Vaccinated Players

snk123

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Its the world we live in now. Misinformation is widely available and exaggerating vaccine issues, whilst glossing over the benefits is rife.
What a load of BS. It is in fact the other way round. There is incredible censorship on any debate or discussion of side effects of vaccines. Anyone who experiences side effects of vaccines (like the woman who died of myocarditis in New Zealand) is labelled as 0.001% - just a fecking stat - not a person.

And don't get me started on natural immunity. There is ample data (even a 700,000 study from Israel) that states that natural immunity offers a lot of protection - even better than vaccine. So those footballers with prior infection (Pogba, Ronaldo and others) have a right to say no to the vaccine. But the mere mention of this would result in the pro vaccine cult run after you.

Also before you start ridiculing me - I am double jabbed and have also had prior infection.
 

Ueanuwug

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That's selectively playing with Statistics now isn't it?

Israel has 80+% of its population vaccinated, so chances are that the ones who need hospitalization would be vaccinated more often than not. The absolute numbers have drastically reduced from the previous year when the virus broke out.

Would the scientific community have loved it for a vaccine to prevent all hospitalization, yes absolutely.

But should the fact that there are breakthrough cases stop anyone from taking the vaccine, no freaking way!

If you want to read about it a bit more - this article was pretty insightful - https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...srael-hospitalization-rates-simpsons-paradox/

While people do have the right to informed choice, their choices should have consequences. If you're not vaccinated, you shouldn't be allowed in a place of public usage (i.e. pubs, football grounds, theaters, malls etc.). Enjoy your choice inside your own homes.

Editing to add another quote that was particularly insightful
Assuming all these numbers are correct - which I don't know if they are. So if anyone has proper sources for those, feel free to post.

But under those numbers: If more than 80% of Israels population is vaccinated and around 85% of hospitalised people are of the group of vaccinated - doesn't that mean the vaccine doesn't provide any protection from being hospitalised?
 

Clique

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Assuming all these numbers are correct - which I don't know if they are. So if anyone has proper sources for those, feel free to post.

But under those numbers: If more than 80% of Israels population is vaccinated and around 85% of hospitalised people are of the group of vaccinated - doesn't that mean the vaccine doesn't provide any protection from being hospitalised?

Err.. The link I shared has the background dataset from the Israeli government (Language is in Hebrew though)

Also, 3 out of a million people who were vaccinated got hospitalized. 39 out of a million people who were not vaccinated got hospitalized. 13 times more likely to be hospitalized than not, if not vaccinated.

There are breakthrough cases, there's no denying that. The vaccines aren't foolproof, but they are a damn sight better than living without the vaccines. Every country that's attempted to go down the natural immunization has had higher death rates than the ones that have gone down the vaccine mandate route.



What a load of BS. It is in fact the other way round. There is incredible censorship on any debate or discussion of side effects of vaccines. Anyone who experiences side effects of vaccines (like the woman who died of myocarditis in New Zealand) is labelled as 0.001% - just a fecking stat - not a person.

And don't get me started on natural immunity. There is ample data (even a 700,000 study from Israel) that states that natural immunity offers a lot of protection - even better than vaccine. So those footballers with prior infection (Pogba, Ronaldo and others) have a right to say no to the vaccine. But the mere mention of this would result in the pro vaccine cult run after you.

Also before you start ridiculing me - I am double jabbed and have also had prior infection.
I assume this is the study you're talking about - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

The study (n=16,000) says if you had the delta virus, you had a higher immunity against the delta virus as opposed to the vaccines. However if you have some other variant of the virus, the vaccines were still your best course of resolving this pandemic.

I do feel bad for the folks who died because of adverse reaction to the vaccine, and they shouldn't just be a statistic, but the chances of such an adverse effect to the vaccine is so infinitesimally small that it shouldn't be the reason for someone not to take the vaccine. Make a statement that after the vaccine, people should be on the lookout for the subsequent 10 days to ensure no adverse side effect impacts their life and it'll make a lot of sense. But to say vaccines are less effective than natural immunity and to cite an adverse effect death as an effective reason for someone to be anti-vax is making a strawman argument at best.
 

