Progressing the ball does not require a Modric-Kroos level ability, look at Brentford yesterday and they did progress the ball just fine against Liverpool's pressing, the whole team looks disjointed and I can't understand what football we play.
The McFred midfield duo
- Thread starter kouroux
- Start date
Exactly.
People talk of the United way, but it certainly isn't playing two holding midfielders at home to teams like Villa.
When we're attacking the quality of Varane, Maguire and a DM is more than enough to deal with a lone striker.
Remember how Rafa Benitez used to get mocked for being a negative manager dor always playing two holding DMs?
Perhaps when Varane has settled in to English football at bit more we'll see this happen.
I think Fred can be salvaged, maybe it's too many games catching up with him after last season and then going to the Copa America. I am worried about Scott but maybe since he just had surgery he's come back too early.
My reservations are more on Ole than on the two as a duo, they don't pick themselves. That Ole decided to into the season with them not only as first choice but pretty much undroppable as they have no realistic, viable competition is an indictment on his football intellect and judgment.
Fred vs Leeds - 10 losses of possession with 9 misplaced passes & 1 failed dribble. He also failed to successfully make a single tackle.
Fred vs Southampton - 15 losses of possession with 13 misplaced passes & being tackled twice. He did make 4 tackles this game though.
Fred vs Wolves - 8 losses of possession with all 8 being misplaced passes. Actually not bad for Fred.
Fred vs Young Boys - 7 losses of possession with 7 misplaced passes. Not bad again but then again we didn't really have the ball to lose it.
Fred vs West Ham - 10 losses of possession with 9 misplaced passes and 1 failed dribble.
Fred vs Villa - 11 losses of possession with 10 misplaced passes and 1 time being tackled.
Overall, piss poor. He loses possession more than a player that spends all game trying to make incisive passes to break the lines yet Fred only ever attempts simple, square, short passes and still managed to feck them up to this astounding degree. If you saw these stats alone you'd think he spends his games pinging 50 yarders everywhere off his weak foot.
What makes things worse is McTominay's stats make for even worse reading. They're just awful.
This is worrying and like I said above it calls into question the manager's judgement. The infuriating aspect of all this is that it's not anything new or unexpected, this is the Fred we know but most, including the manager, are swayed by his energy in harrying opponents forgetting that we wouldn't need that energy as much if we just kept the ball better.
It's pointless for a player to make 10 tackles and 10 interceptions only to lose the ball 20 times.
On bolded: a part of me wants to believe that this is the case but Ole always gives the impression that he has his favourites and thay have to play no matter what. You see this with Rashford, it never mattered much that he's playing terribly, he just has to be on the pitch.
Exactly. I'd rather have Matic, who people accuse of not having the legs any more, if he doesn't NEED the legs because he doesn't give the ball away 10-20 times a game. Van de Beek too over McTominay. DVB makes more tackles, more interceptions, more passes with higher success rate & higher dribbling success too when carrying the ball forward by running with it. Somehow we stick to McT for his height and Fred for his ability to run at opponents who he has just passed the bloody ball to.
The stats good, bad and indifferent always need context than in isolation to prove your point. Those are comparable to most midfielders and Pogs would look no different currently. The top midfielders less than that, but the measure of being poor doesn't have to be against the top midfielders in the world. We don't use that same measure for others in the team in the same way including the manager. If you think just going out and getting Kante will solve our problems, I guarantee you his stats would look no different in this team, the issues are much more entrenched than negative stats about McFred.
I wonder how long it's gonna take for people to be moaning about Varane and Sancho?
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When Matic & Pogba or DVB play as the pivot their stats aren't really comparable though. They blow them out the water. Key passes is another stat I didn't include but basically passes that lead to a chance. Fred has had 1 all season vs West Ham. Matic & Donny & Pogba get 2-5 key passes per game. Fred is almost literally useless.
Again context. How many games has Matic and Donny played in and the nature of the games they played in? The sample size is stupidly small to make any comparison. Donny or Matic have not scored a single goal this season, they are literally useless, Fred score 1. That's comparable to your comment about key passes. It's nonsense.
In June and July, one Premier League player gave the ball away 198 times — more than any other outfielder. He misplaced a league-high 106 passes in the attacking half? Bruno. I guess he must be pointless too cause those figures don't equate to goals and assists. Again context, maybe the sum of a players parts are more than just focusing on what they can't do or don't do as well as others. Passing is a fundamental part of football but not unless you win the ball back first.
And yet his defenders will point out passing percentages and interceptions or tackles that lead to chances. Like Keane says, isn't that his job?
That's not even including the passes he completed that's behind his own team mates so they have to reposition or passes that put his own team mates in trouble.
Guy even laughed when he put the ball into touch while trying to find AWB. Pisses me right off. There is no accountability. Nobody to bollock him for constantly fecking up simple passes you'd expect a professional centre midfielder to make, let alone a centre midfielder who plays for Manchester United.
Bruno is judged with being the main creative force of the team and he delivers so he is tolerated but even the manager should be giving him a stern talking to with regard to taking care of the ball.
