This is true but at least Ralf is interim. Some of these lot are here for what is their football life. Shocking stuff.
It’s the players, not the manager
- Thread starter VidaRed
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
There's definitely an element of truth in this.
However, as I was getting to in another thread, going from extreme to another mid season is going to create major problems. The summer would have been the best time for another reset.
It might well prove beneficial to go a step back before making 2 forward but this season can't just die out. Having no European football next season would be bad and going to impact on who we can bring in.
Yes. It’s always both - win, lose or draw.
Coach and players together can get us back to something half decent.
Better players (and, for all I know, a better coach) would help.
This is so obvious. Or we blame the guy who's been here 5 games instead of the guys who've been failing for years to make basic passes and tackles
Always both. Clear that the so called cultural reboot essentially meant turning a blind eye to the dressing room power struggle, this won't be a quick fix and is basically what we should have done post SAF. Maybe, for the first time since then, we might be able to use the phrase 'rebuild' and it be actually accurate for once.
Nope , a washed up manager wouldn't pull 81 points and 2 trophies at washed up club like United. Washed up manager is like Ole , "best manager post saf" but no club inside top 5 leagues bother to hire him. Give Mourinho 3 seasons at Roma and we will see that he is nowhere near finished. Fergie need 5 seasons before he won first trophy at United , meanwhile "a washed up" Mourinho expected to win immediately that's just showing nobody actually thinks he is finished. No human in this world could make me believe Mourinho is washed up, not when i keep seeing how finished United is , when i keep seeing how correct his predicament was and how you guys are much worse without him.
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You keep talking about ancient history. “Fergie needed 5 seasons”. That was like a century ago. Football was different.
Mourinho is a bum. Make a poll asking if United fans want him back and the overwhelming majority will say feck no.
I’m not trying to make you believe anything. You quoted me to defend Mourinho’s honour. My verdict on him won’t be swayed. Washed up manager.
Which trophies? There are only 3 trophies that matter and Mourinho failed to win any of them in 3 seasons at United despite having the luxury of breaking world transfer records, which no manager in United history has had prior or since.
Finishing 19 points behind Guardiola after breaking a world transfer fee record and having the squad with the highest wagebill is not an accomplishment. Finding yourself 18 and 19 points behind Guardiola and Klopp, respectively, by December of the next season is even worse.
If Mourinho isn't finished, then he must not be a very good manager.
How many of Rangnick's purchases are playing badly?
I am not a Jose fan but he won the Premier League in 2015 and joined us in 2016 so to say he wasn’t a top manager when he came to Utd is ludicrous!
I was excited to see Greenwood, Sancho and Rashford in a front 3.
Instead we see Ronaldo with players like Sancho, Rashford and Greenwood as Attacking midfielders
Cavani next to Ronaldo doing all the pressing whilst Ronaldo is there.
Ronaldo messed it up.
Instead we see Ronaldo with players like Sancho, Rashford and Greenwood as Attacking midfielders
Cavani next to Ronaldo doing all the pressing whilst Ronaldo is there.
Ronaldo messed it up.
I tend to think so too. It's remarkable how well they synchronize their shit form together. To many of them are to comfortable imo. They did not respond to the tough love of Mourinho, sort of responded to Ole but ultimately let him down big time, now we hear about moaning for to long training sessions and we see terrible football displays like this.
It was never about tactics or coaching imo but about some very soft characters in the team.
Agree with this. We had something going in previous seasons with Martial playing as Striker that can hold the ball and bringing Rashford and Greenwood into play. That's what we need to do, find someone who can hold the ball effectively and give time for the team to assemble in forward areas. Now with Roanldo, who can hardly hold the ball fora. second nor do any link up play. This has been detrimental to the way we play and our wingers look clueless.I was excited to see Greenwood, Sancho and Rashford in a front 3.
Instead we see Ronaldo with players like Sancho, Rashford and Greenwood as Attacking midfielders
Cavani next to Ronaldo doing all the pressing whilst Ronaldo is there.
Ronaldo messed it up.
Exactly. My biggest problem is the interplay thing.
Martial was able to play with his back to goal and bring others to play. Cavani was able to lead the line and make passes too.
Now this season we have Ronaldo who's first touch has been too bad to bring anyone else in to play, his passes are always likely to go backwards than bringing someone else to play in dangerous positions like Greenwood and Rashford. Ronaldo isn't even making the runs behind the defence himself to create spaces for the rest of the team either. No passing, no hold up play, no fluidity, no Space.
