Why are United fans so oblivious to importance of good managers?

[NWRed]

Yes, it is. They actually won trophies.

Yeah, van Gaal won the FA Cup, then got sacked immediately as the previous 2 years had been so amazingly good.
And mourinho won the Europa League, whilst finishing 6th, and destroying squad harmony, and humiliating players, and putting his own ego before the club, and then getting sacked because it was just so good.

Whilst, in my opinion, finishing 6th, 3rd and 2nd without destroying squad harmony or boring us to death are greater achievements, the area in which Solskjaer has massively out performed his predecessors is in squad building, his signings have been of a much higher standard and far more successful so far.

Besides all that, the point I was arguing was you can't use coming from Molde as a stick to beat Solsjkaer with, he has (in my opinion) out performed managers with much better CVs and whilst I still have my doubts whether he can take us back to the very top, I think he deserves one more summer window to sort out central midfield.

 

[RedRover]

So, is Ole a good manager who will lead us to Premier league title? If not why are we wasting out time and prime years of a really good squad

This, for me, is the point.

As I've said on here before, I would love this to work. He was a great player in what was my favourite era as a fan. He also seems like a decent guy. But none of that should be relevant.

He didn't have the pedigree for the job and hasn't done anything to suggest that's going to change. I fail to see how the team can look no better than it did last season with the additions made. He dithers at the point in games that tough decisions are required and seems unable to make changes which will turn a game. The UEFA cup final said it all for me - completely out thought tactically. I also struggle to think of a player he's significantly improved in his time as manager.

A top manager would get more out of this squad and I think there are better managers available. Conte, would have this side challenging, in my opinion. The idea that we need to appoint a manager who's going to be here for a decade isn't realistic. The game has changed.

We're treading water as it stands, with one of the best players in the world in the team. It's a waste.

 

[RedRover]

Yeah, van Gaal won the FA Cup, then got sacked immediately as the previous 2 years had been so amazingly good.
And mourinho won the Europa League, whilst finishing 6th, and destroying squad harmony, and humiliating players, and putting his own ego before the club, and then getting sacked because it was just so good.

Whilst, in my opinion, finishing 6th, 3rd and 2nd without destroying squad harmony or boring us to death are greater achievements, the area in which Solskjaer has massively out performed his predecessors is in squad building, his signings have been of a much higher standard and far more successful so far.

Besides all that, the point I was arguing was you can't use coming from Molde as a stick to beat Solsjkaer with, he has (in my opinion) out performed managers with much better CVs and whilst I still have my doubts whether he can take us back to the very top, I think he deserves one more summer window to sort out central midfield.

How much of that is actually down to him?

The players we brought in this summer aren't joining United because he's at the helm and you don't have to be a genius to work out that Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho are going to improve you. He's shopping in Harrods, and because of that, he needs to deliver trophies and mount a proper title challenge.

 

[Abraxas]

That's the point though, It's obvious we can't compete with likes of Tuchel, Klopp and Pep so, shouldn't we at least be on the lookout to get someone who can compete? What's the point of spending so much to finish 4th when we are always likely to finish around that position anyway even if we sack ole and our new manager fails to live up to expectations. There is really no logical reason to stick with Ole and yes there is no guarantee that our next manager will be successful but there was no guarantee with Tuchel too because he'd only won french league with PSG, bottled CL final and won a few cups with Dortmund but you could tell with the way his teams played that they had a plan. I see the same with plenty of mid table Premier league teams and in Europe as well. Why are we not going for those managers?

You would have to ask the board, they are the ones making that decision are they not? It's not the fans so the tone of addressing fans as if they are the problem by entertaining a different opinion seems misplaced. Compared to most clubs the fans have never been particularly vocal around the stadium to induce decisions around management. That is simply the culture of the club that the manager is given a certain amount of patience.

If I had to guess as to why we're not going for "these managers" it is probably to do with the things I outlined previously, i.e. the overall process that the board were trying to address post Mourinho. That included overall footballing staff, recruitment, a realisation the squad needed overhauling and a transition between the manager having all power to a different footballing structure. If you look at the soundbytes and read around what comes out of the club this is clear.

Having one manager on board for that period makes a lot of sense, however in future a more devolved structure may actually remove this need for consistency of management because many facets are overseen by other key staff. You may get what you want at this point, that we don't retain much patience or accept incremental progress as acceptable. Teams like Chelsea have had such a structure for years so in this context you can see why they work the way they do and flip to the next hired gun.

