Does Jesse deserve to start?

Pronewbie

Peep
Joined
May 17, 2004
Messages
6,655
Location
In front of My Computer
It's great to have players like Lingard in the team to rest the first time in cup ties and against poorer opposition. Fergie used to have an embarrassment of riches when his teams peaked.

He should be able to start 10 - 20 games for us, depending on how deep we go in the cup competitions.
 

NinjaZombie

Punched the air when Liverpool beat City
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
10,139
I swear some people have short term memories. Guy scores twice against Andorra and suddenly he's deemed to be good enough..

He's had years to prove his worth. He was even a starter for a decent amount of time but time and time again he's not up to the standards the club should be setting.

The occasional pisstake against Andorran semi pros and turning out for West Ham is his level.

If he were earning much less than what we've been stupid enough to pay him, we'd have been able to find him another club.
 

arnie_ni

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
15,197
Of course he does, and no one could argue otherwise. But you just can't fit him in ahead of other people regardless of his form and its why he should have left.
 

fatboy

Full Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2004
Messages
3,744
He earned his last contract by breaking into the England squad on merit. Its clear that he was having issues after and his form and confidence fell off a cliff. Fortunately (or not) he seems to be coming back to form pretty strongly.

He's the most natural like for like backup to Bruno at this time, I think it's worth taking a bit more time to figure out if this is a real resurgence or a temporary uptick in form, rather than just writing him off completely.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,625
Lingard plays as RW and as a no 10. We have Bruno, Sancho, Greenwood eyeing for a first team place there. Meanwhile Pogba, VDB, Ronaldo and Rashford can play there as well while Elanga, Diallo and Mejbri are emerging talent with huge potential. So no
 

RooneyLegend

New Member
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
12,963
Yes, its unhealthy to have Bruno playing as much even when he's playing terrible football. However give Lingard away from the wings and only really play him when we have playmakers atleast on one wing. His movement and decision making is really impressive.
 

Carl

has permanently erect nipples
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
45,359
I like Jesse and I'm glad he stayed. One of the problems though is that his West Ham form (and his midweek goals) came from playing in the #10, and there's no chance of him displaying Bruno. To get him into the team means pushing him out wide, which we know isn't a productive use of him.

I'm really hoping that Ole will learn to not overplay Bruno this season, which should give Jesse plenty opportunities in the 10. I'd certainly prefer to play Lingard there than the likes of Mata or DVB.
 

MartinRed

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 30, 2016
Messages
203
If the game is going well for us he should be Introduced around 70th minute I would also like to see Van De Beek if the game is going alright for us.
 

DRJosh

Full Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
2,887
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Supports
United minus the Glazers
What does Jesse offer us based on his skill set? I’ve not watched him enough to know what his unique attributes are. Or maybe I just blocked him out. Does he have any? Daniel James had pace
 

stevoc

Full Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
20,126
It's great to have players like Lingard in the team to rest the first time in cup ties and against poorer opposition. Fergie used to have an embarrassment of riches when his teams peaked.

He should be able to start 10 - 20 games for us, depending on how deep we go in the cup competitions.
In which position and ahead of whom?
 

Tom Cato

Godt nyttår!
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
7,575
I swear some people have short term memories. Guy scores twice against Andorra and suddenly he's deemed to be good enough..

He's had years to prove his worth. He was even a starter for a decent amount of time but time and time again he's not up to the standards the club should be setting.

The occasional pisstake against Andorran semi pros and turning out for West Ham is his level.

If he were earning much less than what we've been stupid enough to pay him, we'd have been able to find him another club.

Friend, I remember another player who was deemed unfit for service, and returned to his club to become a very good player for them. Victor Moses, who curiously also went on loan to West Ham, returned to Chelsea and managed to become a very important player for the Chelsea side of 2016 onwards. In his loan spell at West Ham Jesse Lingard not only found form, but managed to get voted Premier League Player of the month for April 2021. He didn't just play well, he outplayed everyone.

Under our pre-season he's been one of the best players on the pitch during the games we've had, including scoring goals, creating changces for teammates and one particular strike that probably dented the crossbar. I know that you're going to use the opposition as an argument for why this is stupid to mention like some kind of gloryholechallenge you just set a new speedrecord at, but you can only play the opposition in front of you. By the metric of If you work hard, you will earn your opportunities he's more than earned a shot at making his way back into the team.

Can he start a game was the he question OP stated, not if he can be a regular starter. Does Jesse start ahead of Bruno or Pogba? Of course not. That's how ridiculously high that bar is. Does that mean he can't be a useful player?