I love Ronaldo but Ronaldo the LW and Ronaldo the ST are two different players. The team we were building up for last season that had some sort of fluidity and balance with Greenwood, Rashford, Bruno, Martial/Cavani and the potential addition of Sancho - has been put aside due to Ronaldo coming in and pushing our last seasons ability of the side to the bin.
People are now saying that Greenwood, Rashford, Sancho, Bruno isn't good enough because they are not creating enough chances just for Ronaldo, purely for Ronaldo -
When none of those players were that type of players pre Ronaldo trying to create for a player like Ronaldo last season.
Greenwood was our goalscorer, not creator.
Rashford is the same.
Bruno Fernandes was a creator but also a very regular goalscorer for us - what happened to his goals this season?
Sancho was bought as a same, a forward able to score and make passes -
Where are all the goals?
The goals are only coming from Ronaldo. If the team sets him up there's a chance he scores but no one else really scores like they used to because Ronaldo can't bring others in to play. Loses the ball. Ronaldo also isn't a good finisher as he used to be, he gets some decent chances created for him but he can't even shoot directly on goal, as we saw yesterday. Shots going wide, shots where he doesn't even connect with the ball.
It wasn't perfect but we had a good balanced team last season - it's why we were expecting us to compete for the title. Ronaldo comes and messes that up by being our main man, our main tactic - something he struggles with due to what he lacks, what he can do and cannot do; not balancing with the rest of the team and how they preffered to play last season. Do we now chuck all our team out to buy new players that can get the best out of a 37 year old Ronaldo? Not for me. I'd just stop utilising Ronaldo and go back to perfecting what we were using last season.
However his ego won't just let him be a player of the squad, a player that can start a match sometimes or start sometimes from the bench. He is now the main player of the team. Our main tactic of the team.
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I think we need someone that badly wants to come here but also one with potential to be amongst the best. If Ralf fails, we still need to take a long term approach because just bringing in Ten Hag to coach these players is not the root and branch restructuring we need.
Look at Arsenal right now, they have been quietly rebuilding and are now at a stage where City need a bent Ref to beat them. We have been laughing at them but they are finally starting to get things right.
Another thing is that this approach of buying one or two expensive players per window clearly doesn't work because these players don't have the mentality to carry the weight of expectations those fees carry. Maguire and Sancho don't play like £160m players but we could have had four players in the £40m bracket and addressed our longstanding weaknesses quicker. This has to change and I am sure Ralf can help in that respect but the worry is that should he fail in his interim stint he won't have the necessary authority to push changes through.
Since the season can be considered as write off, I would be happy if ralf pick 6-7 players from the academy and mould them to be core future players. Drop all the underperforming players or players who want out
I disagree. Got ran out of Real and had a title winning Chelsea team sitting in 16th. Guy was finished by the time he got to United
If it’s just the players fault, why do you need a Manager then?
But why did all our players (bar De Gea) suddenly drop from a good level to, well, whatever the hell we are watching atm?
We finished second place last season, third place season before that, we went far in most cups we played in. We weren´t fantastic by any means but it felt like we were taking small steps in the right direction. The general feeling was positive.
This place was buzzing with excitement before the season started, lots of people thought that we were genuinly in the mix for a title fight, and then something happens and we can´t play decent football to save our lives.
Would love to know what the feck is going on.
We finished second place last season, third place season before that, we went far in most cups we played in. We weren´t fantastic by any means but it felt like we were taking small steps in the right direction. The general feeling was positive.
This place was buzzing with excitement before the season started, lots of people thought that we were genuinly in the mix for a title fight, and then something happens and we can´t play decent football to save our lives.
Would love to know what the feck is going on.
People got carried away and we had a massive cult of Ole. However anyone who watched our games knew that we were mostly crap and outplayed and finished 3rd and 2nd not because we were good but because other teams managed to be even worse. But you just knew that sooner or later the likes of Liverpool and Chelsea will get their shite together and we will be back where we belong. This is exactly what happened. We knew that with Ole we can go on 10 win streak but then go on relegation form straight after. No chance to seriously compete for title with this kind of play.
It's clearly all of it.
We signed the wrong players. At the start of the season everyone was buzzing about how many attackers we had, Ronaldo, Cavani, Rashford, Sancho, Bruno, Martial, Greenwood etc but you then need to actually find a way to play them effectively while compensating for the areas we didn't strengthen (centre midfield). We're now just a a collective of talented players but that doesn't make a good team. Once things start to go wrong that bunch of talent needs to be ready to fight not point fingers.
