Solskjaer's legacy and his future

Smores

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You'd think Ole personally bought the players the way some go on.

Manager with a lot of money to spend buys some expensive sought after players isn't the amazing achievement some seem to think it is.

As for he did well until this season, it's incredible that some still can't recognise their were issues leading up to this.
 

Max_United

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LvG's transfers:
PlayerTransfer fee paid (£m)Age at purchaseTransfer fee received (£m)Age at sale
Ángel Di María
67.5​
26​
Luke Shaw
33.75​
19​
Ander Herrera
32.4​
25​
Marcos Rojo
18​
24​
Daley Blind
15.75​
24​
Vanja Milinković-Savić
1.58​
17​
Radamel Falcao
0​
28​
Danny Welbeck
18​
23​
Shinji Kagawa
7.2​
25​
Alexander Büttner
4.95​
25​
Wilfried Zaha
3.42​
21​
Bebé
2.7​
24​
Patrice Evra
1.71​
33​
Anthony Martial
54.00​
19​
Morgan Schneiderlin
31.50​
25​
Memphis Depay
30.60​
21​
Matteo Darmian
16.20​
25​
Bastian Schweinsteiger
8.10​
31​
Ángel Di María
56.7​
27​
Chicharito
10.8​
27​
Jonny Evans
7.47​
27​
Robin van Persie
5.85​
32​
Nani
5.4​
30​
Rafael
2.88​
25​
Ángelo Henríquez
1.5​
21​

Jose's signings:
PlayerTransfer fee paid (£m)Age at purchaseTransfer fee received (£m)Age at sale
Paul Pogba
94.50​
23​
Henrikh Mkhitaryan
37.80​
27​
Eric Bailly
34.20​
22​
Zlatan Ibrahimovic
0.00​
34​
Morgan Schneiderlin
20.7​
26​
Memphis Depay
14.4​
22​
Paddy McNair
4.73​
21​
Tyler Blackett
1.62​
22​
Will Keane
1.08​
23​
Romelu Lukaku
76.23​
24​
Nemanja Matic
40.23​
29​
Victor Lindelöf
31.50​
23​
Alexis Sánchez
30.60​
30​
Henrikh Mkhitaryan
30.6​
28​
Adnan Januzaj
7.65​
22​
Fred
53.10​
25​
Diogo Dalot
19.80​
19​
Lee Grant
1.53​
35​
Daley Blind
14.4​
28​
Sam Johnstone
6.62​
22​
Marouane Fellaini
6.48​
30​

Ole's signings:
PlayerTransfer fee paid (£m)Age at purchaseTransfer fee received (£m)Age at sale
Harry Maguire
78.30​
26​
Bruno Fernandes
56.70​
24​
Aaron Wan-Bissaka
49.50​
21​
Daniel James
16.02​
21​
Romelu Lukaku
66.6​
26​
Matteo Darmian
2.23​
29​
Ashley Young
1.53​
34​
Donny van de Beek
35.10​
23​
Amad Diallo
19.17​
18​
Alex Telles
13.50​
27​
Facundo Pellistri
7.65​
18​
Edinson Cavani
0.00​
33​
Chris Smalling
13.5​
30​
Timothy Fosu-Mensah
1.53​
22​
Jadon Sancho
76.50​
21​
Raphaël Varane
36.00​
28​
Cristiano Ronaldo
13.50​
36​
Daniel James
26.19​
23​

Averages:
ManagerNet spend per season (£m)Average age of outgoingsAverage age of incomingsPlayers 21 or underAmount spent on players 21 or under (£m)
LvG90.426.223.74119.9
Mourniho103.7426.524.4119.8
Ole96.7927.324.75168.8

Ole's average net spend was higher than LvG's (as you'd expect after a few years of market prices increasing), but lower than Jose's. Overall, there wasn't much between the three of them in terms of net spend, so it's worth digging a bit deeper at the age/mentality profile of exactly who was bought.

