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Red Bull have just said in the message about them appealing Max's penalty (and asking for Hamilton to be penalized instead) that the collision with Lewis fecked up Max's rear tyres. Apparently he had to lift on the straights to keep them from failing completely.
:lol:

Good luck Red Bull. Clownshoes operation.
 

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I don't think Max was break testing him. Basically it was feck up by FIA which should tell chasing car first and then Max but they couldn't reach Merc because they were complaining about the situation on the radio. Max saw that DRS line is very close and slowed down even more and Lewis probably thought that he is giving him position on his own just to take it back imidiately to avoid a penalty and didn't went by. If Hamilton would know that Max was instructed to give up the position that crash never happens.
Even if Max is told by the race director to give him the place back why should Lewis be willing to make the overtake right before the DRS line so that he will lose the place immediately being given it back.
 

SilentWitness

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Every weekend I think I will give Max another chance to change my mind on him but he continues to be a cnut.
 

Abizzz

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Even if Max is told by the race director to give him the place back why should Lewis be willing to make the overtake right before the DRS line so that he will lose the place immediately being given it back.
Not only that but no one ever gives a place back by braking on the line on a straight. It's lunacy and RB are clowns for thinking anyone with any kind of understanding buys it.
 

sewey89

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I read it on a big Dutch news website called Nu.nl. They're quoting this as their source but it's in German: https://www.bild.de/sport/motorspor...f-bestrafung-fuer-hamilton-78455242.bild.html

Edit: apparently Bild have interviewed Helmut Marko, full interview in German in the link above.

Summary:

- Red Bull feel they have been fecked over by the stewards.
- They're working on proving that Max wasn't at fault for the crash. They're trying to get him off at minimum, and want Hamilton penalized instead.
- They feel Hamilton misread the situation and caused the crash.
- The crash fecked up Max's read tyres, he had big cuts in them and he had to lift off on the straights to keep them from falling apart
- Marko hopes they don't crash in Abu Dhabi, doesn't want the championship to be decided that way
Say no more.
 

BrilliantOrange

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I still dont understand how Lewis drove into Max though.. He was already gearing back and looked to be in control. Probably this is due to my lack of knowledge on the sport/cars/driving/racing in general, but I just dont see it..
 

sun_tzu

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Not only that but no one ever gives a place back by braking on the line on a straight. It's lunacy and RB are clowns for thinking anyone with any kind of understanding buys it.
I mean if your going to tell somebody to strategically give the place back then to my mind your totally trying to go outside the spirit of handing the place back... once they issue instructions like that then we end up with people acting erratically
 

RepardReece

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I still dont understand how Lewis drove into Max though.. He was already gearing back and looked to be in control. Probably this is due to my lack of knowledge on the sport/cars/driving/racing in general, but I just dont see it..
It's because as Lewis said Max brake checked him, if you watch from Max's POV and watch the text on the boards to the right you'll see it suddenly slow fairly quickly just before Hamilton hits him.
 

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I still dont understand how Lewis drove into Max though.. He was already gearing back and looked to be in control. Probably this is due to my lack of knowledge on the sport/cars/driving/racing in general, but I just dont see it..
He braked 2.5 g's that a massive reduction in speed with how close Lewis was behind him he had no time to react and no place to go.
 

Abizzz

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I mean if your going to tell somebody to strategically give the place back then to my mind your totally trying to go outside the spirit of handing the place back... once they issue instructions like that then we end up with people acting erratically
Yeah it's all a bit weird... no point to it really if the offending driver can choose where it's done. It's nearly as weird as thinking giving back a position gained illegally is a "punishment". Current F1 rules are shambolic all around.


Next year they'll do 2 laps behind a safety car and call that a race or something.
 

