One of the odd things about Ole, despite being big into United culture and club harmony, we actually look way less of a team than our rivals. Pep on the other hand seems to treat City much more like a job than a calling, yet look how well-knitted together those guys are on the pitch.
We are an awfully coached team
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
In my experience this is not the case. Its only online that people are having meltdowns at such an early stage of the season.
i sit next to a 'top red', at the Villa game he was calling Ole a negative cnut
It's absolutely not. It's also a myth that this is some sort of early season meltdown. Ole has shown no signs of learning in 3 years.
Nah my brother went last night and he said you can sense the tide is turning.
It's obviously no where near the meltdowns you get online but I think more and more Utd fans are starting to have doubts.
I love Ole , but unfortunately I just don't think he's quite good enough.
The biggest sign we are not coached properly is our "press".
In quotation marks because it is fecking shambolic. Bruno runs about 3 miles a game that is completely wasted because nobody is coordinating anything. He runs up, ball gets passed around him, he looks back to see other players 20 yards away making a half hearted effort.
Learning how to press effectively is not hard. Requires a bit of work on the training pitch. When you decide to do it, it should be natural for everyone, everyone knows where to go, what position to hold.
What happens with us is Bruno waves other players forward who don't see to really fancy it much and it all fails. It is so amateurish that either all the players are thick as pig shit and can't understand it, or we don't work on it at all. My bet is on the latter.
In quotation marks because it is fecking shambolic. Bruno runs about 3 miles a game that is completely wasted because nobody is coordinating anything. He runs up, ball gets passed around him, he looks back to see other players 20 yards away making a half hearted effort.
Learning how to press effectively is not hard. Requires a bit of work on the training pitch. When you decide to do it, it should be natural for everyone, everyone knows where to go, what position to hold.
What happens with us is Bruno waves other players forward who don't see to really fancy it much and it all fails. It is so amateurish that either all the players are thick as pig shit and can't understand it, or we don't work on it at all. My bet is on the latter.
Have to share this...when my son was 4 he told me he wanted to support Man City. With the ghosts of 3 generations of Utd fans at my back...I got his Pokemon backpack, put some clothes in it, his toothbrush, some custard creams which I knew he liked...and I placed it at the front door. I told him the last 4 years had been great and everything but he would have to go.
After a few tears, he saw the light and has been a Utd fan ever since. He is 12 now, and as we watched PSG and City the other night play football of such quality and conviction - the guilt that had been building over the previous 8 years got the better of me for the first time...I apologised to him. He looked puzzled...never seen his auld man so vulnerable before...he said don’t worry dad- I love Utd now and we are gonna batter Villarreal. I smiled and hugged him...and with a tear in my eye...I said “Shut the fuk up son...we have no patterns of play”.
Anyway- point being, watching top teams play good football just makes watching us ever harder.
After a few tears, he saw the light and has been a Utd fan ever since. He is 12 now, and as we watched PSG and City the other night play football of such quality and conviction - the guilt that had been building over the previous 8 years got the better of me for the first time...I apologised to him. He looked puzzled...never seen his auld man so vulnerable before...he said don’t worry dad- I love Utd now and we are gonna batter Villarreal. I smiled and hugged him...and with a tear in my eye...I said “Shut the fuk up son...we have no patterns of play”.
Anyway- point being, watching top teams play good football just makes watching us ever harder.
No need to go over the top. It ruins a point. You're suggesting he's learnt nothing since the day he walked through the door, which is obviously not the case
I think there is a general acknowledgement that expectations have increased this season. I feel the same way. I'm definitely not getting a sense that people have had enough though. Its natural that the crowd are reacting to a poor run of form. Happened under all of our managers, including the great man.
Cool story broYup. What has he learnt?
You clearly have a massive agenda against Ole, so I'm not going to go there with you.
Compelling argument.
Young boys and Istanbul Basaksehir not ring a bell?
Continuing with Scott and Fred even though that was the biggest priority this summer.
Persisting with this 4-2-3-1 formation which just doesn't work.
Beating Villarael by the skin off his teeth, Five wins in 12 champions league games.
Yea he's learning every day. Still 11 headless chickens on the pitch. Teams can setup against us cause they already know what system Ole is going to play.
I could go on and on.
The thing annoys me is Ole has shown in the past he has what it takes, such as coming out on top vs the likes of Pep (multiple times), Poch, Klopp, Jose, Tuchel, Ancellotti & Nagelsmann.
