Haha, I’ve said in this thread that Pele is the GOAT. And I don’t hate Ronaldo. I just don’t think he’s as good as a handful of other guys that have played the sport. What a crime.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Seen him play live by the way in this very season. Tell me this: why do so many people make the same comments as me re his all round performances? Do they all just ‘hate’ him?
I would disagree.
Ronaldo has won all that can be won in 3 different leagues and has achieved CL success in 2/3 of them.
Messi has won more league titles because once again he played for a par superior team.
Ronaldo has done the most difficult thing in Sports winning the CL 3x in a row that’s insane. He is the top goal scorer and assister on the CL as well.
In the knockouts it’s not even close it’s Ronaldo and then nobody else comes close to him.
He’s proved himself in 3 leagues and now on the EPL if he somehow does it again he runs away.
For his country he has had a superior achievement as Argentina had won many trophies before and they will win more after.
Portugal won nothing before Ronaldo and their greatest ever success has come with Ronaldo including the biggest win in the history of the country.
https://www.goal.com/en/news/7157/euro-2016/2015/10/14/16314062/ronaldo-im-a-striker-now
From 2015. By his own admission a ‘penalty box player’ (not a ‘tap-in merchant’, those are your words, not mine).
I’m not wrong. YouTube compilations prove nothing. So again, when was he at his best as an all round attacking player?
Please respond to what I said about the comparison with Brady/Rodgers. If you think Ronaldo has the equivalent of six Super Bowl rings more than Messi then there’s no point in discussing any further.
Nail on the head. People like to throw around this shite that last decade Ronaldo has been a fox in the box. Anyone who has even seen half of his games know how untrue this is.
No he wouldn't, because his best lags behind a lot of players in the past 10 years. Not just Ronaldo and Messi.
I am honestly astounded someone rates him this highly.
And consistency is an ability. The fact that he's had plenty of subpar seasons is telling itself.
Because he's not as good as Messi in many things. Maybe the fact he dribbles really well blinds you -- and blinds you to how good Ronaldo is but football games are not won by dribbling. Messi is Messi because of his mind.
His best season as a creator was in 06/07, and then he became an even better player than that again when he traded tricks for ruthless efficiency. That's beside the point anyway, and I don't quite see what point you're trying to score here? My point was that Ronaldo at his creative best was a much better player than Hazard has ever been, and the fact that Ronaldo at his absolute best shits on Hazard from an even greater height only proves further how much better he is. He's mastered two different styles of football more than Hazard mastered one, and at the age of 36 he's still going while Hazard has been washed up and past it for a couple of years. Comparing the two in terms of ability is simply ridiculous.
Except in the Euro final against France
Your talking about wins.
Im saying Messi is more talented Ronaldo is greater.
All the Games Hes brought his team back from the dead where Messi has folded
The mentality aspect where Ronaldo is far superior he loves the pressure and spotlight where Messi folds as evident in back to back 3-0 lead losses.
The fact that most people prefer Ronaldo on their team then Messi if their team is losing.
The CL 3 peat. The euro win for Portugal which holds more weight then the Messi copa win for the reason I stated. Dominated 3 leagues.
So on and so fourth.
Ronaldo is the MJ and Brady of football.
This. Greatness isn't about talent or trophies or whatever. MJ is the undisputed GOAT of basketball despite scoring fewer points than Kareen and winning less championships than Russell because of his unrivaled mentality and drive, and that manifested itself on the court in high-pressure games.
Ali isn't the best pound-for-pound boxer ever either, but he's still the greatest.
Greatness in my mind comes from standing up and being the difference when it really matters. Ronaldo seems to do that pretty much every time. Pressure and expectation is like rocket fuel for him. Messi at his best is still the best player I've ever seen, but being unplayable for 30 games of the season doesn't matter if everything crumbles in game 31 and the team doesn't win. Messi's capitulations and subsequent tantrum mini-retirements with Argentina are not what I'd associate with true GOAT-level greatness. Not his multiple humiliations in recent years in the CL either.