Solksjaer's average age of incomings was obviously pushed up by the purchases of Ronaldo and Cavani. But I guess you could say the same for Jose bringing in Zlatan. The difference, however, is if you look at each of their transfers of players under 21. That's clearly what the focus was with Solksjaer. But whereas Ole only bought Ronaldo and Cavani as stop gaps for his youth players, Jose was all about putting all his eggs into a single win-right-now basket. Let's not forget, if Mourinho had had his way, we'd have also got a 30 year old Peresic for £50m.

Players like Sancho, Pellestri and Amad are top class prospects who Solksjaer was never going to have the opportunity to get the best out of. That's precisely what it means to leave a legacy. Ole put the club's interests before his own.

Then try comparing Ole to LvG. LvG bought the biggest lot of weak-willed mercaneries you've ever seen. That culture change from SAF set us back years. One of the hallmarks of a good transfer strategy is assessing your targets' mentalities. Louis obviously never got the message. United turned into Disneyland under his management.

That's not to say Ole's cultural reset hasn't been perfect since. Transfers are always going to be gambles. But at least he did buy players like Bruno, Varane, Ronaldo and Sancho who aren't shy about letting their teammates know when they've fecked something up. None of them are quite Roy Keane, but that's the ideal we were aiming for. If it's about leaving a legacy, building a squad like that is exactly what will teach our youngsters what it means to be a top player at a top club.
Good analysis, but (1) the manager is clearly not the single voice behind transfers after Fergia and (2) I feel you are cherry picking evidence to benefit Ole a bit:

1. You bring Perisic to argue against Jose, but we chased a 31 year old Trippier whilst having AWB (new signing), Dalot and Laird in his position under Ole. I do not see how it is better than chaing Perisic especially given AWB was signed under Ole. Jose would be 100% criticized a lot if it were the case under him.

2. You are ignoring the fact that under LvG we signed Shaw and Martial at 19 who were first team/squad players after that. If Ole gets credit for his under-21 signings, why not LvG?

3. Pellistri and Amad have a lot to prove and it is not clear they would be at least squad players with us. Pellistri never played for first team yet, Amad player like 3 games in Italy before he signed made a couple of appearances and was behind the likes of Mata in pecking order under Ole. Amad is similar to what Dalot was at his age.

4. So for first team young players signed under Ole we are left with AWB is a huge question mark at the moment and Sancho (there was James who left, but then you have Depay under LvG). Not much really. I would not name it as some huge shift in focus. For the first team we still signed mostly prime age or past-prime players under Ole. Maybe an improvement over Jose's transfers in terms of youth.

5. "aren't shy about letting their teammates know when they've fecked something up" - do you think Ibra was shy about that? And what is the evidence for this for Sancho and Varane?Plus, with Bruno it ended up being outright disruptive on the pitch. Anyway, I do not think that you can talk about "cultural reset" if you are not dropping underperformnace, high fiving Maguire after red card etc etc.

I agree that in transfers under Ole we avoided some of the mistakes of the past. I agree that transfers have been on paper somewhat better. But again - we have a transfer committee, not the manager deciding singlehandedly and even given that our transfer record is questionable.

But I maintain that all the "cultural reset" and "youth focus" is 95% perception and 5% reality at best. And when it comes to stuff that was definitely on the responsibility of manager, Ole's record is quite poor. No youngster was promoted to be a squad player at least bar Greenwood. Many players were untouchable no matter now bad they performed. Average age of the squad is league average. Lots of players rushed back and overplayed (latest news is that Cavani confirmed that he was rushed against Spurs and aggravated his injury). Many disappointed squad players with broken promises. Wrong capitan choice, and the good potential captain (Bruno) not man-managed correctly but pandered to and as a result spend significant parts of each game arguing with referees and complaining....I could go on but I really should stop :)
 

Jippy

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I find the defend ole at all cost including pissing on Ralf actual management distasteful.

The amount of mind gymnastic ole butt hurt brigade is still up in force bigging up this clueless clown who pretend he's a manager for 3 years, serving us hot turd yet you lot call it donuts because it has a rainbow sprinkle on top of it.

He's not the worst manager ever imho, because he's not even a manager. He's just a mascot who does no training and plays candy crush on ipad
Can you give any examples of this?
 

