I'm halfway in between agreeing and disagreeing. I find myself defending Ole against overly harsh United fans but deep down I am unsure he will bring success and not sure if he can make the team greater than the sum of its parts or if we will continue to rely on moments from top players if that makes sense. Like I wonder what a top manager would do with these players sometimes.....
Criticism is fine (and encouraged) but there are some criticisms thrown at Ole that don't make any sense
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Ending seasons poorly is due to fatigue. We should see more rotation this year. People need to scrap the idea of a best 11, we should never play the same 11 twice as we will rarely play the same opponents twice.
The thing is, if you pose the questions that way, you've already answered them.
Most obviously, because you've already decided OGS isn't (and won't become) a top manager, and hence assume that if we had a different (and top) manager, the results would be better. If you think so, then there's really nothing left to discuss. But, I don't think you or anyone else actually has a good reason to think that, at this stage. OGS may well prove to be a top manager. His results so far certainly does not warrant any certainty that he won't. I think it's important to remember that, but the constant stream of negativity from people who've already decided that he isn't kind of chips away at that.
You can maybe talk about "making a team greater than the sum of its parts" if it really overperforms at a fundamentally different level to its squad, like say Sheffield United in 19/20. But is Pep making City greater than the sum of its parts, given how huge that sum is? And is that even a meaningful question, given that parts have been assembled over time exactly because they fit into the whole?
Most would say Chelsea, United and Liverpool had fairly comparable squads last season, except Liverpool's was a bit better to begin with, but was the hardest hit by multiple injuries in the same position. You can certainly say Chelsea was less than the sum of their parts under Lampard, but if you pro-rate Tuchel's record over a whole season, they would have finished two points ahead of United (while Liverpool finished five behind). Is there a big difference there in the extent to which the three managers managed to achieve teams that were better than the sum of their parts (considering that Liverpool was missing some quite key parts for most of the season)? I don't think so.
ALL teams who do well rely on "moments from top players", and win important games where they might have lost. How many times have you seen Mo Salah or Sergio Aguero clinch a narrow win through an extraordinary finish? Did those come simply as a result of Klopp's or Pep's systems?
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Soon as Ole wins something the worse aspects of criticism of him will go back in the box, but being manager at Manchester United, means you wont please everyone, all of the time.
We are progressing and Ole seems clear about where he wants to go, but he does at times make a wrong call; however the main criticism is of getting to four semi's and a final and not coming out victorious, that has to change, and you can be sure Ole knows it.
We are progressing and Ole seems clear about where he wants to go, but he does at times make a wrong call; however the main criticism is of getting to four semi's and a final and not coming out victorious, that has to change, and you can be sure Ole knows it.
Can't resist pointing one further thing - the same people complaining that OGS doesn't have clear system and style of play are largely also the ones demanding immediate results.
However, when a manager takes over a squad that is not suited to the way he wants to play, these are pretty much mutually exclusive expectations.
Either he can stick to the preferred style of play regardless, in which case immediate results will suffer. This is what is going on with Arsenal currently. Or, he can take a more pragmatic approach and adjust the style to the players available, trying instead to evolve the system and style gradually as the squad develops and changes. It's probably safe to say that OGS has been a good deal more in this direction than Arteta has.
But people, you can't have it both ways at once.
However, when a manager takes over a squad that is not suited to the way he wants to play, these are pretty much mutually exclusive expectations.
Either he can stick to the preferred style of play regardless, in which case immediate results will suffer. This is what is going on with Arsenal currently. Or, he can take a more pragmatic approach and adjust the style to the players available, trying instead to evolve the system and style gradually as the squad develops and changes. It's probably safe to say that OGS has been a good deal more in this direction than Arteta has.
But people, you can't have it both ways at once.
Imo it's safe to say he's a good manager. Your question is actually is he a great manager. Silverwares make a good manager become a great one.