Knowledge is a good thing to have. Manchester United is a significantly better team than West Ham. With the right opposition or stage of game (Opponent chasing goals if they're under) Jesse can be an incredibly useful player. West Ham enjoy what Manchester United doesn't: Teams playing open. He's been good for West Ham because they're afforded more space than a team as top heavy as Manchster United. Jesse isn't the guy for low blocking opposition but he's certainly useful for situations where we can expect a lot of counter attacking.

You might want to know that Jesse Lingard earns £75,000 weekly. That's 4th lowest of all senior squad members. If you're salty that Jesse earns more money than you for being worse at everything than you, that's fine, I get it, you're great. But if you take into account that players are generally paid on a host of metrics that primarily boils down to where you sit in the hierarchy or where you are in your career, you find that Jesse earns the same wage as Phil Jones and Mason Greenwood. Jones and Lingard are senior players with 1 big contract left in their careers, this is their peak income in the Manchester United wage structure. It's also one of the smallest contracts in the senior squad structure.

On the surface, Jesse's contract is no problem for West Ham. They pay Michael Antonio the same wage as Jesse currently makes, at 31 years of age and a lesser overall contribution than what Jesse contributed at West Ham, the club was more than willing to match the contract.

Understandably, the "problem" with moving Jesse along, is that Jesse Lingard has a contract with Manchester United and is within his right to stay and try to earn his way into the team, an option he chose for himself. He rejected West Ham and chose Manchester United. Now, maybe that will ultimately prove to be the wrong career move, but for a player who's been open with mental and family struggles, it's hard not to root for a guy who's been working so hard and achieved so much over the last year, that you at least want to allow him the same opportunity as every other squad member in the club has: The right to earn your opportunity to play.

In 1998, Manchester United wanted to sell another squad player surplus to requirements: Ole Gunnar Solskjær. The club had accepted an offer for £5.5million for Tottenham. Ole Gunnar Solskjær was 26 years old.

“The gaffer called me into his office and said: ‘I don’t really want to sell you because if you stay here you’ll play enough football,'” “That was enough for me. I didn’t want to go; my agent did. He said he had never met a person as stubborn as me. But I was right. I normally am!”

“The manager deserves the credit for all the success I have had. That was just one example of the kind of manager he is.

“There will be a lot of Sir Alex Ferguson I will take into management. He has transformed me into the professional I have been. He has drip fed things into me all the time.”


A stubborn manager keeps a player at the club because he believes he can make something of himself. History does enjoy repeating itself.
 

lsd

The Oracle
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
10,839
He should be starting every game for us. Martial should be way behind Lingard in the pecking order.

I would even give him a run out as a centre midfielder to see how he plays
 

drdoityourself

Full Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
2,392
It´s weird to call a homegrown player a bad fit for the club but that's what he is. His movement is all in front of the defense, when Bruno has shown what runs behind can do. His passing is short and again in front of the defense, when Bruno has shown what a little bit of bravery in passing can do. Greenwood has shown how blunt he has been on the wings as well.

His West Ham form has shown he has his uses, but I don't really see the gamescript at United that fits him. A more open game and counter attacks bring out the best in him, the usual midtable clash if you will.

He's had so many chances here and the team just visibly lacked in the areas he occupied. He should have moved on and should be the last option from now on.
 

markhughes

Full Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2016
Messages
867
Location
Sheffield, England
I'd have him over Martial but behind everyone else most likely. A few cup games would be good and see how he does, he can work his way back potentially but there are a lot of players ahead of him.
 

nokoya

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
614
Location
Taiwan
No, he has been there for so long time and has nothing to prove anymore. We've got the more excited youngster than JLingz.
 

Glorio

Full Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
4,549
I mean the next option should probably be Pogba not Lingard
Yeah you can move him central, and pull in the more natural wide players, but if Pogba's running the game from LW as he tends to do most times though, you don't want to mess with that, do you?

Why make two changes for one problem?
 

Bastian

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
18,539
Supports
Mejbri
Is this for real? There are top level players who will be left out of our first XI. The question is, does he deserve to play ahead of young players who represent our future, to which my answer would be no. He may come in handy here and there from the bench, mostly for his work rate though.
 

Pronewbie

Peep
Joined
May 17, 2004
Messages
6,655
Location
In front of My Computer
In which position and ahead of whom?
Ole seems to trust him to make a difference in the attacking roles. He is likely to be one of the more experienced heads in our make-shift teams.

I really want us to rest our key players more. Our drop-off since Ole took over have been horrible to watch. Don’t forget injuries to key players too.
 

NinjaZombie

Punched the air when Liverpool beat City
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
10,139
Friend, I remember another player who was deemed unfit for service, and returned to his club to become a very good player for them. Victor Moses, who curiously also went on loan to West Ham, returned to Chelsea and managed to become a very important player for the Chelsea side of 2016 onwards. In his loan spell at West Ham Jesse Lingard not only found form, but managed to get voted Premier League Player of the month for April 2021. He didn't just play well, he outplayed everyone.