But recently Ive really come to question alot of his team choices/ substitutions. I know we all dont know whats going on behind the scenes with some of these players.. But he clearly has favourites and likes to persist with them. Its getting frustrating watching the same players looking clueless out there over and over again
He has to find some way to really get the best out of the higher level players such as Cavani (should be a starter), Sancho, Pogba, and even Ronaldo (he may have got the winner last night, but before that, and vs villa, he was pretty brutal)
But recently Ive really come to question alot of his team choices/ substitutions. I know we all dont know whats going on behind the scenes with some of these players.. But he clearly has favourites and likes to persist with them. Its getting frustrating watching the same players looking clueless out there over and over again
He has to find some way to really get the best out of the higher level players such as Cavani (should be a starter), Sancho, Pogba, and even Ronaldo (he may have got the winner last night, but before that, and vs villa, he was pretty brutal)
Like I said I know I'll be wasting my time with someone like you. If you really think that it's even possible that he's learnt nothing and is the same guy that walked through the door 3 years then I'll leave you to feel that way.
If it's so obvious what he's learned then please share it? As an oppo I certainly don't see much progress tactically.
Ha! I have the exact same guilt. Been a rough few years for 12 year old United fans whose friends all support City or Liverpool. Character building though. That’s what I keep telling myself.
I would also like to know the things he's so obviously learned during these three years.
Thank god you have Ronaldo but whether you sack Ole, he decides to leave, or whatever, you need to get a more progressive manager after him and stick to him and he doesn't work then at least get another manager with the same football style. Although most likely you're giving the job to Southgate or someone similar.
Ok, since you can't actually come up with an argument of your own how about you try deconstructing mine?
- He came in and we were shoddily zonal marking, were shocking at defending set pieces & had one of the worst records in the league when it came to conceding & scoring from set plays. 3 years on we're still statistically one of the worst teams at both attacking and defending set pieces. Nothing learnt.
- He came in & we actually did alright against the big teams with his park the bus counter attack football. After it became painfully obvious we had no plan B and everyone sussed us out our good results vs top teams dried up and we were utterly dreadful in the big games, getting the worst results against the other big teams in the league last season. Nevermind not learning, that's going backwards.
- He refused to let Romero leave to Everton for £10m, instead keeping him as 3rd choice & not even giving him a spot on the bench & then lost him on a free at the end of the year. It was a disgrace & our supporters all called it out as poor from Ole. He's now kept Donny at the club, blocking a late move to Everton, just to never use him. Repeating himself.
- Team was desperate for a proper winger for years, suffering from only having shot-taking inverted forwards. We sign a proper winger for over £70m & play him as an inverted forward.
- We never started games well under Ole & always had to go a goal behind before we started playing. 3 years later we're still waiting until we're a goal down to start playing football in most of our games.
- He was criticised for his poor handling of players when it came to them both getting injured & returning from injury. He hasn't changed. Has an abundance of depth but rotates poorly. McTominay is the latest great example, immediately thrown into a 90 minute match after returning from surgery, was piss poor & clearly miles off the pace but was then played a few days later in the very next game for 90 minutes again and to nobody's surprise he had another stinker.
- We were in dire need of a holding midfielder as soon as we immediately lost Ander on a free. Ole has spent £400m and how many holding midfielders has he brought in? Nobody. Can't see the forrest for the trees.
- 3 years & still no discernible style of play to the point where even his great protector, Gary Neville, has caved & said we have no style of play.
- Still leaves subs until far too late. Sometimes it works for him but he still watches us get dominated for 80-85 minutes before giving a player 5 or 10 minutes to make an impact.
- We were poor against the minnows of the CL group we were in last year & it got us knocked out. What have we done this season already against the minnows of our group?
- Still endlessly putting square pegs into round holes.
- We're still playing route one football with no buildup play. How often did we see Lindelof hoof it to Sancho as if he was trying to hit Peter Crouch?
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Seems more probable.
I had a family get together the other weekend. We're all mancs, and most of us are match goers, more or less frequently, so we talked football. This was even before the villa game. Basically, no-one thought we'd win the league and everyone thought Liverpool, City and Chelsea were better than us, simple as that. Noone suggested sacking Ole, much less talked about his coaching or patterns of play. But there was an acceptance that we were still behind the best and it didnt look like it was changing. I get the same vibe from friends. Most fans don't really think about sacking the manager until it gets truly toxic, like the last few days of Jose's time. But equally, I think those people who think its only a matter of time before we start winning big under Ole are a minority too.
Yeah at the Villa game people were really really frustrated . The ole song got sung once in the first 10 minutes and then never again. To say that stadium going fans are completely with him is definitely not true
These kind of posts really make me chuckle. Why on earth would I be hurt that De Gea is finding some sort of form? I don't have any problem giving the coaching staff credit where it's due and with De Gea they've done a good job but you seem to have some sort of problem when anyone criticises the team at all. If you open your eyes and actually see how we're playing and understand when criticism is warranted then maybe we can have sensible conversations because with some people they're so ingrained on Ole they forget about Manchester United.
He stumped you there Ole
Our pressing is so different to how other teams do it (successfully).
