Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

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Eddy_JukeZ

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Not sure he had much impact under Fergie, he seemed to more of an assistant than an influencer. Ole does not have a strong or experienced team behind him and it shows
I honestly find Phelan highly overrated.

We can only speculate what he does, but I thought our football notably got worse when Quieroz left and Phelan was the lead assistant from 2008 onwards.

I mean, I remember the zombie football threads on the cafe even then when we were winning.
 

Mickson

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All the excuses are coming out now. Ole needs a world class squad without a single hole in it. Ole needs a world class coach for every scenario. Ole needs a world class structure at board level around him. We’re just before the bit where we demand that Ole’s wife needs to be world class too to properly support him at home so he can succeed here.

At what point does it become a case of the structure, coaches and players needing somebody else than Ole?
Yes, the new argument - which is bizarre - is that Ole needs better coaches around him. It's like we MUST have Ole there. Like he must be around the squad and we should do everything to mask his weakness. An alternative is...bring in a new manager who actually can coach. Just seems cheaper than trying to get new coaches, new players, and new dietitians every time Ole fecks up. Just realize he isn't good enough.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Yes, the new argument - which is bizarre - is that Ole needs better coaches around him. It's like we MUST have Ole there. Like he must be around the squad and we should do everything to mask his weakness. An alternative is...bring in a new manager who actually can coach. Just seems cheaper than trying to get new coaches, new players, and new cars every time Ole fecks up. Just realize he isn't good enough.
Yeah it's getting tedious. We have a fairly good structure for the transfer market now.

If we have a poor season or are looking poor, the club need to be planning the successor. Our squad isn't rebuilding anymore. It's ready to win now. We need a manager to extract the maximum from this team and get us playing like heavyweights consistently and not underdogs.
 

roonster09

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It's odd that relying on good players is used against Ole.
 

anant

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Our squad now is way better than it was then.

That said, Jose failed in that league season.
I meant relative to competition. City were yet to go berserk in the market, Pool had Karius/Mignolet as their #1 and that Estonian CB, Chelsea were decent-ish and Arsenl were well Arsenal
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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It's odd that relying on good players is used against Ole.
Obviously some people WUM in that regard.

He has done a pretty good job reshaping the team compared to when he took over.

There's still a few deadwood, but they don't really play(well except Lingard again apparently).
 

Samid

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After a couple of days of reflecting, we should’ve handled the situation better when we went a men down but it’s not the end of world.

I used to think when Solskjaer get it wrong, he gets it really wrong, but then I remember that it’s quite the opposite really. It was evident last season when we had like 10 comebacks in the Premier League, and to me that proves Solskjaers in game management isn’t as bad as it seems.

Going a man down is tough especially in Europe, so I can cut Ole some slack just for that reason alone. If this is a reoccurring theme this season though I will start asking questions, but there is no reason to panic yet. We’re still in a favourable position in both the Premier League and the Champions League.
Pretty much.

Some guy on reddit made this:



No away team has won after going a man down in the past two seasons. Being a man down away from home for an hour on a type of surface you never practice/play on will often result in a shitshow. Time to get this game out of the system and look ahead to Sunday.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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I meant relative to competition. City were yet to go berserk in the market, Pool had Karius/Mignolet as their #1 and that Estonian CB, Chelsea were decent-ish and Arsenl were well Arsenal
Fair enough.

I do think Jose failed that season from a league campaign standpoint. I wasn't really happy at all we finished 6th and way off the top.

We had a good transfer window and only gained 3 points on the previous season with only a 5 goal improvement. It was extremely underwhelming after the exciting summer we had.
 

KiD MoYeS

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Ole in or Ole out, I think the one thing we can all agree on is that he does need to deliver this season. Its only September, can we hold off on sticking the boot in on a club legend for a few more months?
 

roonster09

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Obviously some people WUM in that regard.

He has done a pretty good job reshaping the team compared to when he took over.