 

[NWRed]

How much of that is actually down to him?

The players we brought in this summer aren't joining United because he's at the helm and you don't have to be a genius to work out that Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho are going to improve you. He's shopping in Harrods, and because of that, he needs to deliver trophies and mount a proper title challenge.

Well, it wasn't being done before he joined, and now it is, maybe it's coincidence.

 

[RedRover]

Well, it wasn't being done before he joined, and now it is, maybe it's coincidence.

I think the club have (finally) realised that the way we were doing it wasn't working. Whilst he will obviously have a say in identifying targets, I suspect that's it.

He hasn't revolutionised how the club do business. He's not got the pedigree or experience to come into the club and tell anyone what to do.

 

[Giggsy13]

When Ole goes, and we fall back into the rat race to the bottom we were on before he came in, perhaps he'll get some credit for the work he's done here.

Moyes couldn't do it. Van Gaal couldn't do it. Mourinho couldn't do it. But all the keyboard geniuses would have us believe the answer to our problems is the next name off the block.

Too many fans either can't or won't see that the football side of our club isn't run as well as clubs like Bayern or Chelsea. Short term appointments that rip up the playbook and start from scratch don't work here. In fact, they cause more harm than good.

We have a manager who at the very least, holds the best interests of the club above his own. He's established us in a much stronger position than any of the 3 who proceeded him did, and he has installed an infinitely healthier and happier culture in the squad and at the club.

What a terribly depressing standard you hold for a United manager.

 

[OleBoiii]

Excluding the board/owners etc from the equation, I've always been of the opinion that it's 70% down to the players and 30% down to the manager. The longer the manager stays, the more it's down to him/her. But the players are ultimately the most important part.

30-40% is still a lot, though. Of course the manager is very important! I don't think being 'Ole in'(or rather: 'don't sack Ole yet') means that you underestimate the importance of a good manager.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Excluding the board/owners etc from the equation, I've always been of the opinion that it's 70% down to the players and 30% down to the manager. The longer the manager stays, the more it's down to him/her. But the players are ultimately the most important part.

30-40% is still a lot, though. Of course the manager is very important! I don't think being 'Ole in'(or rather: 'don't sack Ole yet') means that you underestimate the importance of a good manager.

People keep talking about this wonderful City team but how much do you think they'd win with Big Sam in charge? I'm willing to bet very little. Once Klopp goes the club have to be very careful with their next manager or they'll disappear for another decade just like we've done. Managers are everything to becoming long term successful so I do think you're underestimating just how important they are.

With elite players the team needs an elite manager. If you think Ole is elite or potentially elite then of course that's your prerogative but you have to understand why ,many of us don't think he is or ever will be.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Change 'manager' for 'midfield' in the thread title. Unfortunately that also includes Ole.

mate, did you not just see how entertaining Liverpool were with Henderson (a laughing stock pre Klopp) and an academy lad Jones in CM?

But hey, Ole can’t make it work with Pogba, Fernandes, Matic, DvB, Fred. feck me. The difference is, those midfielders have defined roles and Liverpool’s style masks their inefficiencies, they don’t need 11 WC players on the pitch, the can have that midfield and Milner at right back, with Jota up top and still look like a superb side.

 

[Leftback99]

mate, did you not just see how entertaining Liverpool were with Henderson (a laughing stock pre Klopp) and an academy lad Jones in CM?

But hey, Ole can’t make it work with Pogba, Fernandes, Matic, DvB, Fred. feck me.

I thought Liverpool were pretty poor myself.

Was Henderson a laughing stock pre Klopp? I remember him being an important player in their near title winning season under Rodgers and already captain.

Fabinho is the key man we don't have an equivalent of anyway. Or a player like Thiago when fit.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I thought Liverpool were pretty poor myself.

Was Henderson a laughing stock pre Klopp?

You thought Liverpool were poor? Wow.

Henderson was laughed at even this Summer as being utterly wank, look at every England thread.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

But hey, Ole can’t make it work with Pogba, Fernandes, Matic, DvB, Fred. feck me. The difference is, those midfielders have defined roles and Liverpool’s style masks their inefficiencies, they don’t need 11 WC players on the pitch, the can have that midfield and Milner at right back, with Jota up top and still look like a superb side.

