German Football 21/22 | Gladbach sign Farke

[do.ob]

German posters. Explain to me why Adi Hutter Gladbach looks a disfunctional monster. I don't watch their games, but some of their defeats are terrible. And during this they defeated Bayern 5.0 on a Cup match. Is this related with him being known as someone who uses man marking, or it hasn't nothing to do with that.

I actually felt he did a great job with Andre Silva at Frankfurt, particularly because they played with 2 upfront and Kostic helped him a lot to score goals, since he went to Leipzig, well, things aren't going in the right way. Anyway didn't knew Marsch was sacked.

Haters would say that he profited from having a solid defense and letting Frankfurt's attackers play out their individual class on the counter (Kostic, Rebic, Haller, Jovic and later Kostic and Silva, Kamada/Younes to a lesser degree).

Another facet is that Gladbach are done on a club level. Hofmann (contract expiring in 2023) and Ginter (2022) have openly talked about moving to bigger clubs, Zakaria (2022) and Thuram (2023) seemed to be all but gone in the summer, Plea (2023) is supposedly thinking about a move as well. Neuhaus (release clause) was linked with a host of top clubs, but has been pretty wank this season. Everyone knows that making top four with Rose and getting out of their group of death in the CL/getting to that cup game against Dortmund last season was all they could hope to accomplish with Gladbach. Now it seems like they are just passing the season until they can move next summer. Against the top clubs the team gave it their all, against the lesser clubs they keep dropping points. Some injuries are part of the story as well.

It's objectively a shitty situation for Hütter. So it's hard to say how much is down to himself and how much is just a consequence of Gladbach getting to the end of their cycle.

 

[stefan92]

German posters. Explain to me why Adi Hutter Gladbach looks a disfunctional monster. I don't watch their games, but some of their defeats are terrible. And during this they defeated Bayern 5.0 on a Cup match. Is this related with him being known as someone who uses man marking, or it hasn't nothing to do with that.

I actually felt he did a great job with Andre Silva at Frankfurt, particularly because they played with 2 upfront and Kostic helped him a lot to score goals, since he went to Leipzig, well, things aren't going in the right way. Anyway didn't knew Marsch was sacked.

We already have some posts about that on the last pages here, might help to read them to get some more insights.

TL;DR many Gladbach players wanted to leave for bigger clubs and seem to have left the club already behind them mentally. Rare exceptions are those spectacular top games against for example Bayern. But against day to day opposition they just don't seem to care enough. It's something that already started last season under Rose and totally ruined it (not qualifying for any European competition), so there are mitigating circumstances for Hütter.

With that said, at this pace he is very rapidly losing the arguments in his favour and has to be asked why he can't turn it around and get the team working as they should.

Regarding Andre Silva: I think he is a great striker, but when Kostic crosses you feel like you could just stick a 2m tall wooden pile in the box and it would become a goal, he already is at 3 goals and 8 assists this season again, while Frankfurt have absolutely bad strikers now. That dysfunctional Leipzig team just is far away from giving a striker that kind of support

 

[SCP]

@do.ob Thanks. I always heard positive things from Hutter regarding his previous work at RB Salzburg, but for whatever reason some hipster portuguese Neo Guardiola Twitter guys always moaned against him because his teams man marked, so it challenged their possession style and zonal marking football concepts.

Not enough time to watch Bundesliga matches and to read all the posts here regarding German Football @stefan92 , but I guess his problems are much bigger than simply tatics.

 

[do.ob]

To get an idea how much trouble Gladbach are in:

That's 15 players who they have to renew or sell in the summer. €180m in TM market value, of which €62m can leave the club for free this summer as things stand right now and the rest is doing a pretty good job of tanking their value.

 

[stefan92]

@do.ob Thanks. I always heard positive things from Hutter regarding his previous work at RB Salzburg, but for whatever reason some hipster portuguese Neo Guardiola Twitter guys always moaned against him because his teams man marked, so it challenged their possession style and zonal marking football concepts.

Not enough time to watch Bundesliga matches and to read all the posts here regarding German Football @stefan92 , but I guess his problems are much bigger than simply tatics.

