Nazi concentration camp secretary trial

oates

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I'm gonna play devil's advocate here ans hopefully I'm making my point clear.

The ease with which people expect other people to risk their life is a bit scary to me. Look at Sophie Scholl, killed by guillotine. Not every citizen has Sophie's courage, nor do I personally expect that.

Mind, I'm not saying I know all the ins and outs of this particular case and whether this secretary could have just not applied or whatever. I mean in general this "Germans knew what was happening" argument and that therefore German citizens had to do something about it.

Again, not everybody has the courage to risk execution.
No, not everyone would have had to face execution if someone had stood up nearer the beginning of Hitler taking power. We all know the difference between right and wrong and enough people had to stand up at some point and say 'But, er, hang on, this is just the politics of hate...'. People didn't need to join the rallies, Kristallnacht happened in 1938. My father was a teenager born and living in Austria, and he always said 'We didn't want the Anschluss, we didn't want Hitler.' - Watch footage of the Germans marching into Austria, there was no room on the pavements what with swastika waving Austrians. Whether they make the excuse that they weren't all brave, the active perpetrators still knew what they were doing was horrifically wrong.
 

VorZakone

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No, not everyone would have had to face execution if someone had stood up nearer the beginning of Hitler taking power. We all know the difference between right and wrong and enough people had to stand up at some point and say 'But, er, hang on, this is just the politics of hate...'. People didn't need to join the rallies, Kristallnacht happened in 1938. My father was a teenager born and living in Austria, and he always said 'We didn't want the Anschluss, we didn't want Hitler.' - Watch footage of the Germans marching into Austria, there was no room on the pavements what with swastika waving Austrians. Whether they make the excuse that they weren't all brave, the active perpetrators still knew what they were doing was horrifically wrong.
Obviously not everyone would have risked execution. My point is that I don't expect from people that they follow Scholl's footsteps.

I'm not arguing people didn't know. I'm saying that even despite knowing right and wrong, given the choice between life and death, I don't put this enormous expectation on people to risk it like Scholl did.
 

oates

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Obviously not everyone would have risked execution. My point is that I don't expect from people that they follow Scholl's footsteps.

I'm not arguing people didn't know. I'm saying that even despite knowing right and wrong, given the choice between life and death, I don't put this enormous expectation on people to risk it like Scholl did.
I don't disagree, the urge to survive is strong. The reasons for Hitler and eventually the War are many and complex, probably we could spend forever discussing back and forth. I'm obviously conflicted, my father was in the Hitler Youth and I've spent a lot of time thinking about it and some of the things he said. On the other hand my background is proper complicated, my mother, her brother and my grandmother survived a Japanese Internment camp in Manila. That's a lot of PTSD going around.
 

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Shot in the dark here, but probably from the knowledge of what the Nazis did at the camps. Could be wrong though, who knows?
They did so much more than that... Their sick and evil ways were not just confined to the camps.
 

Pexbo

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Have we really moved to a society where Nazi sympathy has reached a point where people will aggressively bark from a position of morale outrage when people should dare argue that a nazi should finally receive a fair trial?
 

Conor

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In a world where you can be jailed for telling the police lies about a relative/spouse when they have done something wrong, are people really questioning why someone who literally worked at a nazi death camp should be held accountable?
 

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I really don’t care what it seems like. I spent a year of my history degree studying the Holocaust and Nazi Germany and from that I am quite confident in telling you that she knew exactly what she was getting herself into. The “I didn’t know” is a rehearsed line of bullshit. People her age knew right from wrong and chose right. She chose to work at Stuffhof. I am content in my judgment of that and stand by it.
I wasn't claiming she didn't know, I was just surprised they were going after such young and lowly workers. I didn't realise there had been a law change recently to facilitate that.
To me it feels a bit vindictive and less meaningful now- why not enact that change and jail these people a decade or more ago when it would've more meaningfully punished them?
Like I said, I can obviously understand those wanting to go for anyone who worked at the camps.
 

antohan

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That is not true, and I am saying that as someone who was abused, in all the ways I mentioned, someone who became one of the "messed up ones" and someone who's worked really fecking hard to sort myself out and someone who has been married to a Dr of Psychology for over a decade.

