Chelsea appoint Thomas Tuchel

[Cascarino]

Fabinho is. Henderson is bang average.

He's really not, he's massively underrated on this forum.
Fabinho and Henderson instead of Mctominay and Fred would have had a transformative effect on United over the last few seasons.

 

[Sviken]

He's really not, he's massively underrated on this forum.
Fabinho and Henderson instead of Mctominay and Fred would have had a transformative effect on United over the last few seasons.

Absolute nonsense. If you put Fabinho and Henderson in this team with Ole in charge they wouldn't know where their ass is from their head, let's be real here. When did Henderson ever impress prior to Klopp? And even with Klopp he is a decent player, but nothing really special. Klopp has found a niche for him, but generally which top team would pick him as their midfielder if they had an opportunity? Madrid? Bayern? City? Chelsea? PSG? I can't think of none that would pick Henderson as a starter. He's better than McTominay, but I'm not even sure he is better than Fred. At least the Brazil version of Fred.

 

[Cascarino]

Absolute nonsense. If you put Fabinho and Henderson in this team with Ole in charge they wouldn't know where their ass is from their head, let's be real here. When did Henderson ever impress prior to Klopp? And even with Klopp he is a decent player, but nothing really special. Klopp has found a niche for him, but generally which top team would pick him as their midfielder if they had an opportunity? Madrid? Bayern? City? Chelsea? PSG? I can't think of none that would pick Henderson as a starter. He's better than McTominay, but I'm not even sure he is better than Fred. At least the Brazil version of Fred.

It's not even particularly close.

 

[Relevated]

Absolute nonsense. If you put Fabinho and Henderson in this team with Ole in charge they wouldn't know where their ass is from their head, let's be real here. When did Henderson ever impress prior to Klopp? And even with Klopp he is a decent player, but nothing really special. Klopp has found a niche for him, but generally which top team would pick him as their midfielder if they had an opportunity? Madrid? Bayern? City? Chelsea? PSG? I can't think of none that would pick Henderson as a starter. He's better than McTominay, but I'm not even sure he is better than Fred. At least the Brazil version of Fred.

Agree x10000

 

[jakko]

And Bruno hasn't? He's single-handedly carried this team for the past 2 years dragging it to top 4 twice and even finishing 2nd. Bruno has his faults, faults that under a top manager would be quickly rectified, but let's not pretend Hazard was at the top of his game all of the time. He had some spells that he was absolutely unplayable, especially under Mourinho and Conte, but at the same time he had spells were he was completely anonymous. Bruno has been absolute shit this season, but even in his shit form he has basically scrounged us a number of points, both in the CL and PL.

You guys seriously believe that you'd challenge for the league if Ole was in charge of your club? Or even play good football? Not long ago you were talking about a full rebuild, then you hired a great manager and went on to win the CL and are title favorites without much change to your squad. Even if we pretend Chelsea are somehow a better team than us, you're not that much better in terms of quality. We should still be right there on top of you if we had a similar calibre of manager at the helm. Liverpool are the same. Who can argue here that a midfield of Fabinho-Henderson-Oxlade Chamberlain is championship material? On paper it's the same dross as ours, yet Klopp has them performing while Ole can't. It's that simple.

Single-handedly is overblown, just your way to make it sound better than he actually was. My point was when Bruno was playing well it was down to Bruno but when Bruno is playing shit its all down to Ole, surely it works both ways?. it didn't matter who was in charge of Chelsea, Hazard was Hazard, I just find it odd people use Bruno poor form all down to Ole and hide behind that.

No i don't think Ole would have us challenge for the title, But that didn't stop alot of your fanbase thinking you could win/challenge for the title this season. Most had Utd finishing ahead of us mainly because you finished above us last season.
I never thought we needed a full rebuild at Chelsea, i rated most of the players we had. The same players who played well for Lampard is the same for Tuchel. Mendy, Silva, Chilwell, James, Mount, Kante, Kovacic won fans player of the season under Lamaprd, Pulisic were all good for Lampard. Werner is still the same misses easy chances, Ziyech still very hot and cold, Havertz has improved but you could say thats down to him being more settled. The only player who has improved under Tuchel is Rudiger but he was very good defender before Lampard under Sarri and Conte.

Fabinho and Henderson are good players though, Rival fans always under rate other teams player over rate their own.