Mourinho still has his tactical nous but has lost his man management ability to get players to run through a brick wall for him, or at least in England he has.
In England at least I have never known a manager so disliked by his own fanbase as a person - at both United and Spurs - a bit due to his defensive football but mostly a dislike of him as a person. And refs too - no chance of getting Klopp style decisions in your favour with Mourinho in charge, we got nothing when he was here.
He actually did a good job at Chelsea remoulding them into Champions but they stopped playing for him after the doctor incident and he has struggled to get his players onside since.
He really was about par given his team here for the first 2 seasons but people remember the last few months when he spat his dummy snd burned the house down. No big club in England would have him now - his personslity is too toxic for fans refs and players know his history.
Id be very surprised if Roma improve significantly and get top 4 to be honest.
Journalists can set a narrative - how is he seen by the journos in Italy ? (He was really disliked by many of the journos here)
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I thought RR was bought in to evaluate where we are poor and put it right. We should be in the middle of signing at least one cm/DM. If we are still where we are player wise by end of Jan it's on both player and manager. He has a month to stamp his authority and change it around. On paper midfield and RB apart it's a strong squad. If certain players won't adapt the manager needs to be strong enough to drop anyone not adapting or improving. The buck stops with him
This is without a doubt the worst position I feel we have been with our squad.
Could anyone possibly say there is a position where someone is regularly saying, where that player 100% should not be there and his backup deserves to instead?
I look across the back 4, and no one is undroppable, nor are the other choices. CMs are all pretty average to poor, and have been for years. The front line, where I thought we would have the biggest selection headache at the start of the season, is still so but for all the wrong reason.
Ronaldo, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Lingard, Mata. 8 players across 3 positions, and I dont see one of those deserving an "undroppable" status up front. Ronaldo is the only one who has scored goals this season for us so an argument for him to be, but it's damning that we have players who have had strong seasons with us (bar Sancho but came off 3 great seasons at BD), yet I dont have faith in any of them.
There is a severe lack of confidence and belief right now, and who knows why as well as how we can shift this negative atmosphere. Ralf has walked into an absolute shiteshow and needs to stop this decline before we truly fall to Arsenal-levels of obscurity.
Could anyone possibly say there is a position where someone is regularly saying, where that player 100% should not be there and his backup deserves to instead?
I look across the back 4, and no one is undroppable, nor are the other choices. CMs are all pretty average to poor, and have been for years. The front line, where I thought we would have the biggest selection headache at the start of the season, is still so but for all the wrong reason.
Ronaldo, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Lingard, Mata. 8 players across 3 positions, and I dont see one of those deserving an "undroppable" status up front. Ronaldo is the only one who has scored goals this season for us so an argument for him to be, but it's damning that we have players who have had strong seasons with us (bar Sancho but came off 3 great seasons at BD), yet I dont have faith in any of them.
There is a severe lack of confidence and belief right now, and who knows why as well as how we can shift this negative atmosphere. Ralf has walked into an absolute shiteshow and needs to stop this decline before we truly fall to Arsenal-levels of obscurity.
There is no manager in the world who can correct our players' passing skills. If you can't do a simple 10 yard pass to a teammate, sometimes under no pressure, nothing can help you.
This is what's baffling to me. Forget systems, style of play, everything. How can our starters not even pass decently? All of our midfield options crumble under the slightest pressure. We have Rashford and other youngsters who can't be arsed. Maguire making mistakes left and right.
I'm convinced Pep would quit football and take a long sabbatical maybe if he was forced to coach these players. Bar Greenwood, and maybe Bruno/Varane/Shaw there are no players who Pep would keep.
This is what's baffling to me. Forget systems, style of play, everything. How can our starters not even pass decently? All of our midfield options crumble under the slightest pressure. We have Rashford and other youngsters who can't be arsed. Maguire making mistakes left and right.
I'm convinced Pep would quit football and take a long sabbatical maybe if he was forced to coach these players. Bar Greenwood, and maybe Bruno/Varane/Shaw there are no players who Pep would keep.
Sounds really depressing man. We came so close to a solution and now find ourselves miles away from shore. If we can see this clearly, why can't Rangnick? Isn't he supposed to be this bullish guy who isn't afraid to make big decisions? I still hasn't lost all hope on him but he needs to make big decisions soon enough. Players aren't gonna change mid season , so he needs to do with what we have.