Sky1981

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Good analysis, but (1) the manager is clearly not the single voice behind transfers after Fergia and (2) I feel you are cherry picking evidence to benefit Ole a bit:

1. You bring Perisic to argue against Jose, but we chased a 31 year old Trippier whilst having AWB (new signing), Dalot and Laird in his position under Ole. I do not see how it is better than chaing Perisic especially given AWB was signed under Ole. Jose would be 100% criticized a lot if it were the case under him.

2. You are ignoring the fact that under LvG we signed Shaw and Martial at 19 who were first team/squad players after that. If Ole gets credit for his under-21 signings, why not LvG?

3. Pellistri and Amad have a lot to prove and it is not clear they would be at least squad players with us. Pellistri never played for first team yet, Amad player like 3 games in Italy before he signed made a couple of appearances and was behind the likes of Mata in pecking order under Ole. Amad is similar to what Dalot was at his age.

4. So for first team young players signed under Ole we are left with AWB is a huge question mark at the moment and Sancho (there was James who left, but then you have Depay under LvG). Not much really. I would not name it as some huge shift in focus. For the first team we still signed mostly prime age or past-prime players under Ole. Maybe an improvement over Jose's transfers in terms of youth.

5. "aren't shy about letting their teammates know when they've fecked something up" - do you think Ibra was shy about that? And what is the evidence for this for Sancho and Varane?Plus, with Bruno it ended up being outright disruptive on the pitch. Anyway, I do not think that you can talk about "cultural reset" if you are not dropping underperformnace, high fiving Maguire after red card etc etc.

I agree that in transfers under Ole we avoided some of the mistakes of the past. I agree that transfers have been on paper somewhat better. But again - we have a transfer committee, not the manager deciding singlehandedly and even given that our transfer record is questionable.

But I maintain that all the "cultural reset" and "youth focus" is 95% perception and 5% reality at best. And when it comes to stuff that was definitely on the responsibility of manager, Ole's record is quite poor. No youngster was promoted to be a squad player at least bar Greenwood. Many players were untouchable no matter now bad they performed. Average age of the squad is league average. Lots of players rushed back and overplayed (latest news is that Cavani confirmed that he was rushed against Spurs and aggravated his injury). Many disappointed squad players with broken promises. Wrong capitan choice, and the good potential captain (Bruno) not man-managed correctly but pandered to and as a result spend significant parts of each game arguing with referees and complaining....I could go on but I really should stop :)
Signing players like Pogba 80m or sancho 80m shouldnt be credited to the manager. Good player, huge prices a no shit sherlock type of signing.

Nothing short of getting 110% out of that kind of purchase is justifiable as credit for the manager.
 

Jippy

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A few post down from there i have given 2
I couldn't see anyone 'pissing' on Ralf, just some defending some of Ole's signings. Some people really need to move on. I haven't seen anyone really not getting behind Ralf, a couple of sceptics sure, which is fair enough, but no-one full-on hating on him.

Signing players like Pogba 80m or sancho 80m shouldnt be credited to the manager. Good player, huge prices a no shit sherlock type of signing.

Nothing short of getting 110% out of that kind of purchase is justifiable as credit for the manager.
Yes and no. Less credit for sure, but you can spunk £90m on Pogba and not get the best out of him, as we've seen with two managers or three at a push if you include SAF, although that would be harsh.
 

Sky1981

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I couldn't see anyone 'pissing' on Ralf, just some defending some of Ole's signings. Some people really need to move on. I haven't seen anyone really not getting behind Ralf, a couple of sceptics sure, which is fair enough, but no-one full-on hating on him.


Yes and no. Less credit for sure, but you can spunk £90m on Pogba and not get the best out of him, as we've seen with two managers or three at a push if you include SAF, although that would be harsh.
Faie enough but the bar should be higher than just buying pogba or sancho.
 

flameinthesun

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On the point of Solskjaer signing more youngsters, I could be wrong but United now have a separate youth budget for youth purchases which whilst Ole probably had a say in would have been managed by Nicky Butt and his team at the time. So pellestri, jurado, kimbwala, fernandez etc I think would have been identified and signed mainly by nicky butt. Amad im a little unsure of as his fee was quite large. So I wouldn't necessarily give Ole credit on this as it seems to be a structural change that united made that coincided with nicky butts position getting a larger transfer budget etc.

