SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

decorativeed

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Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street train has just arrived. It's a 5 carriage train with the type of windows that don't open. Probably 100 people on it. I'd say 15% max are wearing masks. I can't see this experiment ending well.

Edit: As the train has been stuck on my platform not moving for ages, and as sad pedantz I was able to do a count. 88 no masks, 17 masks.

I was back in work today - I work in a museum - which was open to the public for the first time this week. I'd expected, given our culture crowd are often viewed as informed and slightly different in outlook to your general city centre shopper, that it'd be similar to pre-freedom day, but I was shocked to see a similar level of compliance to that train.
 
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Brwned

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I think that one of the issues related to wearing a mask is that we were all told that it was to protect others.
And now with the high rates of vaccinations, some people can be excused for thinking that it is no as important now.
That is not my view incidentally.

We are now being told that wearing a mask can work both ways, including protecting yourself from airborne droplets.

But whatever the reason, it is dim in the extreme to relax the requirement just when the delta variant is running out of control.
Yeah that's true. The mask messaging in general was just very poorly handled.

First we're told it protects healthcare workers but isn't useful for Joe public, then it's deemed essential to protect Joe public, then they clarify and say well really we were kind of right all along and it doesn't protect you that much but it does protect others much more than we originally estimated, so do it in the interests of the public good. That ambiguity or complexity just gives people permission to zone out, or cherry pick details. Then as you say the vaccination pushes some people off that fence.

Also the hot weather is an incentive to take the mask off. It's not unbearable but I do think it should be classified as more than a minor inconvenience at that point. I still think people should tolerate the inconvenience for the benefit it brings, but I understand it moves the needle a bit. Maybe it is super difficult for some elderly people to breath in that heat and mask.
 

djembatheking

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It is now ten days since the Euros finished and there doesn`t seem to be any big hospital surges in England, Italy, Spain or Denmark where the teams involved in the latter stages had fairly large gatherings in stadiums, fanzones and the like. Surely a good sign that vaccines are doing a good job and we may just have a chance with this reopening?
 

Rooney1987

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Iv not seen any real difference over last 3 days to June/July with masks. People who didn't want to wear one stopped a month ago from West Yorkshire public transport anyway.
 

RoadTrip

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It is now ten days since the Euros finished and there doesn`t seem to be any big hospital surges in England, Italy, Spain or Denmark where the teams involved in the latter stages had fairly large gatherings in stadiums, fanzones and the like. Surely a good sign that vaccines are doing a good job and we may just have a chance with this reopening?
Still probably quite soon to see impact on hospitalisation and deaths. Fingers crossed though there isn’t a significant spike.
 

djembatheking

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Still probably quite soon to see impact on hospitalisation and deaths. Fingers crossed though there isn’t a significant spike.
It is definitely looking promising though as there was some fairly big gatherings of fans shouting and celebrating in close quarters mostly outside granted, but there must have been a lot of indoor get togethers too .
 

The holy trinity 68

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What I am wondering is, why do people seem angry at people who refuse the vaccine, when the only person being at risk from not getting the vaccine is the person refusing?
 

The Cat

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Why don't you explain it to me?
By taking the risk yourself you are far more likely to catch it - and therefore pass it on to others. That's without the possibility of vaccinations reducing transmission.

So by choosing not to have it it certainly can affect many others and not just yourself not as you posted.
 

The holy trinity 68

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By taking the risk yourself you are far more likely to catch it - and therefore pass it on to others. That's without the possibility of vaccinations reducing transmission.

So by choosing not to have it it certainly can affect many others and not just yourself not as you posted.
That is not true though. Most of my friends are fully vaccinated and they still all caught covid over the Euro's. Every single one that caught covid and was vaccinated (7 in total) all gave their parents it and they are fully vaccinated.

It does get transmitted with or without the vaccine. The vaccine also doesn't stop covid from being on your hands and clothes. I caught covid from a fully vaccinated friend and he was actually worse than me even with 2 vaccines to my 0.

The vaccine helps stop covid from being less severe if you do get it, but it doesn't stop transmission.

Government websites even state that you can still catch Covid after vaccination.
 

The Cat

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That is not true though. Most of my friends are fully vaccinated and they still all caught covid over the Euro's. Every single one that caught covid and was vaccinated (7 in total) all gave their parents it and they are fully vaccinated.

It does get transmitted with or without the vaccine. The vaccine also doesn't stop covid from being on your hands and clothes. I caught covid from a fully vaccinated friend and he was actually worse than me even with 2 vaccines to my 0.

The vaccine helps stop covid from being less severe if you do get it, but it doesn't stop transmission.

Government websites even state that you can still catch Covid after vaccination.
You carry on fella.

I'll listen to the scientists cheers.
 