Dan_F

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Excellent post.
Obviously you'll be ridiculed because there is a cult like attitude to anyone who even remotely tries to go against the mainstream view here or on any other forum.
Who’s been ridiculed? Presenting facts or questioning a viewpoint isn’t that, it’s simply a discussion. Unless you’re going equate chopping your balls off to prevent testicular cancer to getting a covid vaccine. Then it’s fair game to be ridiculed.
 

Lennon7

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This just shocks me... top-level teams have doctors that can surely explain to the players the risks vs the benefits... the benefits strongly out-weighing the risks.

Then again, perhaps the players would rather believe in what they read online than the actual doctors and scientists... similar to a large chunk of the population.
I don’t think they’re looking at it from a conspiracy nut job angle. Obviously some will, but they are probably just being selfish and prioritising their short term fitness.

To be fair, though, they’ll be regularly getting tested still and they will have protocols in place to prevent a spread. That would be just as effective as a vaccination if implemented into the general public but it’s not practical.
 

Solius

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What a load of BS. It is in fact the other way round. There is incredible censorship on any debate or discussion of side effects of vaccines. Anyone who experiences side effects of vaccines (like the woman who died of myocarditis in New Zealand) is labelled as 0.001% - just a fecking stat - not a person.

And don't get me started on natural immunity. There is ample data (even a 700,000 study from Israel) that states that natural immunity offers a lot of protection - even better than vaccine. So those footballers with prior infection (Pogba, Ronaldo and others) have a right to say no to the vaccine. But the mere mention of this would result in the pro vaccine cult run after you.

Also before you start ridiculing me - I am double jabbed and have also had prior infection.
This is like calling people who breath 'Pro-oxygen'. It's not a side.
 

DWelbz19

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Currently testicular cancer has a 95% five year survival rate. Unfortunately that does mean that 5% will die if they get testicular cancer. Orchidectomy (surgically removing your balls) can prevent death from testicular cancer in 100% of cases. Footballers are crazy for not chopping their balls off when there is overwhelming evidence for preventing testicular cancer and unlike the vaccine the protection from afforded from orchidectomy is permanent.
Hahaha this is amazing
 

Utd heap

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To be fair after reading this thread i'm tempted to chop my bollocks off just to act as a distraction.
 

Infra-red

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Football players have more to fear from COVID than they do from the vaccines.

One would hope that the team doctors at each club have presented the data and explained why taking the vaccine is the lower risk option.
 

Ueanuwug

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Err.. The link I shared has the background dataset from the Israeli government (Language is in Hebrew though)

Also, 3 out of a million people who were vaccinated got hospitalized. 39 out of a million people who were not vaccinated got hospitalized. 13 times more likely to be hospitalized than not, if not vaccinated.

There are breakthrough cases, there's no denying that. The vaccines aren't foolproof, but they are a damn sight better than living without the vaccines. Every country that's attempted to go down the natural immunization has had higher death rates than the ones that have gone down the vaccine mandate route.
As far as I can see here: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/israel/

The numbers seem not too far off of each other. So with the absolute numbers being relatively low - it still begs the question how effective the vaccines really are seeng the data. At least in Israel it doesn't seem too convincing. Maybe it looks better in other countries with high vaccination rates.
 

bosnian_red

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As far as I can see here: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/israel/

The numbers seem not too far off of each other. So with the absolute numbers being relatively low - it still begs the question how effective the vaccines really are seeng the data. At least in Israel it doesn't seem too convincing. Maybe it looks better in other countries with high vaccination rates.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/cdc-charts-show-pfizer-vaccine-works-against-covid-delta-2021-8?amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6171958

There is a massive difference between vaccinated individuals and unvaccinated at getting covid in the first place, but especially hospitalizations and deaths. As per the real data, assuming 1 vaxxed and 1 non vaxxed gets covid, the vaccine gives a huge reduction in chance for covid to have any long term effects, and a huge reduction in hospitalizations and death. You are 36 times more likely to be hospitalized if you are unvaccinated according to the latest data in Canada.

