I word it wrongly perhaps. My bad. What I'm trying to say I want the club to be I don't know more ruthless I guess? The romanticism is all good and fun but if I have to choose win titles or romanticism, I choose the latter.
Why are United fans so oblivious to importance of good managers?
- Thread starter MuFc_1992
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
its naive romanticism.
the same problem shared by liverpool fans 1990-2015 that led to their downfall.
the same problem shared by liverpool fans 1990-2015 that led to their downfall.
Chelsea possess a trait all successful businesses/football clubs have and that is ruthlessness. If they think a manager cannot give them more they are gone. They demand instant success. It was something Fergie had, look at the likes of Becks, Stam, Ruud etc. Of course you can be wrong but that's no excuse to not strive to be the best.
We are wasting time with Ole and with every passing performance, more people are coming to that realization.
Liverpool sacked a manager who took them to within an inch of the title to bring in a better manager.
City replaced a manager that won them the fecking title to get Pep.
If anything Liverpool are the example that Souness, Dalglish, and Roy Evans appointments are based on romantic bollocks. Once you start employing the best available and are prepared to move quick on available managers, you’ll more likely get back to the top that way.
Pep had a pedigree where you knew he would be successful. Klopp worked wonders at Dortmund and actually challenged Bayern for a few years. Being patient with them makes complete sense. Ole's made progress in the sense that he hasn't created a circus (yet) and spent money. His career involves getting Cardiff relegated embarrassingly (I think they got even worse after he was hired?) and managing in a minor league in Norway. We can't afford to be patient with someone like that (and we've already been more patient than City would have been, Liverpool saw drastic improvement in play where we haven't). I don't like being compared to Bayern because the league is essentially free for them. Madrid wins tons of trophies, not sure you want to use them as a reason to defend being patient with Ole.
I appreciate Ole coming in. When he was brought it it was leaked that "it is someone who will bring smiles to United fans". He did during his interim period here. He steadied the club after Mourinho left it in pieces but he should have never been hired permanently. Just look at why he was hired. He wasn't hired because the board thought he would be the manager to win trophies. He was brought in to finish off the season and he did that very well. But we should have made a footballing decision after that season (and 3 other times including current time/year) to replace him with somebody who can win trophies and we don't.
I watched Conte's Chelsea. You're the one who didn't watch it if you're one of the brigade who thinks he's an ultra defensive coach and all this bollocks.
And as for my opinion on other managers, I don't have to say them because ultimately I'm not the one who came here and told people to "shut the feck up and support the manager and the club". You have the right to support the manager if you like. I have the right to not support him if I think he's awful and we can do better. It's none of this poster's business to tell us to support the manager, and it's ridiculous to pair the manager with the club in one sentence as if they're one and the same. Managers come and leave, the club don't.
As for the bollocks about going to support Chelsea and City, there's no reply on this because it's just memorized bollocks whom some of you just repeat in front of mirror every night before going to sleep as a response on any person who wants a better manager for United. You have no other response than this.
I do think we need a new manager, but Who? That's the big?? Some say Conte, Zidane , then there throwing in Potter etc. I think the board doesn't know themselves what to do, Oles had a new deal. I think we have a top top squad as well, but so far it seems there's a split in the violin and there's the wrong tune coming from it.
You can't buy or essemble players and out them out on pitch and say off you go , it looks like that at times through a 90min match, clueless don't watch runners off the ball don't stop crosses and just ball watch. I'd give Ole till January because he needs to get a top CM , ship out Fred, put DVB out of his misery and get rid of him, use the money to get Rice or Bissouma.
If that still doesn't get things going in the right direction, then he has to go.
You can't buy or essemble players and out them out on pitch and say off you go , it looks like that at times through a 90min match, clueless don't watch runners off the ball don't stop crosses and just ball watch. I'd give Ole till January because he needs to get a top CM , ship out Fred, put DVB out of his misery and get rid of him, use the money to get Rice or Bissouma.
If that still doesn't get things going in the right direction, then he has to go.