The Cat

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The reason I asked the question is because my first hand experience showed that my vaccinated friends all caught it and passed it on.

How about trying to enlighten and educate rather than dismissing and mocking?
Who is mocking? You are getting off very lightly here.

I already explained why your decisions can affect people other than yourself - that was your original point and it is totally wrong, that's on you if you want to believe a cross section of half a dozen people instead of all the officially published information.
 

Irwin99

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That is not true though. Most of my friends are fully vaccinated and they still all caught covid over the Euro's. Every single one that caught covid and was vaccinated (7 in total) all gave their parents it and they are fully vaccinated.

It does get transmitted with or without the vaccine. The vaccine also doesn't stop covid from being on your hands and clothes. I caught covid from a fully vaccinated friend and he was actually worse than me even with 2 vaccines to my 0.

The vaccine helps stop covid from being less severe if you do get it, but it doesn't stop transmission.

Government websites even state that you can still catch Covid after vaccination.
Out of interest how bad were the symptoms in your friends who caught it despite being double vaccinated? No hospitalizations I hope.
 

Wumminator

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Please tell me where the tin hat silliness is in my question? It was a genuine question and I didn't throw around any conspiracies.
can you answer some questions for me before we are expected to engage in this discussion.

a) why aren’t you vaccinated?
b) how many people do you believe have died through Corona?
 

Brwned

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The vaccine helps stop covid from being less severe if you do get it, but it doesn't stop transmission.

Government websites even state that you can still catch Covid after vaccination.
There’s a middle ground on each of those two ideas, though. Can you still catch covid? Absolutely. Are you less likely to? Unquestionably. Can you still transmit it? Definitely. Are you less likely to? For sure. The reduction in disease (which you believe) largely explains the relative reduction in transmission, too.

That’s if you believe the government and their scientists. They keep providing all of the evidence demonstrating it. If you don’t believe them, then you can’t really cite them as evidence of your own argument. You just have to stick to the anecdotes that represent a uniquely unlikely set of events.
 

Pogue Mahone

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That is not true though. Most of my friends are fully vaccinated and they still all caught covid over the Euro's. Every single one that caught covid and was vaccinated (7 in total) all gave their parents it and they are fully vaccinated.

It does get transmitted with or without the vaccine. The vaccine also doesn't stop covid from being on your hands and clothes. I caught covid from a fully vaccinated friend and he was actually worse than me even with 2 vaccines to my 0.

The vaccine helps stop covid from being less severe if you do get it, but it doesn't stop transmission.

Government websites even state that you can still catch Covid after vaccination.
Vaccines do reduce the chance of passing the virus on. Even if you ignore the likelihood that vaccinated people who catch covid are less infectious than non-vaccinated then we know for certain that they reduce the chance of catching covid, full stop. And there’s no better way to prevent transmission than stopping someone catching covid in the first place.

There’s an absolute shit-load of robust evidence to prove that everything I’ve said here is true. Anecdotal evidence from a handful of your friends doesn’t alter this fact. We all know stories of people smoking cigarettes into their 80s but that doesn’t make cigarettes any less bad for your health. That’s not how science works.

If you’re interested at all in understanding why it’s important to get vaccinated then please remember these facts. I suspect you’re not, though. So we’re all wasting our time trying to educate you.
 
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Superunknown

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So this is primarily a technical issue right now, and there is a working group setup to fix it. The UK needs to be able to access the data behind the EU QR code but GDPR makes it difficult. It could be done in a few weeks, however that doesn't account for the politicians getting involved as they are now beginning to do, slapping random restrictions on countries.

I'm in a similar position to you. My UK based brother in law is getting married in Spain in just over a month. I can go just fine as I live in Italy. I'm starting to think I might be the only one there.
Cheers for the reply. Here's hoping we hear something about this soon...

Hope it all works out for you! Even if there are compromises that have to be made, I hope the day goes well.
 

One Night Only

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I feel sorry for you @The holy trinity 68 , you'll get a lot of abuse and people here treating you like you're thick for asking a genuine question.

I'm in the same boat as you, don't really understand the whole vaccine thing.

It seems things are changing too often to get a real effectiveness of the vaccines anyway, I know loads who have been double jabbed and caught it too. Know a fair amount who have had neither jab and caught it aswell. Mrs has it ATM and is double jabbed and has a load of the symptoms, tight chest, hot flushes, can't smell or taste. A lad I know who has neither jab is just finishing his stint of having covid and he just lost his smell and taste.

Obviously that's only 2 people I can think of recently, could work other way round next time.