That really can’t be said enough.

Ole has more than enough at his disposal to get something going yet he sticks to a formation that doesn’t suit his players & certain sections of the fanbase want to create every excuse possible for him. We’d all love a World Class DM but we don’t have one so how about instructing one of McFred to curtail their instincts & do the job for now but no, week after week they go out marauding to be found wanting.

We’re wasting a year of a very talented bunch, Rashford - Marcus fecking Rashford hasn’t kicked a ball yet this season - our squad is ridiculous.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Ask again in 6 months, we will know the answer by then I would imagine.

Feck me.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Well, it wasn't being done before he joined, and now it is, maybe it's coincidence.

Mourinho lost his shit because of just this. The club changed how they do business that Summer, Mourinho lost it.

 

[::sonny::]

Look at Chelsea and Napoli without two clowns like lampard and gattuso (both far better than ole)

 

[NWRed]

I think the club have (finally) realised that the way we were doing it wasn't working. Whilst he will obviously have a say in identifying targets, I suspect that's it.

He hasn't revolutionised how the club do business. He's not got the pedigree or experience to come into the club and tell anyone what to do.

Apparently, within 3 days of his temporary appointment he had presented Woodward with a plan for how he saw the squad and team in 3 years time.

 

[NWRed]

Mourinho lost his shit because of just this. The club changed how they do business that Summer, Mourinho lost it.

AFAIK Mourinho lost his shit because he decided, at the very last minute, that he needed a central defender and the club failed to sign one, mainly due to losing confidence in his judgement after Sanchez.

 

[Leftback99]

You thought Liverpool were poor? Wow.
Henderson was laughed at even this Summer as being utterly wank, look at every England thread.

They had 1 shot in the first half and could barely get out of their half. In the 2nd they should have been down to 10 before the goal.

Liverpool fans I know think the opposite. Other team's fans opinions aren't the best thing to go on. Otherwise our list of midfielders is also a 'laughing stock'.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

I’d love to see you call Gattuso a clown in person

He's not even 6 ft tall, has occular myasthenia and is a devout Catholic. Despite his playstyle on the pitch, I doubt Gattuso is particularly aggressive or would pose much of a physical threat for anyone who is moderately fit.

 

[Red00012]

I’d love to see you call Gattuso a clown in person

As opposed to calling anyone a clown in person ?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

AFAIK Mourinho lost his shit because he decided, at the very last minute, that he needed a central defender and the club failed to sign one, mainly due to losing confidence in his judgement after Sanchez.

No, the club put in place a new transfer board which vetoed Perisic/Willian and it was decided the Maguire price directly after the World cup was too high.
They also vetoed him moving on Martial and Pogba.

There was a clear change in direction that Summer due to how much of a clusterfeck our transfer dealings had become by allowing the manager full autonomy.

Mourinho didn’t utterly lose his shite because he didn’t get Maguire who Leicester after the WC were simply not selling for less than 100m, he lost his shit because the club took away his full control on transfers.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Saying you’d do him are you?

Most likely yes, I took taekwondo classes since 7, worked in a fairly physical environment on my feet for the last decade or so, and still exercise daily in calisthenics. Taking on a man nearly 20 years my senior with a bad eye doesn’t seem daunting.

Just because you got impressed with a footballer’s energy level doesn’t mean they will be up to snuff in a fight, Roy Keane admitted himself that despite the blusters in the tunnel he was sure Viera would kill him if it came to blows. That’s not even taking into account whether they would want to scrap or not, so your comment all in all is pretty pathetic. I’m sure he’s heard worse regularly throughout his playing career, Italian football crowds aren’t exactly known for niceties.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

What’s Ole FC? Us adults don’t understand armchair fickle fan talk.

You’re right, I disliked Jose but never once did I become a little brat on a forum calling for his head.

I’m almost certain a person who abuses people behind a keyboard would never call another person a clown in person

The irony.

And here’s your beloved smilies

 

[DevTheRed]

Tactically and mentally Ole is and will never be good enough to compete with the top coaches of world football. I think it’s one of those that you either have and understand at an elite level or you don’t.

He went from managing a nothing club in Norway to managing arguably the biggest club the world, what, because he used to play for us? It’s a joke. I understood the interim job to calm the ship until the end of the season to find someone permanently, but he was never going to be the man to take us to premier and champions league titles.