There's still a few deadwood, but they don't really play(well except Lingard again apparently).
Yeah, he has good job in reshaping the team and we look much in much better position. IMO he isn't the manager who will win us big trophies, so he will be the transitional manager.

Saying all that, I don't know if there is any manager who gets criticism for relying on the good players.
 

MattofManchester

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Yes, the new argument - which is bizarre - is that Ole needs better coaches around him. It's like we MUST have Ole there. Like he must be around the squad and we should do everything to mask his weakness. An alternative is...bring in a new manager who actually can coach. Just seems cheaper than trying to get new coaches, new players, and new cars every time Ole fecks up. Just realize he isn't good enough.
To be honest, it's a reasonable argument. Phelan is the only one with a track record. Even then, his prior record to rejoining Manchester United was being a sporting director in Australia and managing Hull, where he was sacked, if I recall? There's a constant repetition of coaches(and players) who fell off the wagon after their experience under Sir Alex.
Then there's Carrick and McKenna. Outside of our other coaches, those two seem to be at the forefront of our coaching staff. One is McKenna, promoted from the academy and the other is Carrick, who joined the coaching staff with no prior experience(I'd have expected him to start at youth level tbh).
Hardly what you'd expect at the forefront of a team wanting to challenge for titles.

I'm not getting inolved, but I would say it's a rational aspect to examine.
 

Sviken

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Yes, the new argument - which is bizarre - is that Ole needs better coaches around him. It's like we MUST have Ole there. Like he must be around the squad and we should do everything to mask his weakness. An alternative is...bring in a new manager who actually can coach. Just seems cheaper than trying to get new coaches, new players, and new dietitians every time Ole fecks up. Just realize he isn't good enough.
This argument about the world class squad has always been nonsensical in nature. Did Klopp have a world class stacked squad when he won the league and CL with Liverpool? DId anyone think that shit Chelsea team everyone was mocking before Tuchel was anywhere near close to the title, let alone winning the CL? Does Pep have world class players in every position now? Ffs, he doesn't even have a striker. Was Zidane's squad perfect when he won a triple with that Madrid team? I remember everyone calling that Madrid needed a rebuilt. I know we're short of a DM and maybe a RB, but this squad is fully capable to dominate any team in the world with the right manager. One user here gave quite an apt question - if Ole was out of his job with United right now, no top team would be for him, with or without managers. And that's a sad fact. It's the fact that at the end of the day, the only reason Ole has this job is because he is a United legend. But unlike Chelsea and Juventus who realized that fact quick, we're still fumbling around expecting a miracle that isn't likely to come.
 

Bobcat

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This might sound like an excuse but I think the preconceived notion of "Away CL games are tougher" played a role and on top of that our players looked very uncomfortable on that pitch. Looked like they were more worried about not falling while running than passing the ball.
Astrofurft pitches should really be banned from top tier football. It may sound like "excuses", but Shaw had a point. Serious injuries occour at about 3x the rate on astroturft compared to grass

I suspect every team in the group is going to struggle playing on that pitch since the players are not used to it, where i suspect Young Boys are going to struggle away since they are less used to grass
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Yeah, he has good job in reshaping the team and we look much in much better position. IMO he isn't the manager who will win us big trophies, so he will be the transitional manager.

Saying all that, I don't know if there is any manager who gets criticism for relying on the good players.
I mean there's a still a lot of people on the cafe who attribute Pep's early CL success purely based on having Messi, Xavi and Iniesta. I've seen him get criticized in that regard too.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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This argument about the world class squad has always been nonsensical in nature. Did Klopp have a world class stacked squad when he won the league and CL with Liverpool? DId anyone think that shit Chelsea team everyone was mocking before Tuchel was anywhere near close to the title, let alone winning the CL? Does Pep have world class players in every position now? Ffs, he doesn't even have a striker. Was Zidane's squad perfect when he won a triple with that Madrid team? I remember everyone calling that Madrid needed a rebuilt. I know we're short of a DM and maybe a RB, but this squad is fully capable to dominate any team in the world with the right manager. One user here gave quite an apt question - if Ole was out of his job with United right now, no top team would be for him, with or without managers. And that's a sad fact. It's the fact that at the end of the day, the only reason Ole has this job is because he is a United legend. But unlike Chelsea and Juventus who realized that fact quick, we're still fumbling around expecting a miracle that isn't likely to come.
Some good points, but that Real Madrid team was stacked. Especially in 2016-2017. Their entire starting 11 was probably world class. Their back-ups pretty much won La Liga towards the end of the season.
 