It's really difficult understanding the whole jab thing for anyone who doesn't want to read every article on it. Doesn't help the system still tries to send me miles away for mine and my doctor's don't appear to understand how phones work :lol:
 

decorativeed

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That is not true though. Most of my friends are fully vaccinated and they still all caught covid over the Euro's. Every single one that caught covid and was vaccinated (7 in total) all gave their parents it and they are fully vaccinated.

It does get transmitted with or without the vaccine. The vaccine also doesn't stop covid from being on your hands and clothes. I caught covid from a fully vaccinated friend and he was actually worse than me even with 2 vaccines to my 0.

The vaccine helps stop covid from being less severe if you do get it, but it doesn't stop transmission.

Government websites even state that you can still catch Covid after vaccination.
Have you considered the fact that it was most likely you - the one unvaccinated friend in your group of friends - who gave them all covid?
 

Penna

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@The holy trinity 68, if you need to see physical evidence just look at the death rates and how they've fallen. Earlier in the year hundreds of people were dying every day in the UK and other countries, but now it's so much lower in countries where the vaccination programme has progressed well. That's not coincidence, it's entirely because of the vaccines.

If you haven't had your jabs, I'd urge you to go and get them.
 

One Night Only

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@The holy trinity 68, if you need to see physical evidence just look at the death rates and how they've fallen. Earlier in the year hundreds of people were dying every day in the UK and other countries, but now it's so much lower in countries where the vaccination programme has progressed well. That's not coincidence, it's entirely because of the vaccines.

If you haven't had your jabs, I'd urge you to go and get them.
I think those numbers do speak for themselves, but isn't that because those most vulnerable have been vaccinated already? They'll still catch it but less likely to be hospitalised.

Whereas someone who is not in a danger group could catch it and not end up in hospital anyway even without the vaccine? With case numbers as they are with the amount being vaccinated, it doesn't really look to be doing much to stop the spread as they put it.

That's what I'm not understanding personally. The jabs are doing the grand some of feck all for a lot of people apart from making them bad for a couple of days, then letting them get the virus anyway? They could have got the virus without the jab, and not been ill after their jabs thus they've actually made themselves bad for an extra 2 days.

I know it's only a jab, but a lot of people who have had it seem right up their own arses, it's the new "I'm better than you look at me". I can fully understand why people want it, and why others don't. There are some rough stories, the type of "it'll never happen to me" but it could.

Well done to those who have had the jab.

End of the day it's a personal choice at the moment and I'm fine with people either way.
 

mitChley

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I think those numbers do speak for themselves, but isn't that because those most vulnerable have been vaccinated already? They'll still catch it but less likely to be hospitalised.

Whereas someone who is not in a danger group could catch it and not end up in hospital anyway even without the vaccine? With case numbers as they are with the amount being vaccinated, it doesn't really look to be doing much to stop the spread as they put it.

That's what I'm not understanding personally. The jabs are doing the grand some of feck all for a lot of people apart from making them bad for a couple of days, then letting them get the virus anyway? They could have got the virus without the jab, and not been ill after their jabs thus they've actually made themselves bad for an extra 2 days.

I know it's only a jab, but a lot of people who have had it seem right up their own arses, it's the new "I'm better than you look at me". I can fully understand why people want it, and why others don't. There are some rough stories, the type of "it'll never happen to me" but it could.

Well done to those who have had the jab.

End of the day it's a personal choice at the moment and I'm fine with people either way.
People who catch covid who have been vaccinated have a significantly (90%+) smaller chance of requiring hospitalisation than those without vaccines. If for example there is a 2% chance of a 28 year old ending up in hospital, that reduces it to 0.2% chance. Vaccines are certainly making a difference.

Plus vaccines reduce transmission, so if you're popping round to give your grandparent a visit the chances of you infecting them are reduced if you are also vaccinated. They are protected greatly by their vaccine, but you also having that vaccine reduces the chance of them getting it even further.

By you, or anyone, not being vaccinated, you increase the risk to me, a vaccinated person. It is a personal choice, but unlike the personal choice of a tattoo your choice effects others, and the more people that make that choice the more it allows Covid the opportunity to move through society.
 

One Night Only

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People who catch covid who have been vaccinated have a significantly (90%+) smaller chance of requiring hospitalisation than those without vaccines. If for example there is a 2% chance of a 28 year old ending up in hospital, that reduces it to 0.2% chance. Vaccines are certainly making a difference.

Plus vaccines reduce transmission, so if you're popping round to give your grandparent a visit the chances of you infecting them are reduced if you are also vaccinated. They are protected greatly by their vaccine, but you also having that vaccine reduces the chance of them getting it even further.

By you, or anyone, not being vaccinated, you increase the risk to me, a vaccinated person. It is a personal choice, but unlike the personal choice of a tattoo your choice effects others, and the more people that make that choice the more it allows Covid the opportunity to move through society.
I know someone who has a serious side effect to the vaccine, 34 year old, healthy lad. Transverse myelitis or something I think it was called. I can clearly see why people are still iffy with getting it in all honesty. I know there is a risk with every vaccine anyway but obviously the bad side effects of this get reported a lot more widely these days.

