I'm really, really curious on what basis anyone would argue Donny is a better option than Pogba or Fred as an 8 at this stage. Unless it's the sort of reasoning that goes "We tried them and they weren't good enough and we didn't really try him yet so that's got to be better".
Are we a CDM short of being an elite team?
- Thread starter Bastian
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I mentioned it before but watching the Wanderers game; look how they moved as a unit defence and attack. Their manager has been there 3 games and changed their play straight away This could be coached into our team if we had the right coaches and/or manager. Our next window would be better served updating the coaches at least. Cheaper as well.
The need for a ST and RB are GROSSLY overstated. Unless Ronaldo flops like Alexis you can forget about us spending big money on a Haaland/Kane Ronaldo and one of those would be two extremely big egos on very high wages that want to play weekly you can't satisfy. Ronaldo has practically pushed forward a ST signing to this year. AWB despite his flaws is still one of our most important players and the best defensive RB ITL with Dalot here we can rest him and he'll only get better at 23 now playing with Varane over Lindelof and a natural creative RW in Sancho over a ST/Inside Forward in Greenwood.
I also think the fear of "replacements" for Matic and Mata who are 4th/5th choice players is over the top when Garner will be coming back from loan and Hannibal/Shoretire knocking on the door for first team football
I do agree we need a DM even in a year and we'll 100% get one. On Pogba I reckon Camavinga going to Madrid and us having a good season will make him extend
Hence the word 'could' my friend. Donny could be good there whereas we know the other player's limitations.
Unlike Fred, Fernandinho has more than a few brain cells and doesn’t boot the ball out of play every ten minutes. I’d be inclined to expect the 433 if we had a Fernandinho, but we don’t, primarily because we couldn’t be arsed to bring one in.
Does anyone think we will make a January signing then? Or are we going to stick with:
Fred
McTominay
Matic
VdB
As our CMs? I would include Pogba in that list, but he's far more effective in an advanced role
Fred
McTominay
Matic
VdB
As our CMs? I would include Pogba in that list, but he's far more effective in an advanced role
1st thing he should do is refuse to ever do business with Atletico again. We should have been given the chance to sign Saul first. By offering him instead to them they’ve proven themselves to be morally bankrupt.
I could see us getting someone on loan maybe. Only way we get someone permanently is if we're in a similar situation to January 2020 of poor form and a glaring hole that even The Glazers can't mask with PR
If you're criticizing him for that then I'm sorry but you don't know football. He played one of his best ever games. He put about 3 easy chances on a plate for Mbappe.
Yes, but the problem is that choosing an option simply because it's something more uncertain than another option you already know and aren't altogether happy with is fundamentally a very, very stupid thing to do. A basic fallacy, in fact.
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So we continue not knowing. That seems smart
I don't think we were all that serious about Saul tbh. Its possible Chelsea were more forthcoming with their interest while we just dallied about, which we have been known to do historically.
That might just explain why we didn't take up the offer earlier in the window now
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...d-leave-Atletico-Madrid-position-dispute.html
How about a 352 as now we've signed Varane? Tuchel transformed a leaky 433 Lampard's Chelsea into a fortress with his 352.
Lindelof Varane Maguire
AWB Pogba McT Shaw
Where in possession AWB ventures forward as a winger and Shaw moves into the midfield. Sancho/Greenwood would drift a bit into the middle while Rashford stay wide.
Lindelof Varane Maguire
AWB Pogba McT Shaw
Where in possession AWB ventures forward as a winger and Shaw moves into the midfield. Sancho/Greenwood would drift a bit into the middle while Rashford stay wide.
When you have the offensive firepower we have, you shouldn't put another CB into the team so even more attackers stay on the bench. Would our wingers be Wingback material, this effect would be reduced because we could take out one of the fullbacks but as we just sold the one, that might have worked, this door has closed.
Did SAF not do that, buy everything but CMs between 02 and 06 when it was the obvious gap.
Yeah or another midfield injury crisis like we saw in January 2020 with McTominay & Pogba
I havenot seen Ole try a 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 formation. Maybe is because we have so many wing players it will make them renderless.