I can't call him a top manager as yet as what are his top manager accomplishments? I hope that he can compete with the best and challenge for major honours basically so its a matter of wait and see. No one knows if he can or can't as of yet. you never know.
regarding the 2nd part is more around performances. Do City often play so badly and scrape results or do they tend to outplay their opp mostly? Also when one or two players come out and are replaced, is the drop off significant? I recall city winning without KDB for large stretches of 2 titles campaigns as well as with no striker last season so I would say they have a formula that continues with or without key players and is not super reliant on any one individual bar maybe CB. Liverpool 2019 looked unbeatable and I didn't feel they were scraping by with each win. I would say for large periods of last season we got results but could easily have dropped points in too many games as we tend to play well for brief periods of the 90. It was an assessment I noticed because every game felt uncomfortable and uneasy like points would be dropped and Neville echoed my sentiments that we aren't a team that particularly plays the the match too well but we will grab a goal from a Bruno pen or a PP through ball to Martial (or whoever) so a brief moment of quality will get us over the line.
Which areas of our team played well last season for the most part in your assessment? Defensive unit conceded more than Arsenal, midfield was moaned about most of the season and we seem to constantly need significant upgrade. Martial did nout, Cavani popped up end of season, as did Greenwood. Rashford did numbers but from Jan he couldn't sprint. I would say not many of our departments/units performed for large parts of the campaign but again we got results. I don't know if you recall in 2013 we had very uncomfortable matches mostly but RVP was on a mad one.
Yeah he is a good manager. You can't consistently finish in CL places without being one.
This is exactly where I am too. And it's a confusing place to be.
I don't get this comment. He's been in charge for over 150 competitive games, I don't think expecting results at this point can be said to be demanding immediate results. How long do you anticipate it taking to develop a clear style of play?
I think the criticism regarding his style of play is pretty well founded, as definitely we don't have a style when in possession.
He had two seasons and quite a few windows to sort his team out. This season the real criticism will come out.
He had two seasons and quite a few windows to sort his team out. This season the real criticism will come out.
But again it's not a season in the case if the midfield. It's been a problem for multiple seasons...and the profile of midfielder we'd be looking for is someone capable of doing the same job as Fred/Mctominay or better. Or arguably even just someone with more legs in them than Matic.
This isn't a profile of player where you are extremely limited on options or would have to spend a vast fortune. Signing a top level striker is much more of a challenge for example and we've done that two years in a row.
There are always reasons for everything and why things do or don't happen, but at this point it's entirely fair to criticise the situation not being addressed imo. And it's also fair to assume it's not seen as a major concern or priority when the club can spend £80m on a teenager or just click it's fingers and sign Ronaldo. As much as the Glazers are criticised, investment is clearly not the excuse.
I reckon you're right that in the Wolves game a lack of sharpness was part of the issue, but I also don't think more match sharpness would do much to stop Traore mowing through a one man midfield of Fred over and over.
And the problems at Southampton the week before are typically characteristic of games we play Matic in, regardless of the stage of the season.
I worry it could be what holds us back this season in the end
The first 3 games are a preview of the season to come.
The Varane signing is head and shoulders above the other two.
But not to address the midfield is pure negligence.
This had to have been a priority from what we saw well before the previous season ended.
We also have the additional handicap of a manager who makes soft decisions. Who is not ruthless enough and sadly at times unable to think on his feet.
The way we went out of the FA Cup, CL and losing the EL stand out but I'm sure there are many other games.
McT
Fred
Matic
That is scary. For a team that has title ambitions?
We currently have five CBs.
Varane
Maguire
Lindeloff
Bailly
Jones
Why I suggested Lindeloff may be used as a CDM. If so it would be an option. But still risky. Unless Ole had worked with him on it.
In any case Chelsea have been turned into the team to beat by Tuchel. Even when a man down against Liverpool, they were in total control.
The Varane signing is head and shoulders above the other two.
But not to address the midfield is pure negligence.
This had to have been a priority from what we saw well before the previous season ended.
We also have the additional handicap of a manager who makes soft decisions. Who is not ruthless enough and sadly at times unable to think on his feet.
The way we went out of the FA Cup, CL and losing the EL stand out but I'm sure there are many other games.
McT
Fred
Matic
That is scary. For a team that has title ambitions?
We currently have five CBs.
Varane
Maguire
Lindeloff
Bailly
Jones
Why I suggested Lindeloff may be used as a CDM. If so it would be an option. But still risky. Unless Ole had worked with him on it.
In any case Chelsea have been turned into the team to beat by Tuchel. Even when a man down against Liverpool, they were in total control.
