting the highest level out of the collective.

But for us he has been our most productive player and pretty much every ball goes through him first. He's not good as CR7 but for this current United he's the closest to that. I honestly don't think Ole will want to shuffle the formation if it's going to hurt Bruno's productivity, because not like the other options are confirmed to be as good.

 

[justsomebloke]

Is the difference in ability between him and others so big that we can't try other more fitting options?

I can understand what you're saying if he was like CR7 banging them in week in week out and carrying us to the title, but if he's not going to do that then surely we can't pick a formation only with him in mind. We have to aim for getting the highest level out of the collective.

Yes it is. He is banging them in week in week out. He was second in PL scoring this season and tied for first in assists.

 

[justsomebloke]

@justsomebloke

The thing for me about Bruno is that even though he is an CAM - he is never just sticking there. You will see him run around everywhere because he has a high work rate - usually ends up tackling a player that might have bypassed Mctominay or Fred - you will see him as deep as the defensive line at times.

That’s why I wonder why we can’t start Bruno a bit deeper and let him focus on making his runs forward rather than him starting forward and making runs back. The same with Pogba - 2 attacking minded CAM that start at CM but have the freedom to attack due to the right protecting CDM.

I'm no expert, but to me it just doesn't seem a good idea for BF to spend less time around the opposition box, or more time further back. He tracks back yes, but the main thing is he has full freedom to get involved in the attacking areas. I doubt he'd have that to the same extent as part of a midfield line. Whichever way you cut it, any adjustment in the direction of deeper placement means a change in role that entails some curtailment of his offensive game. If it doesn't, then there's no change and nothing to discuss, right? So I think you have to accept that if you favor this, there is going to be a cost.

 

[justsomebloke]

I’m all for it and have mentioned it here somewhere a few weeks back.

433 diamond - what’s missing to allow us to play it is a true DM such a Rice who could mimic the Fernandinho role for us. Keep things tidy at the back sweeping whatever comes towards him out and allowing everyone else ahead of him to do their thing; just an absolute destroyer with above average passing capabilities. What I would most love about this is it would force the team/players to break teams down without any excuses. No more sitting back and counter attacking (which we already know we’re lethal at) but help sharpen the attacking tendencies against lower sides (which the 433 diamond would mostly be used against) which as a result should help translate somewhat against the big sides so we don’t just have counter attacks to rely on.


433 attacking

Rashford - Sancho
..............VDB
Pogba ———— Bruno
..............Rice

4 midfielders, 3 of which are offensive minded, with VDB at the tip of the diamond to integrate him. This honestly would make a ton of sense as it solves the game time dilemma for VDB whilst not hindering the team. You would see this mainly against bottom third teams


433 balanced

Rashford - Sancho
..............Bruno
Pogba ———— McFred
..............Rice

4 midfielders, classic Bruno leading at the tip and instead of Pogba having to look out on the defensive end more like he usually does, the extra midfielder in McFred can do that while also as a bonus having the freedom with Rice(a proper DM) behind them to go press the opposition as they are both natural ball winning CMs that attack and harass.Taking out VDB, advancing Bruno to the top, and having 1 of McFred there to balance things would quite honestly allow such a variation to be played and challenged against the top sides of the league.


433 balanced v2(3 mid)

.............Rashford - Cavani
......................Sancho
Pogba/McFred —— Bruno
.........................Rice

3 midfielders with Rice still doing the bulk of the defensive duties. If a bit more direct attack minded players are need, McFred (or Pogba) can be taken out for someone like Cavani. Fluid front 3 up top and someone like Sancho who looks close to being inked, would be crossing over both sides of the pitch naturally anyways. This again could be used against the top sides as well. Specifically McFred if you want a tad bit more balance or Pogba if you’re brave (which tbh is the exact same kind of situation he plays and exceeds with France. They trust him with Kante and allow them to start ala be brave)



& what I like about the formations with Bruno not being at the top of the diamond is, like the Europa League final, him playing a tad deeper will draw defenders further out anyways . If not, more room for him to operate in. Win-win scenario. Let’s not forget Cavani/Mason/Martial/McFred(Pogba) would be options available to come off the bench as well.

Dear lord let’s prioritize Rice and get it across the line please. He in my heart of hearts is the key holding this squad back from going to the next level. The squad imbalance of not having a proper DM is why we don’t play 433’s (well apart from Matic who’s unable to play regularly now). Get him and the creativity and playability of our players and formations skyrockets!!

