What am I not seeing in regards to McFred defensively?

amolbhatia50k

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Hope we are flexible with the list of players. Rice would be good addition for sure, we need to push for one more CM too in that case. Sign 1 in Jan and 1 in Summer assuming Pogba leaves next season.
Personally, given that we play with a two man midfield, I don't even like us considering him as a CM.
 

United in sin

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Not sure which site you are referring to, whoscored.com and fbref both say McTominay averages 51 passes per 90 mins in PL.



No, I compared Gundogan to City midfielders who show "How he is hiding"




You compared McTominay with Fred to show McTominay was "hiding". I compared Gundogan with City midfielders to show how Gundogan was "hiding". It's not McTominay vs Gundogan. It's McTominay vs Fred and Gundogan vs City CMs.



I haven't changed my position even once, it's not my problem if you can't read properly. Go and quote the posts where I compared Gundogan with McTominay.

These are the posts I made. Go on and point out.
Whoscored has McTominay at 31.3 on AvP per 90 in the PL

McTominay passing stats Whoscored

What am I missing? The FBref stats are for several competitions including Europe aren't they? I don't see the individual stats for this season in the league alone. I see 51.62 which includes Europe. If you have the link for this PL season showing the 51 I'd love to see it

I thought you grouped Gundogan and McTominay as forward minded midfielders vs Fred and the others on the deeper side of midfield. That's my fault. McTominay's passing numbers are still short of any player named in this discussion. You further proved the point yourself that McTominay is not as available for the pass as Fred is.

Those numbers for received passes are close but hardly negligible when you put it all together and see the full picture which shows Fred's better use of the ball in every passing category
 

Raven

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But what I don't get is why he trusts Fred. The guy is a walking mistake, and other teams are certainly aware of it (as Deeney pointed out a while back.)
Why is everyone putting so much weight on Deeneys opinion? He's a shite footballer who's played for a series of shite clubs criticising the most played midfielder at a top club.
 

roonster09

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Whoscored has McTominay at 31.3 on AvP per 90 in the PL

McTominay passing stats Whoscored

What am I missing? The FBref stats are for several competitions including the Euros no? I don't see the individual stats for this season in the league alone. I see 51.62 which includes Europe. If you have the link for this season showing the 51 I'd love to see it

I thought you grouped Gundogan and McTominay as forward minded midfielders vs Fred and the others on the deeper side of midfield. That's my fault. McTominay's passing numbers are still short of any player named in this discussion. You further proved the point yourself that McTominay is not as available for the pass as Fred is.

Those numbers for received passes are close but hardly negligible when you put it all together and see the full picture which shows Fred's better use of the ball in every passing category
It's not per 90 mins, it's per game. In 3 appearances he played 174 mins, that's less than 2 games.

Whoscored, Fbref all have same numbers. You are checking at wrong table. Go to history tab, click on detailed and select per 90 mins stat.

I don't think anyone would argue that Fred is available for passes more than McTominay, that wasn't even the argument. It's about hiding. Last season McTominay played around 12-13 passes less than Fred and received 8 passes less than Fred. I wouldn't say that's hiding and that's not even a big difference as the players who drops deeper usually plays lot of passes between them and defenders.

Just to conclude, Fred is better than McTominay when it comes to available for passes but his loose touches and his superb ability to give away ball in dangerous areas makes him unreliable player, same with his defensive quality when players goes past him easily. Both of them are not good enough for ManUtd.
 

kouroux

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I don't think we ever needed precise stats to see that McT doesn't make himself available for Fred and the backline enough. This makes it harder to progress the ball forward.
 

United in sin

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It's not per 90 mins, it's per game. In 3 appearances he played 174 mins, that's less than 2 games.

Whoscored, Fbref all have same numbers. You are checking at wrong table. Go to history tab, click on detailed and select per 90 mins stat.

I don't think anyone would argue that Fred is available for passes more than McTominay, that wasn't even the argument. It's about hiding. Last season McTominay played around 12-13 passes less than Fred and received 8 passes less than Fred. I wouldn't say that's hiding and that's not even a big difference as the players who drops deeper usually plays lot of passes between them and defenders.