There was a reason I said those who become abusers and those who become predators as separate categories.

Most abusers who were abused are less aware of the extent of the abuse they give out, usually to those who are closest to them, and tend to end up in a place where they abuse without foresight or planning. On top of that, there's often an inebriate or situation that raises adrenaline to unnatural levels, usually because of repressed trauma. That can end up being normalized so much you get intergenerational trauma.

Predators are different, they go out of their way to abuse, usually on random victims. They tend to understand why they are fecked up and believe it gives them a right to act a certain way. They also gain pleasure in the abuse and will actively seek out opportunities to enact abuse.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm going off on you, it's just using child abuse to excuse evil behaviour really scares me as much as people not understanding the trauma and damage that child abuse, grooming, propaganda can cause.
No worries. I wasn't talking about child abuse, that surely is far more complex. Kid aged 7, whose parents may have been thick as pigshit nazis for all I know, grows up being told how Jews are at the root of all evil, bombarded with propaganda, potentially surrounded by people who keep reaffirming all that... That's why I say which surroundings/relationships they were born into are just random luck.

At which point do you expect them to come off it? How exactly? Following whose guidance and example? People here holding the average kid to Sophie Scholl standards... well, you know name and surname of this one person so that alone should tell you it wasn't the norm. We would all like to think being born at that time we too would be Sophie Scholls but it's statistically very fecking unlikely.

Fact is, we know feck all about how we would have turned out so I think there's a far stronger case for compassion than getting all vindictive.

Again, marrying an SS soldier after doesn't sound great and avoiding the trial doesn't sound fantastic to me. I would like to think IF that had been me I would have moved on, been an outstanding citizen for the next seven decades and would relish the chance to speak out, condemn, apologise, point to a life well lived... But what the feck do I know? She may be fed up of running through that and people not responding well to it or, more likely, she probably has dementia or doesn't actually remember that much at all and knows it will be torture.

We are really at a point were the exercise is worthwhile, but if you do the maths you can hardly get all that angry at the individual in question. It wasn't their doing but that of the two generations prior to theirs.
 

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I wasn't claiming she didn't know, I was just surprised they were going after such young and lowly workers. I didn't realise there had been a law change recently to facilitate that.
To me it feels a bit vindictive and less meaningful now- why not enact that change and jail these people a decade or more ago when it would've more meaningfully punished them?
Like I said, I can obviously understand those wanting to go for anyone who worked at the camps.
Just because previous generations dropped the ball doesn’t mean we have to.
 

Denis79

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I know bud. My post was dripping with sarcasm, if you couldn’t tell.
Yeah, I picked that up. Though a lot people (not saying you) think that only the SS and people working in the camps stood for atrocities. The majority of the nation truly believed in the ideologies and the supremacy of their race and acted accordingly.
 

Carolina Red

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Yeah, I picked that up. Though a lot people (not saying you) think that only the SS and people working in the camps stood for atrocities. The majority of the nation truly believed in the ideologies and the supremacy of their race and acted accordingly.
Quite right. Their collective guilt spreads far and wide.
 

HTG

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Just because previous generations dropped the ball doesn’t mean we have to.
And it’s becoming more and more relevant in Germanys current political climate. The far right is on the rise, their ideology is becoming more and more common in the so called middle of society and revisionism of the ns time is also rising.
The last survivors of the holocaust will soon be gone. We must make sure that once they are gone, some racist assholes don’t get to rewrite history, to paint the German public as innocent and unknowing.
 

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I really don’t care what it seems like. I spent a year of my history degree studying the Holocaust and Nazi Germany and from that I am quite confident in telling you that she knew exactly what she was getting herself into. The “I didn’t know” is a rehearsed line of bullshit. People her age knew right from wrong and chose right. She chose to work at Stuffhof. I am content in my judgment of that and stand by it.
This is so true and so many in former dictatorships try to get away from it. Even in "softer" dictatorships like the portuguese one, we see former PIDE (the state police) agents saying they thought they were just catching communist terrorists, they didn't know they were torturing and killing people in political prisons (not to mention torturing syndicalists, civil activists and everyone who opposed the state to be honest), especially in Africa. In reality every single person in the country knew what PIDE was about, you just have to talk to old people and they'll tell you.