Some nice effort put into that post - but why would we invest 80 million in a winger only to switch to a formation with no wingers, and use Sancho as either a no 10 or a striker?

 

[He'sRaldo]

But for us he has been our most productive player and pretty much every ball goes through him first. He's not good as CR7 but for this current United he's the closest to that. I honestly don't think Ole will want to shuffle the formation if it's going to hurt Bruno's productivity, because not like the other options are confirmed to be as good.

Yes it is. He is banging them in week in week out. He was second in PL scoring this season and tied for first in assists.

His numbers were good, but not to the level I'd prioritize him over others when thinking of a formation. For instance in the CL and PL he had similar non-penalty numbers to Rashford, and I wouldn't say Rashford should be built around/prioritized.

Bruno's a top player with great contribution, but he's not good enough to carry us to the big prizes. His numbers aren't to the level of a CR7 or Messi who would score 50+, or even peak Salah or Kane who were scoring around 30 league goals. And mind you even with that sort of contribution Kane didn't win anything, despite Spurs being a very good team revolving around him for years.

The point being instead of looking at a formation that would get an extra 20% out of Bruno mainly, I'd be looking at something that can extract an extra 5% out of everyone in the team, or even just the attackers alone.

I remember a period in the 19/20 season where Rashford and Martial were taking turns stepping up and being decisive game after game. If we could develop that sort of dynamic with all of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Cavani, Bruno, and Pogba, to me that's much better than focusing on just Bruno.

 

[CanadianUtd]

Some nice effort put into that post - but why would we invest 80 million in a winger only to switch to a formation with no wingers, and use Sancho as either a no 10 or a striker?

Attack by committee. Sancho wouldn’t necessarily be striker, he’d be out wide. The diamond would be a false9 approach. Sort of how City operated this past year.

It’d be very doable considering the quality of the attacking players we have and their IQ. No stand out “goal scorer” but you know any given match any player could be the one on the scoresheet since they’re capable of it. What I mentioned is only for 433. I’m sure we’ll still be using 4231.

 

[justsomebloke]

His numbers were good, but not to the level I'd prioritize him over others when thinking of a formation. For instance in the CL and PL he had similar non-penalty numbers to Rashford, and I wouldn't say Rashford should be built around/prioritized.

Bruno's a top player with great contribution, but he's not good enough to carry us to the big prizes. His numbers aren't to the level of a CR7 or Messi who would score 50+, or even peak Salah or Kane who were scoring around 30 league goals. And mind you even with that sort of contribution Kane didn't win anything, despite Spurs being a very good team revolving around him for years.

The point being instead of looking at a formation that would get an extra 20% out of Bruno mainly, I'd be looking at something that can extract an extra 5% out of everyone in the team, or even just the attackers alone.

I remember a period in the 19/20 season where Rashford and Martial were taking turns stepping up and being decisive game after game. If we could develop that sort of dynamic with all of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Cavani, Bruno, and Pogba, to me that's much better than focusing on just Bruno.

"His numbers were good, but not to the level I'd prioritize him over others when thinking of a formation"? He was second in the PL. Other than Harry Kane, no one was better. 18 goals, 12 assists - which means he was directly involved in 30 of our 73 PL goals. So, at what level do you think it would be reasonable to "prioritize him over others"?

Look, I'm not saying you can't make a case United should nevertheless consider formations that doesn't favor him. But there's a whole lot of ridiculously breezy optimism on this thread about how hugely essential his offensive production is, and how that would be impacted by moving him to a more withdrawn position.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

I'm against anything that moves Bruno out of the number 10 position. For my money, he has been the best attacking player in the premier league since he signed. yeah, he tailed off at the end of the season, but unsurprising considering the amount of football he had played.

So for me moving our best player out of his best position, in order to make the best use of Pogba, a player while incredibly talented has been incredibly inconsistent, is not a wise choice.

Plus we don't have a DM who you would feel confident in covering the ground needed behind those 2 very attack-minded midfielders, and its very unlikely we are going to buy one if we are spending around 80 million on Sanchez and probably signing a centre back

 

[Abraxas]

I don't see that 4-3-3 is a massive difference to what we currently play, it's not like these formations are static things on a chalkboard.

Once the wide forwards push forward in our current system and one of the CMs push on slightly there is very little difference indeed. In many phases of play there will be very little difference.