This is also a point Rio Ferdinand was making on his podcast that a lot of these background changes that people attribute to Ole (youth structure change, training ground change etc) are not changes Ole made, it was the club that made these changes.
 

Max_United

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I couldn't see anyone 'pissing' on Ralf, just some defending some of Ole's signings. Some people really need to move on. I haven't seen anyone really not getting behind Ralf, a couple of sceptics sure, which is fair enough, but no-one full-on hating on him.


Yes and no. Less credit for sure, but you can spunk £90m on Pogba and not get the best out of him, as we've seen with two managers or three at a push if you include SAF, although that would be harsh.
Correct, but Ole's record or getting the best of/improving new signings is quite poor, that is the thing. Previous two managers did no better, but Ole did not do well at all either. Maguire and AwB are 130m combined question marks still, VdB and Sancho he did not know how to use. Even Bruno stopped improving and his on pitch behavior is quite shameful, but Ole was unfortunately too soft to put a stop on it.
 

Jippy

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Correct, but Ole's record or getting the best of/improving new signings is quite poor, that is the thing. Previous two managers did no better, but Ole did not do well at all either. Maguire and AwB are 130m combined question marks still, VdB and Sancho he did not know how to use. Even Bruno stopped improving and his on pitch behavior is quite shameful, but Ole was unfortunately too soft to put a stop on it.
Was going to reply but realised this is a debate I have close to zero interest in and don't want to get involved in as I need to go out for dinner:lol:
 

Lecland07

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What I do not understand about some people is that they say 'Solskjaer's signings were great' and then say 'Solskjaer wasn't all that bad'.

But that makes no sense to me. How can both of those possibly be true if he left us in a worse position in the league than when Mourinho was sacked?

Solskjaer was a very poor manager. He did luck out with the league being at the weakest point in a very long time. The top six died out. Chelsea experienced a huge dip. Tottenham were on the decline. Arsenal declined after sacking Emery. Liverpool experienced a torrid time with injuries last season.

The proof is in the pudding. As soon as the league regains strength and competitiveness (this season), Solskjaer gets shown up for the poor manager that he always has been. He was just very lucky with timing.
 

GlasgowCeltic

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Don't understand how Ole can have been great in the transfer market and correct for never giving the likes of Donny Telles Amad and increasingly Sancho chances to play... they're his signings
 

Di Maria's angel

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Well, his legacy is what he left behind. A squad low on confidence, absolutely clueless in several aspects of the sport and full of failure. That's what he left behind. I know many on here want to find anything to credit him for but three years where we won nothing, played some of the worst football in the league and ended up with Ole isolating majority of the squad doesn't really paint a legacy at all. His literal job was to bring success back to the club and he failed. Couldn't even bring about a philosophy or style of football. In most aspects of a managerial job, Ole failed and at any other club, he'd have been given the boot after the Burnley defeat in 2019.

He also convinced many people Ronaldo was at fault. Holy feck.
 

VidaRed

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solskjaer will always be a hero. his managerial time at us isnt has bad as you thing. he got us playing football after jose! he gave kids a chance! majority of his signings were ok. he got the feel good factor back for a while. we improved oved every season. unfortunately he couldnt take us any further. I and along with many red will always love and thank him.
Which kids from the academy broke through during ole's reign ? I can't think of one.

Before you say greenwood let me inform you that it was jose that got him training with the first team and handed him his first contract.
 

Maluco

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Why is it so hard for some people to accept that he isn’t a good manager? You just had to watch the game and the randomness of performances to know that.

He might be a nice guy and he might have brought in some good players, but he isn’t a manager, and it’s laughable that he was in charge of one of the biggest clubs in the world for 3 years.

There was no progress in the pitch. It was very good footballers under a poor coach and sometimes that was enough to win.

He isn’t a manager and he doesn’t have a legacy as one. It was a waste of time after the first 5 months. We need to accept that and move on, because we need to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
 

VidaRed

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Why is it so hard for some people to accept that he isn’t a good manager? You just had to watch the game and the randomness of performances to know that.
When people buy into something lock stock and barrel they double down in there beliefs when presented with evidence that there initial belief was wrong.

