The McFred midfield duo

[MadDogg]

Bad W/L record because Ole plays them with the 2nd string. Our first team defends well and creates no chances but is clinical with them because the defence and forwards are good. Our 2nd string dominates the midfield and creates chance but doesn't score them and concedes goals in the minimal chances we give up because the defence & forwards are poor but the midfield is strong. You'd think Ole would have the sense to combine the positives but clearly not.

The only midfields they 'dominated' was a second string West Ham and a Basaksehir team who got their only points of the CL in that match (a game where we had plenty of our first team playing). Matic can barely play 45 minutes a week, and spends huge portions of a game just sitting in defence (probably because he can't keep up with play in the midfield). VDB has massively struggled to get into most of the games that he's played and has mostly played the most simple sideways passes imaginable (far worse than Fred or even McTominay do).

There were a few signs towards the end of last season and the start of this that VDB might be starting to get acclimatised. The match against West Ham earlier in the week is probably the best match that he's had for us. I hope that he does get more chances soon and it turns out that that is the case, and from here on he might be an important player in our midfield. But pretending that has always been the case is a very false narrative.

 

[Maticmaker]

The McFred is OK when all they have to do is break up the oppositions play, but when they have to create and move us forward, its hopeless.

There is some hope for McT, e.g. a younger Matic beside might help him up his game in terms of going forward, but Fred is a one speed destroyer, he has his uses in certain games; however, when he is in our final third he is likely to give away a free kick, when he is in the opposing final third he has to be content in playing short 'wall' type passes and often gets it wrong even then.

Fred is one of our most hard workers, but he is only ever going to be a second streamer.

 

[Escobar]

The McFred is OK when all they have to do is break up the oppositions play, but when they have to create and move us forward, its hopeless.

There is some hope for McT, e.g. a younger Matic beside might help him up his game in terms of going forward, but Fred is a one speed destroyer, he has his uses in certain games; however, when he is in our final third he is likely to give away a free kick, when he is in the opposing final third he has to be content in playing short 'wall' type passes and often gets it wrong even then.

Fred is one of our most hard workers, but he is only ever going to be a second streamer.

But they don't! We get overran and dominated in almost every game. So what do they really do well?

 

[croadyman]

SPLIT IT UP

 

[Litch]

Well you’re not really being ‘called out’. This is a thread on Fred and McTominay which you have posted a lot in and I’ve only asked for your view on these players so I can understand where you are coming from.

But indeed, it isn’t that deep. None of this is. Just seems to bother you (relatively speaking, in the context of a football forum) when others speak against these players. I’m not asking you to convince me of anything. This is an exchange of views and I just thought it would be useful to have yours, not that it is more or lesser than anyone else’s.

I think Fred and Scott generally contributed to 3rd and 2nd, semi's and finals. We have beaten City home and away and some big teams in CL with them in midfield. You don't win things at the highest level with 10 men. Are they good enough to win the CL or PL, my view is under Ole probably not as he needs better quality in every position to make up for his lack of experience imo. I guess for me I think some only appear to see their failing whilst not recognising that when we celebrated the wins and Ole at the wheel, they were on the bus.

 

[Litch]

But they don't! We get overran and dominated in almost every game. So what do they really do well?

I'll ask it again, how do you get to 3rd and 2nd in the league with a midfield that's gets dominated most games?

 

[Bebestation]

I think we need to give Matic more first half's to play with Pogba.

We are never scoring in the first half so we need more attackers in the first half.

Get Sancho on the left.

Matic and Pogba in the middle.

Then bring Mctominay on for Matic when the whole 11 both ours and opposition are tired.

It' should make Mctominay better at defending it.

 

[bosnian_red]

I'll ask it again, how do you get to 3rd and 2nd in the league with a midfield that's gets dominated most games?

With enough quality difference makers in attack and good defensive players to score enough goals and keep enough out. But we pretty much never control games, which is the job of the midfield. We have better players than most opposition and that does the job most of the time, that's about it

 

[DJ_21]

I think we need to give Matic more first half's to play with Pogba.

We are never scoring in the first half so we need more attackers in the first half.

Get Sancho on the left.

Matic and Pogba in the middle.