So true and yet depressing as feck because i just can't see United seeing the absolute obvious in Ole being nowhere near good enough.
1) They sacked a manager who spunked the Suarez cash on shite and still got a season a bit
2) Going for Pep was a no brainer and was a plan they had years in the making, moreover they still gave Pellegrini the season
Do you think we play the United way because he tells you that or because of what you see with your own eyes? We don't play the United way & many ex-players, who played the United way week in week out, will attest to that. We play dire, boring, crap football and we don't even grind out results.
Hopefully Mendes and Ronaldo get him out the club as it's going to ruin his image and legacy.
The manager merry go round was very embarassing for alot of fans and though i think its good to back your man and give your manager time.. you need to make sure youve actually picked the right person.. ole shouldve never gotten the job.. he shouldve been sacked 4 times. We are giving him chances he doesnt deserve. Weve taken a good policy towards developing a good team but have done it under the worst manager possible. We would be better off with moyes.
I think everyone wanted this fairytale appointment to work, but there’s people who aren’t so blinded by the nostalgia and actually see what’s happening and are more grounded in reality.
I’d love it if OGS was our Guardiola/Barcelona moment but then when you get past the nostalgia and fairytale stuff and what’s actually in front of you… you see someone who seemingly never really had massive managerial aspirations after the Cardiff stint failed and he went back to Molde. It’s a strange career move to go back to Molde for someone who aspires to managing an elite club, and if he was serious about being a good manager, he’d have put his name out there after Cardiff.
I will give it to him that he has overperformed my expectations and has been part of building a better squad, but it feels like he’s not building a fluid team. It’s more like ‘the more individual brilliance I have, the better chance of winning I have’.
With OGS, I feel like he was happy and content to be Moldes manager long term until he didn’t feel like it anymore, but the phone call from Woodward in December 2018 was like handing him a £100m Euromillions winning ticket. I don’t think he has the right mindset to be an elite club manager. OGS probably views this as a massive free hit and a cash boost, knowing he won’t get an opportunity like this again and deep down knowing he’s lucky he got it in the first place. There’s probably managers out there who’d take this much more seriously and would do anything to get Utd better. They certainly wouldn’t be grinning and smiling about it like OGS does a lot of the time seemingly.
I’d love it if OGS was our Guardiola/Barcelona moment but then when you get past the nostalgia and fairytale stuff and what’s actually in front of you… you see someone who seemingly never really had massive managerial aspirations after the Cardiff stint failed and he went back to Molde. It’s a strange career move to go back to Molde for someone who aspires to managing an elite club, and if he was serious about being a good manager, he’d have put his name out there after Cardiff.
I will give it to him that he has overperformed my expectations and has been part of building a better squad, but it feels like he’s not building a fluid team. It’s more like ‘the more individual brilliance I have, the better chance of winning I have’.
With OGS, I feel like he was happy and content to be Moldes manager long term until he didn’t feel like it anymore, but the phone call from Woodward in December 2018 was like handing him a £100m Euromillions winning ticket. I don’t think he has the right mindset to be an elite club manager. OGS probably views this as a massive free hit and a cash boost, knowing he won’t get an opportunity like this again and deep down knowing he’s lucky he got it in the first place. There’s probably managers out there who’d take this much more seriously and would do anything to get Utd better. They certainly wouldn’t be grinning and smiling about it like OGS does a lot of the time seemingly.
I'm not really defending Ole, it's more the ethos that we need to emulate Chelsea despite Chelsea being full of shortcomings. If we're to emulate any club, I'd rather it be Bayern. I really feel like Chelsea's success papers over many cracks. Bayern genuinely look a team that can with the Champions League most seasons while Chelsea look like a team that put together a decent run before imploding.
After a lack of success maybe United fans might look a bit enviously at Chelsea but City are probably closer to what Fergie was doing and Liverpool were actually able to compete with a 100 point City team until the very end. I still have yet to see Chelsea reach the levels City or Liverpool have.
Never seen thread closed for giving an opinion here.
City also sacked their first trophy-winning manager in decades the moment things started to go south, and replaced him with Pellegrini. So that's a bad example all around.