No worries, no one has time to read it all, just wanted to say it's not a new discussion here

Actually I'm a bit surprised by that tactical analysis that he would use man-marking? I would associate him with high-pressing systems that surely are not really like traditional man-marking? He might clearly assign which striker runs on which defender or something like that, but in general his team is not special in that regard or much different from other high-pressing teams I think.

 

[do.ob]

No worries, no one has time to read it all, just wanted to say it's not a new discussion here

Actually I'm a bit surprised by that tactical analysis that he would use man-marking? I would associate him with high-pressing systems that surely are not really like traditional man-marking? He might clearly assign which striker runs on which defender or something like that, but in general his team is not special in that regard or much different from other high-pressing teams I think.

Pushing your backline up the pitch and defending man to man is the most extreme version of pressing. You cover basically every available passing option your opponent has, but if someone beats his man things can snowball very badly very easily.

 

[SCP]

No worries, no one has time to read it all, just wanted to say it's not a new discussion here

Actually I'm a bit surprised by that tactical analysis that he would use man-marking? I would associate him with high-pressing systems that surely are not really like traditional man-marking? He might clearly assign which striker runs on which defender or something like that, but in general his team is not special in that regard or much different from other high-pressing teams I think.

Yeah, the complaints from one particular guy there (actually he works now for Eleven Sports) was that Hutter teams man marked and were defensively awfull, anyway Gasperini teams man mark all over the pitch and are great to watch, don't know if he was being precise here, as a journalist I expect him to not lie, but probably isn't a full Bielsa man marking like.

 

[giorno]

but for whatever reason some hipster portuguese Neo Guardiola Twitter guys always moaned against him because his teams man marked, so it challenged their possession style and zonal marking football concepts.

Oh, the irony

 

[SCP]

Oh, the irony

 

[stefan92]

Yeah, the complaints from one particular guy there (actually he works now for Eleven Sports) was that Hutter teams man marked and were defensively awfull, anyway Gasperini teams man mark all over the pitch and are great to watch, don't know if he was being precise here, as a journalist I expect him to not lie, but probably isn't a full Bielsa man marking like.

Probably really something along the line of what @do.ob said what caused that analysis. His teams had some bad runs, maybe those remarks were made during one of those, I could understand that.

 

[do.ob]

I thought this was solid:

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But this is really art:

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[giorno]

Translation of the first tweet?

 

[stefan92]

Translation of the first tweet?

"Malen" is the german word for "paint", so the players mentioned would create the sentence "Haaland can paint Rose", in the last match Dortmund's three scorers where Haaland, Can and Malen, so that it gave the question "Can Haaland paint?" This screenshot was therefore called "Prove that he can"

 

[Lagger]

It is amazing how much the supporters of one of the top 15 clubs in Europe buy the victim myth.

There are hints that referees subconciously favor the better team in some decisions, i think this may be true. BVB supporters never seem to remember that in 99% of their matches, *they* are in that role.

That doesn't count, though. Just like it doesn't count if they're doing the competition killing by buying players from lesser clubs. Come on, you should know better than making such an argument. All these things are only condemnable if Bayern is doing them. In fact, it is Bayern's doing them that makes them evil. Not the actions themselves.

 

[Lagger]

If Watzke keeps escalating this maybe they can at least keep Zwayer from refereeing any more Dortmund games.

Hmm, says alot about the quality of the BVB team that you think you need to cheat your way into eliminating a referee with social media pressure.

Maybe get good and win games on the pitch? Championships aren't won on social media, maybe that's why the last 10 years have been so one-sided... I don't know, don't care.. not my problem.

 

[Acrobat7]

When is the last time you have had a new champion?

He said, and i quote: „Who would have thought that Ligue 1 would turn out to be competitive.“
Which, when looking at the table, it clearly is not.
Even, if we understand it as him implying that it is more competitive than Bundesliga, then it is still wrong.

 

[do.ob]

Hmm, says alot about the quality of the BVB team that you think you need to cheat your way into eliminating a referee with social media pressure.

Maybe get good and win games on the pitch? Championships aren't won on social media, maybe that's why the last 10 years have been so one-sided... I don't know, don't care.. not my problem.