Does it really lower transmission? That's the part I don't get at all. If it did, I don't understand why the new cases are as high as they are with so many vaccinated? How much does it lower transmission?
 

mitChley

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I know someone who has a serious side effect to the vaccine, 34 year old, healthy lad. Transverse myelitis or something I think it was called. I can clearly see why people are still iffy with getting it in all honesty. I know there is a risk with every vaccine anyway but obviously the bad side effects of this get reported a lot more widely these days.

Does it really lower transmission? That's the part I don't get at all. If it did, I don't understand why the new cases are as high as they are with so many vaccinated? How much does it lower transmission?
There are certainly risks to the vaccine, and those risks are assessed and where needed actions taken. For example stopping AZ to under 40s, but right now you are at a higher risk of hospitalisation or death from covid than you are from a vaccine.

Regarding transmission, yes it does reduce it, I can't remember the exact numbers without googling and without wanting to sound rude you can do that yourself.
 

Penna

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@One Night Only, for things which affect whole populations you can't focus on individuals, you have to look at the big picture. Yes, each case is an individual person, but it's only when you see patterns emerging that you can draw conclusions and make policy decisions.

I had few side-effects from the vaccinations and there are loads of people like me. Others have felt rough for a few days and a tiny number have had serious side-effects. So, from a population viewpoint side-effects are not really an issue, as the vast majority of people have short-lived issues or no issues at all.

With the latest Delta variant, there's no such thing as "not being in a danger group". Fit, younger people are becoming seriously ill and even dying. The vaccine gives you the best chance of not getting seriously ill and not dying. You may still get Covid, but it's far less likely that you'll be one of the people gasping for breath in an intensive care unit. That in itself should be a big incentive to get vaccinated.

Earlier on the thread someone posted a link to an article from the US. Of all the people who died in the USA from Covid last month, over 99% were not vaccinated. That's the kind of evidence you need to help you make a decision.

It saddens me that people who live in a country where the vaccines are freely-available and easy to get are still hesitating. Every person who gets the vaccine is helping themselves and other people. This Covid is a public health catastrophe, and we have to all do what we can to mitigate the risk for everyone else.

edit - I should mention that I had a very serious reaction to a vaccination thirty years ago and I agonised about having this one - but I was OK.
 
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With the latest Delta variant, there's no such thing as "not being in a danger group". Fit, younger people are becoming seriously ill and even dying.
That's simply not true. The risk groups are still by far more likely to end up hospitalised, in ICU, or dead.

Thankfully the large uptake of the vaccine in many of these groups in many countries is doing exactly what it said on the tin.
 

Penna

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That's simply not true. The risk groups are still by far more likely to end up hospitalised, in ICU, or dead.

Thankfully the large uptake of the vaccine in many of these groups in many countries is doing exactly what it said on the tin.
I didn't say that the most at-risk are not the most at risk. I said in reponse to One Night Only that there are no "safe groups", which has been demonstrated by young, healthy people becoming seriously-ill and dying. It's not just ancients with lots of health conditions or super-obese diabetics.
 

golden_blunder

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I know someone who has a serious side effect to the vaccine, 34 year old, healthy lad. Transverse myelitis or something I think it was called. I can clearly see why people are still iffy with getting it in all honesty. I know there is a risk with every vaccine anyway but obviously the bad side effects of this get reported a lot more widely these days.

Does it really lower transmission? That's the part I don't get at all. If it did, I don't understand why the new cases are as high as they are with so many vaccinated? How much does it lower transmission?
Because most of the new cases are undoubtedly the Delta variant, which by all accounts is worse than the previous. Anyway I’m sure you know this
 

Rado_N

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That's simply not true. The risk groups are still by far more likely to end up hospitalised, in ICU, or dead.

Thankfully the large uptake of the vaccine in many of these groups in many countries is doing exactly what it said on the tin.
Her point was that “fit, younger people are becoming seriously ill and even dying” and there’s no such thing as a “safe group”; which is entirely true.
 
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Her point was that “fit, younger people are becoming seriously ill and even dying” and there’s no such thing as a “safe group”; which is entirely true.
Her point was that is no such thing as “not being in a danger group” and well, of course there is. Every single stat from every single country informs us of that, there are huge danger groups, and those not in those groups.
 

Rado_N

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Her point was that is no such thing as “not being in a danger group” and well, of course there is. Every single stat from every single country informs us of that, there are huge danger groups, and those not in those groups.
The point being made was that nobody is entirely safe, which however you dress it up remains true.