I just feel it’s so small time, maybe for clubs like Spur getting into final and losing, they may think they have achieved something. As United fan, I never feel that way. Only trophy matters.
That is a question to the bookie.
I think it both matters, as records also define legacy. If records/legacy etc doesn’t matter at all and only footballing matters, I’d probably have Ronaldinho on the top among all the footballers I’ve watched, and George Best above Pele and Di Stefano too (from old footages). And that’s not just for argument sake, it’s my very honest assessment of their footballing from my eye test.So likewise you'll never hear about Ronaldo's or Messi's records again until somebody breaks them
In the end, football doesn't happen on paper. If you're interested in historic players, you'll make sure to watch footage of them.
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Of course you want to reduce everything to goals. But Messi has a better goal record in finals than Ronaldo. Messi has a better record in the head to head games, including the Champions League final and the champions league semi-final. Who folded then? I think you are believing what you want to believe and not looking at the facts.
Ronaldo lost 5-0 against Messi in a league game, 2-0 in a Champions League final and also lost a Champions League semi final. The biggest games they’ve ever played against eachother, Messi showed up and Ronaldo disappeared. Again, you are believing what you want to believe and not looking at the facts
I think you might need to canvas the opinions of millions of football fans here rather than positing this dodgy statement as fact.
Messi has more trophies and more goal contributions and has played 150 less games. You can try and hide from this fact but it always comes back to that.
No, Brady and MJ are the undisputed GOATs of their sport (though Lebron is gaining on MJ). They’ve also won the biggest team prize in their sport. Ronaldo is not even the best of his generation, so he can’t be Brady or MJ. He’s also not won the biggest team prize in his sport (and neither has Messi).
Don’t tell me it’s not possible either. Ronaldo got to a WC semi final with the Portugal golden generation team in 2006. If he was truly soccer’s Brady or MJ, he would have dragged that good team over the line at age 21 to their first ever World Cup win. Think that’s too young? Well let me tell you a little story about a 17 year old boy who did exactly that……
What you’ve said here makes no sense. Bill Russell has double the titles than MJ has. So how is MJ’s mentality unrivalled? MJ is the GOAT not just because of what he won or his drive, but the beautiful way he played the game. That’s what made him an icon and what puts him above Russell and other guys.
What has Ali got to do with this debate? His greatness is largely to do with his personality and political stances as much as his (great) boxing. Neither Messi nor Ronaldo are that charismatic or that brave.
Messi has more team and individual trophies than Ronaldo and more goal contributions having played 150 games less. Will have to keep quoting this because people always seem to ignore what doesn’t fit their narrative.
Ronaldo is miles better than Mbappe in Euro just few months ago though. Right now it’s very hard to compare, id say PL >>>>>>>>>>> French league, so my bias is on Ronaldo (if both have similar impact on their respective league)
You are comparing Hazard and Ronaldo directly as players based on what they’ve actually done. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m positing a hypothesis where Hazard performs at a high level week in and week out, season in season out for a period of 10 years. That’s not the Hazard we’ve seen. The Hazard we’ve seen has had some good performances coupled with injuries, major drops in form, spats with the likes of Mourinho, poor discipline, poor conditioning, etc. And even with all that he was player of the year in the premier league.
I’m not sure why you find this so hard to understand but I guess it’s because you just love Ronaldo so much. Put it this way. What if Hazard had Ronaldo’s work ethic and consistency? Who was better as a teenager? Did you watch them both back then? Who improved more from the bare bones?
You realize Messi has actually only won 3 CL as key player of his team? The first one is actually won by Ronaldinho and co, Messi is only a bench player at that time, playing a bit part role, similar to how Jordi Cruyff helped us winning 99 CL.
That’s very true. Ronaldo during his physical peak over a span of around 8 years, was a truly dominating player on the pitch. I’d even say he is the most all rounded attacker I’ve ever seen - pace, tricks, dribbling, finishing, long shots, heading, freekicks, athleticism, energy, mentality etc he has it all.