Just to conclude, Fred is better than McTominay when it comes to available for passes but his loose touches and his superb ability to give away ball in dangerous areas makes him unreliable player, same with his defensive quality when players goes past him easily. Both of them are not good enough for ManUtd.
I can't disagree with your summation. Cheers
 

wolvored

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Why Ole signed VDB is anyone's guess, but we seriously need an upgrade in CM/DM. Look at the hole in front of the defence for West Ham's goal. Fred isnt good enough. We might as well signed Bolt when he wanted to come a few years ago for a runner. Bad buy. Hopefully we can sign someone in January to alleviate this problem just in front of the defence otherwise we may have another troohyless season. I think McTom might be better with a better partner by his side as he's more suited to a box to box midfielder imo.
 

Nick7

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Simple answer is, we don’t have anyone better than them. For better or worse that’s our best midfield combination. Matic is overall better than both but doesn’t really have the legs anymore for the position. VDB hasn’t shown much in that position (hasn’t been allowed to whatever. Before people jump down my throat). We’re stuck with them for the rest of the season
 

arthurka

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Fred doesn´t read the game well, over commits and can´t pass. He runs a lot but other than that I don´t have a clue.
 

rollingstoned1

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Everything about Fred's defending in that position screams B2B and not one of the 2 in a double pivot. It's why he loses so many 50-50s, one of at least other than being shit at winning them.
 

acnumber9

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As opposed to what? Having Pogba back in CM?

I felt we controlled the midfield better against West Ham than we did in previous games and this was against better opposition too. In the first half in particular, our midfield played some lovely stuff.
West Ham, aside from Newcastle, were the only team that just let us have the ball. Whenever they actually did come forward they went through our midfield with the same ease that everybody else has.
 

georgipep

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Yes, I've noticed this as well. Has he gotten way worse at this? He used to win the ball back a lot, now he loses almost every duel he's in due to being small, slow and weak as a wet tissue.

As we all know he's erratic in possession and far from creative, so what's really left?
It's a byproduct of him playing with Pogba, Matic and Donny. He had to cover twice the usual amount of space and thus committed a lot more. Hopefully now he goes back to last season dynamics with McT and we see them thrive in their pressing and shielding roles. Mind that their shielding is limited to covering the flanks when the fullbacks are bombing. They are not your classic DMs sitting in front of the back 4.
 

Borys

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Due to our lacklustre defensive organization and top heavy formation, our CMs main duty is to run around plugging holes; which Fred and McTominay are best at.

In a more balanced and organized setup, we wouldn't need to go to such extremes with the player profile in CM, and players with a nice balance of playmaking and defensive ability would be able to function. But as of right now, we work better with CM's who excel at running round putting out fires while constantly outnumbered.
Do you watch the matches ?

United typically operate with both Shaw and Wan-Bissaka high up the pitch. When we lose possession and the opposition counters, you normally see Fred rush back to stop attacks into the space that you'd expect to find your left-back, while McTominay does the same role on the right.

This happens time after time. How can you miss it ?

Scott also heads clear corners, wide free-kicks, blocks the occasional shot, cuts out crosses when the defence is out of position. Again, this happens match after match.

I'm struggling to believe that you watch United matches.
Those two posts explain it nicely. We are super top heavy team, not only because our fullbacks stay high up the pitch (Shaw seems to be our main playmaker at times), but also because of our forwards - some of them are lazy (Ronaldo, Rashford, Martial), and some are really poor at defending (Bruno, Greenwood). There's basically no other way to play our 4321 formation without industrial midfield.
Plus, from what I observe, only Fred-McTominay work together as a duo, all other options seem to be just two random players told to do midfielding or something. I'd say van de Beek + Fred/Matic looked decent but the sample is not enough so I'll hold my judgment for now.
 

MadMike

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It's not per 90 mins, it's per game. In 3 appearances he played 174 mins, that's less than 2 games.

Whoscored, Fbref all have same numbers. You are checking at wrong table. Go to history tab, click on detailed and select per 90 mins stat.

I don't think anyone would argue that Fred is available for passes more than McTominay, that wasn't even the argument. It's about hiding. Last season McTominay played around 12-13 passes less than Fred and received 8 passes less than Fred. I wouldn't say that's hiding and that's not even a big difference as the players who drops deeper usually plays lot of passes between them and defenders.

Just to conclude, Fred is better than McTominay when it comes to available for passes but his loose touches and his superb ability to give away ball in dangerous areas makes him unreliable player, same with his defensive quality when players goes past him easily. Both of them are not good enough for ManUtd.
That's a pretty crazy opinion for the starting midfield that got us to second position last season.