So you would rather be like City? Interesting..
Chelsea fans don’t always agree with decisions taken at our club. But the truth is, the club know more than the fans and more often than not the decision is correct in hindsight. For that, I’m completely grateful that we do have a strong and competent board, that puts personal feelings and public opinion to one side to make correct business decisions.
If your club wants to continue with PR stunts about “the United way” that’s fine by them but ultimately that’s not going to win you any prizes. Success comes to those who adapt to change and this is not 1990/2000s.
It boils down to this question for me. Would Ole ever have kept this job if he wasn't a Utd legend ? The answer is no for me
This is not an United way.
Ole having a big grin few minutes before full time isn't an United way.
Not creating a single chance or very few isn't an United way.
And not winning anything isn't either.
Not to mention the way we play.
yeah I find that very weird as well. I think it's about Fergie, we believe that it will be fixed as long as we give the manager time. Fergie wasn't the most tactical as well, that could be a reason too.
If you don’t like it go elsewhere
I personally don’t agree with you though. There is a difference between allowing negative whining in every thread or doing something different. We ask people to give constructive feedback, it’s not difficult.
Bayern look like they can win the champions league every year because Germany is a world football powerhouse and they pay more than other clubs in germany/every player wants to play for them. They wouldn't be nearly as strong if they were in any other league where there was more than one footballing power. Imagine if our best players forced a move to City (free or cheap) every time they became good enough. So I really don't think comparing how we are run to them is fair.
Obviously City (the footballing aspect) is peak how a football club in England should be run, but we don't have that option. We can't put a plan in place 5+ years ahead of time knowing Pep is going to come to us. That's essentially what they did after Mancini, they just planned for Pep's arrival. If there is someone out there and we are doing that, great, I hope we hire that manager soon. But I don't think that's an option. So that leaves us with emulating Chelsea or Liverpool. Liverpool is more ideal in that they built up from barely challenging for top 4 and won a title within a decade, but that's because they went out and got one of the best managers in football and trusted him every step of the way. Slowly strengthening and eventually peaking at a perfect time. That would be cool, but our club is literally trying not to become Liverpool. We don't want to go decades without winning the league. If we are brave and want to try that method, I commend us for that. It's obviously an option.
So that leaves Chelsea. And with our investment in ready-made players in recent years, Maguire, Ronaldo, Varane, Cavani, etc, that seems to be what we're doing. But we're not doing the single most important aspect of their model, and that's hiring a manager that can win. Chelsea take risks on managers. Even Tuchel had tons of issues with PSG and Dortmund's board before leaving/being sacked. Conte obviously falls out with the board everywhere he goes (but I disagree he leaves his squads in bad shape as Chelsea won shortly after and Juventus kept winning) but he won them a title in his first season (right? and won in his first season at Inter as well after them not being good). I feel like we're taking Chelsea's model but just following it badly.
Maybe I'm wrong and I'm babbling. I don't know, I just think Ole is a bad/mediocre manager and that should be obvious to anyone who watches more teams play than just us. I'd love to be proven wrong but it's going on 4 years of no trophies and the performances are getting worse/more inconsistent.
I was defending Ole for a long time but it’s become clear he isn’t the manager to take us forward. He did an excellent job stabilizing the club as a top 4 side which all previous managers had failed to do but our ceiling with him is 75-80 points a season which is not going to be enough to win the league unless all top teams have a year off like 2016. Unless he’s willing to hire a top tier assistant to help him out with the tactics, much like Ferguson had done by handing over large part of his responsibilities to Queiroz, things will not improve.
Part of the issue is there are no top class managers available would stand out as clear choices right now.
Part of the issue is there are no top class managers available would stand out as clear choices right now.
This. There is no way in hell he would be getting this support if he hadn't played for us 20 years ago.
You’re half right. Take Fred today, he passed the ball straight to an Everton player 5 yards away. This should be basic for a professional midfielder. Our record with Brazilian midfielders is rubbish actually we should stay clear
Mancini was also given until the end of the season and lost a cup final to Wigan. He had also been there for 4 seasons.