For this reason I don't see how it changes the balance issues we have and what we need. It's still massively difficult to fit Pogba into a deeper role, you still have Bruno who we want to see closer to the opposition box. What is the functional difference going to be, in a 4-3-3 the considerations for the midfield makeup do not change drastically.

 

[Infra-red]

I expect we'll stick with 4-2-3-1.

In McFred, Solskjaer has found something which keeps games tight and stops us conceding too many. He's a risk averse manager and will naturally be conservative with his selections, so I don't see him moving away from that midfield base.

 

[Jezpeza]

I expect we'll stick with 4-2-3-1.

In McFred, Solskjaer has found something which keeps games tight and stops us conceding too many. He's a risk averse manager and will naturally be conservative with his selections, so I don't see him moving away from that midfield base.

I think ideally we want options. If we signed a really top dm they could still play instead of one of mcfred in a 4231. But i think the option of a 433 with pogba and fernandes could be good. We mainly lost points last season in games where teams sat deep, look at palace and west brom and sheffield united. In those sort of games fred is an empty shirt. You dont need 2 holding midfielders against a team that isnt going to commit any men forward

 

[Scottynaldinho]

I've been a huge fan of 4-3-3 formation in the ilk of what Portugal used to play a decade ago. But I'm not so sure about us ditching a formation that's getting the best out of our most influential player. We've had a glimpse of what can happen to him with Portugal if given a role that doesn't suit him.

 

[Gator Nate]

With our squad, I can see a 4-1-4-1 before I see a 4-3-3.

Henderson
AWB - Verane - Maguire - Shaw
Fred (McTominay)
Sancho - Bruno - Pogba - Rashford
Cavani (Greenwood)​

Martial can play either wing or the top striker, Van de Beek can play anything in the middle/left, McTominay can play anything in the middle, James on the right , Lindelof/Tuanzebe/Bailly for relief in back.

That's a squad that can break down the low block because you have two playmakers in the middle and threats on either end or front and center.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

I think Ole really likes the 4231

 

[Gator Nate]

I think Ole really likes the 4231

So do a lot of managers - about a third of the league used it this past season at some frequency or another.

 

[Borys]

If Pogba leaves and we get a proper defensive minded midfielder, we should switch to 4-3-3 when Bruno is being rested. Midfield can be covered with Fred and van de Beek, they would do well in that formation.
Our attackers are wide forwards anyway, and we've learned how to use fullbacks recently so I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

But I know Ole never goes for midfield 3.

 

[Walrus]

I would like to see a 4-3-3. Against weaker teams you can probably get away with fielding both Bruno and Pogba if they have a DM with them. Against stronger teams a Bruno/McT combination with a DM behind them looks solid to me.

 

[caid]

Against weaker teams why not just Pogba in a midfield 2? You keep Bruno in his best position you have a dm next to him to cover instead of Rashford being responsible when he doesn't track back.
We have very few players suited to a 4-3-3 imo. Our full backs are fairly defensive, I'm sure shaw could adjust but its a bit of a stretch for wan bisakka. Dont have the dm for it, its an awkward fit on paper for Bruno. If Bruno isn't in midfield and we double down on Pogba do we have a 3rd player suited to playing with him and this dm we dont have? Van de Beek maybe? Probably Fred or McTominay really though and i'd say they're better suited to working in a 2 generally.
Were just better suited to a 4231. We'd need to buy about 4 players to really make 433 work and shunt our best player out wide, probably to take our 2nd best players spot. Pogba would remain a part time footballer, costing us a similar number of goals as he provides. Theres no formation that can make a midfielder thats completely casual about defending, not particularly motivated, frequently disruptive into a world class player. He's not, he never was, i doubt he ever will be.
I'd get it if everyone was putting Van De Beek in their formations, he'll be here in a years time.

 

[Giant Midget]

This is the dream. We looked a much better team when we played 4-3-3 with Pogba, Matic and Herrera as a midfield three. Bruno will have to reign himself in a little bit, but I think he has it in him.

 

[Rolaholic]

Tweet

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Hallelujah

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

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Hallelujah

I really hope this is true. I know people have concerns about moving Bruno deeper but I think he's capable of it and even if he sacrifices a small number of his goals and assists, hopefully, the rest of the team can make up for that. I think it's 100% worth testing out.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Bruno loses the ball way too often to be a central midfielder, he is a risk taking #10 and he should be allowed to be just that, considering the amount of chances he creates in that frame of mind. A 4-3-3 would mean he would need to be pushed out to the wings and that's not happening, considering the glut of options we have there.