I'm going to answer this and then I'm giving this up. I don't have the patience to argue with someone that has the free time to post almost 60 posts in the same thread in three days and consistently brings up strawman after strawman in an attempt to score internet points. For a guy accuses someone of loving another player you sure are a little bit too invested in this thread.
What if Hazard had Ronaldo’s work ethic and consistency?
Yeah, well... He doesn't. No-one does. That's why Ronaldo is the greatest.
Who was better as a teenager?
Ronaldo, hands down. Better performances and he did it in a far better league.
Did you watch them both back then?
I did. Hazard was exceptional, but the only teenagers I have seen in my lifetime that could compare to Ronaldo's talent are Rooney, Messi and Brazilian Ronaldo. Possibly Mbappe as well.
Who improved more from the bare bones?
Also Ronaldo.
All of these hypotheticals are spectacularly pointless exercises, by the way. I don't get what you're trying to accomplish by trying (and failing) to paint Hazard as some wasted talent that could have eclipsed Ronaldo in an alternate universe. Do you want to do Quaresma or Hatem Ben Arfa as well? What about Fabio Paim? Ronaldo himself even said that he was better, so that one should be easy!
Well I beg to differ, you may agree on that statement, but not everyone does.
For example, the above is an obvious attempt to trivalize/deny the achievement of finishing 2nd and attempting to equalize it with finishing 3rd and below.
If it is indeed as you have mention, that no one is arguing against 2nd > 3rd and below, then isn’t it logical that CR7 should reach the final to catch up to or win the final to beat Messi’s achievements in the WC? I mean what is supposed to match or surpass 2nd other than to also become 2nd or 1st respectively. So why is this guy saying that it is not required? Lets call a spade a spade here shall we?
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This point of yours will never be addressed here. I do not even need to dig out the data to know in head to head direct matches, which of the 2 players performed better across the span of 20 or more games. If his god of showing up showed up, the record would be very different
AMEN. You hit it nail on.
Pele been discussed. He is nowhere near Ronaldo Messi or Maradona. He played in a nothing era of football and Garrincha was arguably better then him but didn’t have the same appeal.
Messi folds under pressure and has many a times.
No matter what Messi QUIT on his country after he missed the penalty. No GOAT in history has ever done that. He is disqualified off of that alone.
Ronaldo has out shone Messi in multiple derbies as well. You can’t single out on it games when they played each other because 09 and 11 were the greatest Barca team ever.
I do remember folding list a lawn chair vs Roma and Liverpool and sulking all over the pitch. I remember him doing the shame while Barca were getting dismantled vs Bayern. I remember him quitting in a final.
I also remember Ronaldo leading his team to its first ever major trophy ever. I saw him single handedly claw Juve out of a whole vs atlético that same game Messi would of not even been on the pitch he would be a ghost.
I’ve seen him do the same vs Wolfsburg and many a more.
In the KO rounds of the CL which is the biggest competition and most competitive in the sport. The most important games, these are the numbers. It’s not even remotely close. Their is no bigger moment player then Ronaldo in the sport.
Ronaldo- 79 games 67 goals 10 assists
Messi- 71 games 47 goals 14 assists
Fate of the universe on the line and you give me the option of Ronaldo or Messi it’s Ronaldo 10 times out of 10 .
Also about all time goals you forget the fact that for the first 7 years If Ronaldo’s career he was a traditional winger where as Messi always played as an inside forward his whole career. Ronaldo has evolved and changed his whole game 3x which is unprecedented.
He is the greatest score the game has ever seen.
Dominated 3 leagues
5CL titles a 3 peat a Euro for a country that never previously won one.
Their has been a Messi before his name was Maradona. Their has never ever been a Cristiano Ronaldo. He is a 1/1 in the sport.
As I said
Ronaldo, MJ, Brady cut from the same cloth and the top dogs of their respective sports.