The past appointments have been dreadful by the owners and when you look at Chelsea, City and Liverpool and who they have in charge now it makes me sick to the core as to how far behind we have fallen now, especially so when you look at the quality we currently have in the squad.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

How long before we see Zidane out / Conte Out / Poch out etc on this board? I'm being deadly serious. How much time will our fans give the new guy whenever that day comes? I'm betting not very long.

 

[Womp]

How long before we see Zidane out / Conte Out / Poch out etc on this board? I'm being deadly serious. How much time will our fans give the new guy whenever that day comes? I'm betting not very long.

Not 3 years and half a billion pounds, that's for sure. That's reserved for legends at the club who are clearly not good enough at management.

People will be patient if they see progress in the football. If the only improvements we are making to the side is purely in regards to personnel, as is the case with Ole, rather than improving the collective, they won't get as long. Simply cause that's not going to be enough in this league or Europe anymore.

 

[DevTheRed]

How long before we see Zidane out / Conte Out / Poch out etc on this board? I'm being deadly serious. How much time will our fans give the new guy whenever that day comes? I'm betting not very long.

I think as long as the fans see progress on the pitch they’ll give as much time as they need.

The football on the pitch has gotten a lot worse since he took over where as the quality of the squad has come on leap and bounds. I just want to see a system and a philosophy (LVG ARMY) to our play.. but unfortunately we don’t have anything of the sort.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

How long before we see Zidane out / Conte Out / Poch out etc on this board? I'm being deadly serious. How much time will our fans give the new guy whenever that day comes? I'm betting not very long.

As long as results hold up.

No football club is obligated to show patience for a well compensated employee who is underperforming. What matters is you make sure you have a solid management structure to ensure the wellbeing of the club is taken care of, things like financial health, training facilities/stadium, squad quality, youth system, thus providing whoever is tasked with being the head coach the best platform to success.

 

[Adam-Utd]

It is just sad but mainly because United fans have seen two technical managers failed one after another. And things seemed to improve a bit under Ole, who tries miserably to copy Sir Alex's style. Sir Alex was never a technical genius. He has a naturally gifted charismatic personality. So even when he just said, lads, it's Tottenham. It made mattered, players were ready to go through brick walls for him. Most United fans have grown up watching this and think this could work with Ole too since he is a United legend. But sadly things don't work that way.

even fergie has people like queiroz and muelensteen to help him tactically and give him another opinion.

who does ole have? phalan who never achieved anything outside of fergie.

carrick who has zero experience as a coach, and kieran mckenna who came highly rated as a youth coach, but yet again no actual first team experience.

they all sit there on the bench and it seems like nobody is giving him proper advice. tactically we get things wrong and the subs rarely seem to timed effectively.

Maybe Ole could work with a proper tactical mind behind the scenes. he needs to be a man manager and not the coach.

Unfortunately though I don’t see it working out for him. we will hopefully scrape top 4 this year and make a change in the summer.

we need to leave the united way in the dust.

 

[NWRed]

No, the club put in place a new transfer board which vetoed Perisic/Willian and it was decided the Maguire price directly after the World cup was too high.
They also vetoed him moving on Martial and Pogba.

There was a clear change in direction that Summer due to how much of a clusterfeck our transfer dealings had become by allowing the manager full autonomy.

Mourinho didn’t utterly lose his shite because he didn’t get Maguire who Leicester after the WC were simply not selling for less than 100m, he lost his shit because the club took away his full control on transfers.

Perisic wasn't that summer, it was the summer before, and they didn't Veto Perisic, they tried to play chicken with Inter over the price, gambling they'd lower it as they needed money for FFP and lost. I don't recall Willian being a serious target.

The info on Mourinho targetting a CB very late and being pissed that we didn't sign one comes from the Athletic, they usually know their stuff.

Edit: here's the quote from The Athletic

Indeed, Mourinho was beyond frustrated over United’s work in the market. Signing Fred, teenager Diogo Dalot and 35-year-old Stoke City reserve goalkeeper Grant was not going to bridge that huge gap to City and specifically Mourinho wanted a new centre-back. The issue from United’s perspective was that a centre-back had not been on the list of targets worked on throughout the season. Mourinho had returned from his holiday that summer and changed plans with only weeks to go before the deadline.