Winning the ball is a fundamental part of the game but it's pointless if you are giving it away as much as you are winning it, particularly at the base of midfield where such mistakes can be costly.
We need to address the midfield in January or we wont be fighting for honours this season.
Bruno is an attacking midfielder who is there to try risky passes to get us goalscoring chances. Fred is a centre midfielder who is supposed to keep things under control, and fails miserably at it most of the time. There's a difference.
Yeah except Bruno is an attacking midfielder trying to split defenses, find key passes, cross, corners, free kicks etc that make up his numbers and Fred is a defensive midfielder who needs to get the ball to players like Bruno.
I strongly disagree.
It was always the center defence. Previously they did not have the collective pace to play a highline. Yet both like to advance with the ball. The created to issues:
Necessitating 2 players had to cover for their collective lack of recovery pace
At home they'd create a no man's land between them and the midfield. Making it easy for us to be caught on the counter. Yet if the pair sat to deep our creative and attacking out put would suffer. Since we'd have to sacrifice a forward to accomdate a second midfield playmaker. As opposed to away where we played a deeper line.
Both those issues showed up on our shocking home firm as result.
With Varane starting at fit how the front 4 are set up defensively doesn't matter. Plus the defence now only needs one dedicated shield from midfield
To be fair. This is a good point.
Sancho was brought to help is stretch the on the the right like we do on the left.
So unless he finally hots form and takes over from Greenwood there. Or Dalot over takes AWB to do what Shaw does on the left. Failure to consistently stretch team on both sides will show up as results against low block sides.
So those numbers are acceptable as equate to us winning football matches? How does giving the ball away 200 times impacts on others in the team? Would Pep or Klopp tolerate those numbers? I don't think so as it impacts on winning games when he isn't scoring or assists...maybe Semi or Finals? This isn't about Bruno, it's about being balanced and fair in our assessment of all players, not only ones we like.
Giving the ball away is costly anywhere on the pitch but again it's context. We allow others to do it cause it equates to them scoring or assists, yet Fred we don't cause the measure appears to be of less value. We don't concede many goals and Fred plays a massive part in that more so than any other midfielder. Matic, Scott and Pogs have had long periods injured yet Fred has been a constant. His best games are against the best teams irrespective of whether that suits his style of play, not sure why people take that away from him. That's like saying a forward only scores against the best teams.
Yes he has brain fart moments, yes there are better players out there in top clubs, but what he offers the team selflessly, is why he plays and why he starts for Brazil. If you read what players say about him like Neymar, fans would understand why.
Like said, he's not the best, but he's no way near as bad as people suggest.
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This really isn't the case.
The sample size is so small this season that there's not much use looking at them. Over the course of last season these were some of the stats in the league per 90 minutes (Pogba and VDB only when they played in the deeper roles):
Key Passes
Pogba - 0.97
Fred - 0.90
McTominay - 0.59
Matic - 0.57
VDB - 0.24
Expected Assists
Fred - 0.09
Pogba - 0.06
McTominay - 0.04
Matic - 0.03
VDB - 0
Actions that led to a shot
Pogba - 2.98
Fred - 2.52
Matic - 1.63
McTominay - 1.40
VDB - 0.24
Pass Completion
Matic - 91.3%
Fred - 90.1%
McTominay - 88.3%
Pogba - 85%
VDB - 84.5%
Your claim that 'Fred only ever attempts simple, square, short passes' is also incorrect, with him having the lowest percentage of short passes out of the five last season and a higher percentage of long passes than any but Pogba. He made more distance with progressive passes than VDB, McTominay or even Pogba last season. Matic was ahead of him there, but seeing as Matic basically spends half of the game sitting with the defenders that's to be expected. Fred also wins the ball back far more often than any of them.
VDB only played just over 4 full league matches in a deeper role last season so his stats are a very small sample size. But that's basically what you are trying to do this season. VDB has basically had one good match in the pivot in his entire time here, and that was against West Ham's second string team last week. I do hope it's the start of him coming good, but it's FAR too early to say yet.
Fred had a shit end to last season and the first few games this season. But his last couple of games have been better, and overall he's not even close to 'being blown out of the water statistically' as you try to claim.
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Right so how can Bruno make 200 misplaced passes if Fred hasn't given him the ball?
Fred was poor yesterday, but I have no idea how McTominaay isn't getting more pelters thrown at him. He was awful and did the one thing I hate...hide from the ball. Both aren't good enough.
Litch what exactly is your point here? Just state it, as you have been condescending towards anyone who thinks Fred and Scott are no good.
Is your argument actually that they are both good enough players for United after all, or is this just arguing for the sake of it?
True. I've said it many times, McFred is easily the worst passer of ball I've ever seen from any midfield of any top side.
Agree. Just this seasons fans scapegoat and the focus of people's frustrations cause they think Donny is better....
Arguing? More condescending than calling a player 'dog shite' or the worst player ever to wear a Utd shirt? I have no argument, my view is no better or worst than others as it's opinion and not a fact or a science. Good enough is subjective too?
Funny cause there are hundreds of pages saying they are not, yet Rozay you are suggesting I'm arguing for the sake of it? Would you feel the same or better if I just said they are shit too or would that be agreeing for the sake of it.