I understand the concern. You may well end up being right. Ole has pretty much built a whole new team now in a relatively short space of time and I'd wager heavily that, Haaland aside, the majority of our spending over the next 2 or 3 windows will be on the midfield.
Without Sancho we are a Greenwood injury away from being screwed on the right, and without Varane we are one injury from fielding Bailly regularly. These are IMO equally concerning situations to what we are faced with in midfield, and we made exactly the right signings to address that.
There isn't really a standout option to do that with the midfield at the moment. I think this club are a little scarred by what happened under LVG and Jose, and perhaps a little too reluctant to take a punt on a player. Ability is easy to identify. Impact on a dressing room is not, and we've excelled in that department under this mgmt team.
Really though, who knows. We're all guessing, but I don't think anyone outside of the club could ever convince me that these guys aren't seeing the things we all are and have a plan for it.
I bet people were saying that last season too, but in fact those 3 games ended up being a very clear outlier compared to the majority of our performances. It's obvious that this team are finding their feet physically
I think the ultimate plan is for Rice (or whoever comes in) and McTominay to be first choice and Garner to take over Matic's current role in the squad and develop further. The problem is we have Pogba and Bruno and I don't think there's a DM alive who can handle the spaces that would be left behind by those two in a midfield three.
Midfield is probably the hardest position to recruit for. A good 6 is like gold dust, and there are so many different ways the role can be played.
I do think a lot of the wailing and gnashing of teeth is a bit over the top and in reaction to two games where we were without one of our first choice players there. Once McTominay is back we'll see a better Utd. Equally, I do understand those who say if it's so important why didn't they buy someone but equally if the opportunity arose that we could sign Varane at an amazing price and we didn't, I'd be equally ruing our timing.
It's a gamble going into this season with the midfield options we have, most definitely, but when I cast my mind back to when we went into the 2019/20 season with Pereira and Lingard as our creative options and no replacement for our £75m striker, suddenly that risk doesn't seem so big after all.
At the end of the day, we had 3 gaping holes in the squad. We filled two of them and will be prioritising the 3rd (along with the unsaid 4th) next summer. In addition, we also got the bonus of Ronaldo signing who will be as cast iron a guarantee of goals as you could possibly get. It's still been a good summer.
The Varane signing I'm fully with you on. Centreback would have been No1 on the list for me as I think it's cost us repeatedly over 2 years now...and Varane is the best centreback any team could realistically have signed this summer imo.
The thing with taking a punt is that this is exactly what spending so much on Sancho is. He is nowhere near a finished product and completely unproven in the PL, or in relation to dealing with the pressure at a club like United. Long term he could be a fantastic signing, but he could also struggle in a similar way to other players we've signed from Dortmund. I obviously hope he does well, but I think even if he does fantastically its somewhat unrealistic to expect him to set the right wing alight this season. I also worry people will have unrealistic expectations of him. He gets talked about as if he already is one of the best players in the world, and he's never going to live up to that. I think patience is going to be needed and it'll be Greenwood providing a majority of the end product from the right, for now at least.
We'll just have to see with the midfield but I honestly can't see it not being a problem. It's just whether we can be good enough to be successful in spite of it.
I get what you're saying about how it's difficult to see how people within the club can't see what the average fan can...but in some ways it must be harder to see when you are watching players in training every day and have personal relationships and opinions on them.
I just dont see that being possible. We watch a game, talk about it a bit and get on with our lives. The club will be dissecting every moment and key incident. Every passage of play. From Ole down to the analysts we've never heard of. It would blow my mind to have to accept that they are too stupid to see what we see, so if I'm wrong about that I'd prefer to live in blissful ignorance.
I dont see Sancho being anything other than a massive player for us. I watched him at Dortmund a ton. He's got everything. Yes it's a different league with a slightly different level of intensity, but he's too good not to succeed here.
Philips and Rice want CL football.
They should be 'gettable' next season.
They should be 'gettable' next season.
You say this in a season when we set a record for comeback wins? If they were outliers we wouldn't have gone down in so many games.
But we came back and dominated the ball a lot. In fact most of the times we conceded early it was usually against the balance of play and down to a mistake by Lindelof.
Fantastic post. I see us going in such a positive direction right now. It's nice to read a post that is so well thought out.