I know football. Of course it’s not all on Pogba but as a midfielder he does bear some responsibility.Midfielders, top ones at any rate, control games.You should never lose when 2 up with 15 minutes left.
Donny van de Beek is 6ft, now strong, has GREAT football intelligence and is extremely press-resistant. He can't run around terrier-like a la Fred but why can't he be our Carrick-type CDM?
Maybe because he hasn't shown that kind of skillset yet? Too easy of an answer? I mean, I am all up for trying him again in a deeper role, but I personally am very skeptical about him being a big contributor in this position. He came to us as system player in a total foetball style. Short passes, positional play, movement without the ball, distances between players stay consistent, patient possession game. Donny excelled in being a player with a good feel for finding space to either be passed to or get on the end of something. He has also been a formidable striker of the ball. He has played deeper for Ajax. But when he excelled then often in a Thomas-Müller-type role as attacking multiplicator.
Can he play somewhere else on the pitch? Of course he can, Ronaldo would also do a job as fullback I guess. The question is, what do we get if we transform Donny into a slightly above average CM when he has the skills to excell in a posession based system like Bayern or Barcelona right now? We are very far away from such a system, we celebrate Bruno, Pogba, Rashford and Greenwood for fast attacks and quick transitions. Thats the opposite of the system Donny is used to. Plus you want him to change his position to be more allround. Donny will have to learn all the things connected to playing as a CM, tackling, intercepting, spacial awareness - is he capable of doing that? Maybe. On the top-level? Wouldn't bank on it.
Seems he got better and better for many people by not playing a lot. Which is always a warning sign. Lets see what Oles plan is for him. He seemed adamant to not let him go on loan or something. I hope there is a plan that isn't just hoping that DVB succeeds at becoming more like Matic, Fred or Pogba. As it is, we are already very top-heavy as a team, and we have to make use of the firepower while keeping the most balance we can. And the only way I can imagine DVB being a part of a balanced midfield is when Telles or Dalot are choosen to play left/right wing in front of Shaw/AWB. A pretty high price for virtually a non-entity in DVB.
Only thing I can think of is he is trying to convert DVB into a pure CM. And he wants Donny to fully acclimatised to the position and hold his own in closed door matches before throwing him on in the PL.
Do you still think we should try VDB as a DLP alongside Fred or McTominay? I think I remember you suggesting in the past, I am sorry if I got that wrong.
I would happily give it a go. Pogba is a big no in a midfield two and Matic moves as if he has a Zimmerframe. VDB has good movement and will always provide a good option for the CBs so we should be able to move the ball forward quicker
Well we will have to try him there now with McTominay out for some time. Matic is too slow and then we only have Fred. Rather see Pogba out wide left.
I haven't seen any particular great midfield work in the 3 games we've played so far, and yes even against Leeds.
To be accurate, whoever plays in central areas at United for me isn't anything close to a "playmaker", I think it's pretty clear our midfielders have strictly defined supporting roles. That's why I don't rate Pogba in there- it's a complete waste. He's the one needing support, and all his best attributes are choked.
Anyway, I see a decent midfielder in van de Beek. He is a bit rush with tackles, but overall I thought he did OK to good in all games he played there. It's in high positions where he struggles.
It's pretty clear the only functional midfield pairing we have is McFred, which will be even more visible with Ronaldo in the team. But with Fred being far from his best, I'd say we definitely need to give van de Beek more chances in midfield. Who to pair him with is a different matter, hopefully McTominay is back soon.
There is one thing that could work, in fact I think that it would definitely work but it's not the best use of the entire squad unles we rotate a lot.
------------------Ronaldo
----------------B.Fernandes
Pogba----Fred---TMac---Sancho
Shaw---Maguire-Varane--W.Bissaka
For the defense and midfield the reference is 2014-2016 Atletico Madrid, a relatively strict and narrow 4411 where Pogba and Sancho are the playmakers in the mold of Koke/Saul/Carrasco. Fred and McTominay are runners and enforcers their job is to disturb any ball carrier in the middle of the pitch, Bruno's role when we defend is to cover and compensate on the opposing wing of where the ball is because in that narrow system the midfield and defense slide toward the ball carrier which in practice means that the opposing wing isn't covered unless your attacking midfielder slides to that area, someone like Griezmann does that very well and Bruno could do it quite easily.