Feel free to look through this thread. Then we can talk about good wins on the pitch.

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[JPRouve]

He said, and i quote: „Who would have thought that Ligue 1 would turn out to be competitive.“
Which, when looking at the table, it clearly is not.
Even, if we understand it as him implying that it is more competitive than Bundesliga, then it is still wrong.

Just tell me when is the last time you have had a different champion.

PS: I'm teasing you.

 

[Acrobat7]

Just tell me when is the last time you have had a different champion.

PS: I'm teasing you.

Bayern will obviously remain deserved champions until Dortmund is finally allowed to pick their refs temselves.

PS: I know. It was about his stupid post.

 

[FootballHQ]

Sorry a bit late to the Klassiker debate but how come the match fixing ref didn't get banned for life given it was proven?

 

[stefan92]

Sorry a bit late to the Klassiker debate but how come the match fixing ref didn't get banned for life given it was proven?

He was involved, but also was helping discovering it. He was banned for six months, but it wasn't made public that he was convicted as guilty, it was communicated as due to formal reasons. Only some journalists years later discovered and published this.

 

[RedDevilMachine]

Would hardly describe Ligue 1 as competitive. PSG have a monopoly all over it.

PSG didn't win the title last season and most of their games are pretty hard-fought. They literally almost lost in their last game.

Ummmm… mate, you might want to check out the league table in France.

The league table doesn't reflect accurately in the games which turn out to be a lot more competitive with the scorelines a lot closer. People used to make fun of Ligue 1 for being a farmer's league but I think this term has to go to the Bundesliga now. You have Monchengladbach a decent team who just lost 0-6 and Greuther Furth who lost 1-7, 3-6. There seems to be no defending in Germany at all. It makes sense now why players like Sancho, Kagawa, Sahin who lit up the Bundesliga end up struggling in the Premier League.

 

[Blackwidow]

He was involved, but also was helping discovering it. He was banned for six months, but it wasn't made public that he was convicted as guilty, it was communicated as due to formal reasons. Only some journalists years later discovered and published this.

He was a 22-year-old linesman then. Not doing something really actively (even if Hoyzer once gabe him 300 EUR) but probably looking the other way about what his boss did. That was 17 or more years ago.

 

[Acrobat7]

It makes sense now why players like Sancho, Kagawa, Sahin who lit up the Bundesliga end up struggling in the Premier League.

Oh my… not this take again.

 

[Zehner]

PSG didn't win the title last season and most of their games are pretty hard-fought. They literally almost lost in their last game.

The league table doesn't reflect accurately in the games which turn out to be a lot more competitive with the scorelines a lot closer. People used to make fun of Ligue 1 for being a farmer's league but I think this term has to go to the Bundesliga now. You have Monchengladbach a decent team who just lost 0-6 and Greuther Furth who lost 1-7, 3-6. There seems to be no defending in Germany at all. It makes sense now why players like Sancho, Kagawa, Sahin who lit up the Bundesliga end up struggling in the Premier League.

Oh, it actually made sense all the time. The Bundesliga was probably the world leader in the development of modern and tactically apt coaches while United followed a dusted and out dated managerial approach and adjusted it's course as quickly as container ship stuck in the Suez Canal.

I'm sure now that you have finally appointed a coach not living in the past, you can get as much out of your Bundesliga signings as the rest of the EPL did for the better part of the last 10 years

 

[Hansi Fick]

Safe to say us Germans are happiest when we are "world leaders"

 

[strongwalker]

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Manuel Gräfe (Germany's one true elite referee in recent years, who had to end his career upon hitting the age limit) had a strong opinion as well.

"The balance wasn't right. That's part of a top match, that the referee has the soft skills and works through things accordingly. You can't always side with the arguments against a penalty [for Dortmund] and then you take the arguments for a penalty [for Bayern]. I can absolutely understand the anger of Dortmund. The deicisions went at the expense of BVB and therefore unfortunately decided the game."

And now this:

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If Watzke keeps escalating this maybe they can at least keep Zwayer from refereeing any more Dortmund games.