Then bring Mctominay on for Matic when the whole 11 both ours and opposition are tired.

It' should make Mctominay better at defending it.

I agree, I think pogba and matic midfield gives more balance aswell, matic is decent at controlling games, only thing with him is him bein slow so isn’t good against opposite midfielders that have energy. Playing pogba in mid aswell gives us more creativity and allows an extra winger.

 

[Litch]

I think we need to give Matic more first half's to play with Pogba.

We are never scoring in the first half so we need more attackers in the first half.

Get Sancho on the left.

Matic and Pogba in the middle.

Then bring Mctominay on for Matic when the whole 11 both ours and opposition are tired.

It' should make Mctominay better at defending it.

I like Matic but Pogs leaves whoever he plays next to in the shite in PL. Doesn't track back and have seen him conceded penalties and free kicks when he does.

 

[Litch]

With enough quality difference makers in attack and good defensive players to score enough goals and keep enough out. But we pretty much never control games, which is the job of the midfield. We have better players than most opposition and that does the job most of the time, that's about it

Is this the same defence that people called Lindelof in? You know the defensive players are Scott and Fred too. I guess the historical unbeaten away record is nothing to do with them either? It's comments like this why it's absolutely pointless even entering into any discussion, but you are right like others, we had that great a team we could play with 10 men and still fluke an historical away unbeaten record. My apologies.

 

[lex talionis]

The McFred problem is at the root of why we’re struggling at the moment. They’re clearly struggling to find form. McTominay just doesn’t look fit. Fred is going through through a bad spell, though he has improved from woeful to only poor.

When a player is out of form one risk to take is to keep playing him back into form. Ole is making the bet that McFred, who together have played well in the past, will regain their form. It didn’t work out for us yesterday.

All that said, against clubs like Villa we don’t need two high energy but limited midfielders like McTominay and Fred. We talked about this before the game and the game unfolded as expected, although the result itself was a surprise. Ole should have gone with Fred (McTominay does not look fit) and Donny, who’s a substantially superior midfielder than either Fred or McTominay when we have the ball in the final third.

 

[Bebestation]

I like Matic but Pogs leaves whoever he plays next to in the shite in PL. Doesn't track back and have seen him conceded penalties and free kicks when he does.

So who is the alternative in your eyes?

Who would you use as our midfield?

I also think that since Ronaldo has come that Bruno isn't playing like a Support striker and is playing more like a creator for him - so he can drop deeper and it wouldn't effect us all as much as people might be scared about.

Bruno works really hard and he should be able to cover some of Pogba's inadequate midfield work sitting together in front of Matic or Mctominay.

 

[Zoo]

Ole deserves all the criticism for using it at home against Aston Villa. But that sums up where are, we don’t and can’t play as a a dominant team. The mentality is all about how robust we are and being the fitter team by 90 minutes, Ole repeats that ad nauseam.

 

[Rozay]

I think Fred and Scott generally contributed to 3rd and 2nd, semi's and finals. We have beaten City home and away and some big teams in CL with them in midfield. You don't win things at the highest level with 10 men. Are they good enough to win the CL or PL, my view is under Ole probably not as he needs better quality in every position to make up for his lack of experience imo. I guess for me I think some only appear to see their failing whilst not recognising that when we celebrated the wins and Ole at the wheel, they were on the bus.

This may be true, and from the prism of a different club, perhaps even a success. The question though, isn’t whether they are ‘good’ - it’s whether they are good enough. It’s all relative to the standard. If I took both to Power League this evening, they’d almost certainly be amongst the ‘good’ players. For a club that aspires, and spends, to be first - I’m not sure them being a part of a group of players that finish second and third is even the greatest tribute. The question around United is more a question of ‘why can we only finish second and third’ - not to celebrate these positions. And one of the most frequently given answers to that question is the midfield area not being good enough.

Having a midfield that is only good enough to get into a Champions League spot but not realistically good enough to win it or the PL is literally not good enough for Manchester United. You say we ‘don’t win things at the highest level with 10 men’, but you’d have to remind me what we’ve won. Because we haven’t been good enough to win anything, and I doubt we will be good enough to win anything again. So the analysis doesn’t start from ‘what do they do so well that they don’t finish 20th’, it starts from ‘what do they not do well enough that they don’t finish first?’. The margins will be smaller at that end, and the lack of top quality in our midfield is the obvious difference, in addition to what we have on the touchline, frankly.