------------------Ronaldo
----------------B.Fernandes
Pogba----Fred---TMac---Sancho
Shaw---Maguire-Varane--W.Bissaka
For the defense and midfield the reference is 2014-2016 Atletico Madrid, a relatively strict and narrow 4411 where Pogba and Sancho are the playmakers in the mold of Koke/Saul/Carrasco. Fred and McTominay are runners and enforcers their job is to disturb any ball carrier in the middle of the pitch, Bruno's role when we defend is to cover and compensate on the opposing wing of where the ball is because in that narrow system the midfield and defense slide toward the ball carrier which in practice means that the opposing wing isn't covered unless your attacking midfielder slides to that area, someone like Griezmann does that very well and Bruno could do it quite easily.
Actually many of those characteristics you mention there is vital to be a good pivot player (keeping correct distance, off the ball movement, keeping posession and finding space).
Thing Donny is lacking there is simply just how to defend better and more aggressivly, and he need to build a relationship with the other pivot player (which is part of the reason why Fred works well with McT but not Matic/Pogba)
f**ck this
----------------------------------DDG--------------------------------------
-------------------Varane----------------Maguire--------------------
--AWB-------------------------------------------------------Shaw------
--------------------Bruno-----DVB------Pogba-----------------------
---Greenwood------------------------------------------Sancho-----
--------------------------Ronaldo/Cavani-----------------------------
-------------------Varane----------------Maguire--------------------
--AWB-------------------------------------------------------Shaw------
--------------------Bruno-----DVB------Pogba-----------------------
---Greenwood------------------------------------------Sancho-----
--------------------------Ronaldo/Cavani-----------------------------
I think Donny would be great at doing what Paul Scholes used to do. Bailing people out of trouble. Whenever somebody was under pressure they knew they could give it to Scholes to relieve themselves
I reckon Donny could be that guy for this team. I think we've seen enough of everyone else against the weaker teams to know that they're limited. Give Donny a go and let's see if he can be the main man in there. He's definitely the most press resistant of all our options. I'm not sure if he can run a game but we'll never know if he doesn't get a string of games to play the position.
Please let nobody say I'm saying he's as good as Scholes
I genuinely wouldn't have a problem with the team directly above. It's not like Fred is able to put counter attacks out but at least Donny is much better on the ball.
DVB is the only trump card we have left. In theory, his safe possession based style, one touch passing in tight areas can be well used in the centre. Hopefully we are just getting him up to speed in the defensive, physical and positional aspect of a deeper role. Otherwise, we need to cross our fingers til Jan. The other scenario is Pogba being deployed there for extended period.. which is a massive risk
I'll believe it when I see Jones on our match day squad again.
Jesus take the wheel...
We need a kante like player in midfield.. which maybe does not exist
The answer is Phil Jones
The question is which united player holds the record for longest time at the club while missing over half of all matches due to injury.
You get the feeling that things might still not fall in place if Ole does not find a solution for our midfield. He could not fix it with a transfer so he needs to find another solution
It's pretty obvious that another solution is McFred, he played them in his first game but McTominay injury obviously ruined it vs Southampton and Wolves. It's the best we got.
We won't play control and possession football most of the time with that midfield but if we want to utilise what we are currently have and still winning matches then we need to accept that we will not play total control all the time but instead going for counter attacking football. Rashford & Sancho are not our key players, our key players in attack are Bruno, Pogba, and Ronaldo. To get the best out of Pogba and Bruno, they both must play advanced to give them higher chances providing assists for Ronaldo and that means Pogba will need to play on the left most of the time against team that are not willing to just sit back. May be against Young Boys, Norwich, Newcastle, Watford, & Palace we can get away playing Pogba in midfield two but not against the others.
I agree...Donny Van De beek claims that he can play as a 6..In my view DVB deserves more chances than Fred...But Scott and Pogba should be our midfield 2..,