I distinctly remember the uproar when Hoeneß once declared "I will make sure this clown never referees another Bayern match again!" But I guess BVB folks never were part of it

 

[strongwalker]

PSG didn't win the title last season and most of their games are pretty hard-fought. They literally almost lost in their last game.

The league table doesn't reflect accurately in the games which turn out to be a lot more competitive with the scorelines a lot closer. People used to make fun of Ligue 1 for being a farmer's league but I think this term has to go to the Bundesliga now. You have Monchengladbach a decent team who just lost 0-6 and Greuther Furth who lost 1-7, 3-6. There seems to be no defending in Germany at all. It makes sense now why players like Sancho, Kagawa, Sahin who lit up the Bundesliga end up struggling in the Premier League.

Bayern did their best to keep the league competitive PSG style by hiring Ancelotti, then Kovac. Nobody took the offer, so they shrugged and focussed on being good in Europe.

 

[RedDevilMachine]

Oh, it actually made sense all the time. The Bundesliga was probably the world leader in the development of modern and tactically apt coaches while United followed a dusted and out dated managerial approach and adjusted it's course as quickly as container ship stuck in the Suez Canal.

I'm sure now that you have finally appointed a coach not living in the past, you can get as much out of your Bundesliga signings as the rest of the EPL did for the better part of the last 10 years

What are you talking about? I'm discussing with the other poster about the competitiveness of Ligue 1 vs Bundesliga. What has this got to do with the grassroot development of the Bundesliga and Man Utd's new coach.

 

[do.ob]

I distinctly remember the uproar when Hoeneß once declared "I will make sure this clown never referees another Bayern match again!" But I guess BVB folks never were part of it

Well look what Bayern's media pressure has gotten them with the refs. Why shouldn't Dortmund do the same?

Former referee Babak Rafati is another one to come out now.

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And Saturday's game wasn't even in the top 5 of most one sided officiating in the last 10 years between the two clubs. Yet Zwayer's double standards are getting nation wide headlines. Why? What's the difference? Because Dortmund made a fuss.

 

[Zehner]

What are you talking about? I'm discussing with the other poster about the competitiveness of Ligue 1 vs Bundesliga. What has this got to do with the grassroot development of the Bundesliga and Man Utd's new coach.

There seems to be no defending in Germany at all. It makes sense now why players like Sancho, Kagawa, Sahin who lit up the Bundesliga end up struggling in the Premier League.

Of course you were

 

[Blackwidow]

As long Dortmund does put all the blame to the referree and does not look on themselves and their mistakes it is fine with me...

 

[stefan92]

In other news: Roger Schmidt was allegedly the preferred option to replace Marsch, but now confirmed he will stay at PSV Eindhoven and won't leave in the middle of the season. So the search continues.

And a league deeper: Hannover 96 announced they will wait with signing a new permanent manager until the winter break. After publicly announcing that we were in talks with Rösler and Thioune we will now continue with interim Dambrowski and see what happens, he might even stay in the job.

I fecking hate our president by now, did great work in the first years of his rein, but the last few years are just horrible.

 

[hasanejaz88]

In other news: Roger Schmidt was allegedly the preferred option to replace Marsch, but now confirmed he will stay at PSV Eindhoven and won't leave in the middle of the season. So the search continues.

And a league deeper: Hannover 96 announced they will wait with signing a new permanent manager until the winter break. After publicly announcing that we were in talks with Rösler and Thioune we will now continue with interim Dambrowski and see what happens, he might even stay in the job.

I fecking hate our president by now, did great work in the first years of his rein, but the last few years are just horrible.

Oh darn, would've loved to see him back in the BL. Liked his Leverkusen team, though they crashed in his last season.

 

[do.ob]

In any case: wouldn't Schmidt just be more of the same as Marsch? Extreme chaos, full throttle pressing, but not a lot in terms of a possession approach? I don't think Leipzig can expect to challenge Dortmund in normal form (let alone Bayern) if they go down such a one-dimensional route.