 

[bosnian_red]

Is this the same defence that people called Lindelof in? You know the defensive players are Scott and Fred too. I guess the historical unbeaten away record is nothing to do with them either? It's comments like this why it's absolutely pointless even entering into any discussion, but you are right like others, we had that great a team we could play with 10 men and still fluke an historical away unbeaten record. My apologies.

Fred and McTominay do an OK defensive job, but not anything extra amazing I would say. We would be more solid and balance overall with someone like Rice in there next to a more proactive player, but anyway. Lindelof is a decent player but obviously not top tier.

The unbeaten away record is a fluke that is down to the covid situation and playing behind closed doors for 1.5 seasons. You are kidding yourself if you think we would have had that record with fans in the grounds. It was still impressive of course, but it also ultimately led to nothing. No trophies last year, knocked out of the group stage of the CL, finished on 74 points never really in a title challenge. Fred and McTominay are decent players, yes, but they aren't the reason we have been a comfortable top 4 team the last couple of years. That would be Rashford, Bruno, Shaw and Maguire the main helps to that. Move those players to lower teams and they get a huge plus. Move Fred and/or McTominay to lower teams and you won't see much of an improvement in them. I could easily argue that we don't have a top 10 midfield duo. Going through the entire league, I'd take all of these ahead of either Fred or McTominay (or both in some cases) to give us a better balance in midfield or better control:

• Arsenal - Partey, Xhaka
• Aston Villa -
• Brentford -
• Brighton - Bissouma
• Burnley -
• Chelsea - Kante, Jorginho, Kovacic
• Palace -
• Everton - Allan, Doucoure
• Leeds - Phillips
• Leicester - Ndidi, Tielemans, possibly Soumare?
• Liverpool - Fabinho, Thiago, Henderson, Keita
• City - Gundogan, Fernandinho, Rodri
• Newcastle -
• Norwich -
• Southampton - Ward-Prowse
• Spurs - Hojbjorg
• Watford -
• West Ham - Rice
• Wolves - Ruben Neves

And there's a good chunk others like Douglas Luiz, Ndombele, Lo Celso, Soucek, Moutinho who are no worse than those 2 either. That's a shockingly large list of deep midfielders who would in most cases, walk in ahead of Fred or McTominay in our team to improve us on the ball or off the ball. Take your pick. They're a mid table midfield pairing who provides energy to balance an attacking unit and defensive unit that is now of serious title challenging caliber, though of course the coaching has to match that as well.

 

[Litch]

So who is the alternative in your eyes?

Who would you use as our midfield?

I also think that since Ronaldo has come that Bruno isn't playing like a Support striker and is playing more like a creator for him - so he can drop deeper and it wouldn't effect us all as much as people might be scared about.

Bruno works really hard and he should be able to cover some of Pogba's inadequate midfield work sitting together in front of Matic or Mctominay.

Agree like for Portugal, might lose something from Burno though. Would be a massive change in the managers mentality though and whilst it was easier to take the risk when he was the caretaker, not so sure when he became the manager...

 

[Lee565]

It's funny but such claims that ole wants to play the united way, he has actually chosen the worst options for a midfield pairing in terms of ability on the ball.

Ole has gone mainly with mcfred and before that it was two out of Pereira, fred and mctominay.

Mourinho went with a pairing out of matic/pogba/herrera

Van gaal - 2 out of Schneiderlin, rooney, Carrick, herrera, blind and schweinsteiger

Moyes - 2 out of fletcher, fellaini, carrick.

 

[Litch]

This may be true, and from the prism of a different club, perhaps even a success. The question though, isn’t whether they are ‘good’ - it’s whether they are good enough. It’s all relative to the standard. If I took both to Power League this evening, they’d almost certainly be amongst the ‘good’ players. For a club that aspires, and spends, to be first - I’m not sure them being a part of a group of players that finish second and third is even the greatest tribute. The question around United is more a question of ‘why can we only finish second and third’ - not to celebrate these positions. And one of the most frequently given answers to that question is the midfield area not being good enough.