You can argue they're not good enough to be guaranteed starters for a Man Utd team that aims to win the EPL or CL. They're still more than fine squad players though. In fact, I reckon they are probably amongst the most balanced midfields we've had in the last 10 years at least, alongside the short-lived Matic-Herrera-Pogba midfield under Mourinho.
 

roonster09

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That's a pretty crazy opinion for the starting midfield that got us to second position last season.

You can argue they're not good enough to be guaranteed starters for a Man Utd team that aims to win the EPL or CL. They're still more than fine squad players though. In fact, I reckon they are probably amongst the most balanced midfields we've had in the last 10 years at least, alongside the short-lived Matic-Herrera-Pogba midfield under Mourinho.
Yeah, that's what I meant. They shouldn't be starting players for ManUtd, not that they should be sold.
 

MadMike

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West Ham, aside from Newcastle, were the only team that just let us have the ball. Whenever they actually did come forward they went through our midfield with the same ease that everybody else has.
If we control the possession, it's the other team that just let us have the ball. If we don't, it's never because we let them but it's because we got dominated.

For the record (if it wasn't clear) I feel you are wrong. I thought West Ham tried to press in the first half and their press got taken apart by slick passing. Eventually and partly due to fatigue, they gave up. I also felt their counters were more due to defensive errors and also mostly coming down the wing, rather than playing through the middle.
 

Siorac

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McTominay does need to be more assertive in dropping deep to show for the ball. But surely if those stats paint an accurate picture it’s even more damning that Fred only attempts 66 passes per 90 from his deeper role ?

The progressive passes stat is one I have trouble putting much stock in. It’s hard to believe considering Fred’s penchant for passing the ball straight back to defense. But either way I struggle to understand how anyone could watch both players and conclude that Fred is the better passer of the ball.
I'm the same, except the other way around.

Speaking of progressive passes: those ignore the defending 40% of the pitch. The metric is defined as 'completed passes that move the ball towards the opponent's goal at least 10 yards from its furthest point in the last 6 passes', or any completed pass into the penalty area (again, ignoring passes from the defending 40% of the pitch). And Fred, who is supposed to play deeper according to yourself, is better than McTominay at this, as well as in defensive actions.

Seriously, literally nothing suggests that McTominay is a better passer than Fred. I'm not saying Fred is a good passer: he isn't. But the most you can say is that McTominay is no better and there are quite a few arguments supporting the conclusion that he's in fact inferior.
 

MattyLT

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What I see is Fred doing a lot of chasing about, giving the opposition very little time on the ball. McTominay is a bit more disciplined + he's got legs also (unlike Matic), which means he's usually there to cover the space Fred leaves behind. That's why those two together work defensively, and I'm pretty sure the stats and results prove it (without actually having looked at them).
 

acnumber9

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If we control the possession, it's the other team that just let us have the ball. If we don't, it's never because we let them but it's because we got dominated.

For the record (if it wasn't clear) I feel you are wrong. I thought West Ham tried to press in the first half and their press got taken apart by slick passing. Eventually and partly due to fatigue, they gave up. I also felt their counters were more due to defensive errors and also mostly coming down the wing, rather than playing through the middle.
That’s what West Ham do. It’s the Moyes way. You can disagree all you want. It will be the pattern of every game West Ham play against top sides. Just like it’s been the pattern throughout Moyes career.
 

Bertie Wooster

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I agree with many of the posts on here.

Out of our current squad, Fred and McTominay are the best CM partnership and we generally look more solid defensively when they play together than with any other pairing. So Ole is right to start them as his first choice CM's in the big games.

That said, it's the position of the pitch we definitely need to strengthen next if we're to challenge for the PL and CL and so, ideally, we'll have better 'first choice' CM options going into next season. But, for now, McFred makes the most sense.
 

EtH

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I'm the same, except the other way around.

Speaking of progressive passes: those ignore the defending 40% of the pitch. The metric is defined as 'completed passes that move the ball towards the opponent's goal at least 10 yards from its furthest point in the last 6 passes', or any completed pass into the penalty area (again, ignoring passes from the defending 40% of the pitch). And Fred, who is supposed to play deeper according to yourself, is better than McTominay at this, as well as in defensive actions.

