We are gonna compete for the big trophies by finishing 10 points below the Champions and out in Europa. He is gonna smile a lot though, mention mentality and we are gonna be oh so happy about the progress.
5 years without a trophy - Further away than ever
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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One of our players will win the Sir Matt Busby award trophy.
Question for those who obsess about Ole not winning a trophy - if Ole wins the FA Cup this year, does that mean he is a good manager now?
I think the expectations at United are so high, managers should only be judged on 2 trophies, PL or CL. Winning FA cup or league cup doesn't make you a better manager. If Ole suddenly wins the FA cup with 3/4 easy draws does it make him a good manager ? no.
But if he wins the CL or PL, narratives will change.
Unfortunately, I do not think he is good enough to even come close to any of those trophies.
What happens if we were beat on the last day of the season to the title, like 2012 when City won with the Aguero goal, or if we lost the CL final the same way we lost the EL final last season 11-10 on penalties where our goalkeeper misses a penalty. Would he still have to go in your opinion? Genuine question.
No offense but this is such a stupid line of argument.
Firstly, every big football should obsess about winning trophies. If we're not then that's a huge problem.
Secondly, why is is black or white ? Do you see everyone calling Arteta a top manager because he won the FA Cup. The smaller cups don't make or break a manager but winning them is far better than not. Mourinho was not a success as United manager but without the trophies it would have been an abomination.
Finally, winning trophies, which trophies, does help in building a desire and greed to win more.
If anything it's sad that fans question the fact that a United manager is getting questioned for a lack of any silverware. It's what we laughed at Arsenal for.
I personally wouldn't want him gone if we achieved that this season but if come next summer he gets a DM and a ST(Haaland since he's the one he wants) I'd want the PL or CL no questions asked and any excuses wouldn't cut it since there will always be an excuse to not succeed but success actually has to come with uncomfortable truths and expectations
That would be an improvement on recent years. Fa Cup and top4 would be nice.
Has to win something this year, or at least come close. I get the feeling though that most fans don’t care about close, or even what competition it is - just get over the line in one of them. The league cup doesn’t do a lot for the bragging rights but at least it would’ve got the monkey off his back.
We were a dodgy penalty away from winning the Europa League, so it’s not black and white for me. However if we aren’t able to challenge in the league and can’t win a cup either, I think he’ll have to go. If we lose the league on the final day, and lose in the FA cup final, he’s probably done enough for another season. There has to be some nuance, for me. It’s not just a case of ‘oh well we won the league cup, happy days’.
We were a dodgy penalty away from winning the Europa League, so it’s not black and white for me. However if we aren’t able to challenge in the league and can’t win a cup either, I think he’ll have to go. If we lose the league on the final day, and lose in the FA cup final, he’s probably done enough for another season. There has to be some nuance, for me. It’s not just a case of ‘oh well we won the league cup, happy days’.
It's not funny. It's now obvious that Ole cannot win with these guys or anything else for the matter
I think the nuance comes in the performances under him. If we show clear improvements and play really well in the majority of the games, but win nothing due to other factors like luck, a one-off poor performance or another team just being untouchable, he should earn another season. Of course, what constitutes good performances is really subjective.
When?
They have won 4 of the last 8 FA cups
The 2014-2017 teams weren't shit. That's ignorance.
My question for those who obsess about keeping keeping Ole - if he wins nothing this year, does it mean he is a good manager?
An FA Cup would be his biggest achievement as manager, League Cup would have been also. He needs to win trophies with the players he has and the club he manages. Still has three to go for this season of course so let's hope we can win one.
Top 4 every year seems to be the only target of the owners and unfortunately in my own personal experience, half our fan base. As for the fans I think that mentality would change dramatically though if it wasn't Ole in charge...Glazers not so much.
So hopefully we will get top 4 with a good challenge in both league and CL and win the FA Cup. Is that being greedy and entitled as a fan? I don't think so. I'd be more than happy to continue with Ole next season if that is the case, if not I hope we replace him.
Fighting for fourth. Yes they were. Standards were already plummeting and you finished 5th that year if I remember correctly. 5th and a fa cup win then a couple of years later it’s 8th(?) and a cup win. That’s not ignorance, it’s facts.
No but it might mean he’s not a terrible one.