Anyone arguing against the vaccine at this point in time is doing so with their head in the sand and refusing to actually look at the real life data available all around the world after 3.5 billion vaccines have been administered.

Also FYI - Israel has been pretty much plateaus at about 60% vaccinated for a while now. There's been like a 5% increase in the past 4 months. That's a big reason for more spread.
 
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Pogue Mahone

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Under 13s have been excluded from the vaccines as per SAGE and MHRA recommendations. We are seeing double jabbed patients in ITU in the over thirties group. The vaccine which I have taken myself, works in reducing hospital admissions but it is only temporary. Some of the known side effects (myocarditis and CVST) can be permanent. This is the balance of risk footballers will have to assess. Of course if you mention this on Facebook, YouTube or Twitter you will be reprimanded or even banned.
That’s such an astonishingly stupid thing to say I’m struggling to believe you’re a doctor. Death is the most permanent of all outcomes. Guess what happens to a proportion of patients hospitalised with covid?
 

JakeC

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While the vaccinated figures mostly show 80% of population is it’s based on 16-100. All pro footballers that play in PL are under 35 with most being in their 20’s. They also are insanely fit also being monitored day in day out.
In Ireland people only 43% of people are under 30 are vaccinated. Young people tend it stay away
This is extremely misleading

What percentage of people under 30 are under the age of 16?

87% of people here are fully vaccinated.
 

golden_blunder

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What a load of BS. It is in fact the other way round. There is incredible censorship on any debate or discussion of side effects of vaccines. Anyone who experiences side effects of vaccines (like the woman who died of myocarditis in New Zealand) is labelled as 0.001% - just a fecking stat - not a person.

And don't get me started on natural immunity. There is ample data (even a 700,000 study from Israel) that states that natural immunity offers a lot of protection - even better than vaccine. So those footballers with prior infection (Pogba, Ronaldo and others) have a right to say no to the vaccine. But the mere mention of this would result in the pro vaccine cult run after you.

Also before you start ridiculing me - I am double jabbed and have also had prior infection.
Why did you get double jabbed if you’ve had prior infection?
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Also before you start ridiculing me - I am double jabbed and have also had prior infection.
Say what you will about people who die from covid after denying it's a thing: at least they put skin in the game.
 
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Flytan

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Why did you get double jabbed if you’ve had prior infection?
As someone else who is vaccinated, I think it's because a lot of people think people deserve the freedom to be an idiot if they want. Like I think you're dumb if you don't get vaccinated at this point, but I'm going to defend your right to be dumb as long as I can. I think social consequences are fair, example if a store/restaurant/business only wants vaccinated people to attend, that's perfectly fine. If you want to go against the norm, there are going to be consequences on your quality of life. I just don't think the government should ever force people into it. Should be society on their own and individual choice.
 

golden_blunder

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As someone else who is vaccinated, I think it's because a lot of people think people deserve the freedom to be an idiot if they want. Like I think you're dumb if you don't get vaccinated at this point, but I'm going to defend your right to be dumb as long as I can. I think social consequences are fair, example if a store/restaurant/business only wants vaccinated people to attend, that's perfectly fine. If you want to go against the norm, there are going to be consequences on your quality of life. I just don't think the government should ever force people into it. Should be society on their own and individual choice.
I can understand but not agree with that line of thinking but the particular poster is pushing the idea that the side effects of the vaccines are to be feared more than covid and natural immunity is fine, so wondering why he bothered getting double jabbed?
 

justsomebloke

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I would assume a lot of it has to do with risk-assessment. Essentially covid by now is a known entity with players who are pretty much 24/7 under any form of medical care.
Unlike us commoners this is a completely different background and thus the risk of covid becoming serious is so minimal at this point that teams and players seem to not consider the vaccine necessary for now. Especially in the context that many vaccinated report of feeling some form of exhaustion for some time afterwards - which is players will want to avoid at all costs to not be at 100% of his performance.
There is a good chance many more will do it during the next summer break I reckon.

