When exactly did our decline begin?

Kopral Jono

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I know this has been discussed to death but at the moment I don't see light at the end of this mediocrity tunnel, so I want to get a general consensus from this forum on this. Our failure to properly replace Ronaldo? Sometime during the 'no value in market' years? When Fergie left and picked Moyes as his successor? Letting Gill go at the same time as Fergie? A combination of said unfortunate events?

If you ask me, the 'no value in market' years marked the start and we're still seeing the effects until this very day. Fergie failed to identify the direction of where football at the highest level was heading, dare I say uncharacteristically so since he was typically so good with adapting to the times, by questioning the sustainability of the whole buying success trend at the time. The board finally realised that one has to spend to win silverware around the time Moyes left but by then the rot has already set in, and coupled with Woodward's sheer incompetence in the transfer market, the rest is history.
 

Bwuk

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We’ve been rubbish for a long time. Bruno coming in and being unrreal papered over a lot of the cracks under Ole, until he lost form.

We’ve spend 100m on a RB & CM who can barely control a ball ffs.
 

devilish

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If you ask me it started with SAF becoming sentimental. As Keane puts it

"People said [Ferguson] always had the best interests of Manchester United at heart. Darren Ferguson [his son] won a medal. He was very lucky.

“[Alex Ferguson’s] brother was the chief scout for Manchester United for a long time. I’m surprised his wife wasn’t involved in the staff somewhere.”


Then this sentimentality was extended to his former players with guys like Scholes and Giggs remaining with United till their nearly 40s. Sir Alex was against Gaz retiring and Gaz had to force the hand by calling the retirement himself when it was evident that he was finished. Sir Alex also chose his successor, the incompetent David Moyes.

To achieve that Sir Alex needed absolute power which explains why United's football structure was that of a club stuck in the 90s. That left a power vacuum when Sir Alex left with no football person sitting at board level. The Glazers were devastating to this club, they had no idea of football, they had no intention to learn and quite frankly they only cared about money. They saddled us with a mountain of debt and the incompetence of David Woodward who was given far too power on football matters.

Today's United is the result of this mess. We have the remnants of the United way (Fletcher and Phelan), Moyes way (Murtough), LVG way (Bout), Ole's way (Cleggy, Pert, Ramsay etc) and Woodward's way (Arnold, Judge etc). Different styles, different philosophies but all specialised in one thing ie failing.

I think we're beyond repair at this point. We've got a heavily unbalanced and huge side, with players being on ridiculous salaries who want out while still earning the dosh. The Glazers simply lack the financial clout to commit itself to the very painful restructuring United need and quite frankly there isn't the talent needed to make sure that it would succeed this time round. We need new owners with lot of ££££ and a true passion for football.
 

cyril C

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I agree with the view that our decline began when we failed to / never bother to replace CR, Scholes, Giggs. When we did buy players, regardless of the price tag, they were/are average at best, worse in some cases.

Apart from poor scouts, our coaching team is not great neither. Compare Westham and MU these 2 seasons. WH can ride on their form and strength, still limited by depth in squad, maintain their form nevertheless. As for MU, great in 1 season then drop into horror following season. Where is the term progress, improvement, and learn from your experience?
 

TMDaines

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The signing of RVP seemed like a real change in direction that never made sense to me until Ferguson announced his retirement. It was basically a decision to maximise the chance of winning back the title that season with no regard for the years to come.
 

AneRu

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If you ask me it started with SAF becoming sentimental. As Keane puts it

"People said [Ferguson] always had the best interests of Manchester United at heart. Darren Ferguson [his son] won a medal. He was very lucky.

“[Alex Ferguson’s] brother was the chief scout for Manchester United for a long time. I’m surprised his wife wasn’t involved in the staff somewhere.”


Then this sentimentality was extended to his former players with guys like Scholes and Giggs remaining with United till their nearly 40s. Sir Alex was against Gaz retiring and Gaz had to force the hand by calling the retirement himself when it was evident that he was finished. Sir Alex also chose his successor, the incompetent David Moyes.