After the revolution, everyone became "just a driver, just a clerk, just a simple guard" and we all collectively accepted it in order to move on. No one talks about it, which allows the current fascists to get away with shit like "well it wasn't really that bad, the radical left just makes stuff up". It's embarrassing how we teach (or don't) the fascist period and the shit we did in Africa.
 

Denis79

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And it’s becoming more and more relevant in Germanys current political climate. The far right is on the rise, their ideology is becoming more and more common in the so called middle of society and revisionism of the ns time is also rising.
The last survivors of the holocaust will soon be gone. We must make sure that once they are gone, some racist assholes don’t get to rewrite history, to paint the German public as innocent and unknowing.
Far right winds are blowing all over Europe again, it is so important to learn about and remember well the evil the Nazis stood for and did. It would be a mockery to the hard won free societies we live in not to do so.
 

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I wasn't claiming she didn't know, I was just surprised they were going after such young and lowly workers. I didn't realise there had been a law change recently to facilitate that.
To me it feels a bit vindictive and less meaningful now- why not enact that change and jail these people a decade or more ago when it would've more meaningfully punished them?
Like I said, I can obviously understand those wanting to go for anyone who worked at the camps.
I couldn't find an English version, but this is a list of former NSDAP members, who became politicians after the war and you can see how long it is:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_ehemaliger_NSDAP-Mitglieder,_die_nach_Mai_1945_politisch_tätig_waren

Most of them Mayors, members of various parliaments, some ministers, one became Germany's head of state, another chancellor. One became the head of the federal state of Baden-Württemberg, he had to step down from that post at the end of the 70s, because it became known that, as a marine judge, he had sentenced four people to death.

There was never a complete clean out and with so many politicians (and powerful/famous people in all kinds of positions) not having a squeaky clean past themselves, it's not hard to guess why it took so long until there was an honest attempt at identifying and prosecuting Nazis and their helpers again.
 

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I couldn't find an English version, but this is a list of former NSDAP members, who became politicians after the war and you can see how long it is:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_ehemaliger_NSDAP-Mitglieder,_die_nach_Mai_1945_politisch_tätig_waren

Most of them Mayors, members of various parliaments, some ministers, one became Germany's head of state, another chancellor. One became the head of the federal state of Baden-Württemberg, he had to step down from that post at the end of the 70s, because it became known that, as a marine judge, he had sentenced four people to death.

There was never a complete clean out and with so many politicians (and powerful/famous people in all kinds of positions) not having a squeaky clean past themselves, it's not hard to guess why it took so long until there was an honest attempt at identifying and prosecuting Nazis and their helpers again.
It gets even worse when you look into how the German military was rebuild.
 

Peter van der Gea

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No worries. I wasn't talking about child abuse, that surely is far more complex. Kid aged 7, whose parents may have been thick as pigshit nazis for all I know, grows up being told how Jews are at the root of all evil, bombarded with propaganda, potentially surrounded by people who keep reaffirming all that... That's why I say which surroundings/relationships they were born into are just random luck.

At which point do you expect them to come off it? How exactly? Following whose guidance and example? People here holding the average kid to Sophie Scholl standards... well, you know name and surname of this one person so that alone should tell you it wasn't the norm. We would all like to think being born at that time we too would be Sophie Scholls but it's statistically very fecking unlikely.

Fact is, we know feck all about how we would have turned out so I think there's a far stronger case for compassion than getting all vindictive
.

Again, marrying an SS soldier after doesn't sound great and avoiding the trial doesn't sound fantastic to me. I would like to think IF that had been me I would have moved on, been an outstanding citizen for the next seven decades and would relish the chance to speak out, condemn, apologise, point to a life well lived... But what the feck do I know? She may be fed up of running through that and people not responding well to it or, more likely, she probably has dementia or doesn't actually remember that much at all and knows it will be torture.

