According to The Athletic, we gave the ball away more times (167) than we've done in any other game this season. So obviously your assertion on that point is correct.
The general attitude of our players
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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I agree with you. Fred and Mctominay need 2 touches to make a pass we need incisive passers in cm. Also, when they win the ball they seem to dwell on the ball or give it away.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then its usually a friggin duck but in this case how is it possible? These are pro international players. You telling me they dont give a sht? They must do. Even if they hate the coach and the club surely they have self pride and ego. If you ever get to a stage where you wont even try then whats the point?
Also the not good enough line is bull. Yeah they are not as good as City and Liverpool etc but its friggin Newcastle and Norwich! The two bottom teams. Our team should destroy them. Fact. No arguments.
Also the tactics is wrong and the players dont seem to fit but again that doesnt answer why the keep giving the all away. Why they look like they are not up for a fight. Why they cant get the basics right.
Its either got to do with transition. Both physically and mentally and getting used to new roles and the balance of the team is not right. Plus some players just havnt found form since summer (Maguire, Bruno etc). Its probably a multitude of issues that arnt easy to fix. Everyone says drop Rashford, drop McFred, drop Maguire. But its not that easy. First there will be the disharmony in the dressing room and secondly the back up players arnt guaranteed to work. Plus how many games do you give them. Lets say we dropped Rashford, Maguire, Bruno and one of Fred/McTominay. Then what. Do we do it for one game or do we give them 10 games to gel and get used to it. What happens if it doesnt work. Start again?
Im hoping Rangnick just needs a tweak or two to get it right. A new midfielder in Jan and a tweak in the attack for example and then it all clicks into place. Like Bissouma in and DVB for Bruno for example and then it all clicks into place. Otherwise it will be a long 2/3 years of a rebuild...AGAIN!
Also the not good enough line is bull. Yeah they are not as good as City and Liverpool etc but its friggin Newcastle and Norwich! The two bottom teams. Our team should destroy them. Fact. No arguments.
Also the tactics is wrong and the players dont seem to fit but again that doesnt answer why the keep giving the all away. Why they look like they are not up for a fight. Why they cant get the basics right.
Its either got to do with transition. Both physically and mentally and getting used to new roles and the balance of the team is not right. Plus some players just havnt found form since summer (Maguire, Bruno etc). Its probably a multitude of issues that arnt easy to fix. Everyone says drop Rashford, drop McFred, drop Maguire. But its not that easy. First there will be the disharmony in the dressing room and secondly the back up players arnt guaranteed to work. Plus how many games do you give them. Lets say we dropped Rashford, Maguire, Bruno and one of Fred/McTominay. Then what. Do we do it for one game or do we give them 10 games to gel and get used to it. What happens if it doesnt work. Start again?
Im hoping Rangnick just needs a tweak or two to get it right. A new midfielder in Jan and a tweak in the attack for example and then it all clicks into place. Like Bissouma in and DVB for Bruno for example and then it all clicks into place. Otherwise it will be a long 2/3 years of a rebuild...AGAIN!
Oh, come off it. We were far too good for far too long under OGS for any talk of "extreme incompetence" even being worth discussing. What is the point of such ridiculous hyperbole.
Honestly, fans just need to take a breath here. The new manager has come in with a squad really low on confidence and little time to fix those issues before the first games. Then most of the squad have been stuck at home since our last game.
It’s not pretty and we are a long way off but frustration and whingeing is symbolic of a struggling team. Fergie teams used to do the same when we were struggling but they find an extra gear when we are winning. Just look at Liverpool against Spurs where half their side were at the ref and Klopp was calling the ref biased after the game.
Ultimately I think switching from Ole to Rangnick, the style change and the formation change is maybe too much at the same time as a festive fixture list and COVID issues. Not to mention the other coaches have left and new ones have barely got started.
It’s not pretty and we are a long way off but frustration and whingeing is symbolic of a struggling team. Fergie teams used to do the same when we were struggling but they find an extra gear when we are winning. Just look at Liverpool against Spurs where half their side were at the ref and Klopp was calling the ref biased after the game.
Ultimately I think switching from Ole to Rangnick, the style change and the formation change is maybe too much at the same time as a festive fixture list and COVID issues. Not to mention the other coaches have left and new ones have barely got started.
Maybe it's just a case of more time for Rangnick's system to take hold. But I have to admit I struggle to see it that way currently.
We've had maybe two games this whole season where I've thought afterwards that we played well and looked good - Leeds and Tottenham. And even they were less impressive than the scoreline suggests. How is that possible after a season where we were really a good to very good team? Anyone could name 20 games or more from the preceding season and a half where we played at least as good as we've done in any game this season, under 3 different managers.