 

[stefan92]

In any case: wouldn't Schmidt just be more of the same as Marsch? Extreme chaos, full throttle pressing, but not a lot in terms of a possession approach? I don't think Leipzig can expect to challenge Dortmund in normal form (let alone Bayern) if they go down such a one-dimensional route.

Yes. What do you expect when they get rid of their DoF and their manager, there is a lack of football competence now in Leipzig.

 

[Zehner]

In any case: wouldn't Schmidt just be more of the same as Marsch? Extreme chaos, full throttle pressing, but not a lot in terms of a possession approach? I don't think Leipzig can expect to challenge Dortmund in normal form (let alone Bayern) if they go down such a one-dimensional route.

Must admit I haven't watched any of his PSV games but since he's still popular among Leverkusen fans, you hear a few reports about how he's doing here and then. Even when he was still in China, the saying was that he learned a few lessons and tried to implement more ideas about how to utilize possession phases. Eindhoven is currently ranked 3rd in terms of possession in the Eredivisie but not sure what to make of that.

Another question is: Which options does Leipzig even have? Most names that were debated last summer are at new clubs now. Jaissle has just taken over Salzburg but that might not be the biggest obstacle. Maybe Kuntz.

 

[stefan92]

Maybe Kuntz.

He just took over the Turkish national team. I don't think he would leave them after just two or three games?

There is one obvious name who is CL proven, proven to be able to quickly turn around teams in crisis: Favre.

But of course he would stand for an even further departure from the RB philosophy than Nagelsmann, so I doubt Mintzlaff will go for him.

 

[Cheimoon]

Must admit I haven't watched any of his PSV games but since he's still popular among Leverkusen fans, you hear a few reports about how he's doing here and then. Even when he was still in China, the saying was that he learned a few lessons and tried to implement more ideas about how to utilize possession phases. Eindhoven is currently ranked 3rd in terms of possession in the Eredivisie but not sure what to make of that.

Another question is: Which options does Leipzig even have? Most names that were debated last summer are at new clubs now. Jaissle has just taken over Salzburg but that might not be the biggest obstacle. Maybe Kuntz.

Eindhoven play in the Eerste Divisie, the Dutch second tier.

Anyway, PSV's competitors this season are Feyenoord (Slot) and Ajax (Ten Hag), and both their coaches play similar styles (quick vertical football, strong press), so being third in that standing is not a bad thing. The main problem I see with PSV is that they are not consistent enough and get too many injuries, but I don't follow it closely enough - let's summon up @Eendracht maakt macht and @PSV here.

 

[do.ob]

Must admit I haven't watched any of his PSV games but since he's still popular among Leverkusen fans, you hear a few reports about how he's doing here and then. Even when he was still in China, the saying was that he learned a few lessons and tried to implement more ideas about how to utilize possession phases. Eindhoven is currently ranked 3rd in terms of possession in the Eredivisie but not sure what to make of that.

Another question is: Which options does Leipzig even have? Most names that were debated last summer are at new clubs now. Jaissle has just taken over Salzburg but that might not be the biggest obstacle. Maybe Kuntz.

Naturally I'm basing my opinion on Schmidt almost exclusively on his Leverkusen days. But with all due respect to the CSL, I think it's pretty irrelevant what happens there and I don't really trust the Werkself.de users you're referring to much either: Schmidt seems to be a very polarizing topic there to this day, that creates a lot of agenda driven postings.
I also once read an article that basically said: don't trust the passing stats of Dutch defensive players, because teams in Eredivisie don't really pressure them. However that was a couple of years ago, so things might have changed since then.

Other coaches Kicker named were:
Tedesco: (has to be joke, right, @Rektsanwalt?) at Schalke he couldn't create a constructive build up sequence even if his life depended on it.
Terzic: coached half a season at Dortmund. I don't think he showed anything promising enough tactically to give him the Leipzig job. Things were quite disappointing until they lost to Frankfurt and the CL seemed all but gone, but after that I would say it was more a huge team effort (much like Kovac winning the league) rather than spectacular coaching.


I think Favre would be a pretty good coach for them, the low amount of public and title pressure at Leipzig could help him a lot, too. But he's the polar opposite of their corporate identity, so he probably won't be an option.