Mourinho named Yerry Mina and Jerome Boateng as preferred options, but the recruitment department raised flags over the duo’s fitness and exercised their veto. Woodward informed Mourinho of the decision, triggering a response as volatile as you might expect.


He also listed Harry Maguire but the price set by Leicester City was judged excessive.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Personally don't think there is any patience left in our fanbase, especially in the online section of it.

The second the results turn with whoever our next manager is there will be Conte out / Zidane out trending on twitter.

People forget that before Ole we had 3 very experienced managers and nobody wanted them to stay either. They all had to go which just show that whilst Ole might be an issue he isn't necessarily the only one as three other guys couldn't make it work either.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

People forget that before Ole we had 3 very experienced managers and nobody wanted them to stay either. They all had to go which just show that whilst Ole might be an issue he isn't necessarily the only one as three other guys couldn't make it work either.

Liverpool tried what? Souness, Evans, Evans/Houllier, Benitez, Hodgson, Dalglish & Brenten before finally landing a manager who was one of the best coaches in the World, that changed everything.

So no, changing managers isn’t a magic bullet, but getting a top manager in is.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Perisic wasn't that summer, it was the summer before, and they didn't Veto Perisic, they tried to play chicken with Inter over the price, gambling they'd lower it as they needed money for FFP and lost. I don't recall Willian being a serious target.

The info on Mourinho targetting a CB very late and being pissed that we didn't sign one comes from the Athletic, they usually know their stuff.

The info about United installing a transfer board and taking autonomy away from the manager that Summer comes directly from the CEO himself. So you know, someone who probably knows how the club operates.

I mean, that Athletic article even confirms that suddenly the club had a transfer team vetoing the manager, something we never previously had. So back to Ole, “coincidence our recruitment has been better”, no, because it started the previous Summer without Ole anywhere near the club. The clear out started with Fellaini when we didn’t even have a manager.

 

[Revan]

How long before we see Zidane out / Conte Out / Poch out etc on this board? I'm being deadly serious. How much time will our fans give the new guy whenever that day comes? I'm betting not very long.

And rightly so. It is a performance business. Perform and we love you, don’t perform and feck off. It is like that it every other big clubs and they are doing far better than us.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Liverpool tried what? Souness, Evans, Evans/Houllier, Benitez, Hodgson, Dalglish & Brenten before finally landing a manager who was one of the best coaches in the World, that changed everything.

So no, changing managers isn’t a magic bullet, but getting a top manager in is.

With Pep, Klopp and Tuchel around we could in theory get a top coach in and still not win the league. It's never a sure thing as we know.

Who would you put in charge of it was your call? Zidane and Conte are the only two real contenders as they are both out of work. Would they win the league for us?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

With Pep, Klopp and Tuchel around we could in theory get a top coach in and still not win the league. It's never a sure thing as we know.

Who would you put in charge of it was your call? Zidane and Conte are the only two real contenders as they are both out of work. Would they win the league for us?

I’d keep Ole for now over both those names.

And yes, with three proven top coaches in the league nothing is guaranteed, but I’ve always imagined we’ll have to change to a proven top manager at some point in order to compete with these guys. The mere fairytale that an ex player managing in Norway will come in an be a Pep/Klopp buster has been so incredibly far fetched to me since day one. I think top managers are extremely rare.

Who is that guy right now? I think alot of managers have a defined modern playing style that could work wonders with this squad, the Ajax bloke being high up the list.

 

[Plant0x84]

Define good. Was LVG a good manager? Was Mourinho or Moyes?

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

I’d keep Ole for now over both those names.

If Zidane is open to getting the gig then we would be mad not to give him a shot this season. If reports are true about him wanting the French NR job after the WC, we can offer him a 18 months or 2 years deal and see how he gets on, while keeping our tab on ten Haag or Rose. He doesn’t seem to want the job though.

For Conte, it’s more complicated, but if he agrees to work under some constraints, especially player profiles/recruitment, he would also be an immediate upgrade over Ole and we still retain control over the long term health of the squad. Despite bitching constantly about transfers at Inter the whole time he was there, he still did his job, so hardly similar to Mourinho playing McTominay at CB just to spite the board. His European record is pretty abysmal but if we can get a good tilt at the league this season then why not? Not as if Ole with his 50% win rate at OT and sub 2 ppg average has much of a chance.