We are really at a point were the exercise is worthwhile, but if you do the maths you can hardly get all that angry at the individual in question. It wasn't their doing but that of the two generations prior to theirs.
I think that level of propaganda is child abuse, specifically emotional abuse. To cause a child to other specific groups is to take them away from a natural state of empathy, forcefully changing their emotional responses through controlling behaviour.

Teenagers in general tend to push boundaries and rebel. Children of Republicans turn Democrat, children of religious people turn secular, I mean, how many movements like CND, climate change BLM etc are known for their student activism element. That time, that exact time 13 to 25ish, is when they were supposed to say, no, those are human beings who I'm not going to kill, not because you say Jewish People or Gay People or Gypsy People or Disabled People are bad. No I'm not going to listen to that shouty man, he's chatting a load of bollocks. If you lot are gonna lock up that kid I've known all my life, I'm gonna help them escape. It was at that time that she decided to work in a concentration camp.

The point about child abuse is that the vast majority of abuse victims don't go on to abuse and an even tinier proportion become active predators. I concede that the societal and economic pressures of the great depression may have caused some people to make bad work decisions, but not to the point of knowingly working in concentration camps.

The fact is that the research we have on childhood abuse and complex PTSD points to society not acting in the way the Nazis did, but tending to more emotional and compassionate behaviours, especially after thinking independently. This kind of predatory behaviour that needs to be punished with no time limit, the same as we would do to a paedophile who themselves were abused as a child. Its not being vindictive, firstly, its justice and secondly, its a deterrent.

The fact that she's lived nearly 80 years on, makes me the most angry. How many 18 year olds didn't get to 96 because of her direct actions? No amount of apologies, condemnation or "living life well" will make up for that, when she is responsible for many, many much better lives being snuffed out.

At some point intergenerational trauma has to be stopped, and that can only happen when one of those trauma victims takes responsibility, possibly more than their own share, for the good of the following generations. This lady, trying to evade again, is not taking on that responsibility.
 

Penna

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I'm gonna play devil's advocate here ans hopefully I'm making my point clear.

The ease with which people expect other people to risk their life is a bit scary to me. Look at Sophie Scholl, killed by guillotine. Not every citizen has Sophie's courage, nor do I personally expect that.

Mind, I'm not saying I know all the ins and outs of this particular case and whether this secretary could have just not applied or whatever. I mean in general this "Germans knew what was happening" argument and that therefore German citizens had to do something about it.

Again, not everybody has the courage to risk execution.
I don't disagree with your general point, but this woman wasn't just "not brave" - she must have been an active seeker-out of that job. It would be a job she'd have had to apply for. Then afterwards, she married an SS officer - I would think that's something that only true believers would do.
 

Jippy

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I couldn't find an English version, but this is a list of former NSDAP members, who became politicians after the war and you can see how long it is:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_ehemaliger_NSDAP-Mitglieder,_die_nach_Mai_1945_politisch_tätig_waren

Most of them Mayors, members of various parliaments, some ministers, one became Germany's head of state, another chancellor. One became the head of the federal state of Baden-Württemberg, he had to step down from that post at the end of the 70s, because it became known that, as a marine judge, he had sentenced four people to death.

There was never a complete clean out and with so many politicians (and powerful/famous people in all kinds of positions) not having a squeaky clean past themselves, it's not hard to guess why it took so long until there was an honest attempt at identifying and prosecuting Nazis and their helpers again.
From memory -and my history degree was a long time ago and @Carolina Red will know better than me- the allies just kept the existing civil service after the war cos it was probably easier and they didn't have much choice, ie where else do you find 150,000+ bureaucrats. There were certainly networks of sympathisers who helped some heinous war criminals escape though.
Would be interesting to see what percentage of people were NSDAP members - certainly some only joined to get by or a decent job at least. You'd probably be jailing c10m or more people if you incarcerated them all.

