Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

Brwned

Have you ever been in love before?
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
50,829
Pelé was almost universally regarded as the greatest until Messi hit his peak. Yeah Messi could have joined a pl club during his prime but why would he want to and who could afford his transfer and wages?
Not sure what your definition of universal is but in the UK Maradona obviously established himself firmly in their history books, and for people who grew up watching footy in the 80s, I’d say the majority would say Maradona was better. And that was passed onto many people in the generations after. It’s far from a universal belief that Pele was the best.
 

Lebo

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2016
Messages
379
I think your definition of a play maker is off. While it's true that "traditional play makers" dictated the tempo of the game more than modern attacking play makers, the were far from Xavi, Kroos and the likes as well. I very much doubt that somebody like Zidane, Laudrup, Riquelme, Pelé or Maradona ever registered 90+% passing accuracy, let alone 95+%, as Xavi or Kroos regularly did/do. And I believe that their touches per game, passing accuracy, shot attempts, etc. were much closer to Messi than to the players you mentioned. And while some might actually have been less risky in their decision making, many legends who are considered play makers were at least as risky as him (Ronaldinho, Laudrup, Zidane, Maradona, Zico, ...). If Messi isn't a play maker to you, I'd be curious who is.

Personally, I think there's no player who's better at advancing the ball up the field than Messi. He's not only incredible in terms of through balls, dribblings and finishing, he's also incredible at finding team mates between the lines, exploiting the tightest passing lanes and also switching the play to the other wing. That to me is play making - creating and finding space for yourself and team mates, unlocking defensive blocks, getting the opponent to move his formation, initiating transitions from static to dynamic situations and so forth.
He makes plays. The defitinion is the gotdamn word :lol:

It just so happens that he's the most agressive and efficient playmaker of all time, he goes forward 99% of the time unlike anyone on your list, because he can, they cant.
Play makers elevate performances of people around them. Messi doesn’t. The players I mentioned on the post does. And if you believe Messi can match Iniestas play making then I don’t know what to tell you. Messi can match his passing and chances creation sure. But not dictating play .

Advanced play makers other than Requelme you have people like Totti. I’ll be happy to get the names of a couple of players that play better with Messi more than anywhere else.
 

Lord SInister

Full Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
2,967
Location
where grasses are green and girls are pretty
Play makers elevate performances of people around them. Messi doesn’t. The players I mentioned on the post does. And if you believe Messi can match Iniestas play making then I don’t know what to tell you. Messi can match his passing and chances creation sure. But not dictating play .
Not sure from where you got the "elevate performances of people around them"= playmaker thingy.
A playmaker is someone who starts a move in attacking phase with a vision to create a goal, and if you think Messi is not that guy, I am not sure how your playmaker definition is.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
Play makers elevate performances of people around them. Messi doesn’t. The players I mentioned on the post does. And if you believe Messi can match Iniestas play making then I don’t know what to tell you. Messi can match his passing and chances creation sure. But not dictating play .

Advanced play makers other than Requelme you have people like Totti. I’ll be happy to get the names of a couple of players that play better with Messi more than anywhere else.
So you equate playmaker and game-manager? Totti wasn't a game manager, nor was Zidane.
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
7,984
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Play makers elevate performances of people around them. Messi doesn’t. The players I mentioned on the post does. And if you believe Messi can match Iniestas play making then I don’t know what to tell you. Messi can match his passing and chances creation sure. But not dictating play .

Advanced play makers other than Requelme you have people like Totti. I’ll be happy to get the names of a couple of players that play better with Messi more than anywhere else.
Luis Suarez, Neymar, Iniesta, Dani Alves, Jordi Alba, Pedro, Paulinho. You can't be serious if you believe Messi doesn't make players around him better. The guy tops every chance creation stat since years. Assists, pre-assists, chances created, forward passes, xGBU, key passes, dribbles and so forth. That's such an absurd narrative that I don't know what to say. I mean, Messi scores his goals while not even occupying typical striker habitats so he can play alongside traditional strikers without their goal outputs taking a hit.
 