Having a midfield that is only good enough to get into a Champions League spot but not realistically good enough to win it or the PL is literally not good enough for Manchester United. You say we ‘don’t win things at the highest level with 10 men’, but you’d have to remind me what we’ve won. Because we haven’t been good enough to win anything, and I doubt we will be good enough to win anything again. So the analysis doesn’t start from ‘what do they do so well that they don’t finish 20th’, it starts from ‘what do they not do well enough that they don’t finish first?’. The margins will be smaller at that end, and the lack of top quality in our midfield is the obvious difference, in addition to what we have on the touchline, frankly.

Maybe it's just me. I look at the sum of the parts rather than just individual ones. I believe to sustain winning normally comes from learning losing. I think what you want to see is incriminatal progress improving each year. Whilst it's not celebrating failure, its recognition of improvement and gives you something to build on and stability.
I honestly don't think that not finishing first or finals was down to the midfield, city and Chelsea were far superior to us from their respective managers to their squad depth.
Further question for me is have our manager and our best players played well enough or made the big decisions when it matters, and the question I think is no. That question still remains even this season already.
My reference to winning things was football games, not trophies.
Can we improve on McFred, most definitely but my view is some people think replacing them solves our issues and turns us into a prem winning side, it doesn't.
The margins do get smaller but that's also based on the rest of the cogs in the system being right. It's arguable that we don't have a system or at least one that works consistently. That system is not built around McFred. Also if as you say, the quality is poor by who constructs the system, frankly we could have Rice and Kante, in the same way like varane and CR along with Sancho, it's just looks good on paper but disjointed on the pitch.

Just an opinion....

 

[RedorDead21]

He never recovered from the Spurs thrashing.

 

[kouroux]

@bosnian_red I'm surprised you didn't even add McGinn on yesterday's showing

 

[AneRu]

Agree like for Portugal, might lose something from Burno though. Would be a massive change in the managers mentality though and whilst it was easier to take the risk when he was the caretaker, not so sure when he became the manager...

But isn't this how we were playing when Bruno first came in, particularly after the restart? I think then he played a bit deeper and Martial did his false nine thing then both Bruno and Rashford would run ahead leaving Martial to play some nice intricate balls to Rashford. But the bottom line is that his starting position was deeper than what he is doing recently.

 

[Sandikan]

I'll ask it again, how do you get to 3rd and 2nd in the league with a midfield that's gets dominated most games?

Because people ate horribly knee jerk? And after every non win there's this wide annihilation of everyone to do with the club.

Although yesterday felt such a low, even I'm struggling to maintain positivity.

 

[kopviolator]

73m for Sancho, 35m for VDB and 37m for Diallo is frankly bizarre. 140m investment on players who can't make the starting team. It goes without saying that development of these guys to the point they'll make it here is hardly secured, especially if they're not playing.

 

[Escobar]

I'll ask it again, how do you get to 3rd and 2nd in the league with a midfield that's gets dominated most games?

Very often we only played to counter and had attacking players who were not relying on a midfield

 

[MadDogg]

It's funny but such claims that ole wants to play the united way, he has actually chosen the worst options for a midfield pairing in terms of ability on the ball.

Ole has gone mainly with mcfred and before that it was two out of Pereira, fred and mctominay.

Mourinho went with a pairing out of matic/pogba/herrera

Van gaal - 2 out of Schneiderlin, rooney, Carrick, herrera, blind and schweinsteiger

Moyes - 2 out of fletcher, fellaini, carrick.

Pereira has never been close to being first choice in midfield. The only time he had a run of games was in the first half of 19/20 when he was mostly played in more attacking positions (either #10 or right wing). He was actually deserving of the gametime because he was the best performing of the bad options we had at the time. He only dropped back into the midfield for a few games when we had a huge amount of injuries there and he and Fred were the only ones fit.

Ole started off with all three of Matic/Herrera/Pogba, and then when Herrera got injured and then left it was mostly Matic-Pogba. Injuries to both meant Fred-McTominay got a long run of games together, before we went back to Matic-Pogba after lockdown. Their poor form meant we went back to McFred early in the 20/21 season, with Matic and (to a lesser extent) Pogba not performing well enough since then to change that combo being first choice.