IF Ronaldo somehow at 37 was to lead this United team to a EPL title it’s a wrap.
On the flip if PSG can not win a CL with the monster team they have built it would be an ultimate failure.
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Before Ronaldo, Portugal failed to qualify for 10 different World Cups. Before Messi, Argentina have only failed to qualify for one. Argentina have also been ranked higher than Portugal both before and after Messi and Ronaldo entered the scene. Comparing the two like-for-like is ridiculous. Portugal pre and post Ronaldo are two completely different beasts. Argentina were arguably a better before Messi started playing for them. In addition, in Argentina's World Cup run in 2014 Angel Di Maria was arguably as important for them as Messi. It wasn't like it was a one-man carry job.
Even when Juve went out against Lyon in 19/20 Ronaldo stood up as the best player on the pitch and scored two goals in an attempt to drag Juve through the tie. He at least left the pitch with some pride, as opposed to Messi who was very much complicit in Barca's feckless bottle jobs vs. Bayern, Roma and Liverpool.
The Hazard hypotheticals in this thread are absolutely mind-boggling.
'If he was more consistent'
'If he had Ronaldo's work ethic'
The fact of the matter is that Hazard is nowhere near Ronaldo nor Messi. It's an insult to even bring him up.
'If he was more consistent'
'If he had Ronaldo's work ethic'
The fact of the matter is that Hazard is nowhere near Ronaldo nor Messi. It's an insult to even bring him up.
yes, Bayern was a bottle job
Barca got pumped and Messi has had some bad losses in recent years but Messi scored nearly every goal against Liverpool and created every chance against Liverpool in the second leg. A significantly better performance across two legs than Ronaldo to far inferior teams like Porto and Lyon. Ronaldo turning his back on that free kick single handedly knocked his team out was easily more “complicit” than any gaffe Messi had. Messi was horrible in that second leg vs Roma, but Ronaldo has been getting bounced very early in CL to far inferior teams since he left the best midfield in the word. It goes both ways although yes Messi has had it worse lately in CL than Ronaldo.
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@SportingCP96 It's probably not wrong to say that Ronaldo is more clutch than Messi (though I've seen Ronaldo fold plenty of times as well). But why do you always need to exaggerate so much? Ronaldo is Brady and Messi is Rodgers is a an absolute joke comparison.
Messi has comfortably won the vote on a Man United forum, that is a credit to the intellectual integrity of you lot.
Would a Real Madrid forum vote the same way?
Would a Real Madrid forum vote the same way?
I love Ronaldo but I think Messi is a far better player overall though. One thing I don’t enjoy though is the mental gymnastics for any criticism of Messi. He is the greatest of this generation but Ronaldo getting criticism for Juve being shit in the cl while Messi getting away with 1 semifinal in the last 6 years as an example of Barca being badly run is the kind of thing that annoys me
I did mention this...Except in the Euro final against France
And even then he contributed to 6 of his team’s 9 goals all tournament (6 of 8 if you don’t include the final he didnt play) so he very clearly was a big part of why they got there in the first place. Messi literally wasn’t involved in the CL 2006 triumph beyond the last 16 and wasn’t his team’s key player.
I never said Messi was Rodgers. I didn't even state who Messi was in football.
I did compare him to Lebron in terms of pure talent in the game.
The only KO games that Ronaldo didn’t perform in for Juve was Porto and Lyon away (he was good in the home leg and almost single-handedly carried them through). In general, he was always the only one that showed up for them in the CL KOs. And going from the best midfield in the world to absolute, utter dross behind him is going to have a toll. Just give him a decent team (which Juve failed to do), he doesn’t necessarily need the absolute best like you’re implying.yes, Bayern was a bottle job
City where signing him until United stepped in. City have been putting out their propaganda as if they backed out....they where trying to save face. Anyone who bought into the narrative that they decided at the last minute they didn't want him is at best nieve.
