Didn't even get a PhD graduate, cutting costs.
United appoint Dominic Jordan as director of data science
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Liverpool, City and maybe others are already heavily dependent on this kind of Football Science and United are probably missing a trick to date.
Assuming this is the right man and the research is used properly it can't help but be a plus for you.
Assuming this is the right man and the research is used properly it can't help but be a plus for you.
Good. A lot of people in this thread underestimate the importance of this The game has evolved.
There is absolutely no need to have any football expertise for this role. Heck, I would even go as far as it would be possible to do this role without knowing the football rules.
Throw-ins do my head in and ours are pretty bad. I can never understand how professional football teams at the highest level insist on throwing it long and losing possession what seems like 9 times out of 10. It beggars belief.
Good. We can now rely on someone who majors in data science from Cambridge to improve our play.
Typical!
For those who think data doesn't help, I see you have forgotten Cambridge Analytica and how it changed our world?
That would make Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo C players, then?
Things we are still consistently worse at that teams around us spending less:
Throw ins
Pressing
Off the ball movement
Slow laboured transitions
Crossing, knowing when to cross and when attackers should gamble on crosses, we are plain awful at crossing. Liverpool and city are brilliant at that percentage ball across the box. Our players look surprised when it goes in there.
Tactical fouling and shithousery aka the dark arts
we’ve got a set piece coach so I’ll leave that out but we still suck at that at this moment in time.
lot there to be working on!
Throw ins
Pressing
Off the ball movement
Slow laboured transitions
Crossing, knowing when to cross and when attackers should gamble on crosses, we are plain awful at crossing. Liverpool and city are brilliant at that percentage ball across the box. Our players look surprised when it goes in there.
Tactical fouling and shithousery aka the dark arts
we’ve got a set piece coach so I’ll leave that out but we still suck at that at this moment in time.
lot there to be working on!
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Champions League incoming
No, they are world class. Ronaldo is GOAT.
The point was about club staff not football players. Steve Jobs wasn't talking about football
Not sure how much we had before but it's good none the less. Data is helpful to analyze just about every part of the game and removes pre existing biases. As someone said... the person doesn't have to know anything about football, the data will just tell what the data tells at the end of the day and it'll give more informed decision making.
Just because Jobs said it doesn't make it true. B players don't hire A players sounds like a load of old guff. So everyone who isn't elite, or not yet elite, is intimidated by elite performers? It's patently nonsense that everyone not at the very top level are unable recognise talent and don't want the top talent in their organisation.
I'm no expert but you seem to be confusing Sports Science with Data Science. We already have a Sports Science department at United.
This is patently untrue. Data is not some magic. It doesn't tell any story on its own. Any data needs interpretation to be useful. Any data analyst worth anything will tell you that
Exactly. Not only are we going to win the Premier League, we're going to get Ole elected Prime Minister.
No he was talking about staff. Playing staff doesn't fall outside of that, nor should we forget it was a very popular theory up until last year that Ole couldn't attract top class talent.
Well, I was talking about staff. With players there are other things that come into play that make it different from most employment dynamics
But if you really want to go there, you do remember we were not Ronaldo's top choice, right? He had to get a call from SAF and be shamed and told he would ruin his legacy, and whatever else convinced him, otherwise he was all set to join Pep
And if we continue to play like this he is going to regret his decisionI am never one to praise our owners given how they've spun the modernising of the club but Liverpool have been using stats for years and that's how they've identified their best players as of late, if I remember correctly - e.g. Salah, Mane, etc.
This sounds interesting but we still have no transparency on how the club is actually run. And our biggest problem is the lack of a senior director with football knowledge like they have at Bayern.
This sounds interesting but we still have no transparency on how the club is actually run. And our biggest problem is the lack of a senior director with football knowledge like they have at Bayern.
Ah, so it applies only when it's negative. When we see instances of the exact opposite it doesn't count.Well, I was talking about staff. With players there are other things that come into play that make it different from most employment dynamics
But if you really want to go there, you do remember we were not Ronaldo's top choice, right? He had to get a call from SAF and be shamed and told he would ruin his legacy, and whatever else convinced him, otherwise he was all set to join Pep
Yeah, the only reason he joined us was because Fergie shamed him.
Some of you will believe anything. Was Varane about to join Burnley before he got a haunting from the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come?Better late than never. Hopefully there's a plan to this and it's not one man's idea that no one else from the coaching staff takes seriously. Still, "patterns of play" is getting out there. Already you people made Ole say it in a presser, now this. He's feeling the hipsters' pressure.
Listen, I am not trying to convince you of something at all costs. You are more than entitled to have a different opinion, of course.Ah, so it applies only when it's negative. When we see instances of the exact opposite it doesn't count.
Yeah, the only reason he joined us was because Fergie shamed him.
That said, it's hard to argue that Jobs knew a thing or two about hiring and building winning teams. More so than most of us. Kindof like you don't have to agree with SAF on everything but it would be hard to dispute that he was a great manager.
In that context, I thought sharing Jobs's perspective was interesting. I think it is also relevant because I see Ed surrounding himself with mediocrity, but please feel tree to disagree. No problem
Wasting your time. He/she is yet another of these constant negative posters that grow by the dayAh, so it applies only when it's negative. When we see instances of the exact opposite it doesn't count.