This is evidenced by the qanon circus going on, despite so many predictions going down the shitter the faithful are still at it.

Basically its comes down to denying facts to save face than accept you were an idiot.

This is well documented.
 

Jack Landers

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His legacy as manager is the worst premier league manager in history of the PL and the worst Utd manager ever! He had the 3rd most expansive squad in history of world football. He had the blind support of his staff, the board, players and the fans for the majority of his time and did/won nothing. He never ever learn from his mistakes and keep repeating the same mistakes expecting different outcome dispite people spelling it out for him. Clearly in misery and out of his depth majority of the time yet still won't give way despite saying he wants the best for the club. His actions only showed that he would rather live his dream to manage the club (at the club's expanse) than see the club succeed.

However, his legacy as a player is spotless and will forever be!
 

Denis79

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solskjaer will always be a hero. his managerial time at us isnt has bad as you thing. he got us playing football after jose! he gave kids a chance! majority of his signings were ok. he got the feel good factor back for a while. we improved oved every season. unfortunately he couldnt take us any further. I and along with many red will always love and thank him.
Ole is a legend and rightfully so. My opinion of him isn't less because I know he loves the club and did his absolute best but let's be honest, as a manager he isn't up to standards. This was evident quite early and the massive inconsistency in form proves exactly that.

Ole was given a proper chance to prove himself, 3 years and over 400M £. To look like we did this season is a clear sign he wasn't a good manager.
 

anant

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I actually love how extreme some people's thinking is.

Signings were flop, he's tactically shite, he's the worst PL manager (of all time?), but yet we finished 2nd and 3rd - consecutive top 4 finishes in PL for the 1st time since SAF. Surely, people need to realize that something doesn't add up
 

R.N7

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20/21 - 18 penalties received
19/20 - 22 penalties received

Very fortunate that the early VAR era happened during his reign. This season pelanty couldn't come to his rescue anymore.
 

Teja

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I actually love how extreme some people's thinking is.

Signings were flop, he's tactically shite, he's the worst PL manager (of all time?), but yet we finished 2nd and 3rd - consecutive top 4 finishes in PL for the 1st time since SAF. Surely, people need to realize that something doesn't add up
You're only as good as your last game etc.
 

Jack Landers

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I actually love how extreme some people's thinking is.

Signings were flop, he's tactically shite, he's the worst PL manager (of all time?), but yet we finished 2nd and 3rd - consecutive top 4 finishes in PL for the 1st time since SAF. Surely, people need to realize that something doesn't add up
I think even the staunchest of Ole's fans would struggle to name another PL manager (in the entire history) that the opposition fans loved more than they loved and wanted Ole as Utd manager. The scary part was it wasn't a banter from a few rivals but rather every single opponents we faced wanted him to stay for as long as possible. That's how bad it was.
 
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Toblerone92

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No legacy. Sure he shifted some deadwood but that's hardly the basis of any kind of legacy. We had no identity under Ole despite him attempting to implement fast, counter attacking football as he just didn't have the tactics and maybe we didn't have the players?

Still a United legend, but he was never cut out to be a manager, many people aren't.
 

Forevergiggs1

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I actually love how extreme some people's thinking is.

Signings were flop, he's tactically shite, he's the worst PL manager (of all time?), but yet we finished 2nd and 3rd - consecutive top 4 finishes in PL for the 1st time since SAF. Surely, people need to realize that something doesn't add up
Of course it adds up. His name is Bruno. The week before he joined we'd just lost 2-0 at home to Burnley leaving us 6 points off of 4th spot and 14 points off 3rd. You could argue it was a genius managerial decision to sign him even though we turned him down the previous summer and finally signed him as a last hail Mary but that's for another discussion. Oles managerial expertise didn't get us top 4. Bruno did.
 

Irrational.