BrilliantOrange

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It's because as Lewis said Max brake checked him, if you watch from Max's POV and watch the text on the boards to the right you'll see it suddenly slow fairly quickly just before Hamilton hits him.
But Hamilton had time to gear back twice and talk about being brake checked in the meantime while max was slowing down. Surely someone with Lewis his driving skills could have prevented running into Max? I think also just Lewis - as he didnt know Max was requested to give back position - he was started and confused by Max slowing down and had moments of hesitation on what to do.. But that's not Max' fault right..
 

sun_tzu

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- he was started and confused by Max slowing down driving erratically (in breach of article 2 chapter 4 appendix L of the FIA International sporting code) and had moments of hesitation on what to do.. But Therefore that's not Max' fault right..
Fixed that for you factoring in the 2.4g deceleration and you know the actual rules and stewards findings

"In deciding to penalise the driver of Car 33, the key point for the Stewards was that the driver of car 33 then braked suddenly (69 bar) and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration.

"Whilst accepting that the driver of Car 44 could have overtaken Car 33 when that car first slowed, we understand why he (and the driver of Car 33) did not wish to be the first to cross the DRS [line]. However, the sudden braking by the driver of Car 33 was determined by the Stewards to be erratic and hence the predominant cause of the collision and hence the standard penalty of 10 seconds for this type of incident, is imposed."

Verstappen was therefore found to have breached Article 2, Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code,
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...-lap-37-collision.7GGfMvAnRIGPtMQphh7zCd.html
 

dinostar77

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I read it on a big Dutch news website called Nu.nl. They're quoting this as their source but it's in German: https://www.bild.de/sport/motorspor...f-bestrafung-fuer-hamilton-78455242.bild.html

Edit: apparently Bild have interviewed Helmut Marko, full interview in German in the link above.

Summary:

- Red Bull feel they have been fecked over by the stewards.
- They're working on proving that Max wasn't at fault for the crash. They're trying to get him off at minimum, and want Hamilton penalized instead.
- They feel Hamilton misread the situation and caused the crash.
- The crash fecked up Max's read tyres, he had big cuts in them and he had to lift off on the straights to keep them from falling apart
- Marko hopes they don't crash in Abu Dhabi, doesn't want the championship to be decided that way
Red bull arent appealing, article is wrong.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-marko-overruled-penalty-bid/
 

RepardReece

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But Hamilton had time to gear back twice and talk about being brake checked in the meantime while max was slowing down. Surely someone with Lewis his driving skills could have prevented running into Max? I think also just Lewis - as he didnt know Max was requested to give back position - he was started and confused by Max slowing down and had moments of hesitation on what to do.. But that's not Max' fault right..
Not saying Hamilton didn't do anything wrong. He was definitely confused and didn't know what to do.

But Max BRAKE CHECKED him, come on.
 

The Hilton

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But Hamilton had time to gear back twice and talk about being brake checked in the meantime while max was slowing down. Surely someone with Lewis his driving skills could have prevented running into Max? I think also just Lewis - as he didnt know Max was requested to give back position - he was started and confused by Max slowing down and had moments of hesitation on what to do.. But that's not Max' fault right..
I get that Max is your boy and everything, but "Lewis could have prevented hitting him" is a nonsense argument. Lewis could have avoided hitting Max by never leaving the pit lane, or by retiring, or running around the track instead of driving his Mercedes. That doesn't make it his responsibility.

Max slowed right down in the middle of the straight, and Lewis had no idea why and also slowed down. Then Max weaved a little bit, and stood on his brakes, with Lewis right behind him. Brake checking is illegal on the road as well as the race track, so unless you don't drive at all then you're being deliberately obtuse.
 

BrilliantOrange

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Fixed that for you factoring in the 2.4g deceleration and you know the actual rules and stewards findings


https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...-lap-37-collision.7GGfMvAnRIGPtMQphh7zCd.html
So Im not necessarily talking about who should be punished or not.. I read the above article as well and fully accept Max braked too soon according to the rules. It just baffles me that Lewis didnt manage to prevent rear ending Max.. I feel that if Max would have done the exact same thing while Lewis had known upfront from the FIA Max was giving him the place he would have just passed him without anyone batting an eye about the extent to Max' braking.
 