Just an assumption, though.
there's been players who's had lengthy impacts of covid. Pigba and Henderson, to name two. If it's a risk assessment it's not a very good one.
 

snk123

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I can understand but not agree with that line of thinking but the particular poster is pushing the idea that the side effects of the vaccines are to be feared more than covid and natural immunity is fine, so wondering why he bothered getting double jabbed?
I am talking about young and healthy footballers who have had prior infection - not the general public or over 30s. The benefits for them at this time do not or very marginally outweigh the risks associated with a vaccine.
 

golden_blunder

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I am talking about young and healthy footballers who have had prior infection - not the general public or over 30s. The benefits for them at this time do not or very marginally outweigh the risks associated with a vaccine.
There are risks with any medications, just read the side effects on the leaflet to get a shock.
But we know the risks of the vaccine are less then the virus. They are literally gambling with their lives a d possibly others such as their family by not taking it. So i feel that your posts are passing a lot of misinformation to others.
on the plus side for the footballers at least they get checked regularly by their clubs. Not something that others have the option off
 
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It's quite interesting sometimes seeing a post and having a look at their other posts.

Some posters are just so so angry. All the time. All the threads.

"You're an idiot", "you're stupid", "smart arse".


On vaccines, personally, I've got no idea why anybody wouldn't take them unless they had a medical condition where the vaccine could create a health risk. That includes footballers. I couldn't wait for mine/my families... I hunted down a drop in centre to have my second as soon as I could.

Are there possible side effects? Probably. People die from paracetamol.

Does the world say your chances of dying are lower with the vaccine (all other things being equal)? Yip.

No idea why footballers wouldn't take it. Surely they can't be so thick to avoid it in case they have a minor side effect.. over the chances of being seriously ill if catch CV
 

snk123

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There are risks with any medications, just read the side effects on the leaflet to get a shock.
But we know the risks of the vaccine are less then the virus. They are literally gambling with their lives a d possibly others such as their family by not taking it. So i feel that your posts are passing a lot of misinformation to others.
on the plus side for the footballers at least they get checked regularly by their clubs. Not something that others have the option off
There are risks with all medications but we're not forcing these medications on young healthy adults who have already recovered from the disease. I'm not passing misinformation - it is a fact that if you've had Covid, you are protected to an extent from all variants. At best, you can have one dose of the vaccine and get better protection than double jabbed individuals. The way prior infection is still ignored (deliberately) is again disingenuous and wrong.

I'm not advocating people avoid vaccines and try getting Covid instead.

I'll repeat, footballers who have already had covid, have recovered should have a right to say no to the vaccine because of its possible side effects (however rare). Calling them thick, idiots, selfish just shows how little empathy and understanding some people have.

Myocarditis at worst can possibly end a footballer's career. Brushing it aside as simply an "inflammation" is laughable to say the least.
 

snk123

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That’s such an astonishingly stupid thing to say I’m struggling to believe you’re a doctor. Death is the most permanent of all outcomes. Guess what happens to a proportion of patients hospitalised with covid?
That's an equally astonishingly stupid thing to say. We're talking about fit, healthy, footballers here. How many have died from Covid?
 

Rothbard

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Myocarditis at worst can possibly end a footballer's career. Brushing it aside as simply an "inflammation" is laughable to say the least.
Or their lives.

The fact that is has a mortality of 20% after one year, and 60% after five, is criminally undercommunicated
 

Pogue Mahone

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That's an equally astonishingly stupid thing to say. We're talking about fit, healthy, footballers here. How many have died from Covid?
And how many have died (or had permanent consequences) from being vaccinated? Implying that vaccines have permanent consequences and covid infection does not was the stupid thing to say. For footballers or anyone else.
 

mustaine

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Now, without starting a fire I think that taking the vaccine is not only a personal choice but a community one as well. That goes for everyone, including athletes. There are people who literally can’t take the vaccine for health reasons so taking a jab or two so most people can breathe a little easier and live a normal life for the most part is a no brainer in my book. Some people will obviously disagree but that’s my take.
 