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Zero legacy for me. He was bailed out by some incredible luck time and again and was afforded the benefit of the doubt more than he deserved because he was an ex-United legend and a nice guy.
 

anant

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Of course it adds up. His name is Bruno. The week before he joined we'd just lost 2-0 at home to Burnley leaving us 6 points off of 4th spot and 14 points off 3rd. You could argue it was a genius managerial decision to sign him even though we turned him down the previous summer and finally signed him as a last hail Mary but that's for another discussion. Oles managerial expertise didn't get us top 4. Bruno did.
And how do you explain us having 3rd most number of points in the 2018/19 season since OGS joined?
 

Skills

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Of course it adds up. His name is Bruno. The week before he joined we'd just lost 2-0 at home to Burnley leaving us 6 points off of 4th spot and 14 points off 3rd. You could argue it was a genius managerial decision to sign him even though we turned him down the previous summer and finally signed him as a last hail Mary but that's for another discussion. Oles managerial expertise didn't get us top 4. Bruno did.
Yup. This was his record in 19/20 prior to Bruno:


It looks even worse if you tag the back end of 18/19 to it. He should've been sacked about 3x before we signed Bruno tbh
 

Skills

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And how do you explain us having 3rd most number of points in the 2018/19 season since OGS joined?
The team that finished 2nd in 17/18 managed to get the 3rd most points over a run of 20 games in the following season, after sacking a toxic manager.

Completely unprecedented achievement in football.
 

anant

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The team that finished 2nd in 17/18 managed to get the 3rd most points over a run of 20 games in the following season, after sacking a toxic manager.

Completely unprecedented achievement in football.
Yeah, and that team had 6th best underlying numbers, so..
 

Forevergiggs1

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And how do you explain us having 3rd most number of points in the 2018/19 season since OGS joined?
The reason is pretty obvious. After the toxicity Mou left, the freedom Ole gave the players his first few months showed on the pitch and it really was the case of go out and enjoy yourself lads. You can give credit to Ole but it was hardly a tactical masterclass but when we had something to play for (top 4) and Ole decided he knew what he was doing and actually had to manage the team it all turned to shit pretty quickly.

Yup. This was his record in 19/20 prior to Bruno:


It looks even worse if you tag the back end of 18/19 to it. He should've been sacked about 3x before we signed Bruno tbh
Everyone was giving credit to Rashford and Martial for their season (2019/20) and rightly so but before lockdown Martial for example was involved in goals every 157 minutes. After lockdown (Bruno) that total rose to 1 every 57 minutes with Bruno creating 2.3 chances per game. Before Brunos arrival we were scoring 1.5 goals on average. After he arrived that number shot up to 2.3. People who chose to believe it was Ole that got us top 4 and not Bruno maybe need to rethink that idea. Of course if they want to give Ole credit for actually playing Bruno then I don"t have any problem with that. Each to their own.
 

Greck

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Yeah, and that team had 6th best underlying numbers, so..
The manager got duly sacked for it. It was the 2nd best performing team over the entirety of the previous season, it's not some sterling achievement they moved to the 3rd best performing team. Just like this team we were a good squad back then being let down by crappy management.
 
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Bebestation

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Our United fans are more likely to talk about Xavi's legacy after his below average management than talk about Solskjaers one.
 

justsomebloke

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The reason is pretty obvious. After the toxicity Mou left, the freedom Ole gave the players his first few months showed on the pitch and it really was the case of go out and enjoy yourself lads. You can give credit to Ole but it was hardly a tactical masterclass but when we had something to play for (top 4) and Ole decided he knew what he was doing and actually had to manage the team it all turned to shit pretty quickly.

Everyone was giving credit to Rashford and Martial for their season (2019/20) and rightly so but before lockdown Martial for example was involved in goals every 157 minutes. After lockdown (Bruno) that total rose to 1 every 57 minutes with Bruno creating 2.3 chances per game. Before Brunos arrival we were scoring 1.5 goals on average. After he arrived that number shot up to 2.3. People who chose to believe it was Ole that got us top 4 and not Bruno maybe need to rethink that idea. Of course if they want to give Ole credit for actually playing Bruno then I don"t have any problem with that. Each to their own.
What, Ole arrives, says go and enjoy yourselves, players are happy and go out and score, then wait, what, oh no, no coaching what are we going to do, oh look there's Bruno, thank God, he's saving us, then oh no, Bruno's tired, we're finished.