To achieve that Sir Alex needed absolute power which explains why United's football structure was that of a club stuck in the 90s. That left a power vacuum when Sir Alex left with no football person sitting at board level. The Glazers were devastating to this club, they had no idea of football, they had no intention to learn and quite frankly they only cared about money. They saddled us with a mountain of debt and the incompetence of David Woodward who was given far too power on football matters.

Today's United is the result of this mess. We have the remnants of the United way (Fletcher and Phelan), Moyes way (Murtough), LVG way (Bout), Ole's way (Cleggy, Pert, Ramsay etc) and Woodward's way (Arnold, Judge etc). Different styles, different philosophies but all specialised in one thing ie failing.

I think we're beyond repair at this point. We've got a heavily unbalanced and huge side, with players being on ridiculous salaries who want out while still earning the dosh. The Glazers simply lack the financial clout to commit itself to the very painful restructuring United need and quite frankly there isn't the talent needed to make sure that it would succeed this time round. We need new owners with lot of ££££ and a true passion for football.
Summer of 2009 when we pawned Ronaldo just to help the Glazers restructure their toxic debt and replaced him with Valencia, Owen and Obertan. We could have got Robben and Sneijder out that deal but didn't and not only did Madrid break the bank on Ronaldo they also brought in Kaka, Benzema and Alonso in that summer - we, who had been humiliated by Barcelona didn't even react.

We are just not a serious football club and the players have caught on to it. Why fight to win when you earn twice as much as a CL and PL winner Mane? We lure players with big wages which then dampen their hunger and allows laziness to creep in. Sancho, in one or two years, will eclipse what Roy Keane made throughout his career. No wonder these kids can now afford to have journalists in their pockets to explain their failures.

Next summer we are going to need to chase out toxic players and replace them. Problem is no one will want to pay for them and we will need the Glazers to fund a major rebuild, which they won't, so if we think this season is bad then watch out for next season because of we appoint a competent manager he will demand greater effort levels from these lazy bastards and they will bury him too.
 

devilish

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Summer of 2009 when we pawned Ronaldo just to help the Glazers restructure their toxic debt and replaced him with Valencia, Owen and Obertan. We could have got Robben and Sneijder out that deal but didn't and not only did Madrid break the bank on Ronaldo they also brought in Kaka, Benzema and Alonso in that summer - we, who had been humiliated by Barcelona didn't even react.

We are just not a serious football club and the players have caught on to it. Why fight to win when you earn twice as much as a CL and PL winner Mane? We lure players with big wages which then dampen their hunger and allows laziness to creep in. Sancho, in one or two years, will eclipse what Roy Keane made throughout his career. No wonder these kids can now afford to have journalists in their pockets to explain their failures.

Next summer we are going to need to chase out toxic players and replace them. Problem is no one will want to pay for them and we will need the Glazers to fund a major rebuild, which they won't, so if we think this season is bad then watch out for next season because of we appoint a competent manager he will demand greater effort levels from these lazy bastards and they will bury him too.
I fully agree.

However I think it started earlier. Of course a small worm takes decades to leave its mark into a juggernaut. I agree with Keane's quote perfectly. SAF was slowly but surely becoming sentimental with people who had no business coming to United given top jobs simply because of their close proximity to Sir Alex. I remember Martin blowing his trumpet about how his scouting acumen was key in finding the likes of Taibi and Forlan. Someone like that should have been sacked not promoted.
 

RORY65

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Selling Ronaldo and letting Tevez go to City and thinking Valencia, Obertan and Diouf were suitable replacements were when it started, we went from the 2nd best team in Europe hoping to get back to being the best to accepting a lowering of standards. Domestically we were still able to compete because the quality of other top teams dropped off at the same time (I actually think if you were to rank the best league winning teams of the last 20 years in order, the bottom 7 sides would all be from 2010 to 2016) and the genius of Ferguson but it showed the lack of ambition. It also meant that Ferguson spent his last few years trying to get every last drop out of a not great side that weren't able to give anymore when he left rather than leaving Moyes with a younger, more dynamic squad.