Chaky_Best

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Issue is that the football played with Ole is not good enough for a few months now.

Toward the end of the last season, the EL final, and the three away games we played, it has been really poor in terms of production.

The team looks like Ole, inconsistent.

Let s hope for a win on Sunday, even if I doubt, but one thing is true, he has to deliver this season, especially after the investment made this summer.
 

roonster09

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I mean there's a still a lot of people on the cafe who attribute Pep's early CL success purely based on having Messi, Xavi and Iniesta. I've seen him get criticized in that regard too.
Yeah I agree.
 

Mickson

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To be honest, it's a reasonable argument. Phelan is the only one with a track record. Even then, his prior record to rejoining Manchester United was being a sporting director in Australia and managing Hull, where he was sacked, if I recall? There's a constant repetition of coaches(and players) who fell off the wagon after their experience under Sir Alex.
Then there's Carrick and McKenna. Outside of our other coaches, those two seem to be at the forefront of our coaching staff. One is McKenna, promoted from the academy and the other is Carrick, who joined the coaching staff with no prior experience(I'd have expected him to start at youth level tbh).
Hardly what you'd expect at the forefront of a team wanting to challenge for titles.

I'm not getting inolved, but I would say it's a rational aspect to examine.
I don't opposite to have good coaches and upgrade on those we have, I really don't know if Carrick is good or not, so I can't speak on that. It's just the argument that we must upgrade on them - to save Ole. Like the important thing here is Ole and not Manchester United. Surely we should strive to be top class in every department.
 

roonster09

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Astrofurft pitches should really be banned from top tier football. It may sound like "excuses", but Shaw had a point. Serious injuries occour at about 3x the rate on astroturft compared to grass

I suspect every team in the group is going to struggle playing on that pitch since the players are not used to it, where i suspect Young Boys are going to struggle away since they are less used to grass
Yeah, we didn't get any injuries. So that's a little positive from the poor game.

It's a blip, hopefully we make sure it's just a blip with good performance vs West Ham.
 

captaincantona

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Our squad is so good that there cannot be any blame placed on personnel. It’s purely down to how we set up, how we use that squad and not burn certain players out, how Ole ensures that the squad are given proper minutes so that they can step in at anytime and the overall quality doesn’t drop and most of all- we need a set way of playing so that squad members can be changed seamlessly, know what’s expected of them, and the performances do not suffer.

At the moment- we lose any one of Pogba, Bruno, Harry or Shaw and who knows what way we set up or attack!
 

rotherham_red

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Pretty much.

Some guy on reddit made this:



No away team has won after going a man down in the past two seasons. Being a man down away from home for an hour on a type of surface you never practice/play on will often result in a shitshow. Time to get this game out of the system and look ahead to Sunday.
Yeah agree with both you and the poster you quoted. Defensively we were spot on but our midfielders (other than Fred ironically enough) just didn't do their jobs. Pogba especially was handling the ball like a hot potato.

Ole cocked up with some of his subs too. He needed a proper outlet and didn't bring on Elanga. I could see what he was trying to do with his subs of Dalot, Varane, and Lingard, even Matic too, but Martial wasn't the one to bring on and in hindsight, I'd have kept Donny on instead of Pogba. What ended up happening was that it just invited too much pressure on us and we should have given their defence something to think about in behind.