Sorry but as everyone said, you are grossly underrating Messi, if you think a consistent Hazard would be Messi. Even at his absolute best, consistent seasons Hazard could not put up the numbers that Messi and Cristiano do in their worst seasons(let's not consider the youth years).
Cristiano's best may have come as a purely goals focused player(although he did create a lot of chances and was absolutely vital for the quick transitions that Real did), but his younger United version was a very well rounded attacking player who was creating chances and scoring goals at a higher rate than Hazard did. I mean just because Hazard is good at ball retention dribbling, you will say his absolute best is better than Ronaldo. Than I think you also consider Grealish's absolute best better than Ronaldo's. See absolute best isn't just that one game where a player did everything, absolute best should also consider how much consistent a player was during a long period of time. The reason many consider Messi better than Ronaldo, is not because Messi is just more talented on the ball but because Messi despite playing a role where he is not playing a purely goal focused game like Cristiano, yet he has better numbers than Cristiano. The very fact that Cristiano had to change his game to match Messi's numbers shows why Messi is a superior player.
While Cristiano's younger version, the all action winger would have never needed to change his game to match Hazard.
I am sorry but it is insulting to both Messi and Cristiano that Hazard is in the conversation.
After seeing this, there’s no need to read any further. You don’t know anything about football whatsoever. Do yourself a favour and educate yourself on Pele’s career. Watch full matches. Start with the World Cup games. Read about his exploits. There is no area of football that Ronaldo comes close to him. Not one. You’d realise this if you didn’t blindly worship Ronaldo.
Also this Cristiano is more clutch than Messi debate is seriously one of the most ridiculous arguments.
Messi had been playing with an aging Barcelona team since Neymar left/Xavi/Iniesta left and an Argentina team which has been for years most dependent on him to create and score, with holes everywhere, yet he was performing well against every team. I mean people always bring up the Liverpool game, but if we take it as a whole, Barcelona lost that tie 4-3. How anywhere a player who was behind the 3 goals his team scored who lost 4-3, not a player who will you take if you want to win.
This Ronaldo being more clutch than Messi, is seriously one of the most ridiculous myths created. I mean Messi has been saving Barcelona god knows since when, yet all that is highlighted is matched he couldn't win them matches and than it is concluded he isn't clutch. That is such a biased and manipulated point of view.
Messi had one game where he was absolutely garbage and that was Roma game, but people forget how during that tournament he single handedly destroyed Chelsea and really good against Roma in first leg.
I mean there have been so many matches where Messi created and scored goals out of nowhere, when it looked like Barcelona are going to loose, but let us forget about those games and concentrate on games which he lost. By that logic, no player in the world is clutch.
Messi had been playing with an aging Barcelona team since Neymar left/Xavi/Iniesta left and an Argentina team which has been for years most dependent on him to create and score, with holes everywhere, yet he was performing well against every team. I mean people always bring up the Liverpool game, but if we take it as a whole, Barcelona lost that tie 4-3. How anywhere a player who was behind the 3 goals his team scored who lost 4-3, not a player who will you take if you want to win.
This Ronaldo being more clutch than Messi, is seriously one of the most ridiculous myths created. I mean Messi has been saving Barcelona god knows since when, yet all that is highlighted is matched he couldn't win them matches and than it is concluded he isn't clutch. That is such a biased and manipulated point of view.
Messi had one game where he was absolutely garbage and that was Roma game, but people forget how during that tournament he single handedly destroyed Chelsea and really good against Roma in first leg.
I mean there have been so many matches where Messi created and scored goals out of nowhere, when it looked like Barcelona are going to loose, but let us forget about those games and concentrate on games which he lost. By that logic, no player in the world is clutch.
Exactly, he did better disappearing acts than David Copperfield in many of those games yet you won’t hear a peep out of his worshippers on that fact. This is when they were both at their physical peaks with good teams. CR didn’t win a CL for six years whilst Messi was waltzing off with 4 straight Ballon D’Ors. Tough to do that with ‘no mentality’. But again, there’s no reasoning with a worshipper.
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