In the 3 PL games under Rangnick, we were okay to good in the first one, and then regressed in each of the two following ones. Rangnick, in his admirably forthright post game comments, has sounded baffled more than anything else. First pleasantly surprised at the level of effort and energy against Palace, and at the state of physical conditioning. Then surprised at how that was no longer the case against Norwich. I'm not getting the sense that things are being worked on and progressing but there's still some stuff to iron out.
I'm increasingly wondering about the state of the players group, their cohesion, the spirit in the squad.
OGS had plainly run out of solutions and had to go, but it seems to me pretty clear already he wasn't the beginning and end of our problems.
We've had maybe two games this whole season where I've thought afterwards that we played well and looked good - Leeds and Tottenham. And even they were less impressive than the scoreline suggests. How is that possible after a season where we were really a good to very good team? Anyone could name 20 games or more from the preceding season and a half where we played at least as good as we've done in any game this season, under 3 different managers.
In the 3 PL games under Rangnick, we were okay to good in the first one, and then regressed in each of the two following ones. Rangnick, in his admirably forthright post game comments, has sounded baffled more than anything else. First pleasantly surprised at the level of effort and energy against Palace, and at the state of physical conditioning. Then surprised at how that was no longer the case against Norwich. I'm not getting the sense that things are being worked on and progressing but there's still some stuff to iron out.
I'm increasingly wondering about the state of the players group, their cohesion, the spirit in the squad.
OGS had plainly run out of solutions and had to go, but it seems to me pretty clear already he wasn't the beginning and end of our problems.
Too good in what way? Did we win anything? Did we challenge for the League, the Champions League?
No, we were just a much, much, much better team than you'd get from "extreme incompetence".
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It has been said a million times before: We played better, when there were no crowds in the stands. As soon as an opposition crowd gets going, our players sh*t themselves and forget how to play. They seem to have no confidence and therefor try to play it mega safe and try to avoid making mistakes - which leads to horrible mistakes.
Well exactly. We’re a million miles off players of that calibre sadly. Someone like a Jordan Henderson would be a modern day equivalent.
I can’t help but feel somewhat disappointed with Maguire given the outlay.
On the other hand, he was on the all-tournament team at the Euros. He doesn't lack the quality, although he's had a really bad season. There's reason to hope he'll revert to his top level, and justify the outlay.
So are you saying that Ole was in some way not also part of the problem.
No he was an issue too believe me I was no fan of ole but for his sake I'm glad he got out.
The attitude is stinking. I think Neville was saying this last night, but the whinging from them is intolerable. I can't stand it. There was a point yesterday when Newcastle scored that second goal which was disallowed for offside, where Bruno was throwing his hands in the air at the referee whinging about something (again) and Newcastle just basically played around him. Obviously, Rashford let the man go as well, but the constant complaining from some of them has to stop.
It's not a particularly endearing attitude to have.
It's not a particularly endearing attitude to have.
Yup, it was here before Ole, I think it began under Mourinho. For all of Lvgs boring football, he ruled with discipline. He didn’t take shit.
The current irritation being lobbied at Ole is more so because we were told by fans and ex players to stick by the process because Ole was resetting the culture and putting values back into our squad.
Our players are as cnuty as they’ve ever been.
But yep I’m 100% on board with burying the “United way” into the past. No more ex players, no more ‘United mentality players’. No more people who ‘get the club. Bring in people qualified to do the job. Simple.
The worst aspect of this team at the moment. They almost treat the ball with disdain. It's almost a dereliction of duty how careless they are in possession. And the usual excuse that some people give about certain players trying crazy passes so you can forgive them a little, is nonsense because the type of balls we're giving away are oftentimes simple ones. It's not as if we're always trying to thread the ball through the eye of a needle here; it's basic shit most of it.
Yeah, this has never been about one manager or coach. This is a failure on many levels. Both player recruitment and manager recruitment have been poor (generally speaking) for years and years. We've been under coached for years on the field, and we've had piss poor management off the field, too.
Exactly this, they are held to no level of accountability, and will pick up their obscene wages each week with no questions asked.
I'm starting to despise the lot of them, bar Cavani and DDG. I'd like to launch the world's biggest rocket under the likes of Rashy and Maguire they are absolutely infuriating me. I'd strip Maguire of the captaincy.
Sick of the lot of them, its a shame we can't deploy SAF no one is bigger than the club mantra as we'd be left with about 2 players.