100x this. It cant be "individual brilliance" one game and then "the manager is a fool" if we play like shit the next game
Don’t want to get into the OGS in / out argument as I love the man and he is a legend and one of my favorite players ever, but I have to say this is a reductive argument. If the players are brilliant then surely the aim is consistent performances and results. Anything else falls squarely on the manager.
Of course you will have some fans going overboard and making ridiculous claims with every bad result, but irrational arguments cannot be used to rationalize performances or results or the lack thereof. That is just as bad as the handbags.
The mood swings in this place really are extreme in a bizarre way I found nowhere else.
After a win it's all glory and we are at the dawn of a bright future, after a loss it's all doom and we should get rid of anyone that might be responsible.
I think key to understanding this is, that it's not the same people posting. The doomsayers and the believers are quite a different crowd, and mutually one side is having tail wind, while the other is muted. While balanced oppinions are in disadvantage in both cases and therefore also less motivated to waste their time with these extremist oppinions.
After a win it's all glory and we are at the dawn of a bright future, after a loss it's all doom and we should get rid of anyone that might be responsible.
I think key to understanding this is, that it's not the same people posting. The doomsayers and the believers are quite a different crowd, and mutually one side is having tail wind, while the other is muted. While balanced oppinions are in disadvantage in both cases and therefore also less motivated to waste their time with these extremist oppinions.
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But its a complete chicken and egg scenario which you can twist whichever way suits you. If we look at the long perspective (post lockdown for example) the results have largely been consistent. I agree that we have some ways to go in getting more consitent performances, as we can fluktuate from brilliant to shit a bit to often, but rememeber that this is a team who is still finding its bearings.
Most of the starting XI are either quite young, or have been brought here not to long ago so its no wonder they are going to be inconsistent, both on an individual and a collective level.
Also, half the job (more than half imo) for a manager is actually building a team that is capable of competing. Yes, hes been able to spend a lot of money, but if my numbers are right hes only spent about 15 million more (net) than what Jose did, which is even less if you account for inflation. If you think the team is brilliant, then you also have to admit hes done half the job decently.
Why not? I like Ole and think he's done quite well (though have doubts about whether he's the person to take us to the next level) but surely a team can have a poor coach and win games due to individual brilliance.
Because its next to impossible impossible to draw the line about what is coaching/tactics/man mangament and what is a players individual talent. For example claiming that Greenwoods goal vs Wolves was all him is absurd. Its a team game after all and its not like he took the ball from his own half and banged it in
At the same time, we had several shit performances vs Wolves. Fred, Maguire and Sancho the worst ones. Does that mean they are shit? Because you cant be shit one week and then brilliant the next one (well you can) but its not like their basic footballing talent swings wildly from week to week
I am not really sure what you're saying here. There have been quite a few coaches over the years that have relied on a few players' stardust to see them over the line. Mourinho is one example (though he was also a great coach too). I disagree that it's next to impossible to draw the line between coaching/tactics and a player's individual talent. Sure, coaching can enhance it but it's also often fairly clear when a manager doesn't have a viable system. Look at Tim Sherwood at spurs. Won some games but didn't have a clue...had a couple of players that dragged them over the line.
Surely you can’t watch our consistently disjointed midfield and movement and not ask questions about what the coaches are doing on the training ground. Especially with Michael Carrick sat next OGS.
This is my only real problem with Ole and his coaching team. I don’t expect peak Ajax or Barca tiki-taka. But it is inexcusable to see players all but running into each other occupying the same spaces in midfield, not showing for the ball properly and basically playing as if they’ve never kicked at a ball at one another. It’s happened so many times.
So yes, when a 50-50 ball cannons out to our central defender who plays a tidy ball to our young starlet on the wing who then goes on to score a goal he had no business scoring fans will quite rightly cite individual brilliance rather than tactical nous. It’s not unreasonable. It’s perfectly reasonable in fact.
It is an issue. It can’t be denied. I love OGS and the direction he has taken the squad the past couple of years. But this issue has to be sorted and cannot be explained or rationalized away. Because that is every bit as bad as laying in wait to pounce on every bad performance or dropped point as if it’s the end of the world.
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Not just Ole. But pretty much all of the squad.
And who is to judge what makes sense and what does not.
This is especially evident in the match day threads.
But surely that is what this type of forum is all about.
Despite my age, I have learnt a great deal about what it is to be a Manchester United supporter.