Hoof the ball

Full Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
Messages
12,187
Location
San Antonio, Texas.
Curious stat.

Messi had 16 MOTM performances in 20/21 season. Next nearest was Lewandowski at 8.
Speaking of the number 16. This is also the number of goals he has scored outside the 18 yard box in 2021. His highest in his career.
 

Lord SInister

Full Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
2,967
Location
where grasses are green and girls are pretty
Curious stat.

Messi had 16 MOTM performances in 20/21 season. Next nearest was Lewandowski at 8.
Speaking of the number 16. This is also the number of goals he has scored outside the 18 yard box in 2021. His highest in his career.
fecking hell 16 goals from outside the box in a year. He seriously makes difficult things so fcuking simple, that when he does it, people are like it is normal :lol:
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
Zidane managed many games in his playing days.
In his later years but the vast majority of his career wasn't as a game manager and no one would suggest that he wasn't a playmaker.
 

Hoof the ball

Full Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
Messages
12,187
Location
San Antonio, Texas.
Luis Suarez, Neymar, Iniesta, Dani Alves, Jordi Alba, Pedro, Paulinho. You can't be serious if you believe Messi doesn't make players around him better. The guy tops every chance creation stat since years. Assists, pre-assists, chances created, forward passes, xGBU, key passes, dribbles and so forth. That's such an absurd narrative that I don't know what to say. I mean, Messi scores his goals while not even occupying typical striker habitats so he can play alongside traditional strikers without their goal outputs taking a hit.
Man, I've been saying this for ages. I think a lot of people don't quite grasp how much more difficult it is to maintain your goalscoring rate whilst increasingly playing deeper and deeper in the field. It's just assumed that Messi should match Lewandowski or Ronaldo, goal-for-goal, whilst simulataneously playing near the halfway line and taking on all of the creative burdens and responsiblities that those two don't need to.
 

Lebo

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2016
Messages
379
Luis Suarez, Neymar, Iniesta, Dani Alves, Jordi Alba, Pedro, Paulinho. You can't be serious if you believe Messi doesn't make players around him better. The guy tops every chance creation stat since years. Assists, pre-assists, chances created, forward passes, xGBU, key passes, dribbles and so forth. That's such an absurd narrative that I don't know what to say. I mean, Messi scores his goals while not even occupying typical striker habitats so he can play alongside traditional strikers without their goal outputs taking a hit.
By that logic Ronaldo is the best playmaker the champions league has ever seen? Or at least up there? I’m sure even Ronaldo doesn’t think that .
Oh that also makes Modern fullbacks playmakers because a lot of team attacks starts with them. Chance creation and play making aren’t the same thing.
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
7,984
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
I can't even tell if people are just making these things up now.
You can google it, very good metric to measure offensive impact outside of goals :)

Man, I've been saying this for ages. I think a lot of people don't quite grasp how much more difficult it is to maintain your goalscoring rate whilst increasingly playing deeper and deeper in the field. It's just assumed that Messi should match Lewandowski or Ronaldo, goal-for-goal, whilst simulataneously playing near the halfway line and taking on all of the creative burdens and responsiblities that those two don't need to.
Yes. It's almost as if context matters, right? ;)
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
7,984
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
By that logic Ronaldo is the best playmaker the champions league has ever seen? Or at least up there? I’m sure even Ronaldo doesn’t think that .
I can't follow that train of thought. Why should he be?
 

Sviken

New Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2021
Messages
2,450
Man, I've been saying this for ages. I think a lot of people don't quite grasp how much more difficult it is to maintain your goalscoring rate whilst increasingly playing deeper and deeper in the field. It's just assumed that Messi should match Lewandowski or Ronaldo, goal-for-goal, whilst simulataneously playing near the halfway line and taking on all of the creative burdens and responsiblities that those two don't need to.
That's not entirely true. Having a free CAM role as Messi does is incredibly advantegous to your goalscoring and playmaking opportunities. Messi wouldn't have even remotely the same output playing on the wing.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
7,052
Like I've said in this thread once Psg clicks you'd see Messi back in form. He's not washed. Mbappe is crazy good though. Looks destined for number 1.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
10,994
By that logic Ronaldo is the best playmaker the champions league has ever seen? Or at least up there? I’m sure even Ronaldo doesn’t think that .
Oh that also makes Modern fullbacks playmakers because a lot of team attacks starts with them. Chance creation and play making aren’t the same thing.
Try and look up the definition of a playmaker.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
10,994
That's not entirely true. Having a free CAM role as Messi does is incredibly advantegous to your goalscoring and playmaking opportunities. Messi wouldn't have even remotely the same output playing on the wing.
He's spent quite a lot of his career on the RW.
 