BrilliantOrange

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I get that Max is your boy and everything, but "Lewis could have prevented hitting him" is a nonsense argument. Lewis could have avoided hitting Max by never leaving the pit lane, or by retiring, or running around the track instead of driving his Mercedes. That doesn't make it his responsibility.

Max slowed right down in the middle of the straight, and Lewis had no idea why and also slowed down. Then Max weaved a little bit, and stood on his brakes, with Lewis right behind him. Brake checking is illegal on the road as well as the race track, so unless you don't drive at all then you're being deliberately obtuse.
So Im not making a case Max should not be punished. Max is not my boy, I dislike him as a person as much as anyone as.

Im just baffled someone with Lewis his skills wasnt able to prevent hitting him from behind in this situation..
 

RepardReece

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Again.. NOT making a case Max shouldnt be punished...
And again, he brake checked him, when would an f1 driver expect someone to brake like Max did out of nowhere. That's why Lewis ran into him, and even with all the skills in the world professionals still make mistakes
 

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So Im not making a case Max should not be punished. Max is not my boy, I dislike him as a person as much as anyone as.

Im just baffled someone with Lewis his skills wasnt able to prevent hitting him from behind in this situation..
How close he was behind Max at the time he had no reaction time.
 

slyadams

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So Im not making a case Max should not be punished. Max is not my boy, I dislike him as a person as much as anyone as.

Im just baffled someone with Lewis his skills wasnt able to prevent hitting him from behind in this situation..
Its worth noting being an F1 driver places a lot of faith in everyone around you. When the lights go green they all floor it, they trust the car in front it going to go as well. When you're heading into a hard braking zone you trust people will brake at the right point and turn in giving room etc. Heading down a straight at 200mph with a car no more than a few metres in front you have faith the car in front is going to act consistently. When Lewis came up behind Max slowing down, half way in the middle of the track and changing direction he had no idea what was going on. Its easy to say "oh, just pass him", but for all Lewis knows Max can see something up ahead. Maybe Max has a problem that is making his car hard to control. Whilst Lewis is figuring out what's going on, Max slams on the brakes, which is about the most dangerous thing you can do because Lewis could easily have had a Red Bull car up and over his halo.

This is why people have such a problem with it, its just about the most dangerous thing you can do on the track and Max only got a 10s penalty for it.
 

BrilliantOrange

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How close he was behind Max at the time he had no reaction time.
And again, he brake checked him, when would an f1 driver expect someone to brake like Max did out of nowhere. That's why Lewis ran into him, and even with all the skills in the world professionals still make mistakes
I get that.. Its an understandle mistake.. Everyone makes mistakes, but you can still be surprised about it right?

I would have expected someone with Lewis his superior driving skills and talent to be able to prevent rearing Max in this situation (even though Max was in error) if he had time to gear back twice ánd talk about getting brake checked before actually running into him..
 

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I would have expected someone with Lewis his superior driving skills and talent to be able to prevent rearing Max in this situation (even though Max was in error) if he had time to gear back twice ánd talk about getting brake checked before actually running into him..
That's a bit of a straw man argument.
 

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Its worth noting being an F1 driver places a lot of faith in everyone around you. When the lights go green they all floor it, they trust the car in front it going to go as well. When you're heading into a hard braking zone you trust people will brake at the right point and turn in giving room etc. Heading down a straight at 200mph with a car no more than a few metres in front you have faith the car in front is going to act consistently. When Lewis came up behind Max slowing down, half way in the middle of the track and changing direction he had no idea what was going on. Its easy to say "oh, just pass him", but for all Lewis knows Max can see something up ahead. Maybe Max has a problem that is making his car hard to control. Whilst Lewis is figuring out what's going on, Max slams on the brakes, which is about the most dangerous thing you can do because Lewis could easily have had a Red Bull car up and over his halo.

This is why people have such a problem with it, its just about the most dangerous thing you can do on the track and Max only got a 10s penalty for it.
And if Lewis had to retire then max wins the championship he knew exactly what he was doing in my opinion.
 

RoadTrip

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I get that.. Its an understandle mistake.. Everyone makes mistakes, but you can still be surprised about it right?