Do you imagine there was no formation or tactics during Ole's caretaker period? Or that it's remotely meaningful to consider whether the explanation for our success with Bruno is either solely because of him, or solely because of other things, as if one ruled out the other?
 

Forevergiggs1

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What, Ole arrives, says go and enjoy yourselves, players are happy and go out and score, then wait, what, oh no, no coaching what are we going to do, oh look there's Bruno, thank God, he's saving us, then oh no, Bruno's tired, we're finished.

Do you imagine there was no formation or tactics during Ole's caretaker period? Or that it's remotely meaningful to consider whether the explanation for our success with Bruno is either solely because of him, or solely because of other things, as if one ruled out the other?
What makes more sense? Ole coming in with a tactical masterclass for a couple of months before it all went south and then losing all his tactical nous in the next 2 years 10 months or the players playing with a freedom they hadn't known in their United careers which was reflected on the pitch before the famed 4-2-3-1 came into play? So yes. It was a case of the players instructions being you go out and you do you.

I have yet to hear anyone in the footballing professional world, be it ex players or general pundits talk about Ole being tactically adept bar the very odd game which is pretty damning in itself after 3 years. It isn't treason to say Ole was out of his league. It's nothing personal, just cold hard facts. A good managers tactics get noticed at an early stage. A great managers tactics keeps evolving until the trophies are won on a regular basis Ole I'm afraid never even showed he was a good enough manager never mind a great one.

And yes. Bruno was 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, undisputedly, undeniably the sole reason Ole stayed in the job for as long as he did and us getting back to back top 4. The numbers before and after his arrival speak for themselves. I would never play down what Rashford and Martial did in the 19/20 season. Both were fantastic but their numbers shot up after the arrival of Bruno, our average goals per game went from 1.5 to 2.3 which is an incredible jump. Bruno was creating 2.3 chances per game so I think it's very safe to say without Bruno we definitely wouldn't have scrapped top 4 especially in Brunos first season which suggests it was nothing to do with the tactics that a lot of people seem to suggest was the only reason we did get back to back top 4. We weren't a team. We were 1 man on a mission and that man wasn't Ole.
 

justsomebloke

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What makes more sense? Ole coming in with a tactical masterclass for a couple of months before it all went south and then losing all his tactical nous in the next 2 years 10 months or the players playing with a freedom they hadn't known in their United careers which was reflected on the pitch before the famed 4-2-3-1 came into play? So yes. It was a case of the players instructions being you go out and you do you.

I have yet to hear anyone in the footballing professional world, be it ex players or general pundits talk about Ole being tactically adept bar the very odd game which is pretty damning in itself after 3 years. It isn't treason to say Ole was out of his league. It's nothing personal, just cold hard facts. A good managers tactics get noticed at an early stage. A great managers tactics keeps evolving until the trophies are won on a regular basis Ole I'm afraid never even showed he was a good enough manager never mind a great one.

And yes. Bruno was 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, undisputedly, undeniably the sole reason Ole stayed in the job for as long as he did and us getting back to back top 4. The numbers before and after his arrival speak for themselves. I would never play down what Rashford and Martial did in the 19/20 season. Both were fantastic but their numbers shot up after the arrival of Bruno, our average goals per game went from 1.5 to 2.3 which is an incredible jump. Bruno was creating 2.3 chances per game so I think it's very safe to say without Bruno we definitely wouldn't have scrapped top 4 especially in Brunos first season which suggests it was nothing to do with the tactics that a lot of people seem to suggest was the only reason we did get back to back top 4. We weren't a team. We were 1 man on a mission and that man wasn't Ole.
What fails to make any sense is the notion that you have to choose one explanation or the other, when it is bleedin' obvious that the performance of individual players and how you play as a team both matter, and affect each other mutually.
 