Under our pre-season he's been one of the best players on the pitch during the games we've had, including scoring goals, creating changces for teammates and one particular strike that probably dented the crossbar. I know that you're going to use the opposition as an argument for why this is stupid to mention like some kind of gloryholechallenge you just set a new speedrecord at, but you can only play the opposition in front of you. By the metric of If you work hard, you will earn your opportunities he's more than earned a shot at making his way back into the team.

Can he start a game was the he question OP stated, not if he can be a regular starter. Does Jesse start ahead of Bruno or Pogba? Of course not. That's how ridiculously high that bar is. Does that mean he can't be a useful player?

Knowledge is a good thing to have. Manchester United is a significantly better team than West Ham. With the right opposition or stage of game (Opponent chasing goals if they're under) Jesse can be an incredibly useful player. West Ham enjoy what Manchester United doesn't: Teams playing open. He's been good for West Ham because they're afforded more space than a team as top heavy as Manchster United. Jesse isn't the guy for low blocking opposition but he's certainly useful for situations where we can expect a lot of counter attacking.

You might want to know that Jesse Lingard earns £75,000 weekly. That's 4th lowest of all senior squad members. If you're salty that Jesse earns more money than you for being worse at everything than you, that's fine, I get it, you're great. But if you take into account that players are generally paid on a host of metrics that primarily boils down to where you sit in the hierarchy or where you are in your career, you find that Jesse earns the same wage as Phil Jones and Mason Greenwood. Jones and Lingard are senior players with 1 big contract left in their careers, this is their peak income in the Manchester United wage structure. It's also one of the smallest contracts in the senior squad structure.

On the surface, Jesse's contract is no problem for West Ham. They pay Michael Antonio the same wage as Jesse currently makes, at 31 years of age and a lesser overall contribution than what Jesse contributed at West Ham, the club was more than willing to match the contract.

Understandably, the "problem" with moving Jesse along, is that Jesse Lingard has a contract with Manchester United and is within his right to stay and try to earn his way into the team, an option he chose for himself. He rejected West Ham and chose Manchester United. Now, maybe that will ultimately prove to be the wrong career move, but for a player who's been open with mental and family struggles, it's hard not to root for a guy who's been working so hard and achieved so much over the last year, that you at least want to allow him the same opportunity as every other squad member in the club has: The right to earn your opportunity to play.

In 1998, Manchester United wanted to sell another squad player surplus to requirements: Ole Gunnar Solskjær. The club had accepted an offer for £5.5million for Tottenham. Ole Gunnar Solskjær was 26 years old.

“The gaffer called me into his office and said: ‘I don’t really want to sell you because if you stay here you’ll play enough football,'” “That was enough for me. I didn’t want to go; my agent did. He said he had never met a person as stubborn as me. But I was right. I normally am!”

“The manager deserves the credit for all the success I have had. That was just one example of the kind of manager he is.

“There will be a lot of Sir Alex Ferguson I will take into management. He has transformed me into the professional I have been. He has drip fed things into me all the time.”


A stubborn manager keeps a player at the club because he believes he can make something of himself. History does enjoy repeating itself.
How you managed to sneak in an insult about me being salty about him earning the money he's earning is quite a feat. I'm not salty over what he's earning. Every premier league player earns more than me.

For me, it boils down to a key question:

Has Lingard had more than enough chances already? Imo, yes. However, luckily for you and Lingard, Ole doesn't seem to think so, judging by how Daniel James was the one who was sold instead of Lingard, so we'll just see what happens this season.

Based on his past performances, I'm not holding my breath.
 

stevoc

Full Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
20,126
Ole seems to trust him to make a difference in the attacking roles.
If the manger trusts him why did he barely play him in 2020, loan him out for half a season and then try to sell him in 2021?

Clearly he doesn't trust him.

He is likely to be one of the more experienced heads in our make-shift teams.

I really want us to rest our key players more. Our drop-off since Ole took over have been horrible to watch. Don’t forget injuries to key players too.
Resting attacking players likely won't be a problem anymore as for the first time in a long time we have real strength in depth in the front 4.

------------------------------Bruno/Pogba/VDB/Lingard/Mata

Sancho/Greenwood/Diallo-----------------Rashford/Pogba/Martial/Lingard/Elanga

-----------------------------Ronaldo/Cavani/Greenwood/Martial

I'll ask again as I'm genuinely interested, which combination of these players are getting rested for Lingard to get 20 starts this season?