Sviken

New Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2021
Messages
2,450
He's spent quite a lot of his career on the RW.
Eh, not really. From what I remember only under Rijkaard which was what? 2 years? He only became profilic when Guardiola switched his position and moved him in the middle.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
10,994
Eh, not really. From what I remember only under Rijkaard which was what? 2 years? He only became profilic when Guardiola switched his position and moved him in the middle.
I dunno what the stats are but his position isnt fixed. I dunno if you remember that Pelé said Messi only has one trick which is to cut inside from the RW and score.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
10,994
Pelé is a poet - when he keeps his mouth shut
I dunno if there are any opta stats on how many games Messi started on the wing or something. During MSN he was on right again.
 

giorno

boob novice
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
26,144
Supports
Real Madrid
I dunno if there are any opta stats on how many games Messi started on the wing or something. During MSN he was shifted wide again sometimes.
Eh, yeah in 2015 he played mostly through the right half space, sometimes moving even wider to the wing. The compromise needed to make it work
 

NasirTimothy

New Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
2,388
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
Luis Suarez, Neymar, Iniesta, Dani Alves, Jordi Alba, Pedro, Paulinho. You can't be serious if you believe Messi doesn't make players around him better. The guy tops every chance creation stat since years. Assists, pre-assists, chances created, forward passes, xGBU, key passes, dribbles and so forth. That's such an absurd narrative that I don't know what to say. I mean, Messi scores his goals while not even occupying typical striker habitats so he can play alongside traditional strikers without their goal outputs taking a hit.

It’s a good point. I mean Suarez won the European golden shoe playing with Messi. If you’re a striker and you play in a team with Lewa or Ronaldo, you’d better forget about trying to win the golden boot. It ain’t happening.
 

Lord SInister

Full Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
2,967
Location
where grasses are green and girls are pretty
By that logic Ronaldo is the best playmaker the champions league has ever seen? Or at least up there? I’m sure even Ronaldo doesn’t think that .
Oh that also makes Modern fullbacks playmakers because a lot of team attacks starts with them. Chance creation and play making aren’t the same thing.
Assists or key passes=/=playmaker.

Yes modern fullbacks like TAA, Cancelo and earlier the likes of Baines or Dani Alves in Sevilla are/were playmakers. Because the whole creativity of those teams were in a way dependant on them.
 

NasirTimothy

New Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
2,388
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
Man, I've been saying this for ages. I think a lot of people don't quite grasp how much more difficult it is to maintain your goalscoring rate whilst increasingly playing deeper and deeper in the field. It's just assumed that Messi should match Lewandowski or Ronaldo, goal-for-goal, whilst simulataneously playing near the halfway line and taking on all of the creative burdens and responsiblities that those two don't need to.
It’s one of the things that makes him remarkable. However Pele had a similar quality, he was not an out and out striker at all, which many people seem to think he was. And as he got older he got further and further away from the goal.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
10,994
Eh, yeah in 2015 he played mostly through the right half space, sometimes moving even wider to the wing. The compromise needed to make it work
Still scored and assisted galore.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
10,994
Assists or key passes=/=playmaker.

Yes modern fullbacks like TAA, Cancelo and earlier the likes of Baines or Dani Alves in Sevilla are/were playmakers. Because the whole creativity of those teams were in a way dependant on them.
I think its a fraught term. A bit like was Giggs the winger a playmaker? High on close control/dribbling, chance creation and assists. Same with Nani.