I would have expected someone with Lewis his superior driving skills and talent to be able to prevent rearing Max in this situation (even though Max was in error) if he had time to gear back twice ánd talk about getting brake checked before actually running into him..
Sometimes if people are telling you that it would not have been possible to avoid it, it’s best to take some note instead of keeping on saying someone of his ability could have avoided it. You’re entitled to your view, but a response to someone disagreeing with you isn’t to just keep saying what your view is. Put it this way, if Hamilton could have avoided it, why would he NOT have?

You’re also grouping two separate issues. If you watch the replay closely, even look at the telemetry, Lewis slowed down when he saw Max going slow. That was because he didn’t know why and didn’t realise he was being let past - if he did he just would have blasted past. You’ll see that he and Max were going at a similar speed I.e he had already slowed down enough to avoid the contact if Max had continued at his current speed. The second issue is that after that phase, Max slammed the brake. That was not expected and the gap was so small that it was not possible to react. It’s not like Lewis saw him going slow and just drove into the back of him. This has nothing to do with skill, this issue stems from someone doing something they simply shouldn’t be doing and doing what no one would expect them to - partly due to poor steward communication (Hamilton not knowing what was happening) which created the dumb situation in the first place, partly due to Max slamming the brakes. The former needs to be addressed because it’s ultimately what caused this. But even despite that, there was no reason for Max to brake.
 

BrilliantOrange

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That's a bit of a straw man argument.
Im not making an argument for anything. I am 100% on board with Max' punishment and im not trying to argue anything else.

I'm just stating my surprise it still happened to Lewis.
 

Redlambs

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I get that.. Its an understandle mistake.. Everyone makes mistakes, but you can still be surprised about it right?

I would have expected someone with Lewis his superior driving skills and talent to be able to prevent rearing Max in this situation (even though Max was in error) if he had time to gear back twice ánd talk about getting brake checked before actually running into him..
This. This is the real you.

I'm on no side here, I've hated Hamilton way back even before button did. The worst thing about you Max fans on here is not the complete lack of banter skills, no, it's the died in the wool attitude. It's one thing to have national pride, it's another to constantly defend someone who is actually dangerous because they get a little bit upset and act out like a child.

Stop hiding and you all tell us what you really think.
 

groovyalbert

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Max did ask why he was not pitted, he was told not enough time, so had to carry on
Why didn't they stick him on hards during the first red flag where he was guaranteed to come out in pole? No expert but surely following Mercedes' game plan from that grid position would have been sensible?
 

Cheimoon

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This. This is the real you.

I'm on no side here, I've hated Hamilton way back even before button did. The worst thing about you Max fans on here is not the complete lack of banter skills, no, it's the died in the wool attitude. It's one thing to have national pride, it's another to constantly defend someone who is actually dangerous because they get a little bit upset and act out like a child.

Stop hiding and you all tell us what you really think.
I think this is entirely uncalled for and looks like a deliberate misreading of @BrilliantOrange's posts.
 

ArjenIsM3

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Why didn't they stick him on hards during the first red flag where he was guaranteed to come out in pole? No expert but surely following Mercedes' game plan from that grid position would have been sensible?
They did. But then the second red flag happened and Max was in third again (due to Lewis' (in my opinion dirty) trick to feck up Max's tyre temperature for the first restart). They then had to do something to try and get past Lewis again so they fitted mediums for the second restart. That actually worked as Max was able to take back first position. So in short, Max started the race on Mediums, then switched to hard for the first restart, drove 1 lap on those, then switched back to mediums for the second restart.
 

RoadTrip

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I think they must have been banking on another red flag or safety car or something which would have allowed them to come off those mediums. Otherwise, it was a rather strange strategy move. The only other thing I can think of is putting him on mediums purely to get ahead, then hoping track position would be king. But I also find that a very dubious strategy. Overall I think even if you take away all the shenanigans, Hamilton probably ends up ahead of Max by the end purely on tyre choices.
 