 

[Bluelion7]

Well, I think the player to make the biggest stride is actually Christensen, and I give a lot of that credit to Silva.
I think it goes to making a substantial point though: no dramatic changes to personnel, no dramatic player improvements, yet a substantial difference in the unit as a whole. Not sure if you can give a mgr a better compliment.

 

[Ekeke]

He's really not, he's massively underrated on this forum.
Fabinho and Henderson instead of Mctominay and Fred would have had a transformative effect on United over the last few seasons.

Agree. They just play the game completely differently. Granted its a style that suits playing with Salah where you play a pass in behind the defence and even if he doesnt get it, he's pressing the defender and has a good chance to force a mistake or win the ball and start an attack. And maybe if they were at Liverpool our CMs might do this too. But its something that would clearly help us in the buildup at times to try those kinds of passes more often than slowly going sideways and nowhere like our midfield currently does far too often.

 

[Ekeke]

Well, I think the player to make the biggest stride is actually Christensen, and I give a lot of that credit to Silva.
I think it goes to making a substantial point though: no dramatic changes to personnel, no dramatic player improvements, yet a substantial difference in the unit as a whole. Not sure if you can give a mgr a better compliment.

Not just that but Zouma started to show some of his potential and was then sold for good money and is doing well for the most out performing team in the premier league and is playing for his national team. So not only are the Chelsea defenders he's working with doing much better, but he also made money on another one doing well elsewhere. Hell of a trick

 

[WeePat]

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[Mb194dc]

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He's right, lots of variance in football, which is why it's a good sport to watch and the favourites don't always win cup competitions.

Some rumours circulating we might be open to offers for Werner or Ziyech in January, seems strange to me especially Werner. Hard to give enough minutes to keep CHO, Werner, Lukaku, Ziyech, Havertz, Mount and Pulisic all happy at the club at the same time though. Then again injuries.... I don't think Lukaku should be walking in to the team again, that's for sure. His style suits some opposition much better than others, shouldn't start all games with all those options.

 

[WeePat]

He's right, lots of variance in football, which is why it's a good sport to watch and the favourites don't always win cup competitions.

Some rumours circulating we might be open to offers for Werner or Ziyech in January, seems strange to me especially Werner. Hard to give enough minutes to keep CHO, Werner, Lukaku, Ziyech, Havertz, Mount and Pulisic all happy at the club at the same time though. Then again injuries.... I don't think Lukaku should be walking in to the team again, that's for sure. His style suits some opposition much better than others, shouldn't start all games with all those options.

I think it was interesting to hear Tuchel talk about xg because the concept receives a lot of push back for some reason.

I could see Ziyech leaving but I hope we just keep the squad intact until the summer. Let's win something big and then look at letting go of unhappy players or players who don't quite fit into Tuchel's preferred way of playing.

Lukaku is an interesting situation. Tuchel has clearly tweaked the roles James and Chilwell play, they almost play like extra playmakers in midfield. I want to see Lukaku with them, most of his earlier games were with Alonso and Azpi as the wingbacks and they're just nowhere near as dynamic and creative as Chilwell and James.

 

[stefan92]

Some rumours circulating we might be open to offers for Werner or Ziyech in January, seems strange to me especially Werner.

If Werner leaves I guess that means Tuchel sees Havertz as a full time striker for the future? So more or less having Lukaku as a true 9 and Havertz as a false 9 as options?

But even than, who would be their backup? Really seems a bit strange.

 

[Cascarino]

Agree. They just play the game completely differently. Granted its a style that suits playing with Salah where you play a pass in behind the defence and even if he doesnt get it, he's pressing the defender and has a good chance to force a mistake or win the ball and start an attack. And maybe if they were at Liverpool our CMs might do this too. But its something that would clearly help us in the buildup at times to try those kinds of passes more often than slowly going sideways and nowhere like our midfield currently does far too often.

Yeah there's a holistic approach that benefits the whole side. Those passes that hit during the transition can be super effective when you have someone like Salah, the fifth goal in the United Liverpool game was a good example of winning the ball in a decent area and then unlocking the attack quickly. I think both Fred and Mctominay do have certain qualities but when you have both in the engine room I feel progressing the ball can be quite stilited.

You guys have overrated your squad many times over the last years, but not this year. Sure your midfield isn't the best, but you have a mass of talent in there. A top manager would easily make them into a real threat.