But tbh, seeing how badly our midfielders were retaining the ball, I don't think there would have been much difference to the result even if Ole did everything correctly. The system he deployed yesterday was not the reason why Lingard did what he did. It was a very bad individual error.
 

Karlos PFC

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That’s fair enough. I can certainly see why that would get annoying.

but… it is also a month old.
Yeah I stopped posting for a while, it's not worth it.
I'm tired people telling me that I'm not a real supporter and go and support PSG, Pool or Shity just because we don't share the same view on things
 

Nou_Camp99

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Sure, here I get comments like these whenever I'll say that x player is great or when I say that Klopp and Pep are on different planet from Ole
Pep and Klopp manage our two most hated rivals. They will never ever ever ever ever ever be our manager now. It can't happen. So get over it. We all know they are both better than Ole. Nobody says otherwise.
 

Redfrog

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It's odd that relying on good players is used against Ole.
They prefer José playing Fellaini and benching Pogba, so it’s not José’s fault obviously.

I was gutted by the loss, but when I see all the threads and dramas many people are doing here, I am just thinking they should get a life…
 

captaincantona

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Pretty much.

Some guy on reddit made this:

No away team has won after going a man down in the past two seasons. Being a man down away from home for an hour on a type of surface you never practice/play on will often result in a shitshow. Time to get this game out of the system and look ahead to Sunday.
Ah here...stats for everything! Look at those away teams...none represent or can be compared with the absolute huge gap in quality that existed between Utd and Young Boys of fuking Bern...in the fuking Swiss league...the 14th best league in Europe...behind Serbia and Scotland no less!!! The away team who got the red card in those examples were all quite evenly matched 11 v 11 so I take that graph as completely pointless. Also, if I’m reading it right, does that confirm that the only team to ever lose a champions league away game (during the sample period) having been 0-1 up at the time of the red card is Olympiacos? and they were playing a team that was much more on their level than we were. That graph actually shows what a complete and utter shit show we were. 10 men or not- against that quality of opposition, we should have had more than enough ability and tactical nous to get a result. We didn’t...we were horrible!
 

Karlos PFC

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Pep and Klopp manage our two most hated rivals. They will never ever ever ever ever ever be our manager now. It can't happen. So get over it. We all know they are both better than Ole. Nobody says otherwise.
I'm over it mate but I wasn't suggesting to go and get Klopp or Pep. The discussion was about why do we keep insisting on an experiment when our most hated rivals went for managers who know how to coach a team that's all.
And your answer was "go and support PSG then..."
 

UnitedSofa

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Ah here...stats for everything! Look at those away teams...none represent or can be compared with the absolute huge gap in quality that existed between Utd and Young Boys of fuking Bern...in the fuking Swiss league...the 14th best league in Europe...behind Serbia and Scotland no less!!! The away team who got the red card in those examples were all quite evenly matched 11 v 11 so I take that graph as completely pointless. Also, if I’m reading it right, does that confirm that the only team to ever lose a champions league away game (during the sample period) having been 0-1 up at the time of the red card is Olympiacos? and they were playing a team that was much more on their level than we were. That graph actually shows what a complete and utter shit show we were. 10 men or not- against that quality of opposition, we should have had more than enough ability and tactical nous to get a result. We didn’t...we were horrible!
*moves goalposts*
 

redcafe_reader

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Pretty much.

Some guy on reddit made this:



No away team has won after going a man down in the past two seasons. Being a man down away from home for an hour on a type of surface you never practice/play on will often result in a shitshow. Time to get this game out of the system and look ahead to Sunday.
This look beautiful and all, but the using of stat like this is dishonest, because it doesn't take into account the strength of both team. I imagine if we lost again Madrid or Bayern people will be much more acceptant.