A huge club with an even bigger fan base from all over the world.
And each one of us has a slightly different view of things.
Sense or no sense, we all have a common purpose. To see our club right at the top of football.
And who is to judge what makes sense and what does not.
This is especially evident in the match day threads.
But surely that is what this type of forum is all about.
Despite my age, I have learnt a great deal about what it is to be a Manchester United supporter.
A huge club with an even bigger fan base from all over the world.
And each one of us has a slightly different view of things.
Sense or no sense, we all have a common purpose. To see our club right at the top of football.
The only thing that doesn't make sense is how some people would go to the end of the Earth to defend Ole for the job despite all the evidence to the contrary. This reminds me of the dark Moyesy season. It was the same thing then, it is the same thing now, only Ole has at least done something for the club (as a player, but still) to deserve it. The facts are simple - if we do not challenge this season, he has to go. Or at least win the CL. The squad is full of world class players in almost every position. Yes, we have weak links, but so does every other team in existence. For a team to be stacked in EVERY position with class players would mean it would be one of history's greatest like United's Treble, Sacchi's Milan, Pep's Barcelon, etc, and that's not easily accomplishable.
Here's the main problem with Ole that I have - in 3 seasons with United he has done nothing to suggest he has a style or a form he wants to implement and it shows - we're still winning all of our games not because we play amazingly, but simply on individual brilliance because we have class players that can produce something at any given moment. Our passing is shit, our team cohesion is nowhere to be found, players run around headless chickens, there's no real system of play that you can discern. Pep, wherever he goes, you have a system and a style you can immediately notice he is trying to implement. How successful it is, is another matter, but you can clearly see it. This is how Tuchel transformed an obvious shit team of Chelsea (everyone claimed it to be so) into a CL winning one. Why can't we do the same? It's not the players, that's for sure. On paper our squad is easily up there with City and honestly I'd even say it is better than City's. So what is it? Why are we still struggling in all of our matches, still fumbling passes left and right, still look disoriented in attack and defense? Well, the obvious reason would be the coaching.
This is why the Wolves game pissed me off so much. It's not that we were unlucky not to win (thankfully we won), it's because they simply battered and outplayed us like we were a second division team. With SAF, if anyone remembers, we always dominated teams. Even when we lost. Shit happens in football, sometimes a plucky goal comes, sometimes no matter what you do, you can't seem to score, but one thing is for certain - we never allowed to be embarrassed. Or if we did and I can't remember, it was an off-game. With Ole, it's kinda the opposite - even when we win, we win so unconvincingly that it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I want to see other teams be scared of United, just the way it was used to be, not laugh at us like we're plucky underdogs.
And if Ole can't deliver that this season with the squad he has assembled. And yes, he has been very good at the transfer market, then he has to go and give it to someone else that can. Because we can't wait 20 years for another title win, this club's revenue is driven by its success and the more it takes to achieve said success, the more we lose. Next season we're losing Pogba by the look of things because of it. So the best way to remedy this is bring Zidane in, give him everything he wants and we're surely goin to go back to the top. Might even keep Pogba in. Anything else is simply reliance on a miracle.
And I feckign hate this comparison with SAF. Just because SAF did it, doesn't mean anyone can do it. For one, SAF took a team in a much worse position with much less resources than Ole has. Second, SAF actually had a CV that would shame Mourinho and Guaridola. The stuff he did with Mireen and Aberdeen were nothing short of a miracle, so you knew this guy could deliver. We know nothing about Ole. If we want to make a comparison , the most apt would be with Klopp. Would I be willing to give Klopp time instead of Ole? Hell yes, because you know of his success at Dortmund and Mainz. This club can't be run on sentimentality, it has to be run on pure and brutal pragmatism. It's why Chelsea, City, Real are so successful and why we are not. We no longer have the GOAT manager luxury to bail us out with title wins by playing Tom Cleverley and Wellbeck, we are right back down with the mortals and have to rely on the same tactics as other teams do.