Yeah I agree with this. I think there are elements of the United squad that are a little unsuited to each other, and the quality is a bit unbalanced, but on the whole there's a lot to work with and I don't think it would take much time at all under the right manager to have them competing.

I think it was interesting to hear Tuchel talk about xg because the concept receives a lot of push back for some reason.

I think some of the pushback derives from how the concept is applied. After a game people will post the respective xgs to make a point about which team deserved to win etc, and I think in that kind of context it's being misused. As an analytical tool it's very useful, and as Tuchel said solely looking at results alone can be a little misleading, so having a look at the underlying performance metrics can give a more balanced view.

 

[hasanejaz88]

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I'm sure you'll still find plenty of people here who will say xG is an overrated stat that doesn't say anything, especially if it doesn't fit their narrative.

 

[adexkola]

I'm sure you'll still find plenty of people here who will say xG is an overrated stat that doesn't say anything, especially if it doesn't fit their narrative.

Yeah, something about how it's useless over a span of less than 10 games

 

[Dave Smith]

Yeah, something about how it's useless over a span of less than 10 games

Tbf, there is a lot of merit to this argument as that allows you to look at how the team in performing against a range of sides and how they're performing over a sustained period.

Game to game, it is still a good measure as it tells you how well you've played, however I am not sure how much more it tells you other than what the eye test can tell you.

For me, it is a good stat, but like all stats the bigger the sample size the more you can extrapolate.

Personally, I would like to see Tuchel's Chelsea's xG over his 50 games (after tonight's game) then compare it to City's, the Dipper's and Utd's over the same time (possibly, even add Lampard's last 50.)

That would be a great set of stats to chew over as it would provide a good insight into how this Chelsea side compares to it's peers/how Chelsea's peers compare/Tuchel v Lampard.

 

[Kostov]

Absolute nonsense. If you put Fabinho and Henderson in this team with Ole in charge they wouldn't know where their ass is from their head, let's be real here. When did Henderson ever impress prior to Klopp? And even with Klopp he is a decent player, but nothing really special. Klopp has found a niche for him, but generally which top team would pick him as their midfielder if they had an opportunity? Madrid? Bayern? City? Chelsea? PSG? I can't think of none that would pick Henderson as a starter. He's better than McTominay, but I'm not even sure he is better than Fred. At least the Brazil version of Fred.

That's pure delusion right there. Henderson is miles better midfielder than Fred of Brazil, or whatever version there exists.

 

[WeePat]

I think some of the pushback derives from how the concept is applied. After a game people will post the respective xgs to make a point about which team deserved to win etc, and I think in that kind of context it's being misused. As an analytical tool it's very useful, and as Tuchel said solely looking at results alone can be a little misleading, so having a look at the underlying performance metrics can give a more balanced view.

Yeah but that kind of pushback comes from those who are generally in favour of xg. There are huge sections of football fans who dismiss the concept outright.

 

[ZolaWasMagic]

He's right, lots of variance in football, which is why it's a good sport to watch and the favourites don't always win cup competitions.

Some rumours circulating we might be open to offers for Werner or Ziyech in January, seems strange to me especially Werner. Hard to give enough minutes to keep CHO, Werner, Lukaku, Ziyech, Havertz, Mount and Pulisic all happy at the club at the same time though. Then again injuries.... I don't think Lukaku should be walking in to the team again, that's for sure. His style suits some opposition much better than others, shouldn't start all games with all those options.

Werner i really dont see going. Ziyech on the other hand is possible, good player, easily better than CHO [but not the others] just way too inconsistent. And i reckon we'd sell Pulisic with a good enough offer.

To add to that, i 100% fully expect Lukaku to start on Sunday

 

[Cascarino]

Yeah but that kind of pushback comes from those who are generally in favour of xg. There are huge sections of football fans who dismiss the concept outright.

Fair point, can't really argue with that.

 

[Stacks]

He's really not, he's massively underrated on this forum.
Fabinho and Henderson instead of Mctominay and Fred would have had a transformative effect on United over the last few seasons.

Agree x10000

Agree. They just play the game completely differently. Granted its a style that suits playing with Salah where you play a pass in behind the defence and even if he doesnt get it, he's pressing the defender and has a good chance to force a mistake or win the ball and start an attack. And maybe if they were at Liverpool our CMs might do this too. But its something that would clearly help us in the buildup at times to try those kinds of passes more often than slowly going sideways and nowhere like our midfield currently does far too often.