Chelsea sack managers mid-season and have largely lucked their by having Hiddink and Benitez save them. Chelsea's merry go round will only sustain them so long, they win titles when the other teams aren't doing as well as they should.
This is why they're not a model for us to emulate. Chelsea fans are probably ok with it and why shouldn't they be, before Roman came in they hadn't won a league in 50 years and never were a big club like United or Liverpool. We're not Chelsea, we're United and we need to be looking at becoming a team that dominates, not a team that merely sneaks in when everyone is falling apart.
It's the United way to back the manager and Ole is a club legend. It's going to be a difficult acceptance process for the top reds to come to terms with the fact that Ole is done out there and can't take us any further.
City really are a terrible example. There example is, if there’s a great coach out there, get him at all costs and feck any sentimentality.
One of the first posts was how Chelsea were 1-0 up and would breeze the game
They won 3-1 despite resting loads, and turned the screw big time, the goals were inevitable.
Kinda like us today or vs.Villa.
Chelsea did dominate their game and just conceded a goal via a pen. They had 9 shots on target and +60% possession. They scored 2 goals that were disallowed in first half. But you want to ignore this and focus on the pen they conceded.
He needs to go for not prioritising a DM before signing any one in this window.
Its In excusable not to address that position first.
Mctominay or Fred should not be starting in a title chasing side week in week out.
I don't think our football is of worse quality than Mourinho's. We can be quite devastating in certain situations (which are becoming less and less frequest as teams have learned us). Since I don't see the Europa League, League Cup or second place as anything other than a stepping stone, I'd say Solskjaer has done better work in terms of setting us up to challenge for what we really should target.
Of course, if Solskjaer remains at the helm, than the set up work he has done will be for nothing as a very promising squad is wasted through his management.
Because a lot of them are fans of Ole Gunnar and not really United fans.
Spot on, mate. Would be lovely to win things under him. Came here and was a breath of fresh air with both football and personality.
These days he's almost starting to be dislikable which is sad given how much we love Ole the player. That smile today made me genuinely swear at him
.Exactly of course he wouldn't. Him being a legend as a player should not be used as an excuse to cover up for him being a shite manager.
I think this is a rather unfair characterisation and only serves to create needless vitriol. They wouldnt have become fan of him to begin with without United.
It's no longer a matter of reality, merit, objective assessment when it comes to him. The idea of Ole the manager, member of the Treble winning team, leading us to glory has metatasized itself into the identification of those supporters when it comes to United. Tradition, romanticism, link for Fergie, and for some, all the ties to their best and fondest memories as supporters of the club. To acknowledge that we must move on from him to move on as a club is a divorce with that identity.
Bayern. Manager (Kovac) wins double. Goes with mixed form into the season, got sacked.
Real sacked two managers in same season until hiring right one.
Chelsea. No need for explain. They had manager who before sack was saying exact words like Ole (progress, not good enough to win something, etc..). Hired right one.
City/Liverpool. They were sacking managers until they got right one who won them stuff.
Juve. Who delivers, stays.
So what is wrong with that approach exactly?
This is not about Ole in or out but whatever way we look at it the buck stops with the manager.
If he’s a legend or not doesn’t matter. I don’t want my manager to be nice for no reasons at all and when my manager smiles after a loss it makes my blood boiling. A manager with a winning mentality never smiles after losing points at home, that’s total no go for me.
I don’t care about legend or not but this isn’t good enough. After 3 years there is no excuses.
If he’s a legend or not doesn’t matter. I don’t want my manager to be nice for no reasons at all and when my manager smiles after a loss it makes my blood boiling. A manager with a winning mentality never smiles after losing points at home, that’s total no go for me.
I don’t care about legend or not but this isn’t good enough. After 3 years there is no excuses.
Not me. Between Moyes and Ole I would have given them 2 years in total, instead we’re into 10th year post-SAF with nothing to show for it. As a matter of fact our board and fans are mostly clueless when it comes to seeing through managers ability.