Not that I obsess about Ole not winning, I’d rather we just won everything but I kind of feel the time of minor domestic trophy on its own and not being on the hunt elsewhere has passed when you also factor in the spending and squad we have. If we just miss out on the PL and win the FA cup I’d consider that a good season, if it’s another case of being nowhere near the title but with an FA cup win it’ll feel a bit shit.
Success breeds success.
That's why Mourinho when he first went to Chelsea, and Pep to this day, continue to put a lot of emphasis on winning the League Cup. It's not the biggest, but it creates that winning mentality that serves to set the squad up for the remainder of the season and instills that winning habit.
There's too much over reaction to the league Cup loss in the media, all I heard this week was "Ole missed another trophy opportunity". It was our 1st round of the league Cup not a champions league final.
If we're within 3 points on the last day of the season and go out of the champions league in the knockout stages to a top team I'll be satisfied with our season. Obviously I want us to win something, but what I really want is for us to be competitive at the highest level on a ongoing basis, I don't want an fa cup to paper over the cracks. I want every team from Madrid, PSG to Man City fearing drawing us in the later stages in Europe. If we get to that level the trophies will come naturally. Will Ole get us there...... I hope so, but I can't help but feel we're seeing the peak of his team.
If we're within 3 points on the last day of the season and go out of the champions league in the knockout stages to a top team I'll be satisfied with our season. Obviously I want us to win something, but what I really want is for us to be competitive at the highest level on a ongoing basis, I don't want an fa cup to paper over the cracks. I want every team from Madrid, PSG to Man City fearing drawing us in the later stages in Europe. If we get to that level the trophies will come naturally. Will Ole get us there...... I hope so, but I can't help but feel we're seeing the peak of his team.
Which statement sounds better;
1) Manchester United have won the FA Cup.
2) Manchester United still hasn’t won anything.
and
1) We are obsessed about Ole winning a trophy.
2) We don’t mind if Ole doesn’t win any trophies.
Well said.
no -
I think he is a really good general manager - he's just a shite coach
The whole point of football is to win titles.
We're obsessed with our club winning trophies.
But this is my point....look at the title of the thread, and the example you give is perfect.
Arteta HAS won a trophy, but Arsenal don't appear to be improving.
United are definitely improving and we can back that up with statistics and league positions, yet current fashion seems to be to criticise Ole because he hasn't won a trophy yet.
Yes, we can but all that is for nothing if it doesn’t end up with tangible silverware.
Yeah so we made our last CL final in 2011, a decade ago so forgive people for not fancying our chances in realising the latter of those two situations
Mere incremental improvement in the league is not the goal though. Winning trophies is. If you can win the biggest trophies then that's obviously the ambition of the club met. But if not, there's only so much incremental improvements can be considered as some sort of invisible success, and winning feck all in that time means a lot.
Please remember that this is Manchester United not Arsenal. We have players like Ronaldo, Bruno, Pogba, DDG and co at this club and spend 100 million nearly every summer. Arsenal do it once and oddly enough on kids for some reason. Manchester United being trophyless should always raise questions. Always.
Nobody is saying the league Cup would have meant we are successful under Ole. But no trophies in four years is not a good look for the club. Surprised this is up for debate.
That doesn't mean anything I am afraid. You earn trophies, they aren't handed out based on reputation or popularity.
Fact is, the way our club was ran post-SAF (arguably even before that) means we have gotten what we deserved over the last decade - basically not much!
In the past two/three season, we have finally started making good decisions on and off the pitch. The squad now looks much more like the kind of squad that can challenge for big trophies. The team spirit seems to be excellent. The age profile of the squad is good.
My point is, don't just write all that stuff off as 'incremental gains', it's not - it's a massive step in the right direction.
I think that the bolded is why it's important to win trophies in general. Success breeds success and Alex Ferguson used to talk about the importance of winning trophies in generating a winners mentality among players.
I agree that there's a distinction between winning a relatively smaller cup and the Champions League or Premier League. Winning an FA cup wouldn't make Solskjaer a success just as it's ludicrous to call Arteta a success at Arsenal, as you pointed out.
We have a squad if properly used can win us the title, which is the only thing that matters.
If we do not win the title next year, it will be 9 years.
I have criticised Ole for poor decisions before. But he did the right thing with picking the team he did.