My hatred for them is not helped by the pathetic social media "apologies". If you cared that much you'd refund the fans out of your massive wages or do extra training, so just feck off.
A lot of them lack any form of football intelligence as well, which adds to my ire
Ole's lack of discipline and coaching doesn't help, but they're with a new manager now, fecking pull your heads out your arses. Very few of these love the club despite their fake claims they do. Nor do they care about the fans, another false claims often included in their fake apologies
You then have Liverpool and City players who work their backsides off every game. Even Newcastle last night were hard working. We strolled around.
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Didn't most of them also piss off down the tunnel at the end of the game without going over to the fans? I know some may not care about shit like that but it just rubs me the wrong way. Like everything, it's all amplified when you're playing absolute shite and little things like that look way worse than they may actually be, but this action just typifies this group of players at the moment.
well said
Ok. Understood.
Great post. Echoes my feelings, although I don't actually despise them. But their attitude disgusts me most of the time.
Bunch of wasters.
because many said that a real coach would make this team play wonderfully well, and now that we appear to be worse they must scramble for narratives that explain it, pinning it on Ole 'not coaching' the team for 3 years (which is impossible) or on english players being championship level talents
Not defending the players but imagine if Pep was in charge of this lot. Do you seriously believe they would carry on serving up the same shit?
I think most players have good attitude. Just that they have not reached Bruno's level yet.
Don't usually agree with threads like this but it was so evident last night it's impossible to put up a defence.
Rashford in particular. I don't know what's happened to him. In the past even when in poor form he'd be one of the hardest working players in the team. I'd look at him and Pogba as polar opposites in terms of attitude. Now if go as far as to say Rashford has the worst attitude of any player in the league who I watch regularly (and who's team don't just drop them). Not only that but his performance level is so bad that if anything he should get less leeway than other players in terms of work rate and attitude. He should be working like a maniac to compensate for the fact he currently has the footballing ability of a drunk one legged donkey, not waving his arms around and strolling about as if he's Messi and being forced to play for Macclesfield Town against his will.
Maguire it's just all too obvious that he did precisely 0 fitness training during the time the training ground was shut. He's meant to be the captain and he's lumbering about in slow motion like a 70 year old.
I can give Fernandes a bit of leeway since he at least involved himself into the game and tries to get things going, but the constant victim mentality whining at the ref. Just cut it the feck out.
Another issue is that our players seem to be amazingly thick. Telles trying to take on 3 players and Zidane turn out of trouble 5 yards from his own box when he had 4 passing options. Maguire constantly walking to where he's going to pass the ball before passing it there. The constant being taken by surprise at opposition players being good at things that it's entirely expected they'd be good at.
Rashford in particular. I don't know what's happened to him. In the past even when in poor form he'd be one of the hardest working players in the team. I'd look at him and Pogba as polar opposites in terms of attitude. Now if go as far as to say Rashford has the worst attitude of any player in the league who I watch regularly (and who's team don't just drop them). Not only that but his performance level is so bad that if anything he should get less leeway than other players in terms of work rate and attitude. He should be working like a maniac to compensate for the fact he currently has the footballing ability of a drunk one legged donkey, not waving his arms around and strolling about as if he's Messi and being forced to play for Macclesfield Town against his will.
Maguire it's just all too obvious that he did precisely 0 fitness training during the time the training ground was shut. He's meant to be the captain and he's lumbering about in slow motion like a 70 year old.
I can give Fernandes a bit of leeway since he at least involved himself into the game and tries to get things going, but the constant victim mentality whining at the ref. Just cut it the feck out.
Another issue is that our players seem to be amazingly thick. Telles trying to take on 3 players and Zidane turn out of trouble 5 yards from his own box when he had 4 passing options. Maguire constantly walking to where he's going to pass the ball before passing it there. The constant being taken by surprise at opposition players being good at things that it's entirely expected they'd be good at.
The problem is they'd either need to sort it out or the reason they wouldn't be serving it up is because they wouldn't be playing.
In fact from what I recall of pep when he took over at city, half of them wouldn't even be training as part of the first team group until they sorted their fitness out.
And honestly I think it's at a point with some of these where pep just wouldn't take the job in the first place.
As many as possible would be gone at the end of the season. He wouldn't want them.
But for last season and the one before you could tell there was some spirit there by the number of times they came from behind in matches.
That seems to have disappeared this season. Why?
Which players v Newcastle looked like they had a good attitude?
Ran back even if thought they might not make a difference, chased opponents down, pressed, went in for 40/60s, shouted encouragement to teammates…?