Yeah, the only reason he joined us was because Fergie shamed him.
So these aren't some strange mythical creatures, after all. They exist in the world of football, and they should not be frowned upon as being useless and unimportant. You can actually analyse them and design better ones or improve the existing ones. Not just another stick to beat Solskjaer with, huh? Good to know.
@Adnan They're all confusing me again. Would you mind explaining what's going on?
Yes it needs interpretation of course. But they don't have to be a football expert is my point. They aren't going to be this big decision maker. They'll provide input on players and trends and success rates compared to others. It'll then be up to the coaching staff how exactly it's best to be used or if they want to follow it.
Any appointment that seeks to improve the club is always welcome, in my book. Some of the criticism is odd, considering we haven't even had the opportunity to see any impact this appointment may have yet.
Indeed. This hipster numbskull (and qualified UEFA coach) even wrote an entire blog post about coaching 'patterns of play' in a 4-2-3-1 system.
Turns out that UEFA also value patterns of play and even teach it as part of their coaching program:
"If you are coaching the 4-2-3-1 system or you are participating in any high-level coaching courses such as the UEFA A or B licence where patterns of play are a requirement you may find the below valuable."
https://totalfootballanalysis.com/training-analysis/coaching-patterns-of-play-in-4-2-3-1-tactics
Trying to apply it to football, and excluding a significant portion of our staff in order to make it fit just to put a downer on an appointment you know absolutely nothing about isn't particularly insightful. It seems lost on you that those making these appointments also know a lot more than you and me, but again, you'll only pull on that particular thread until it takes you to something that doesn't agree with you.
But hey, if you're determined to turn any shred news regarding the club into a negative, that's entirely up to you. Enjoy your pit.
Yep. The more big brains we can get into the club on the data analytics side, the better.
City and, in particular, Liverpool have reportedly been forging a path in this field for some time now. About time we also took up the mantle. Being smarter than wealthier rivals like City and Newcastle, is one way we can keep pace.
You don't want a big football fan though because they could be subject to confirmation bias which is surprisingly easy to do in data analysis.
Just being told what to look for by somebody who knows is enough.
Seems like a pretty positive appointment. Was he sought after by other clubs too? I have no clue about the level of these kind of things just want to know if we are getting one of the best
Good.
Can we also get a new manager with new coaches. Data alone wont be enough if the decisions at the end get taken by Ole and his rookie coaching staff.
Can we also get a new manager with new coaches. Data alone wont be enough if the decisions at the end get taken by Ole and his rookie coaching staff.
Who are they again?
But otherwise, finally about damn time the club has someone in charge of data science, felt like we've been lagging behind in this sort of areas compared to other clubs.
Some guys I found on LinkedIn
Fred needs to use his body weight and accelerated speed better to adjust his geospatial energy in order to have a better ball control and low gravity center like he was a mechanical pencil.
That is a fair point
Was not my point and I am sorry if that is how it came through.Trying to apply it to football, and excluding a significant portion of our staff in order to make it fit just to put a downer on an appointment you know absolutely nothing about isn't particularly insightful. It seems lost on you that those making these appointments also know a lot more than you and me, but again, you'll only pull on that particular thread until it takes you to something that doesn't agree with you.
But hey, if you're determined to turn any shred news regarding the club into a negative, that's entirely up to you. Enjoy your pit.
I agree that I don't know this person but I know he has never worked in the role he was given and I don't like that. We shouldn't be a training ground for inexperienced people.
Academic knowledge is not the same as experience. I have seen elsewhere people from academia dropped in practical jobs and it's not as effective as hiring somebody who has done the actual job (and posssibly has the same academia credentials).
That is all I am saying. I am allowed to be skeptical
While I agree that it helps to have experience with sports stats, or football stats specifically, Dominic Jordan is not being dropped into a vacuum at United. There is already a team of analysts, supposedly with tools and processes and work flows in place, and Jordan is being brought in to lead that team. For that reason, his job is probably not so much to do the actual analysis, but to optimize the team's performance. He does seem to have a good background for that, having led data analytics teams previously. This is what the relevant BBC article says:Was not my point and I am sorry if that is how it came through.
I agree that I don't know this person but I know he has never worked in the role he was given and I don't like that. We shouldn't be a training ground for inexperienced people.
Academic knowledge is not the same as experience. I have seen elsewhere people from academia dropped in practical jobs and it's not as effective as hiring somebody who has done the actual job (and posssibly has the same academia credentials).
That is all I am saying. I am allowed to be skeptical
His education and experience also provide the right data/stats knowledge and skills to deeply understand and fit in with what the team is doing. So I wouldn't be worried so much about him not having the sports angle. In any case, whoever was in charge of hiring him at United will have been aware of Jordan's specific background, and will also have considered other candidates, likely including people with more experience in sports specifically - yet still chose him. That can't be by accident.
To be clear, I'm not trying to argue that the appointment will necessarily prove right or be super successful, I just think that considering the context and circumstances a bit more helps to understand why Jordan was appointed (among everyone who theoretically could have been), and to be more optimistic about it.
There's nothing confusing about it. The club are strengthening their capabilities when it comes to making best use of data. And it's normal for a Sports Scientist (Murtough) to look for ways to to strengthen the analytics department further.