That's pure delusion right there. Henderson is miles better midfielder than Fred of Brazil, or whatever version there exists.

Its Klopp. For England and prior to Klopp Hendo was labelled a flop. I guess we can through Milner in there too since he played more than Fabinho in some seasons so must be as good if not better than Fabinho

Absolute nonsense. If you put Fabinho and Henderson in this team with Ole in charge they wouldn't know where their ass is from their head, let's be real here. When did Henderson ever impress prior to Klopp? And even with Klopp he is a decent player, but nothing really special. Klopp has found a niche for him, but generally which top team would pick him as their midfielder if they had an opportunity? Madrid? Bayern? City? Chelsea? PSG? I can't think of none that would pick Henderson as a starter. He's better than McTominay, but I'm not even sure he is better than Fred. At least the Brazil version of Fred.

exactly and he is average for England and replaced by a Leeds player. Many players are good under Klopp but nowhere else.

 

[Rajiztar]

Also liked the way tuchel talked about Roman and answered the question about will he under pressure to put up a show for him.

 

[WeePat]

Werner i really dont see going. Ziyech on the other hand is possible, good player, easily better than CHO [but not the others] just way too inconsistent. And i reckon we'd sell Pulisic with a good enough offer.

To add to that, i 100% fully expect Lukaku to start on Sunday

I would pull the trigger on that one if a good enough offer is on the table. Fantastic talent, likable fella but utterly unreliable with his injury record.

 

[Cascarino]

Its Klopp. For England and prior to Klopp Hendo was labelled a flop. I guess we can through Milner in there too since he played more than Fabinho in some seasons so must be as good if not better than Fabinho

Klopp's obviously played a massive role but Henderson is a good player who's always been underrated on here. He moved to Liverpool for big money at the time, and was made club captain under Rodgers. He's definitely a better player than McTominay and Fred, no disrespect to those two. England doesn't have much to do with it. countless quality players have underperformed for England over the years.

Edit: You’re also mistaken about Phillips, Henderson didn’t start at the Euros because he’d missed a lot of the season through injury

 

[adexkola]

Its Klopp. For England and prior to Klopp Hendo was labelled a flop

This is nonsense.

 

[adexkola]

Tbf, there is a lot of merit to this argument as that allows you to look at how the team in performing against a range of sides and how they're performing over a sustained period.

Game to game, it is still a good measure as it tells you how well you've played, however I am not sure how much more it tells you other than what the eye test can tell you.

For me, it is a good stat, but like all stats the bigger the sample size the more you can extrapolate.

Personally, I would like to see Tuchel's Chelsea's xG over his 50 games (after tonight's game) then compare it to City's, the Dipper's and Utd's over the same time (possibly, even add Lampard's last 50.)

That would be a great set of stats to chew over as it would provide a good insight into how this Chelsea side compares to it's peers/how Chelsea's peers compare/Tuchel v Lampard.

True, unfortunately how many of us can watch 380 games over the course of the season and ingest all the data therein?

I wouldn't put any stat above an objective and comprehensive eye test however I don't trust my eyes, let alone those of random strangers!

 

[Dancfc]

Yeah but that kind of pushback comes from those who are generally in favour of xg. There are huge sections of football fans who dismiss the concept outright.

It's because many either a) can't understand the context of it (think it's being used to try and rewrite the result) or b) are still so stubbornly old fashioned to the point they don't care if strikers can't control a ball properly aslong as they score every two games so XG was always facing a losing battle against that group.

It's probably the most accurate foreshadower as it gets and unless you are literally at a Mou/Inter moment of win now at literally any cost it's a very useful tool to use.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Klopp's obviously played a massive role but Henderson is a good player who's always been underrated on here. He moved to Liverpool for big money at the time, and was made club captain under Rodgers.

No he didn't. He wasn't even their biggest signing that year. They paid around the same amount as we did for Kagawa. It was a punt.

 

[Cascarino]

No he didn't. He wasn't even their biggest signing that year. They paid around the same amount as we did for Kagawa. It was a punt.

20m back in 2011 for a 21 year old is pretty good money. But this is besides the point anyway, he's a good player.

 

[WeePat]

It's because many either a) can't understand the context of it (think it's being used to try and rewrite the result) or b) are still so stubbornly old fashioned to the point they don't care if strikers can't control a ball properly aslong as they score every two games so XG was always facing a losing battle against that group.