Let's look at all the lost:

PSG again Man City, twice
Atletico again Chelsea
Porto again Juventus
Atalanta again Real
Ajax again Atalanta
Olympiacos again Porto
FC Midtfdgdfg again Ajax
Inter again Real
RB Leipzig again PSG
Rennes again Chelsea
Juventus again Barca
Dortmund again PSG
Chelsea again Bayern
Real again Man City
Zenit again Benfica
Ajax again Valencia
Shakhtar again Atalanta
FK Crvena again Olympiacos

Among all these lost, there are ZERO time the team who lose are several tier stronger than the team who win.

Meanwhile, if we look at all the win:

Bayern win again Salzburg
Sevilla win again FC Krasnodar
Barcelona win again FC Ferencvaros
Dortmund win again Slavia
Leverkusen win again Atletico Madrid
Man City win again Atalanta

From those win, except the Leverkusen win again Atletico, all stronger team win anyway.

So basically the table shows that much stronger team win (or at least draw), regardless of the red card. And I think this should be our situation again Young Boy.

I am not Ole out, as I have been defending him for long and will still support him, but I hate that kind of dishonesty while using stat and I have been seeing it used more and more in social media nowadays.
 

Rash Decision

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I honestly believe we have the players to play the brand of football he's spoken of wanting to play, especially against the so called lesser teams. But I wouldn't expect him to play that way against the likes of City, Chelsea and Liverpool. Those games I would expect to be tighter games where if we're away from home then playing on the counter is a very viable option.

The midfield is lacking but we still have players who can do serious damage from central midfield against any team. Players like Pogba and even VdB have the technical ability to do damage in a approach that wants to dominate the game. And most of our games will be against teams other than Liverpool, Chelsea and City. Against the aforementioned 3, it would be fine to play poker on the counter IMO.

I also think our attack is very good. There will be teething problems which we're currently seeing due to new arrivals settling in to the team. But the more they play together the better I'm expecting them to become as a attacking unit. Pogba and Sancho are creators which compliments the likes of Cavani, Ronaldo, Rashford, Mason, Martial etc.

Personally I think we should be alittle bit more patient due to how early it is in the season.
I certainly hope you're right. Based on current evidence I think we lack midfielders with the required balance of workrate, defensive awareness, and passing ability, especially if we want to play Pogba and Bruno together. But I share the hope that with a robust system, they can be coached to perform well enough against the weaker teams. It's just the fact that we've still seen no sign of it till now that makes me pessimistic. Of course Ole still deserves a little more time though.
 

Samid

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Ah here...stats for everything! Look at those away teams...none represent or can be compared with the absolute huge gap in quality that existed between Utd and Young Boys of fuking Bern...in the fuking Swiss league...the 14th best league in Europe...behind Serbia and Scotland no less!!! The away team who got the red card in those examples were all quite evenly matched 11 v 11 so I take that graph as completely pointless. Also, if I’m reading it right, does that confirm that the only team to ever lose a champions league away game (during the sample period) having been 0-1 up at the time of the red card is Olympiacos? and they were playing a team that was much more on their level than we were. That graph actually shows what a complete and utter shit show we were. 10 men or not- against that quality of opposition, we should have had more than enough ability and tactical nous to get a result. We didn’t...we were horrible!
No one has claimed it wasn't a shitshow. Some people have watched enough football to understand that early red cards change games, others think Champions League is an amateur competition where 10v11 for an hour on an astroturf should have no bearing and that you should win regardless.
 

captaincantona

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No one has claimed it wasn't a shitshow. Some people have watched enough football to understand that early red cards change games, others think Champions League is an amateur competition where 10v11 for an hour on an astroturf should have no bearing and that you should win regardless.
Go read the much more articulate version of what I Said just written by “redcafe_reader”. Don’t be so arrogant- “some people have watched football enough”...I watch plenty of football thanks...you were completely wrong so wind your neck in. Your stats prove the opposite of what you were trying to say...it is not difficult to get a result with 10 men in the CL...everyone does it! Even with squads of much lower quality than ours.

There are no reasons to just “move on”. It was the latest in a long line of tactical clusterfuks that is Utd against lower quality opposition these days.