Bizarre comment on a public forum full of fecking opinions....
Those are not really the posts you are responding to though. You are responding to any footballing arguments suggesting their passing isn’t up to it, their defending isn’t up to, ultimately - they are not up to it. You are taking issue to it, so I was just asking you to state your own opinion of these players.
Of course, ‘good enough’ is subjective, literally, it is a matter of opinion. Which is why I am asking you for yours. Challenging everyone who has stated theirs is all good, I’d like to see you put your own on the table. My suspicion is that if/when you do - it will probably be in agreement with those you are so intent on challenging, which is why I said arguing for the sake of it. Either that of course, or I’m wrong and you just wholeheartedly disagree and feel that McTominay and Fred are deservedly United fixtures and have little issue with it. At least then we can challenge your position in return.
It’s one thing to call out the language used, like ‘shite’ etc, and another to question all stats, say they are out of context etc and provide counter arguments to the assertion that these players are shite. But if two people ultimately agree that a player isn’t good enough then they shouldn’t be arguing that point with each other I’d have thought.
Weirdly enough, the Matic — van de Beek pairing may actually be our best option (or the least worst), despite Matic having the mobility of a training cone. Throwing van de Beek in is probably the best thing that we can with the resources on hand, the issue is that his playing style is focused on the Dutch interpretation of spatial control and neither Pogba, Fred or McTominay know how to play that way. And you can't execute that style on your own, which is very much evident by van de Beek's performances for us that were largely underwhelming.
What annoys me is that they doesn't want to try any long ball to the other flank. Whenever we want to switch the play, the ball has to go back to our CBs, then to the FB. It hurts our attack a lot as when the ball finds our wingers or fullbacks, the opponents have already adjust positions. It's just too predictable.
I know they are limited, but they can't be that bad, can they? These passes are the basic ones, they don't even need to have pinpoint accuracy.
I know they are limited, but they can't be that bad, can they? These passes are the basic ones, they don't even need to have pinpoint accuracy.
It isn't that deep and I've already commented numerous times including this one as well as the many others started on here saying the same thing. The rest is all up for discussion without any need for justification. Like said, it's not that deep and been on the planet for over 50 years to think anything different on social media. No need to call me out mate, if that's the case, you'd do nothing else. I'm not here to convince you or others otherwise.
Some of you really underate importance of a manager. There are lots of things which can be done regarding two dmc;
1) Put Pogba as one of them. Under Jose and for France he did well there. Put Donny there. If somethong is not working thst doesn't mean that it is player's fault. It is about coaching most of times
2) Is there a rule that we must play 4231? Play 352, 433, 4141....there are a lot of options there.
1) Put Pogba as one of them. Under Jose and for France he did well there. Put Donny there. If somethong is not working thst doesn't mean that it is player's fault. It is about coaching most of times
2) Is there a rule that we must play 4231? Play 352, 433, 4141....there are a lot of options there.
Well you’re not really being ‘called out’. This is a thread on Fred and McTominay which you have posted a lot in and I’ve only asked for your view on these players so I can understand where you are coming from.
But indeed, it isn’t that deep. None of this is. Just seems to bother you (relatively speaking, in the context of a football forum) when others speak against these players. I’m not asking you to convince me of anything. This is an exchange of views and I just thought it would be useful to have yours, not that it is more or lesser than anyone else’s.
Way too much this season. Win possession, feel sorry and give it back , Run. Even worse, win ball in the middle and give it closer to our box.
Are you reading with the sole intention of arguing or to understand. In the very same paragraph where I explained Bruno's wastefulness I also stated that the manager should be talking to him about cutting out that habit, meaning I have a problem with it too even if I find it somewhat tolerable given his role and output.
K. McFred are the answer, Matic & Donny are crap and it's just coincidence that we control the midfield with those 2 when we play our B team.
They've played together a grand total of four times.
0-1 loss against West Ham in the League Cup.
1-2 loss against Basaksehir in the CL last season.
1-2 loss against Leicester in the league last season.
2-1 win against Wolves in the league last season.
Cheers. Lost count from watching us so its good to have these. I dont think it would be so bad if he was a creative player trying to get things happening in the final third but most of these are in our own half. Midfield just doesnt tick with him in the side. It forces maguire and varane to try and pass it out. Villa pressed to exploit that yesterday
Bad W/L record because Ole plays them with the 2nd string. Our first team defends well and creates no chances but is clinical with them because the defence and forwards are good. Our 2nd string dominates the midfield and creates chance but doesn't score them and concedes goals in the minimal chances we give up because the defence & forwards are poor but the midfield is strong. You'd think Ole would have the sense to combine the positives but clearly not.
We keep arguing about Fred and it is obvious that most don't rate him enough. Would he play for Shitty or Chelsea? Not a chance.
Neither of them are good enough on the ball, case closed. Scott hasn't played much this season so I'll give him time. But Fred, I've never seen a defensive midfield player give away the ball as much, it is also crazy how much he loses duels even when it's 60/40 in his favour. Fred works hard but he is not a good player.