Seriously, literally nothing suggests that McTominay is a better passer than Fred. I'm not saying Fred is a good passer: he isn't. But the most you can say is that McTominay is no better and there are quite a few arguments supporting the conclusion that he's in fact inferior.
This is another example of why stats can’t be trusted to tell the full story in football. It can’t all be cumulative and there just isn’t enough context many times.

Who was the better passer against West Ham ? Genuine question. Interested in what the stats say.
 

KingCavani

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Watching Fred go into 50:50’s lately has been comical. You think he’s gonna get there and next thing you know the player has the ball past him and running at the defence. Every time.
 

Siorac

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This is another example of why stats can’t be trusted to tell the full story in football. It can’t all be cumulative and there just isn’t enough context many times.

Who was the better passer against West Ham ? Genuine question. Interested in what the stats say.
McTominay: 53/58, 8 progressive passes, 68 touches, 10 pressures, 1 tackle
Fred: 69/77, 8 progressive passes, 89 touches, 31 pressures, 8 tackles

It's fun reading their respective threads though: McTom is now hailed as fantastic, one of our most important players and so on after a completely average performance. Meanwhile, Fred is getting pelters for... a somewhat better one.
 

Denis79

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It’s crazy when you think that if he signs a new deal with us, he will probably be on £300-350k and doesn’t have a guaranteed starting place, he could find himself being rotated with Rashford in the next couple of months.
I’d trust Mctominay next to a new DM more than Pogba.
Depends on the quality of the DM in my opinion.
 

jeff_goldblum

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It's a bind for Ole. We don't have one single central midfielder good enough defensively (in terms of mobility and positioning) to hold the fort solo or to partner Pogba in a midfield 2, so he plays from the left where usually we'd probably have someone a lot more mobile. We've swapped out Cavani for Ronaldo who, for all his obvious attributes, doesn't put in the same sort of shift defensively and whilst Mason's no slouch, pressing and ability to track back aren't two of his strengths. We're very reliant on Shaw for our attacking play and whilst Wan Bissaka isn't as effective both our full backs play high up to provide passing options for our forward players.

All of which means that we're very susceptible to the counter and desperately short of runners. In the absence of a top quality holding player, having two players in midfield who can run, intercept and tackle is what allows the likes of Shaw, Pogba and Bruno to do their thing freely. Whilst someone like Van De Beek offers more on the ball than Fred, he doesn't have the legs Fred does so playing him would mean our creative players would have to compromise their attacking contributions to compensate. Obviously ideally we'd sign a world class defensive midfielder who could provide the same stability without taking up two positions, but I'm far from sure that there's a player like that on the market at the moment.
 

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At their best, they provide a decent energetic duo that recovers the ball well and covers a lot of ground. That’s about it though. Both players are horrific in terms of defensive/positional awareness as well as both being below par progressive passers.

Sometimes I think people underrate how important being able to keep the ball is to looking solid at the back. There were very few times I can remember that West Ham looked dangerous from actual build up play. Majority of their attacking efforts came as a result of McFred mistakes either diving into the wrong challenges or playing piss poor passes.

Fred in particular has to turn it around, because at least with McT you get a better carrier of the ball along with a decent goal threat. If Fred isn’t tackling and recovering the ball well, he’s a true liability on the pitch.
 

EtH

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McTominay: 53/58, 8 progressive passes, 68 touches, 10 pressures, 1 tackle
Fred: 69/77, 8 progressive passes, 89 touches, 31 pressures, 8 tackles

It's fun reading their respective threads though: McTom is now hailed as fantastic, one of our most important players and so on after a completely average performance. Meanwhile, Fred is getting pelters for... a somewhat better one.
It’s because those stats are inaccurate. Fred didn’t come close to making 8 tackles in that match. And the “progressive passes” stat is useless if that’s the case. McTominay was quite clearly the more dangerous passer against West Ham.
 

Siorac

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It’s because those stats are inaccurate. Fred didn’t come close to making 8 tackles in that match. And the “progressive passes” stat is useless if that’s the case. McTominay was quite clearly the more dangerous passer against West Ham.
There's not much point to talking about anything when your stance is that when facts don't support your arguments, the facts are wrong.

But I'll indulge you: according to whoscored, Fred had 4 tackles compared to McTom's 1. McT had 2 key passes, Fred had 1. 92 passes vs 72 in Fred's favour.