He should pick second stringers in the FA Cup too.
If we do not win the title next year, it will be 9 years.
I have criticised Ole for poor decisions before. But he did the right thing with picking the team he did.
He should pick second stringers in the FA Cup too.
If the likes of Arsenal, Sevilla, Villareal, and Leicester can win a trophy in competitions we're competing in, then Ole has absolutely no excuses for being trophy barren thus far.
This season should be his last chance to win something, and even then it has to be something big given the whole "rebuilding" rhetoric we've had to endure for 3 years. If you spend 3 good years edging, the release had better be fecking fantastic to compensate.
This season should be his last chance to win something, and even then it has to be something big given the whole "rebuilding" rhetoric we've had to endure for 3 years. If you spend 3 good years edging, the release had better be fecking fantastic to compensate.
We need to win the league. I couldn't give a toss about the league cup, or even the FA Cup.
Context: I like OGS and I think he has done enough to see this season out atleast. I have concerns about his tactics (specifically over reliance on individuals in attack, shit when building play up from the back).
That said, I don't really think trophies are the be all and end all here. Otherwise you'll just end up with quick bandaids to suit whoever is in charge instead of building a good squad for the long term.
I firmly believe the if we play good football, create lots of good goal scoring chances and improve every year through good transfer policy, trophies are inevitable. Even if we turned our narrow defeats into victories in the League cup SF / EL final last year, I don't think it would've made a difference for our title challenge / CL challenge this year. Ole shouldn't get more time because he won the EL and nor should he get sacked because he lost the EL.
Deep CL runs, points in the league and putting up a title run are all that matter at this point.
That said, I don't really think trophies are the be all and end all here. Otherwise you'll just end up with quick bandaids to suit whoever is in charge instead of building a good squad for the long term.
I firmly believe the if we play good football, create lots of good goal scoring chances and improve every year through good transfer policy, trophies are inevitable. Even if we turned our narrow defeats into victories in the League cup SF / EL final last year, I don't think it would've made a difference for our title challenge / CL challenge this year. Ole shouldn't get more time because he won the EL and nor should he get sacked because he lost the EL.
Deep CL runs, points in the league and putting up a title run are all that matter at this point.
Sorry I thought you were making a joke saying he ratified the problem of reaching semis by getting knocked out first go. Quite funny when you look at i like that
Well yeah then that would show we are right up there and of course would show Ole to be doing quite well. Of course he wouldn't be fired for that and nor should he be even though ultimately we would be left disappointed.
It's more so if we win nothing and don't properly challenge again.
You have to be doing both or atleast one but now.
Arsenal won FA cup last year, and they are not better than City, who they beat in 1/2 finals or Chelsea (even Lampard's Chelsea) and they beat Chelsea in FA cup final. Would be nice to win FA cup, but Ole will ultimately be judged on Premier League and Champions League performance. Think main advantage City, Liverpool and Chelsea have on us is in manager and that will probably show over the season.
If we don't go through the group stage of CL 2nd year in a row it'll be a bit of a disaster tbh. Out of 15 points available, 10-12 should be enough to get into knockout stages and with the talent we've got in the squad, that shouldn't be the problem really.
If we don't go through the group stage of CL 2nd year in a row it'll be a bit of a disaster tbh. Out of 15 points available, 10-12 should be enough to get into knockout stages and with the talent we've got in the squad, that shouldn't be the problem really.
If you look at the club's managerial history ( leaving out Ernest Mangnall, Sirs Matt and Alex the 3 longest and most successful managers ) only 3 managers have lasted as long without being successful and they were A.H. Atbut, John Chapman and Herbert Bamlott. I have ignored those managers who were in place during the 1st and 2nd world wars.
So it could be said that even in these modern times he really needs to bring at least one trophy to fill the cabinet this season.
So it could be said that even in these modern times he really needs to bring at least one trophy to fill the cabinet this season.
It is interesting to read a post such as this. Five or six years ago (when I first started reading the site) anyone who even hinted that problems began whilst SAF was still the manager was swiftly shouted down, but not so much nowadays.
This is to be applauded. Sadly Sir Alex Ferguson built an empire, but also sowed the seeds of its decline (not least by cozying up to the Glazers whilst building his own personal fortune). It is right that people are now able to say this, without getting their heads chopped off...
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