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Just seen this stat posted.

@utdreport: Well-placed sources have revealed that just 30-35% of Premier League footballers have been vaccinated against coronavirus. At least two teams have no more than half a dozen players vaccinated, with others having less than half.

This is crazy, but totally matches what I said in past about players not taking up the vaccine.
Hardly shocking news that footballers are thick.
 

redrobed

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They should take into account the reason for not getting vaccinated.

Any player going round telling others to ‘do their research’ because they’re dismissing medical scientists off the back of what some preacher on YouTube is saying about Beyonce trying to track their movements shouldn’t be allowed to endanger others.
 

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Under 13s have been excluded from the vaccines as per SAGE and MHRA recommendations. We are seeing double jabbed patients in ITU in the over thirties group. The vaccine which I have taken myself, works in reducing hospital admissions but it is only temporary. Some of the known side effects (myocarditis and CVST) can be permanent. This is the balance of risk footballers will have to assess. Of course if you mention this on Facebook, YouTube or Twitter you will be reprimanded or even banned.
U13's have been "excluded" until the phase 3 trial data was back which it now is. I believe Pfizer for O5's and Moderna for O2's will start the approval process in various places very soon.

As for VITT with CVST and (AZ and J&J) and myocarditis (mRNA vaccines) they have been studied and in both studies the risks of getting covid far outweight the risks of the vaccines. Myocarditis is very rare and even then almost always very mild. In the case of VITT with CVST the risk of this from a covid infection is 60-230 times greater than from the AZ/JJ vaccines. Unless you are in a country that has totally eliminated (if there is one left) any vaccine is far better than no vaccine.

And by "mention" you actually mean trying to pass this nonsense off as a reason not to vaccinate. As anti-vax nonsense that is exactly what should happen if you post it.
 

Wibble

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I'm not telling people not to take the vaccine , I'm simply saying it is not as black and white an issue as the mainstream media makes it out to be, especially for those under 30.
It most certainly is very black and white as vaccination is not just a personal decision. You are making health decisions for others.

We should not ridicule those who chose not to have the vaccine.
I don't care if they are ridiculed or not but I do care if people too dumb to do the right thing aren't strongly encouraged to do the right thing, just as we encourage people to stop smoking or reduce drinking or wear seatbelts. Anyone not convinced to be vaccinated by now is probably never going to be convinced by mere facts, evidence or reason and that is where the government has a role. Vaccine passports, restrict access to schools, increase tax/medicare levies for the unvaccinated (and not just covid), or whatever it takes.

We live in what is supposed to be a free country. We don't force people to stop smoking even though it is suspected of causing others disease via passive smoking, we don't force people to stop drinking alcohol even though it is heavily linked to domestic violence and drink driving.
Governments intervene in all the cases you state so not a very good argument not to intervene with vaccination.
 

Wibble

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What a load of BS. It is in fact the other way round. There is incredible censorship on any debate or discussion of side effects of vaccines. Anyone who experiences side effects of vaccines (like the woman who died of myocarditis in New Zealand) is labelled as 0.001% - just a fecking stat - not a person.

And don't get me started on natural immunity. There is ample data (even a 700,000 study from Israel) that states that natural immunity offers a lot of protection - even better than vaccine. So those footballers with prior infection (Pogba, Ronaldo and others) have a right to say no to the vaccine. But the mere mention of this would result in the pro vaccine cult run after you.
What a load of BS. You compare 1 person to the millions already saved by vaccination. That makes zero sense.

And the data suggests infection can give as good immunity as vaccination but that is far from certain in all cases. And if you have been infected already it is likely that the very rare side effects will only be an issue if you didn't get good immunity from the infection. In which case you need vaccination.

And vaccination isn't a cult. What a stupid things to say. It as an essential and sensible health measure as it is for all other things we vaccinate for.
 