Our players run toward the player with the ball to make it look like they're pressing...rather than actually getting close enough to put any actual pressure on the player with the ball. And then as you said, it's so individual, that a simple pass is all it takes to completely evade any semblance of pressure.
After our first gal, we actually did start pressing them as a team, and for those 10 mins or so, Villareal looked a shadow of the side they looked in the rest of the game.
If you go back to the original comment I made, I simply asked if Ole and the coaching staff deserve credit for turning De Gea's career around?
You couldn't say just accept it.
I will also repeat my first response to you - it's six games into the league season you already stated they've failed Sancho - so lets get real here.
To the supports who’s Ole in, what is the bar for you? What needs to happen to make you change your mind about Ole? Let’s say we finish this season with no trophies again, would that be enough for you to want him out as well? What needs to happen for you to change your mind?
At the same time, you have the likes of Conte and Jose who often end up in conflict with the players and/or the ownership of the club
All i said really is that Ole needs to employ new coaches if he wants to keep his job, i dont get why thats so controverial?
De Gea was one of the best keepers in the world under LVG and Mourinho. According to your logic, don't Ole and his coaching staff deserve fair share of criticism due to DDG's poor form during previous seasons, before we praise them for turning his career around?
De Gea was one of the best keepers in the world under LVG and Mourinho. According to your logic, don't Ole and his coaching staff deserve fair share of criticism due to DDG's poor form during previous seasons, before we praise them for turning his career around?
Right, but what im saying is that its obvious our coaching is lacking. So either we swap the coaches or we swap the whole staff. If Ole leaves and Carrick and co remain, i'm not sure things are going to improve that much
Faria had little to do with the meltdown, but there was a noticable difference in how we played after he and Jose parted ways.
Its not even about 'poor coaching' at this point its like they are completely absent of it against anyone even slightly organised, Villareal were really unlucky not to be 4 or 5 goals up in that 1st half it was awful.
Just look at how lethargic and lost they looked out there, no idea how their is still belief in this hierarchy and the idea of 'united DNA'. The pressing is just woefully inconsistent and half hearted, the shape is even worse than last season and they literally cannot move and string passes together choosing instead to launch it long hoping for the best.
Personally i cannot fecking wait to see what comes from ditching this ENTIRE coaching staff, hopefully getting someone that can utilise this squad to its potential and actually attack teams in an organised manner. God knows who that would be right now but either way its a testament to how good these players actually are given they often still get results with the absolute mess they are expected to work with.
Just look at how lethargic and lost they looked out there, no idea how their is still belief in this hierarchy and the idea of 'united DNA'. The pressing is just woefully inconsistent and half hearted, the shape is even worse than last season and they literally cannot move and string passes together choosing instead to launch it long hoping for the best.
Personally i cannot fecking wait to see what comes from ditching this ENTIRE coaching staff, hopefully getting someone that can utilise this squad to its potential and actually attack teams in an organised manner. God knows who that would be right now but either way its a testament to how good these players actually are given they often still get results with the absolute mess they are expected to work with.
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Just thought I'd give it a stab at answering your points.
1) we are much improved at defending set pieces, still not perfect mind, but definitely better.
2) Again we're not perfect against the top teams but we had some good results against the top teams last season too.
3) It's not Oles job to make money, why would he sell to strengthen a potential rival? That'd be stupid. Likewise with Donny, what good does it do to send him out in loan and weaken our midfield resources?
4) We don't play with out and out wingers, but having a player natural on the right as Sancho is will assist the way we want to play.
5) Ole has eluded to this, he needs to find the answer.
6) Ole has used more players that Klopp and Pep last season, despite Liverpool's injury 'crisis'. This Ole doesn't rotate story is a myth.
7) We have only been after a midfielder this season, we brought in DVDB in the hope he could do a job, alas he can't. There were no realistic options available for the money United had this window.
8) this is debatable and subjective. We don't have a set style, but we do have a mode of playing. But it's funny how people laughed at Van Gaal talking about philosophies, yet now want a philosophy/style under Ole.
9) I don't know of a game we've been dominated in for the full 85 minutes? There may be games where we have been under pressure in moments, Ole has made mistakes with his subs, but has also won games with his changes.
10) we lost against the minnows but beat the team we lost to in the final last season, I'd call that learning.
11) Like whom? Everyone seems to be playing in their rightful place, Pogba possibly playing in a slightly unorthodox position but that'll probably change once Rashford is fit.
12) Not very often, considering Lindelof has barely ayes since Varane joined. We very rarely ay a long ball, quite often preferring to play it out from the back.
Also, if you do seriously believe that we are a route one team, doesn't that signify a style of play? So which is it, we have a style or We're not a route one team?
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How so? Our record last season was absolutely abysmal. We had the second-worst record in the league, only one behind Leeds.
Not looking particularly solid this season either.