How you deal with perps in the aftermath of war is really interesting and seems badly handled all too often, eg Radovan Karadzic not even arrested until 2008 etc...
 

Carolina Red

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And it’s becoming more and more relevant in Germanys current political climate. The far right is on the rise, their ideology is becoming more and more common in the so called middle of society and revisionism of the ns time is also rising.
The last survivors of the holocaust will soon be gone. We must make sure that once they are gone, some racist assholes don’t get to rewrite history, to paint the German public as innocent and unknowing.
This is so true and so many in former dictatorships try to get away from it. Even in "softer" dictatorships like the portuguese one, we see former PIDE (the state police) agents saying they thought they were just catching communist terrorists, they didn't know they were torturing and killing people in political prisons (not to mention torturing syndicalists, civil activists and everyone who opposed the state to be honest), especially in Africa. In reality every single person in the country knew what PIDE was about, you just have to talk to old people and they'll tell you.

After the revolution, everyone became "just a driver, just a clerk, just a simple guard" and we all collectively accepted it in order to move on. No one talks about it, which allows the current fascists to get away with shit like "well it wasn't really that bad, the radical left just makes stuff up". It's embarrassing how we teach (or don't) the fascist period and the shit we did in Africa.
Agreed completely to both of these posts and just want to add how eerily similar both sound to what we are experiencing in the US today and what previous generations have done to our own history. We are currently having a wave of “teachers aren't teaching real history” over here from people whose definition of real history is that black people weren’t really that oppressed and the Native Americans asked for it. The radical right is attempting to re-write history books all around the world right now, and the last thing we need are folks helping them do it by showing sympathy to fascists.
 

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its not black and white is it, these things never are no matter how much people try and see it that way. the nation was turned into a war machine, so is everyone who stayed and played a part in the war effort culpable. I just see the abuses happening around the world today and wonder why the attribution of responsibility isn't so widespread as we want it to be for the horrors of years ago.
It’s easier to do things after the fact.
 

antohan

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It’s easier to do things after the fact.
Like 80 years later?

@Suedesi does have a point that there's plenty of more contemporary examples were doing something about it is subject to geopolitical considerations. How many little Hitlers have been propped up all over the world and left to commit genocide on their own?

What I find shocking here isn't that someone working in a camp is put on trial, what I find shocking is that it took her being 96 and not much use before it happened. Surely these people could have been prosecuted earlier when they could actually throw light on bigger fish to be fried? Convenient, much? Why was she out of bounds for so long?

It stinks and it's pretty worrying that that's not the question being asked.
 

matherto

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Like 80 years later?

@Suedesi does have a point that there's plenty of more contemporary examples were doing something about it is subject to geopolitical considerations. How many little Hitlers have been propped up all over the world and left to commit genocide on their own?

What I find shocking here isn't that someone working in a camp is put on trial, what I find shocking is that it took her being 96 and not much use before it happened. Surely these people could have been prosecuted earlier when they could actually throw light on bigger fish to be fried? Convenient, much? Why was she out of bounds for so long?

It stinks and it's pretty worrying that that's not the question being asked.
Does it matter how long it takes as long as it happens?

Age and time have no consideration to me. We shouldn’t let people off just because it was ages ago and/or they’re old.

The system fails in the present because narratives are controlled and dissenting voices silenced so it has to be done retrospectively. We’re lazy and not willing to confront things in the present for the most part.

Just because some slipped through the net doesn’t mean those lower down the pecking order should get away with it.

Of course it stinks, but then the more powerful ones are always better placed to insulate themselves.
 
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antohan

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Teenagers in general tend to push boundaries and rebel. Children of Republicans turn Democrat, children of religious people turn secular, I mean, how many movements like CND, climate change BLM etc are known for their student activism element.
Some do, yes, but most children of Republicans stay Republican and viceversa. The student activism you allude to largely happens in free democratic societies, not dictatorships. You simply wouldn't last long.