They both had an average performance, overall.
 

gerdm07

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As opposed to what? Having Pogba back in CM?

I felt we controlled the midfield better against West Ham than we did in previous games and this was against better opposition too. In the first half in particular, our midfield played some lovely stuff.
Yes, the 1st half we played some very good football and McFred did a good job moving the ball. However, just think how good we would be if we had someone with Jorghino's passing skills. Maybe in January.

McFred is the best we have at those positions.
 

Chief123

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Honestly, I dont get it what they do defensively that Ole seems to think we need them to play?

Fred to me is really bad in 50/50s now, I dont trust him at all. Scott I find is also positionally awful, he is never where the danger is. I asked myself, how many times have I seen either of these guys stopping an attack?

Its not like they are great passers that we can forgive them being bad defensively. Id bet someone like Jorginho has more interceptions than Scott for example.
You would think Ole would realise by now that an unprecedented record of 29 unbeaten away games is not offering anything! It's just not working.

Summary - we have no better options in those positions.
 

Chief123

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Yes, the 1st half we played some very good football and McFred did a good job moving the ball. However, just think how good we would be if we had someone with Jorghino's passing skills. Maybe in January.

McFred is the best we have at those positions.
Ole is persisting with it because it's getting him results more often than not. The truth is it does offer us more solidity whether we choose to see it or not. Ole clearly just wants the 2 in front to protect the defence and let the 4 in front do all the attacking with assistance from the full backs.

For now McFred are our only viable options who can do that job.
 

EtH

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There's not much point to talking about anything when your stance is that when facts don't support your arguments, the facts are wrong.

But I'll indulge you: according to whoscored, Fred had 4 tackles compared to McTom's 1. McT had 2 key passes, Fred had 1. 92 passes vs 72 in Fred's favour.

They both had an average performance, overall.
Well it’s hard to call them facts when they differ so greatly from one website to the next don’t you think.

But while I thought Fred was poor yesterday, I certainly agree that anyone claiming McTominay was fantastic is overstating it.

That said, McT needs to drop deeper at times and show for the ball more consistently. Of that there is no doubt.
 

Nicolarra90

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If what you are saying about Pogba is true, then it raises an interesting question: why are we working so hard to resign him, if his only viable position is on the left, a position in which we are already well-stocked (Rashford, Martial, Sancho)?
Martial gone and Sancho bought for right side as Mason will go central after Ronaldo
 

MancFanFromManc

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I've been having the Fred debate since he signed. Most of my United mates cant stand him. He gives us energy but surely, for a Prem player, we should expect more than just running around a lot. He certainly cant tackle, its laughable how many times he tries and fails to win the ball. What I will say in his defence is that the players trust him. Watch the number of times VDB is ignored when he's free verses how many times players give the ball to Fred. He's not the most adventurous passer but he does tend to find a teammate at least. I guess that's easy enough when you rarely try and beat a man but still, its something. At the end of the day I expect my midfielders to do 3 things: Pass, tackle and run (shooting would be nice too but I dont want to appear greedy!). United are amazing. We've managed to assemble about 10 who can do 2 out of 3 of those things!!
 

jem

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Martial gone and Sancho bought for right side as Mason will go central after Ronaldo
Even so, still makes Pogba somewhat superfluous given that Rashford is rightfully nailed on as the RW and Sancho can provide cover there should it be needed. Mason is no doubt the future at 9, but that's several years down the road, and the Pogba situation is an immediate concern.
 

jem

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Why is everyone putting so much weight on Deeneys opinion? He's a shite footballer who's played for a series of shite clubs criticising the most played midfielder at a top club.
Because he's a player who opened up on how his team viewed, and targeted, Fred. Seems pretty valid to me.
 

jem

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It's not that we need to be frugal, it's just that a player like Rice or Bellingham would likely cost almost £100m.

I think Pogba is really good in the AML position, which then causes us another slight issue because we have Rashford and Sancho out there!
Right, but it again begs the question: can we really justify pushing so hard to resign a player who seemingly can only be trusted in one position at the moment (a position we are already well-stocked in), particularly given that using him in his natural position would require a monumental outlay on a player like Rice (I haven't watched much of Bellingham, but I can't imagine him being bought to complement Pogba.)