All of Pogba, Bruno, Martial, Rashford would have to be out for him to be in with a chance to start. And even then you have Ronaldo, Sancho, DVB, Mata, Diallo and Elanga who would be in contention for the same positions. He'll start some games no doubt, maybe even Saturday who knows but I'd be very surprised if he starts more than 5-8 games this season. I've no problem with Lingard being here I just can't wrap my head around where this optimism that he'll get a lot of games comes from when he barely played last season when the squad was weaker.
 

red4ever 79

New Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
9,530
Location
Czech Republic
If the manger trusts him why did he barely play him in 2020, loan him out for half a season and then try to sell him in 2021?

Clearly he doesn't trust him.



Resting attacking players likely won't be a problem anymore as for the first time in a long time we have real strength in depth in the front 4.

------------------------------Bruno/Pogba/VDB/Lingard/Mata

Sancho/Greenwood/Diallo-----------------Rashford/Pogba/Martial/Lingard/Elanga

-----------------------------Ronaldo/Cavani/Greenwood/Martial

I'll ask again as I'm genuinely interested, which combination of these players are getting rested for Lingard to get 20 starts this season?

All of Pogba, Bruno, Martial, Rashford would have to be out for him to be in with a chance to start. And even then you have Ronaldo, Sancho, DVB, Mata, Diallo and Elanga who would be in contention for the same positions. He'll start some games no doubt, maybe even Saturday who knows but I'd be very surprised if he starts more than 5-8 games this season. I've no problem with Lingard being here I just can't wrap my head around where this optimism that he'll get a lot of games comes from when he barely played last season when the squad was weaker.
Let's see if Ole has the tactical nous and personality to rotate.
 

Tom Cato

Godt nyttår!
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
7,575
How you managed to sneak in an insult about me being salty about him earning the money he's earning is quite a feat. I'm not salty over what he's earning. Every premier league player earns more than me.

For me, it boils down to a key question:

Has Lingard had more than enough chances already? Imo, yes. However, luckily for you and Lingard, Ole doesn't seem to think so, judging by how Daniel James was the one who was sold instead of Lingard, so we'll just see what happens this season.

Based on his past performances, I'm not holding my breath.
To be fair, I took a page from Arnold's book when writing this post. The clue to unlocking the rest of the content of this post, is in this very sentence.
 

georgipep

Full Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2015
Messages
2,473
Location
Not far enough
How you managed to sneak in an insult about me being salty about him earning the money he's earning is quite a feat. I'm not salty over what he's earning. Every premier league player earns more than me.

For me, it boils down to a key question:

Has Lingard had more than enough chances already? Imo, yes. However, luckily for you and Lingard, Ole doesn't seem to think so, judging by how Daniel James was the one who was sold instead of Lingard, so we'll just see what happens this season.

Based on his past performances, I'm not holding my breath.
To sell a player there needs to be a buyer willing to meet the asking price. Leeds were that willing buyer for James and we were not willing to sell Lingard for peanuts. He just scored a brace for England too.
 

SadlerMUFC

Thinks for himself
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
Messages
5,746
Location
Niagara Falls, Canada
If it came down to Lingard or Martail I'd pick Lingard. He at least has good movement and will put a shift in and his confidence is sky high right now...
 

::sonny::

Full Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
17,868
Location
Milan
Ole would prefer to start in 10

He and van de beek will never get a chance again, only in carabao cup
 

Rightnr

Wants players fined for winning away.
Joined
Jan 25, 2015
Messages
14,093
Absolutely not. He's useless against a low block and in the big games, we have way too many players better than him.

He earned his last contract by breaking into the England squad on merit. Its clear that he was having issues after and his form and confidence fell off a cliff. Fortunately (or not) he seems to be coming back to form pretty strongly.

He's the most natural like for like backup to Bruno at this time, I think it's worth taking a bit more time to figure out if this is a real resurgence or a temporary uptick in form, rather than just writing him off completely.
First, he's 29 this year for pity's sake. How much more time would you give him? Till he's 35?

Second, how is he similar to Bruno? Bruno makes runs and scores against the crappier teams and also assits. Lingard makes runs on the counter and creatively he's inadequate and I'm being generous.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
17,086
This forum is going to have a meltdown if he somehow starts vs Newcastle. It'd be ludicrous if he did.
 

stevoc

Full Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
20,126
He earned his last contract by breaking into the England squad on merit. Its clear that he was having issues after and his form and confidence fell off a cliff. Fortunately (or not) he seems to be coming back to form pretty strongly.

He's the most natural like for like backup to Bruno at this time, I think it's worth taking a bit more time to figure out if this is a real resurgence or a temporary uptick in form, rather than just writing him off completely.
Too obvious, you need to be more subtle.