This problem had been developing for a long long time. It started by giving jobs to SAF's friends and family, then it crept in the first team (ex keeping legends way past their expiry date) and now every Tom, dick and harry seem to have an excuse not to leave. Mata is a nice guy, Jones is injury prone (as if that's some badge of honour or something), Rashford feeds the poor, Lingard is popular, Pogba won the WC and Martial sometimes turns up and delivers. It didn't help having Ole around who seem to be all about strengthening old connections and built new ones rather then actually win.
What United needs at this point is a massive clear out, one that doesn't look at anyone's face/reputation. If 7-8 players leave at one go then the rest would be scared shit as they might be next. Meanwhile those who would remain would probably stir in line as they know they might be next. Rangnick needs not to be scared showing the big guns the door and that include those who should be guiding the squad rather then making excuses/blaming the rest.
What United needs at this point is a massive clear out, one that doesn't look at anyone's face/reputation. If 7-8 players leave at one go then the rest would be scared shit as they might be next. Meanwhile those who would remain would probably stir in line as they know they might be next. Rangnick needs not to be scared showing the big guns the door and that include those who should be guiding the squad rather then making excuses/blaming the rest.
Yeah, half the team are very unlikeable this season, particularly Maguire, Bruno, Rashford, Ronaldo, Shaw and McT. If something, even small doesn’t go their way they just moan and whinge about it which starts the others off And they forget about the next phase of play seemingly thinking that’s ok.
Ive been watching United for nearly 60 years and I cannot recall a group of players like weve had the last 5/6 years, perhaps longer. Their lack of desire, carelessness, lethargy, constant lack lustre performances, the whining, moaning and griping are like nothing Ive ever seen before in a United shirt. Too many of them seem to think they have a god given right to simply step onto the pitch and come away with 3 points. I dont blame the manager for the players attitudes and lack of effort, I didnt blame Ole and I didnt blame Jose or LVG, they can only train and coach and hope it all works out, but if the players cant be bothered to try the manager hasnt got a chance. Roy Keanne prophesized Ole would go the same way as Jose, let down by the players, and he was right; how long before Rangnick goes the same way, in the same way? Most of the players who turned up at Newcastle are not fit to wear the shirt.
It's no surprise to me that we gave the ball away loads last night. All we have heard since RR came in is 'transition, transition, transition', 'no sideways/backwards passes', 'most goals are scored within 10 seconds of winning the ball' etc...
It's hardly surprising then that we gave the ball away loads attempting far riskier passes. The bit that was missing was a) decision-making i.e. what pass to make and when b) forward players making the correct runs and c) forward and midfield players pressing the turnovers with high-energy to win the ball back up the pitch
It's hardly surprising then that we gave the ball away loads attempting far riskier passes. The bit that was missing was a) decision-making i.e. what pass to make and when b) forward players making the correct runs and c) forward and midfield players pressing the turnovers with high-energy to win the ball back up the pitch
You saw with Leicester tonight how much hard work, application and attitude can serve you well
Don't need to watch Leicester to know that. Watching Ferguson's United for 25 years showed me all I ever needed to know about how important hard work and a good attitude is.
This is how I see the team
GK: DDG is a fantastic shot stopper but he provides little else. I don't see that as a criticism for two reasons. First of all this guy had been bailing out for years, secondly he's part of the furniture so all managers could and should have built a defence that works with him around.
DC: Maguire is the typical old fashioned stereotype English CB. He's big, he's tough, he's slow and he's not particularly bright. For some reason he think he's some Rio Ferdinand and will try to either go forward with the ball or give these long range passes. That's not how he should be played. The guy should be playing deep (which would compliment DDG as the guy would never leave his small box) and told that's he's not particularly bright. The only CB we've got to compliment him is Varane. The French man has talent, pace and experience. However Varane is constantly injured and gegenpressing won't help on that at all.
FBs: We've got two options here. Dalot is decent going forward but weak in defending. AWB is like a RB stuck to 80s football. He can be decent in defending but he's shit going forward. None of them is good enough to play with United. Shaw can be decent but he's hardly WC and Telles is great going forward but is not a great defender either. So in my opinion, if we're playing Telles then AWB should play. If we're playing Dalot then Shaw must play.
DM: Do we have one? The answer is no. McT is B2B and quite frankly he's not a good player either. Fred is also B2B and is slightly better then McT while Matic is more finished then Bryan Robson after a night of binge drinking night followed by a brawl against Tyson Fury. God knows why smiley kept him (and Mata, and Grant, and brought Heaton in, and kept Lingard here, and VDB etc)
B2B: If we had a top DM then maybe we could play VDB there. Since we don't then McFred pretty much pick themselves. I won't mention Pogba as its evident that his heart is not there.