For now i'd play Greenwood as our #9. He has the best ball retention within our team and can wriggle around tight spots. Then play two wingers on either side of him to see if that works out.
Would agree if it was that easy. Lucky if one or two of them become future starters.
Understand why we are afraid of playing academy players when we struggle to find our play. Bringing in many academy players now (in the current environment)and we join the relegation battle. It’s no good for neither the players or the club.
The experienced players have to turn the ship before we start matching academy players.
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Well I think Rangnick can't drop Ronaldo. If he does decide to drop Ronaldo and the other players end up losing points like we did vs Newcastle/Wolves - the finger is going to be pointed at Rangnick and him dropping Ronaldo.
This happened with Ole.
I remember United vs Everton- Ronaldo was benched for Cavani, we were leading the game & in proper ease of control of the match, Ronaldo came on as a sub and we lost all control of the match and let in a goal. We lost points & the problem was blamed on Ole for dropping Ronaldo by SAF, even though the goal and control was lost once he came on.
On the other side when Ronaldo does start a match and we do end up losing points - The blame goes to nearly everyone except him for not creating enough chances for him.
Also, Rangnick has a history of playing two striker formations. Ronaldo was never a striker at his prime so he always needed a player like Rooney or Benzema centrally doing the strikers work. This is why Rashford and Ronaldo didn't work in partnership.Greenwood and Ronaldo didnt much either. This is why Cavani and Ronaldo is the only partnership that seems to work because Cavani can play like a striker and hold the ball up, back to goal and make passes etc. Ronaldo can't do that. Rashford can't. Developing Greenwood so far can't either to the level of Cavani.
Cavani must now start to get the best out of Ronaldo, then making our Inverted forwards playing as Attacking midfielders because they can't play in their normal positions. Bruno is playing wider than ever too.
I really liked the way we were playing at the start of the season before Ronaldo joined. Greenwood scoring goals. Pogba making assists for fun. Bruno was Bruno. We seemed like a decent (not perfect team) able to find some form in to the season. Ronaldo came and that all completely stopped and disappeared.
It felt like we became more simplistic.
The players are clearly the issue, but whatever players you have it’s up to the manager to get them playing greater than the sum of their parts. It’s only been 5 games, not every manager is going to have an immediate impact like Conte or Tuchel.
The problems run through-out the entire club.
The board/Woodward are the ones that get googly eyed at big names, that give out absurd contracts, that only demand we finish 4th.
The manager picks (most) new signings, sets the standards, players underperforming having no threat to their place, the levels that are acceptable in training
The players jogging around like a team of Berbatovs when we need a team of Tevez, scared to even have the ball, scared to apparently finish training in the bloody dark
It all combines over years to a rot at the club. It is no one player or manager's fault but a culmination of problems. Hopefully with Woodward going and Rangnick coming in we can start to change it.
The board/Woodward are the ones that get googly eyed at big names, that give out absurd contracts, that only demand we finish 4th.
The manager picks (most) new signings, sets the standards, players underperforming having no threat to their place, the levels that are acceptable in training
The players jogging around like a team of Berbatovs when we need a team of Tevez, scared to even have the ball, scared to apparently finish training in the bloody dark
It all combines over years to a rot at the club. It is no one player or manager's fault but a culmination of problems. Hopefully with Woodward going and Rangnick coming in we can start to change it.
Havent seen much good from this Cavani/Ronaldo partnership either.
We dont have a midfield and our creators are shit as well. Same with our fullbacks and captain fantastic. Not a singel player in the team fancy the gegenpress either.
This group needed a proper authoritative figure like Conte after the disaster this season has become. The squad has talent but lacks the desire and individuals are running that team. Conte would have corrected that attitude quickly and would not have been afraid to drop big names. We mess up yet again by appointing Rangnick.
I've said this multiple times get a competent cm pairing capable of creating passing and tackling like every other team seems to haveand the rest will become better. Absolute joke a club like utd haven't got this
To be honest I'm super confused about what is going wrong.
For a long time I thought it was Ole and without doubt he severely lacked in terms of experience and tactics. He was also massively guilty of playing underperforming players no matter how badly they play.
I really thought RR would shake things up and drop some of those players but it hasn't really been the case.
I'm still struggling to see why some players who have been awful this season are still not getting dropped. We also seem to have completely given up on pressing.
I'm not sure if RR is lacking the balls to make major changes, the board is putting pressure to play certain players, politics are at play etc.
I think we need to see what RR does in the next game. If he doesnt ring some major changes I will be worried
For a long time I thought it was Ole and without doubt he severely lacked in terms of experience and tactics. He was also massively guilty of playing underperforming players no matter how badly they play.