It's probably the most accurate foreshadower as it gets and unless you are literally at a Mou/Inter moment of win now at literally any cost it's a very useful tool to use.

Yeah it's the not understanding the context so they think you're trying to rewrite a result bit that I find frustrating.

 

[RepardReece]

A good amount of posts have aged well from the first few pages. Amusing to read how many people wrote him off here before even managing a game, probably the same ones that are writing off every manager United has been linked to.

 

[Kostov]

Its Klopp. For England and prior to Klopp Hendo was labelled a flop. I guess we can through Milner in there too since he played more than Fabinho in some seasons so must be as good if not better than Fabinho

What?

Henderson was labelled a flop ever since Liverpool paid 17m was it? United fans we laughed at Liverpool for paying so much for supposedly shit midfielder back than, we also had the benefit of still having Michael Carrick back then and being on our high horse, winning the league with someone as shit as Cleverley in the middle of the park.

However Henderson was never as bad as United fans wanted to portray him, he has been part of a Premier League and CL winning teams, very significant imo, but he was also a good midfielder even before Klopp, his passing and game intelligence is much better than Fred or McT ever showed in the PL. Of course having a world class coach such as Klopp helps and improves him, but I can't see with what you can work in players like Fred or McT.

 

[mu4c_20le]

20m back in 2011 for a 21 year old is pretty good money. But this is besides the point anyway, he's a good player.

I agree he was underrated, in some ways similar to our own Fletcher back in the day. He was alright under Rodgers, but really blossomed under Klopp's gegenpressing system, which suits his engine to a T.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I think what people don't appreciate about Henderson and football players generally is how important leadership qualities are on the pitch. Ask any Liverpool fan and they'll tell you that Henderson never stops talking to his team mates on the pitch. It's something that we miss at United at the moment. He demands high standards from the players. That said, he's been pretty poor for England. Something about the shirt makes his arse fall out.

 

[Cascarino]

I agree he was underrated, in some ways similar to our own Fletcher back in the day. He was alright under Rodgers, but really blossomed under Klopp's gegenpressing system, which suits his engine to a T.

Yeah I don't disagree with any of that, he's definitely benefitted from Klopp, not just because Klopp is a good manager but also that his qualities suit that style of football as you said.

 

[Stacks]

Klopp's obviously played a massive role but Henderson is a good player who's always been underrated on here. He moved to Liverpool for big money at the time, and was made club captain under Rodgers. He's definitely a better player than McTominay and Fred, no disrespect to those two. England doesn't have much to do with it. countless quality players have underperformed for England over the years.

Edit: You’re also mistaken about Phillips, Henderson didn’t start at the Euros because he’d missed a lot of the season through injury

This is nonsense.

What?

Henderson was labelled a flop ever since Liverpool paid 17m was it? United fans we laughed at Liverpool for paying so much for supposedly shit midfielder back than, we also had the benefit of still having Michael Carrick back then and being on our high horse, winning the league with someone as shit as Cleverley in the middle of the park.

However Henderson was never as bad as United fans wanted to portray him, he has been part of a Premier League and CL winning teams, very significant imo, but he was also a good midfielder even before Klopp, his passing and game intelligence is much better than Fred or McT ever showed in the PL. Of course having a world class coach such as Klopp helps and improves him, but I can't see with what you can work in players like Fred or McT.

y'all wanna change the narrative or maybe you weren't paying attention. He was average before Klopp in a very mediocre Liverpool team. Suarez carried them in 2014 and they were shit again after. never saw him in no Team of the season or getting nominations. He werent special.

" There were times early in Jordan Henderson’s Liverpool career, when the team were stuttering and his own performances fell short of expectations, when occasionally the harsh words would cut deep"
Had it affected him, the fierce disapproval he occasionally attracted during his early days at Anfield, as a £20m signing in a stuttering team? “I think at times it can,” he said.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/53900926
Jordan Henderson: From 'expensive flop' to Liverpool captain & Premier League champion

Former boss Brendan Rodgers initially attempted to offload the midfielder in his pursuit of USA international Dempsey.

"To be on the brink of being sold or loaned to Fulham and saying 'no I am sticking here, I want to fight for my place' - that belief in himself shines through," said former Reds defender Stephen Warnock.

"He had a lot of knocks with people putting him down, but his mental strength is probably one of the best or strongest we've seen in the Premier League. I think his mentality is phenomenal."