 

[romufc]

Bruno loses the ball way too often to be a central midfielder, he is a risk taking #10 and he should be allowed to be just that, considering the amount of chances he creates in that frame of mind. A 4-3-3 would mean he would need to be pushed out to the wings and that's not happening, considering the glut of options we have there.

It's quite weird how everyone keeps saying Bruno loses it too much to play CM, if he played CM, he wouldn't lose it as much.

Also, compare to Pogba who plays CM, Bruno pass accuracy is 78% and Pogba is 83% which is similar to KDB at 83% but no one talks about them losing the ball too much.

Bruno loses it 5% more but created 95 chances last season compared to 25 of Pogba. Now this is not me doing a Bruno or Pogba but even Mctominay has a 84% passing accuracy.

The problem is our midfield as a whole gives away the ball too much, compare that to Gundogan who has a 90% pass completion. We need everyone in our midfield to keep the ball better not just Bruno.

 

[MadMike]

It's quite weird how everyone keeps saying Bruno loses it too much to play CM, if he played CM, he wouldn't lose it as much.

Also, compare to Pogba who plays CM, Bruno pass accuracy is 78% and Pogba is 83% which is similar to KDB at 83% but no one talks about them losing the ball too much.

Bruno loses it 5% more but created 95 chances last season compared to 25 of Pogba. Now this is not me doing a Bruno or Pogba but even Mctominay has a 84% passing accuracy.

The problem is our midfield as a whole gives away the ball too much, compare that to Gundogan who has a 90% pass completion. We need everyone in our midfield to keep the ball better not just Bruno.

Use per 90' stats, bud. Otherwise those numbers tell us nothing. Pogba was out for much of last season, while Bruno played almost every match for full 90'.

 

[Trophy Room]

Bruno and Pogba give the ball away far too easily for this system to work. Maybe we’ll get away with it against smaller teams or alternatively we’ll have to find a defensive midfielder with generational ability.

 

[RkkMan]

Times like these I feel like strangling Mourinho for choosing Matic and Fred over Fabinho. An out out DM is ESSENTIAL for this formation to work. We wouldn't be having any problem transitioning to a 4-3-3 if we had Fabinho now but we either have to spend heavily on a new DM or gamble with Fred/Scott as anchors which will inevitably fail

 

[lenny_1248]

or alternatively we’ll have to find a defensive midfielder with generational ability.

It's time for "the child of the prophecy" Phil Jones to become the new Duncan Edwards.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

It's quite weird how everyone keeps saying Bruno loses it too much to play CM, if he played CM, he wouldn't lose it as much.

Also, compare to Pogba who plays CM, Bruno pass accuracy is 78% and Pogba is 83% which is similar to KDB at 83% but no one talks about them losing the ball too much.

Bruno loses it 5% more but created 95 chances last season compared to 25 of Pogba. Now this is not me doing a Bruno or Pogba but even Mctominay has a 84% passing accuracy.

The problem is our midfield as a whole gives away the ball too much, compare that to Gundogan who has a 90% pass completion. We need everyone in our midfield to keep the ball better not just Bruno.

Just looking at percentages doesn't tell the whole story. Bruno's accuracy is 74.6% at 2283 passing attempts. He gets on the ball at a disproportionate rate which is more comparable to defenders and deeper lying midfielders than attackers who face less pressure. Pobga on the other hand gets dispossessed more often than most strikers, which is criminal for the position he plays. Either of them can possibly play in a 4-3-3 but not both and especially not with Fred or McTominay as the third wheel.

 

[11101]

I like the idea and have been wanting us to play 4-3-3 for years. We will need some personnel changes though.

Two glaring problems there.

1. Cavani can't play every game and we have nobody else who can play that central role.
2. Fred has a huge amount of responsibility in that lineup. Bruno and Pogba will often be in the wrong place when it comes time to defend.

 

[romufc]

Use per 90' stats, bud. Otherwise those numbers tell us nothing. Pogba was out for much of last season, while Bruno played almost every match for full 90'.

Yep, I will use the method you prefer to see.

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/97752/Show/Paul-Pogba

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/123761/Show/Bruno-Fernandes

Bruno and Pogba make the same amount of short passes, 37 and Bruno makes 2 more inaccurate short passes per game, considering he plays second striker and Pogba plays in a 2 with a DM.