I really thought RR would shake things up and drop some of those players but it hasn't really been the case.
I'm still struggling to see why some players who have been awful this season are still not getting dropped. We also seem to have completely given up on pressing.
I'm not sure if RR is lacking the balls to make major changes, the board is putting pressure to play certain players, politics are at play etc.
I think we need to see what RR does in the next game. If he doesnt ring some major changes I will be worried
I think it's a bit of both personally. Most the fault is with the players as you can't excuse the sloppiness they exhibit along with their general demeanour on the pitch. I don't want to read to much into it as it was his first game back but I thought Jones showed more character last night then I've seen in a while from a united player.
But I don't think you can ignore the managers as well. RR said himself that the manager has to adapt to the players and their abilities.
I find it hard to believe that with a bit of research of our games this season that you can't see that:
1. Our midfield is not very good and struggles to control games. No combination of 2 midfielders we have seem to either be able to be an effective defensive shield or an offensive springboard and
2. Our attack isn't good enough to overcome the issues in the midfield and don't play like a unit. There aren't enough creators who will make the right decision more often then not
As such for me I think, until you bring players in, you have to accept (as it looked like Carrick had) that we need more support in midfield and put a 3rd player in there. Allow us a chance to get some control of the game and then hope that between the attackers we have one of them will take a chance.
Even if my suggestion is the wrong one (and fully accept that in the grand scheme of things I know nothing about pro football) but I find it hard to believe that our recent approaches have been the right ones for the players we have right now. As I said there's a bunch of issues that aren't related to the manager but the players/what has allowed to happen in the club for a prolonged period however I think RR hasn't made a great start either.
But I don't think you can ignore the managers as well. RR said himself that the manager has to adapt to the players and their abilities.
I find it hard to believe that with a bit of research of our games this season that you can't see that:
1. Our midfield is not very good and struggles to control games. No combination of 2 midfielders we have seem to either be able to be an effective defensive shield or an offensive springboard and
2. Our attack isn't good enough to overcome the issues in the midfield and don't play like a unit. There aren't enough creators who will make the right decision more often then not
As such for me I think, until you bring players in, you have to accept (as it looked like Carrick had) that we need more support in midfield and put a 3rd player in there. Allow us a chance to get some control of the game and then hope that between the attackers we have one of them will take a chance.
Even if my suggestion is the wrong one (and fully accept that in the grand scheme of things I know nothing about pro football) but I find it hard to believe that our recent approaches have been the right ones for the players we have right now. As I said there's a bunch of issues that aren't related to the manager but the players/what has allowed to happen in the club for a prolonged period however I think RR hasn't made a great start either.
I honestly think we should steer clear in terms of buying British players from premier league clubs like Harry Maguire and Aaron Wan Bissaka. Overpaid and maybe a factor in there performances. I honestly think our aim should be to buy the best young foreign players from foreign clubs and actually use them. Can't be any worse than Harry Maguire or Wan Bissaka. Buying British players from premier league clubs clearly hasn't worked.
Summer will be interesting.
Pogba, Cavani, Lingard, Mata all going to leave on a free
Henderson and Martial wants out. Probably DVB also
Will Ronaldo stay another season for Europa/conference football
We will be putting our faith in the likes of Maguire, McFred and Rashford to take our club forwards
Pogba, Cavani, Lingard, Mata all going to leave on a free
Henderson and Martial wants out. Probably DVB also
Will Ronaldo stay another season for Europa/conference football
We will be putting our faith in the likes of Maguire, McFred and Rashford to take our club forwards
"Interesting" is one way of describing that horror show!
It is going to be the biggest period of upheaval and player churn in quite some time at the club. I expect that the team in 2.5 years' time will scarcely be recognisable. It will be the fourth major rebuild since SAF retired and with each one our attractiveness to top players and status as a big club is further diminished.
The 2026/27 rebuild, when we'll be another two sacked managers down the line and will have cemented ourselves as Europa Conference League regulars, will be a doozy.
The club should get started on it in January. Having a bloated squad isn't good for morale. There's no point having Martial, Lingard, Mata and even one of Henderson and Heaton around if they won't ever get played. They should all leave in January and not be registered for the second half of the season.
Then in the summer we have a more manageable chunk to deal with, in terms of replacing or renewing Matic, Cavani, DVB, and Pogba in the summer, as well as loan returnees like Pereira and Williams.