In agreement or not, if you don't go along with the flow you end up in jail, tortured or dead. Same goes for all those associated with you. You don't get a job, there's no means to provide for your family. Most people get their head down and just try go unnoticed. Granted, first secretary to the guy running the camp is a few miles away from that and more likely sought with intent, but I know first hand of people (not in Nazi Germany but same shit really) trying to fly under the radar and getting unfortunate job offers you can't decline or else you blow your "cover".

Of course there's the absolute heroes that do exactly that, play along like sleeper cells and use their access to undermine the regime but it takes a special kind of person and, again, statistically they are few and far apart.

Its not being vindictive, firstly, its justice and secondly, its a deterrent.
I'm all for deterrence. I also agree you need people taking responsibility. That's precisely were the timing looks off to me, this should have happened absolute ages ago.
 

antohan

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Does it matter how long it takes as long as it happens?

Age and time have no consideration to me. We shouldn’t let people off just because it was ages ago and/or they’re old.

The system fails in the present because narratives are controlled and dissenting voices silenced so it has to be done retrospectively. We’re lazy and not willing to confront things in the present for the most part.

Just because some slipped through the net doesn’t mean those lower down the pecking order should get away with it.

Of course it stinks, but then the more powerful ones are always better placed to insulate themselves.
My point re: timing is that the most guilty ones are all dead now. Perfect insulation that, "wait until we are all dead then try some old hag". Bread and circus.
 

Peter van der Gea

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Like 80 years later?

@Suedesi does have a point that there's plenty of more contemporary examples were doing something about it is subject to geopolitical considerations. How many little Hitlers have been propped up all over the world and left to commit genocide on their own?

What I find shocking here isn't that someone working in a camp is put on trial, what I find shocking is that it took her being 96 and not much use before it happened. Surely these people could have been prosecuted earlier when they could actually throw light on bigger fish to be fried? Convenient, much? Why was she out of bounds for so long?

It stinks and it's pretty worrying that that's not the question being asked.
I agree, more should have been done much much earlier. It reminds me of how we found out about Jimmy Saville the year after he died.

I don't want to sound like a Qanon nut job, but it does seem that if you're high up enough, you can do whatever you want, even raping children. I mean we have Prince Andrew ducking rape allegations right now and is being kept away from them.

There were too many high powered Nazis, so they all got away with it
 

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My point re: timing is that the most guilty ones are all dead now. Perfect insulation that, "wait until we are all dead then try some old hag". Bread and circus.
They had the power to make sure they never got caught. Sad fact of life.

Still we should get all of the ones we can.
 

antohan

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I agree, more should have been done much much earlier. It reminds me of how we found out about Jimmy Saville the year after he died.

I don't want to sound like a Qanon nut job, but it does seem that if you're high up enough, you can do whatever you want, even raping children. I mean we have Prince Andrew ducking rape allegations right now and is being kept away from them.

There were too many high powered Nazis, so they all got away with it
Or Maradona having his own sex slave flown to Argentina for a boob job.
 

antohan

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Your argument here is stupid.

The Nazis publicly lynched peasants. We’re talking about this woman going to court.
It was a deliberate parallel.

The partisans had the balls to make Benito hang. Here we are putting someone on trial 80 years too late and all chuffed about how justice is being made.
 

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It was a deliberate parallel.

The partisans had the balls to make Benito hang. Here we are putting someone on trial 80 years too late and all chuffed about how justice is being made.
None of us were around when people dropped the ball on administering justice 80 years ago. We are around now. Some of us are chuffed and some of us are making excuses for Nazis.
 

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It was a deliberate parallel.

The partisans had the balls to make Benito hang. Here we are putting someone on trial 80 years too late and all chuffed about how justice is being made.
Unless you have a time machine the people with political power today can use what is the point of complaining in this specific context?
 

antohan

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None of us were around when people dropped the ball on administering justice 80 years ago. We are around now. Some of us are chuffed and some of us are making excuses for Nazis.
Unless you have a time machine the people with political power today can use what is the point of complaining in this specific context?
Trials restarting in 2016 is nothing to be chuffed about how much better we are than people 80 years ago. It's very much those in political power TODAY that waited until it's far too late to bring to justice anyone more senior than a random teenage typist.