Forevergiggs1

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What fails to make any sense is the notion that you have to choose one explanation or the other, when it is bleedin' obvious that the performance of individual players and how you play as a team both matter, and affect each other mutually.
So what happened? How did we go from a tactical masterclass for the first couple of months to tactical ineptitude for nearly 3 more years? My point is that without Bruno we definitely wouldn't have reached consecutive top 4 especially in his first half season with us. He was the catalyst and not Ole as many seem to suggest so it's not mutually exclusive. It's a case of inspite of, not because of.
 

justsomebloke

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So what happened? How did we go from a tactical masterclass for the first couple of months to tactical ineptitude for nearly 3 more years? My point is that without Bruno we definitely wouldn't have reached consecutive top 4 especially in his first half season with us. He was the catalyst and not Ole as many seem to suggest so it's not mutually exclusive. It's a case of inspite of, not because of.
The bolded sentence (and the rest of the post too) heavily suggests you don't actually understand the point about different factors not being mutually exclusive, since your response to it is to keep repeating the same fallacy. If you're assuming that improvement under Bruno was despite all other factors, that obviously does not mean that you're treating them as not mutually exclusive - in fact, it further increases the monomaniac reliance you place on Bruno's individual performance as the sole explanation.

Is this really so hard to understand? We obviously did not go from a tactical masterclass in the first couple of months to complete tactical ineptitude for nearly 3 more years. We got good results during the caretaker period for a number of reasons, one of whom were a shift in formation, tactics and approach. Surely you don't seriously entertain the notion that the only thing that changed was that we got rid of Mourinhos system and negativity, and replaced it with Ole encouraging the players to go out and enjoy themselves and then results just....happened?

Similarly, the ensuing period (which includes both very good and very bad stretches) are obviously not simply a product of Bruno. For example, not even he is so good that his impact is irrespective of how he is used and what the rest of the team does around him. A big part of the reason why he had such an impact was how he was utilised and how the style was structured in a way that allowed him to maximise that. Also, that would not have mattered if we had not also solved other aspects of the game reasonably successfully. You don't go on a 28-game unbeaten streak simply and solely because you have good no 10. As ought to be obvious.
 

Forevergiggs1

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The bolded sentence (and the rest of the post too) heavily suggests you don't actually understand the point about different factors not being mutually exclusive, since your response to it is to keep repeating the same fallacy. If you're assuming that improvement under Bruno was despite all other factors, that obviously does not mean that you're treating them as not mutually exclusive - in fact, it further increases the monomaniac reliance you place on Bruno's individual performance as the sole explanation.

Is this really so hard to understand? We obviously did not go from a tactical masterclass in the first couple of months to complete tactical ineptitude for nearly 3 more years. We got good results during the caretaker period for a number of reasons, one of whom were a shift in formation, tactics and approach. Surely you don't seriously entertain the notion that the only thing that changed was that we got rid of Mourinhos system and negativity, and replaced it with Ole encouraging the players to go out and enjoy themselves and then results just....happened?

Similarly, the ensuing period (which includes both very good and very bad stretches) are obviously not simply a product of Bruno. For example, not even he is so good that his impact is irrespective of how he is used and what the rest of the team does around him. A big part of the reason why he had such an impact was how he was utilised and how the style was structured in a way that allowed him to maximise that. Also, that would not have mattered if we had not also solved other aspects of the game reasonably successfully. You don't go on a 28-game unbeaten streak simply and solely because you have good no 10. As ought to be obvious.
I hardly think I have a pathological obsession with Bruno. I'm just stating the obvious that without him we wouldn't of gotten consecutive top 4 finishes which stems from peoples arguments stating Ole has to be a good manager to achieve what he did in the league in terms of position. I disagree with the, "what Ole did' statements and I'm more in the, "what Bruno did" ones.

Of course how a player is utilised affects how a team plays but normally we talk about these sort of interactions in well drilled, organised sides. When a team was as disjointed as ours for as long as he's been here then you have to look beyond the managers nous and really get to the grass routes of what made us tick and if by not playing Bruno as CB was the cause then I'll happily give Ole credit.

Oles tactics (?) were as basic as they come. Sit back and hit teams on the break in the vast majority of his time with us. There was nothing to suggest he could get close to the style top teams play on a consistent basis let alone challenge them which became more apparent the longer he was with us. There's no shame in not being as good as Pep or Klopp because there's very few managers out there that are but the gulf between them was so vast it more than suggests that Ole was nowhere near tactically astute enough to be our manager regardless of what consecutive top 4 finishes means to people.