 

[kouroux]

Because people ate horribly knee jerk? And after every non win there's this wide annihilation of everyone to do with the club.

Although yesterday felt such a low, even I'm struggling to maintain positivity.

Honestly for me, even after many good results with McFred, I was never convinced that this pair would allow us to reach titles and cup dreams. I never wanted to voice those concerns because making a thread on this would have been seen as someone being a hater basically.

In a one off game, they can perform but over a long period? They're not good enough together. I don't blame them tbh, I'm sure they do their best.

 

[Abraxas]

The problem is that it's not clear there is a viable alternative. There are only similarly compromised partnerships, the only thing you do is flip around the strengths and shortcomings in a different way.

Now, is it sometimes a good idea to do that? Quite possibly. We know Matic can give us better passing. Or maybe we can punt on VDB, he's put in a few 6/10s and maybe with more time it becomes better for him.

Moaning about this partnership is like barking at the moon, we all know it has some poor games and serious problems. But so do the others that we've tried, so until we sign somebody I'm relatively comfortable seeing it.

 

[United Irishman]

So who is the alternative in your eyes?

Who would you use as our midfield?

I also think that since Ronaldo has come that Bruno isn't playing like a Support striker and is playing more like a creator for him - so he can drop deeper and it wouldn't effect us all as much as people might be scared about.

Bruno works really hard and he should be able to cover some of Pogba's inadequate midfield work sitting together in front of Matic or Mctominay.

This is the essence of the problem. As bad as McFred are, Bruno plays far too high up the pitch. He leaves the others too exposed, I'd play him 10 yards deeper at least. Bruno's individual performance has been sensational but no other top team would allow him to play so close to the striker. Add Ronaldo, Pogba and Greenwood in to the mix (not great at contributing defensively) and it's no wonder McFred look worse than ever. I can't pick a line up from our current squad that looks balanced. The coaching ticket need a tactical masterstroke or they'll be gone by Christmas.

 

[YeahYeah]

Midfield unfortunately is the crux of why we are bad and it demonstrates Ole's incompetence more than anything.
Would just like to dispel a few myths and narratives that Ole convinced us to be true but it couldnt be further from reality.

Its that we just dont have capable midfield players and therefore we need to patch it up with McFred. At first narrative was it cant work cuz Lindelof and Maguire are slow, now its that we just cant work unless we have 2 Kante's.

Pogba and VDB are pefectly fine midfielders. Its not true that Pogba only plays with Kante for France, narrative is Kante covers so much ground so Pogba can work.
He played lately in the midfield duo with young 21 yeat old Tchoumani. Worked perfectly well.
So do we sign Tchoumani, would that work? We know the answer to that, it wouldnt.

Look at Chelsea. They play sometimes without Kante, with the midfield trio of Kovacic, Jorghino and Mount. Are you really telling me thats more defensive than Pogba, Bruno, VDB would be? Thats ridiculous.

The reality is we have no midfield structure whatsoever and it exposes Ole so much.
Both Pogba and VDB are perfectly capable midfield players but we act like we need 2 Kantes.
Conte is the obvious answer now. He knows how to win plus he is the first coach to use Pogba well. The man knows how to do it, its time for a change. We shouldnt believe Oles narratives about our midfield, just excuses. Truth is he is a PE teacher.

 

[Sandikan]

Pogba and one of McFred should be by far the best combo, but neither of McFred have the attributes to cover for Pogba's weaknesses. In fairness, you'd need to be a worldy to do that.

In the big games we can still field McFred, but in the games against anyone else, especially at home we need to just go with one of them.
Once Rashford is back, and if Sancho is up to speed, I dare say we'll do that.

 

[YeahYeah]

Pogba and one of McFred should be by far the best combo, but neither of McFred have the attributes to cover for Pogba's weaknesses. In fairness, you'd need to be a worldy to do that.

In the big games we can still field McFred, but in the games against anyone else, especially at home we need to just go with one of them.
Once Rashford is back, and if Sancho is up to speed, I dare say we'll do that.