Other than counter attacking...tell me one game which you have actually watched under Ole where you felt the team was well drilled and well coached going forward?Even when we win well we hardly EVER show consistent attacking threat unless it’s on the break.
 

Samid

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I am not Ole out, as I have been defending him for long and will still support him, but I hate that kind of dishonesty while using stat and I have been seeing it used more and more in social media nowadays.
:lol: You're using Man City getting a red card in the 82nd minute at 5-1 up vs Atalanta as a direct comparison to being red carded in the first half away from home on an astroturf at 0-1. And you have the audacity to say others are dishonest with their stats. Pot meet kettle.
 

Samid

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Go read the much more articulate version of what I Said just written by “redcafe_reader”. Don’t be so arrogant- “some people have watched football enough”...I watch plenty of football thanks...you were completely wrong so wind your neck in. Your stats prove the opposite of what you were trying to say...it is not difficult to get a result with 10 men in the CL...everyone does it! Even with squads of much lower quality than ours.

There are no reasons to just “move on”. It was the latest in a long line of tactical clusterfuks that is Utd against lower quality opposition these days.

Other than counter attacking...tell me one game which you have actually watched under Ole where you felt the team was well drilled and well coached going forward?Even when we win well we hardly EVER show consistent attacking threat unless it’s on the break.
You're implying you've never seen a game under Ole where we've looked well drilled and coached. That's all I need to know about your crap opinions on football. I've got better things to do than waste time trying to convince the angry 'individual brilliance', 'counter attacking only' and 'no patterns of play' mob. Try watching games objectively and you'll see loads of examples of a well drilled team.
 

padzilla

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We finished 6th when we had Zlatan, Pogba, etc. under a "born winner" manager and Pool didn't have VVD and Alisson, so I'm pretty sure that there are sufficient number of managers who'd fail to get top 4
I said this squad, as in THIS squad, not the one from five years ago.
 

padzilla

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Arteta maybe?

Steve Bruce, Alan Pardew, Big Sam, Tony Pulis etc.
Again given the embarrassment of riches we have I would expect any of them to challenge for the top four - and I do not rate any of them, at the minute it feels like we are in the Mark Hughes managing Man City stage - spending a fortune on world class players, finishing top four but you know we're never going to win the league until we appoint a top class coach.
 

Drainy

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Surely you know success isn't guaranteed in football no matter how big and good a squad. Messi wasn't the best player on earth when Pep took over. If anything he showed bravery by tweaking Barcelona's system under Rijkkard and getting rid of several players to pave the way for Messi to rise to prominence with the team built around him at a young age.

Many thought Barcelona were at the end of a golden era after they won their first CL under Rijkkard. Van Bommel, Thuram, Deco, Zambrotta, Ronaldinho etc were replaced by the likes of Messi, Iniesta, Busquets, Dani Alves and the like as the core of the team. He fabricated his own version and went to places Rijkkard never ascended to, like winning the sextuple in his first season. Its absolutely his coaching alone that has catapulted him to the top. Pirlo took over a dominant Juventus and was fired after one season because he's not a very good manager
:lol:

Pep made Messi. Good one.
 

redcafe_reader

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:lol: You're using Man City getting a red card in the 82nd minute at 5-1 up vs Atalanta as a direct comparison to being red carded in the first half away from home on an astroturf at 0-1. And you have the audacity to say others are dishonest with their stats. Pot meet kettle.
I disagree. My whole post is to disregard the point that the poster I quoted made - my post mean that, the table said much stronger team win or draw anyway, which is true. That mean we should be able to win or draw again Young Boy, even with 1 man down - which should be true to a team of our level, compare to the level of Young Boy.

Also, even if we agree that 1 "example" is wrong, this should not disregard all other cases. When almost all cases are wrong you can accuse me of using stat dishonesty. For now I would say you are also dishonest with your usage of stat, since you use 1 example in total of more than 20 cases to say I am wrong.
 
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