Henderson's growing influence
Since the arrival of Klopp in 2015, the 30-year-old midfielder has arguably elevated his game year on year.


https://www.espn.com/soccer/english...-to-arguably-liverpools-most-important-player

 

[Cascarino]

y'all wanna change the narrative or maybe you weren't paying attention. He was average before Klopp in a very mediocre Liverpool team. Suarez carried them in 2014 and they were shit again after. never saw him in no Team of the season or getting nominations. He werent special.

" There were times early in Jordan Henderson’s Liverpool career, when the team were stuttering and his own performances fell short of expectations, when occasionally the harsh words would cut deep"
Had it affected him, the fierce disapproval he occasionally attracted during his early days at Anfield, as a £20m signing in a stuttering team? “I think at times it can,” he said.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/53900926
Jordan Henderson: From 'expensive flop' to Liverpool captain & Premier League champion

Former boss Brendan Rodgers initially attempted to offload the midfielder in his pursuit of USA international Dempsey.

"To be on the brink of being sold or loaned to Fulham and saying 'no I am sticking here, I want to fight for my place' - that belief in himself shines through," said former Reds defender Stephen Warnock.

"He had a lot of knocks with people putting him down, but his mental strength is probably one of the best or strongest we've seen in the Premier League. I think his mentality is phenomenal."

Henderson's growing influence
Since the arrival of Klopp in 2015, the 30-year-old midfielder has arguably elevated his game year on year.


https://www.espn.com/soccer/english...-to-arguably-liverpools-most-important-player

To defend your position about Henderson not being a good player by linking two articles eulogising the guy is a pretty bold move.
Rodgers did try to offload him, that was a few weeks into his time at Liverpool before Henderson had ever played for him, he went on to make Henderson his captain.

I was pretty critical of Henderson early on in his career, I hold my hands up and admit I was wrong, under the right manager I've now seen exactly what he brings to his side. Yes Klopp has been great for him, but he's not a magician, the player still has to suit him and what he demands on the football pitch. You don't accidentaly fumble your way into captaining a side into becoming Premier League and European champions while playing an important role without being a good player.

Also this is the Tuchel thread, I was the one who derailed it but maybe we should take this to the Henderson/Liverpool thread.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

I like Henderson but he's definitely in the Tim Sherwood bracket of title winning captains

 

[Stacks]

To defend your position about Henderson not being a good player by linking two articles eulogising the guy is a pretty bold move.
Rodgers did try to offload him, that was a few weeks into his time at Liverpool before Henderson had ever played for him, he went on to make Henderson his captain.

I was pretty critical of Henderson early on in his career, I hold my hands up and admit I was wrong, under the right manager I've now seen exactly what he brings to his side. Yes Klopp has been great for him, but he's not a magician, the player still has to suit him and what he demands on the football pitch. You don't accidentaly fumble your way into captaining a side into becoming Premier League and European champions while playing an important role without being a good player.

Also this is the Tuchel thread, I was the one who derailed it but maybe we should take this to the Henderson/Liverpool thread.

I just said he was labelled a flop which both the articles stated. Even in 2012 they came 8th, 7th in 2013, Suarez dragged them to a title challenge and they were back to 7th in 2015. They were a mediocre team, he was captain and not nearly the best player so he, like most, was average. Not as if the was in the team of the year like Scotty P or Fletcher. He was just a player in an average team and not a stand out. My assessment stands

 

[Cascarino]

I just said he was labelled a flop which both the articles stated. Even in 2012 they came 8th, 7th in 2013, Suarez dragged them to a title challenge and they were back to 7th in 2015. They were a mediocre team, he was captain and not nearly the best player so he, like most, was average. Not as if the was in the team of the year like Scotty P or Fletcher. He was just a player in an average team and not a stand out. My assessment stands

I'm confused as to what your trying to say. Yes he struggled in his early days at Liverpool when he was a younger player, then he played an important role in the title challenge under Rodgers, then became club captain, then became an important part of their European and league success under Klopp. He was 21 and 22 in 2012 and 2013, players often peak at an older age. Even the two players you mentioned in Parker and Fletcher struggled in their early 20s as I'm sure you're aware of.

Yes, Klopp has played an important role, as he has with many others players. As Ferguson did with many players. It's usually how football works. And read the articles you yourself linked.