I dont really buy that. Pogba needs to play with someone more defensive but he is not the liability we make him out to be.
He plays perfectly fine with young 21 year old Tchouamani for France.
Ole would have us believe we need 2 Kantes and only then can we have a formidable midfield.
Meanwhile Tuchel often plays with Jorghinho, Kovacic and Mount. It can work.

I do think both Pogba and VDB are perfectly capable. Ole convinced us theyre not to cover for his weaknesses and give himself excuses.

 

[Sandikan]

I dont really buy that. Pogba needs to play with someone more defensive but he is not the liability we make him out to be.
He plays perfectly fine with young 21 year old Tchouamani for France.
Ole would have us believe we need 2 Kantes and only then can we have a formidable midfield.
Meanwhile Tuchel often plays with Jorghinho, Kovacic and Mount. It can work.

I do think both Pogba and VDB are perfectly capable. Ole convinced us theyre not to cover for his weaknesses and give himself excuses.

Pogba tends to really dwell on it, and constantly lose it in really dangerous places. Probably not all his fault, as there often aren't enough runs off him, but we've seen it for years now.

Having Varane's extra pace back there helps, but for a supreme talent, the majority of the talk is always about fitting him in, when you'd think he should lift everyone else's games.

 

[Litch]

Pogba tends to really dwell on it, and constantly lose it in really dangerous places. Probably not all his fault, as there often aren't enough runs off him, but we've seen it for years now.

Having Varane's extra pace back there helps, but for a supreme talent, the majority of the talk is always about fitting him in, when you'd think he should lift everyone else's games.

It's interesting cause Pogs on paper should be the ultimate number 6.....

 

[Borys]

Whatever happens, we need to break the "Fred-McTominay / Matic-Pogba" circle.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

It bugs me that all the blame always seems to get shifted to these two. It’s like people don’t see Bruno, Pogba being absolute turd at making offers or losing the ball every second. Not being close enough to get on 2nd balls because all their concerned about is getting the ball forward.

Any good team gives any man on the ball plenty of passing options. We do not hence we aren’t a great team and for some reason many people seem to struggle to see that The forward 4 are as big a part of the problem as these 2. We generally just have no clue what to do and are relying on punts over the top. We are just a collection of very good players without any real direction. The sooner people realise this the better.

 

[bugmat]

It bugs me that all the blame always seems to get shifted to these two. It’s like people don’t see Bruno, Pogba being absolute turd at making offers or losing the ball every second. Not being close enough to get on 2nd balls because all their concerned about is getting the ball forward.

Any good team gives any man on the ball plenty of passing options. We do not hence we aren’t a great team and for some reason many people seem to struggle to see that The forward 4 are as big a part of the problem as these 2. We generally just have no clue what to do and are relying on punts over the top. We are just a collection of very good players without any real direction. The sooner people realise this the better.

Totally agree - how good do people expect Fred or McT to look covering an entire third of the pitch because the 4 attackers we always play never press or drop to help them as a unit? Add to that when some of them do it's token jogging around (except Bruno who let's admit is as much a headless chicken as Fred can be? Add to that the defence is so laboured in passing out (looking at you captain) that for the CM to get the ball they have to drop right beside, further widening the gap between them and the forwards...this is why the ball ultimately usually ends up at fullback.. and AwB is not the best 1-2 footballer around. Shaw has been off form since the Euros too....

We are in a tough place, but it's a failing as a team. We need to develop a better system than the chaotic counter attacking we do.

 

[carlbcfc]

Kante rumoured to be ready to leave Chelsea…

 

[El Jefe]

This pairing has seen four seasons under Ole just think about that. It's hard to say this isn't what Ole wants when we've had a number of transfer windows since then.

To be fair to the they were good in 18/19 and 19/20 but last season it really got exposed and it was obvious teams had figured out our style. It's an abysmal midfield at the top level.

Without even looking at the teams above us, Rice/Soucek, Ndidi/Tielemans, Partey/Xhaka, D.Luiz/McGinn are either better on the same level as our midfield. Granted our options aren't the best but with VDB, Pogba and Matic being kept fit, I'm sure we can be better in midfield than we have for the last two seasons.

 

[captain666]

Lets hope Verratti is getting bored at PSG after 9 years!