AMC: Bruno's performances had nosedived since he decided that he's a shadow striker. Someone should really put the guy back in the box as he thinks that he's some sort of a Zidane, Charlton and Maradona wrapped in one. VDB was never really given a shot, Martial is too lazy, Lingard is too shit, Sancho is a winger and Mata is more spent then Matic is
STK: Ronaldo needs to whinge less and deliver more, same can be said about Mother Theresa of Manchester, Greenwood is a generational talent but he hardly has any role models on the pitch and its showing, Cavani is mint when fit.
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What the club should do
Invest heavily in January - A new CM is the bare minimum, we really need two.
Get rid of players. Jones, Pogba, Martial, Lingard, Matic and Mata should go. Its time we set up standards at this point. More players should be added to the list in summer
What the manager should do
A- Spot the rotten apples and sell
B- Gegenpressing is fabulous but this team isn't even bothered to run. Maybe a tweak is needed in our tempo and then we can progress once and if things hit the ground running.
C- 4-2-2-2 is as common in EPL football as Aramaic is at No 10. Asking these players (who are not particularly motivated and bright) to adapt to a new system, a new tempo and start passing the ball at blistering speed/accuracy, during mid season, is a bit too much. Most won't be able to do it in a life time let alone a couple of weeks.
Thus he should go for a system that they comprehend (4-3-3?) and maybe he should demand less from his players.
GK: DDG is a fantastic shot stopper but he provides little else. I don't see that as a criticism for two reasons. First of all this guy had been bailing out for years, secondly he's part of the furniture so all managers could and should have built a defence that works with him around.
DC: Maguire is the typical old fashioned stereotype English CB. He's big, he's tough, he's slow and he's not particularly bright. For some reason he think he's some Rio Ferdinand and will try to either go forward with the ball or give these long range passes. That's not how he should be played. The guy should be playing deep (which would compliment DDG as the guy would never leave his small box) and told that's he's not particularly bright. The only CB we've got to compliment him is Varane. The French man has talent, pace and experience. However Varane is constantly injured and gegenpressing won't help on that at all.
FBs: We've got two options here. Dalot is decent going forward but weak in defending. AWB is like a RB stuck to 80s football. He can be decent in defending but he's shit going forward. None of them is good enough to play with United. Shaw can be decent but he's hardly WC and Telles is great going forward but is not a great defender either. So in my opinion, if we're playing Telles then AWB should play. If we're playing Dalot then Shaw must play.
DM: Do we have one? The answer is no. McT is B2B and quite frankly he's not a good player either. Fred is also B2B and is slightly better then McT while Matic is more finished then Bryan Robson after a night of binge drinking night followed by a brawl against Tyson Fury. God knows why smiley kept him (and Mata, and Grant, and brought Heaton in, and kept Lingard here, and VDB etc)
B2B: If we had a top DM then maybe we could play VDB there. Since we don't then McFred pretty much pick themselves. I won't mention Pogba as its evident that his heart is not there.
AMC: Bruno's performances had nosedived since he decided that he's a shadow striker. Someone should really put the guy back in the box as he thinks that he's some sort of a Zidane, Charlton and Maradona wrapped in one. VDB was never really given a shot, Martial is too lazy, Lingard is too shit, Sancho is a winger and Mata is more spent then Matic is
STK: Ronaldo needs to whinge less and deliver more, same can be said about Mother Theresa of Manchester, Greenwood is a generational talent but he hardly has any role models on the pitch and its showing, Cavani is mint when fit.
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What the club should do
Invest heavily in January - A new CM is the bare minimum, we really need two.
Get rid of players. Jones, Pogba, Martial, Lingard, Matic and Mata should go. Its time we set up standards at this point. More players should be added to the list in summer
What the manager should do
A- Spot the rotten apples and sell
B- Gegenpressing is fabulous but this team isn't even bothered to run. Maybe a tweak is needed in our tempo and then we can progress once and if things hit the ground running.
C- 4-2-2-2 is as common in EPL football as Aramaic is at No 10. Asking these players (who are not particularly motivated and bright) to adapt to a new system, a new tempo and start passing the ball at blistering speed/accuracy, during mid season, is a bit too much. Most won't be able to do it in a life time let alone a couple of weeks.
Thus he should go for a system that they comprehend (4-3-3?) and maybe he should demand less from his players.
Christ, what a bunch of coddled twats.
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