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I think they must have been banking on another red flag or safety car or something which would have allowed them to come off those mediums. Otherwise, it was a rather strange strategy move. The only other thing I can think of is putting him on mediums purely to get ahead, then hoping track position would be king. But I also find that a very dubious strategy. Overall I think even if you take away all the shenanigans, Hamilton probably ends up ahead of Max by the end purely on tyre choices.
I agree. I think with two red flags so close they thought there would be another one but when there wasn't there was only one outcome.
 

Adam-Utd

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I think they must have been banking on another red flag or safety car or something which would have allowed them to come off those mediums. Otherwise, it was a rather strange strategy move. The only other thing I can think of is putting him on mediums purely to get ahead, then hoping track position would be king. But I also find that a very dubious strategy. Overall I think even if you take away all the shenanigans, Hamilton probably ends up ahead of Max by the end purely on tyre choices.
pirelli said they expected the mediums to hang on that amount of laps. I guess what they couldn’t legislate for though was 30+ qualifying style laps which clearly burnt them out faster than normal.

Mercedes got it bang on to be fair, hamilton has had great success on those hard tyres this season too
 

groovyalbert

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They did. But then the second red flag happened and Max was in third again (due to Lewis' (in my opinion dirty) trick to feck up Max's tyre temperature for the first restart). They then had to do something to try and get past Lewis again so they fitted mediums for the second restart. That actually worked as Max was able to take back first position. So in short, Max started the race on Mediums, then switched to hard for the first restart, drove 1 lap on those, then switched back to mediums for the second restart.
Ahh thanks! I guess that all makes sense, mich appreciated.
 

Cheimoon

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They did. But then the second red flag happened and Max was in third again (due to Lewis' (in my opinion dirty) trick to feck up Max's tyre temperature for the first restart). They then had to do something to try and get past Lewis again so they fitted mediums for the second restart. That actually worked as Max was able to take back first position. So in short, Max started the race on Mediums, then switched to hard for the first restart, drove 1 lap on those, then switched back to mediums for the second restart.
What's dirty about that trick though? If it's within the rules, it's OK. They're gunning for a championship here, everything goes that won't get penalized. It's not even dangerous, it's basically tactics.
 

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1) Even so.. The whole point of racing is to pass drivers which are slower than you right..

2) If this is an argument, why bother even racing at all? If it hinders you from making attempts to take on another driver because you are scared of collision?

Dont get me wrong, I fully see Max did some dangerous driving yesterday and was all but flawless.. I also agree with the penalties about gaining advantage etc in the turns.. I just really dont see why this individual moment was more his fault than Lewis' or Mercedes that Lewis bumped him.. Lewis' in his post race interview also stated that Max braked all of a sudden, while you can clearly see Lewis gearing back twice before touching Max, so he was conscious and aware of what was happening and it wasnt our of reflex that Max suddenly hit the breaks...
1) strange argument. If a driver slows in front by such a massive margin then there could have veen an issue/crash/anything further ahead because it was such a strange manoeuvre. With weaving, lifting and braking from Max.

2) Max has been causing crashes for a long time. In this race he could've taken Lewis out at least once in turn 1 if Lewis hadn't taken avoiding action. He is a dangerous driver who the FIA are letting get away with it. Because a) they want and exciting title race with more viewers and b) they want a new champion again to generate more excitement. Max has previous, any other driver has to be careful around him because he is reckless and dangerous. Its just the logical approach. That doesn't mean don't ever overtake him, but he if he is making strange manoeuvres he may be brake checking you. Which is exactly why he got the penalty.

Of course if the car in front of you lifts and brakes you will shift down in case of incident.
 

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pirelli said they expected the mediums to hang on that amount of laps. I guess what they couldn’t legislate for though was 30+ qualifying style laps which clearly burnt them out faster than normal.

Mercedes got it bang on to be fair, hamilton has had great success on those hard tyres this season too
Well they said 35 laps on the mediums I think. I think he had 37 when he put them on. So they must have been banking on slow laps or another red flag. They even got a lot of slow laps and you could still see it wasn’t the right choice.