Here's the main problem with Ole that I have - in 3 seasons with United he has done nothing to suggest he has a style or a form he wants to implement and it shows - we're still winning all of our games not because we play amazingly, but simply on individual brilliance because we have class players that can produce something at any given moment. Our passing is shit, our team cohesion is nowhere to be found, players run around headless chickens, there's no real system of play that you can discern. Pep, wherever he goes, you have a system and a style you can immediately notice he is trying to implement. How successful it is, is another matter, but you can clearly see it. This is how Tuchel transformed an obvious shit team of Chelsea (everyone claimed it to be so) into a CL winning one. Why can't we do the same? It's not the players, that's for sure. On paper our squad is easily up there with City and honestly I'd even say it is better than City's. So what is it? Why are we still struggling in all of our matches, still fumbling passes left and right, still look disoriented in attack and defense? Well, the obvious reason would be the coaching.
This is why the Wolves game pissed me off so much. It's not that we were unlucky not to win (thankfully we won), it's because they simply battered and outplayed us like we were a second division team. With SAF, if anyone remembers, we always dominated teams. Even when we lost. Shit happens in football, sometimes a plucky goal comes, sometimes no matter what you do, you can't seem to score, but one thing is for certain - we never allowed to be embarrassed. Or if we did and I can't remember, it was an off-game. With Ole, it's kinda the opposite - even when we win, we win so unconvincingly that it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I want to see other teams be scared of United, just the way it was used to be, not laugh at us like we're plucky underdogs.
And if Ole can't deliver that this season with the squad he has assembled. And yes, he has been very good at the transfer market, then he has to go and give it to someone else that can. Because we can't wait 20 years for another title win, this club's revenue is driven by its success and the more it takes to achieve said success, the more we lose. Next season we're losing Pogba by the look of things because of it. So the best way to remedy this is bring Zidane in, give him everything he wants and we're surely goin to go back to the top. Might even keep Pogba in. Anything else is simply reliance on a miracle.
And I feckign hate this comparison with SAF. Just because SAF did it, doesn't mean anyone can do it. For one, SAF took a team in a much worse position with much less resources than Ole has. Second, SAF actually had a CV that would shame Mourinho and Guaridola. The stuff he did with Mireen and Aberdeen were nothing short of a miracle, so you knew this guy could deliver. We know nothing about Ole. If we want to make a comparison , the most apt would be with Klopp. Would I be willing to give Klopp time instead of Ole? Hell yes, because you know of his success at Dortmund and Mainz. This club can't be run on sentimentality, it has to be run on pure and brutal pragmatism. It's why Chelsea, City, Real are so successful and why we are not. We no longer have the GOAT manager luxury to bail us out with title wins by playing Tom Cleverley and Wellbeck, we are right back down with the mortals and have to rely on the same tactics as other teams do.
Sums up my feelings nicely too.
This poster deserves promotion.
If this is true (and it only in The Sun), then I'm afraid Ole really is deluded:
- Ole Gunnar Solskjaer has told his Manchester United stars they are better than the club's heroes of '99
I think over the years the people in support of Ole has had to defend him because he's not really underperformed with the squad he has had to work with. Since Ole came expectations have been increasing as the squad improved, more money spent. I think now we've reached a point where most people whether Ole Out or Ole In, their expectations of Ole this season align.
Yes, but it's not like those demands came into being 5 minutes ago. They've been there more or less since the beginning. I guess I particularly had in mind last season, when all of that was a pretty clear issue. It's the essence, for example, of the reliance on McFred in the midfield: Best current option if we want points, but not really in line with how OGS would like the playing style to be, judging from both what he's said about that and from previous iterations of the team.
Not sure we're still quite there yet in terms of having the necessary personnel to play the way we want, but maybe we are. At least we should be much closer. There's still that midfield though...
I don’t think you need 11 first team players of your own choosing and over 150 games in charge before you impose your preferred style of play on a team. Why is that Pep, Tuchel, Klopp and Conte managed to get their teams playing in a clear and distinct style within 15 games while Ole hasn’t done so after 10x the time?
Have you even seen Pep and Klopp's transfers?
I can't comment on Tuchel, he definitely imposed a much more defensive style on Chelsea that put them on the right track, we're yet to see how that will work out long-term. But, if we are trying to be fair, you should also consider how many new players Chelsea bought last summer, none of which you would say were an unknown quality, right?
As for Conte, he has a similar style to Mourinho to squeeze the players and then leave the team drained and in need for a re-build.
We’re specifically talking about how long it took for those managers to get their playing style imposed, not the overall picture of how they did long term.