Wibble

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There are risks with all medications but we're not forcing these medications on young healthy adults who have already recovered from the disease. I'm not passing misinformation - it is a fact that if you've had Covid, you are protected to an extent from all variants. At best, you can have one dose of the vaccine and get better protection than double jabbed individuals. The way prior infection is still ignored (deliberately) is again disingenuous and wrong.

I'm not advocating people avoid vaccines and try getting Covid instead.

I'll repeat, footballers who have already had covid, have recovered should have a right to say no to the vaccine because of its possible side effects (however rare). Calling them thick, idiots, selfish just shows how little empathy and understanding some people have.

Myocarditis at worst can possibly end a footballer's career. Brushing it aside as simply an "inflammation" is laughable to say the least.
It is very very rare in the first place and when it does occur from vaccination it is almost universally mild and self corrects quickly. Even if the risks of side effects were comparable to those of infection (they aren't) not being vaccinated is taking decisions on behalf of others who can't get vaccinated or don't get a decent immune response e.g. the elderly.
 

Wibble

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That's an equally astonishingly stupid thing to say. We're talking about fit, healthy, footballers here. How many have died from Covid?
27 year old (not pro) footballer who was very fit and didn;t drink or smoke
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-04/sydney-man-aude-alaskar-died-from-covid19/100349184

14 and 17 year old US footballers die
https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_r...cle_0ac94f3e-05ec-11ec-8703-b7b66ad3dd22.html
https://www.cbs46.com/news/17-year-...cle_2e5f91d2-f63e-11eb-b322-f73ed0f66fa5.html

I seem to remember a 21 year old football coach dies in Spain of covid. There was a 36 year old Indian cricketer dies as did Cristopher Mansilla a 30 year old Chilean cyclist. Even for the fit and young the risk of vaccination is far less than the risk of Covid.
 

RedDevil@84

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No idea why footballers wouldn't take it
I think maybe footballers are worried that the multi-millionaire lives they lead may come to an abrupt halt if there are any unknown side-effects of vaccines.
They may not think the same about getting Covid-19 and building natural antibodies to it.

That's my guess though.
 

lawliet354

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If you don't have any health condition and the vaccine is available for you easily and you choose not to take it, then you're selfish idiot prick who doesn't care about the well-being of others around you.

You can justify it all you want, doesn't change the fact that by not being vaccinated you're one reason this pandemic will continue. The pandemic has been going for almost 2 years now, and yet there are still anti vax people spreading some bs misinformation, absolutely amazing the world we live in.
 
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NewYorkRed

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If you’re not vaccinated, you’re one, or all, of the following:
Uneducated
Not bright
Ill-informed
Selfish
Have a medical condition which doesn’t allow you to take it.

That’s it. I don’t respect people’s rights to pick and choose on this topic, because if your choice may directly affect my life in the way of possibly giving rise to a variant that my vaccine might not protect against, then your choice is not yours alone to make.

Don’t want it still? Fine. Stay at home, pay higher health insurance costs (the US did it for smokers), pay higher for plane tickets (you should cover the cost for the airlines’ increased cost to sanitize) etc.
 
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I think maybe footballers are worried that the multi-millionaire lives they lead may come to an abrupt halt if there are any unknown side-effects of vaccines.
They may not think the same about getting Covid-19 and building natural antibodies to it.

That's my guess though.
Maybe.

I'm reasonably sure that if they catch it, there'll be SOME side effects, possibly serious ... and they're not unknown. Never mind the risk to friends and family (the no 1 reason I wanted it).
 

Ueanuwug

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there's been players who's had lengthy impacts of covid. Pigba and Henderson, to name two. If it's a risk assessment it's not a very good one.
That's not how risk management works. You take the percentage of players who had serious long term impacts of covid and then compare it to the percentage risk the vaccines have. To just pick single players is anecdotal evidence. There are also cases of pro athletes with the vaccine having struggles. Doesn't mean it is bad. But your argumentation here is simply anecdotal and not worth anything.

Risk management works by comparing the data of those two together and then making a choice which is the "lesser evil". And I would assume in a billion dollar business that the teams and their medical staff does work on that risk assessment together with the players. In an ideal world at least.