Then you add the absolute mess that Woodward made of things and the sense that the commercial side was able to finally take priority over the football side once they had got Ferguson out of the way and you have the mess we have now now.
 

RedBanker

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When we let Ronaldo leave at the beginning of his prime. Instead of buying two three world class players at that point to dominate football for the next decade.
 

Tarrou

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when the Glazers bought us

Fergie managed to paper over the cracks for a while

but selling Ronaldo and replacing him with Valencia says it all

not a top club mentality
 

Jeppers7

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It’s always going to be very difficult to outperform the goals of your owners. You only need look at when the Glazers spend and when they don’t to understand why we are struggling. They are reactive and not proactive to everything, the very worst kind of owners for a club our size.
 

AneRu

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I fully agree.

However I think it started earlier. Of course a small worm takes decades to leave its mark into a juggernaut. I agree with Keane's quote perfectly. SAF was slowly but surely becoming sentimental with people who had no business coming to United given top jobs simply because of their close proximity to Sir Alex. I remember Martin blowing his trumpet about how his scouting acumen was key in finding the likes of Taibi and Forlan. Someone like that should have been sacked not promoted.
At least Fergie, with all his sentimentality won so he can argue that his methods work. The sh*t show we now have poisoning the club can't point to one thing done right since 2013, things aren't planned they just take the path of least resistance.

Take how we hire managers and compare with how Leicester and Villa got their men in the middle of the season. We wait for the ones whose contracts are running out or with cheap release clauses and I think this is how we ended up with Ole as a permanent manager and not Poch, they simply reasoned that negotiating with Levy was too hard. We settled for a guy that had one or two short stints as coach because we couldn't bully Ajax for ETH.

This will happen again in the summer, we will keep toxic characters and useless players because it is cheaper to extend a contract than to buy a new player. These idiots even offered Mata a new contract, how sh*t can a management get?
 

devilish

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At least Fergie, with all his sentimentality won so he can argue that his methods work. The sh*t show we now have poisoning the club can't point to one thing done right since 2013, things aren't planned they just take the path of least resistance.

Take how we hire managers and compare with how Leicester and Villa got their men in the middle of the season. We wait for the ones whose contracts are running out or with cheap release clauses and I think this is how we ended up with Ole as a permanent manager and not Poch, they simply reasoned that negotiating with Levy was too hard. We settled for a guy that had one or two short stints as coach because we couldn't bully Ajax for ETH.

This will happen again in the summer, we will keep toxic characters and useless players because it is cheaper to extend a contract than to buy a new player. These idiots even offered Mata a new contract, how sh*t can a management get?
The topic title is when the decline started so I had to discuss it accordingly. Needless to say that Sir Alex was a fantastic manager. Even his worst side was better then this tripe
 

dinostar77

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When Fergie retired. Anyone blaming fergie for the decline hasnt got a clue about football. The man was a one off who could get best out of the players he had.
 

KennyBurner

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When we hired Mourinho is when we killed our resurgence. Everything was flowing well till that terrible man came in.
 

MoskvaRed

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Our transfers from 2007 onwards mainly combined a few expensive duds (Berbatov, Anderson) with “value” signings like Valencia and Ashley Young. While this was primarily down to Glazer parsimony, I think SAF also was starting to lose his edge in the transfer market. If the club had appointed a more suitable manager to replace SAF (such as the 2013 version of Mourinho), then maybe he could have kept the plates spinning a bit longer. Instead, we got an out of his depth manager walking into a club with an antiquated, inadequate football management system and a first XI combining mainly greats on their last legs, young hopefuls and mediocrities. Unsurprisingly, the whole rotten structure collapsed and, despite huge amounts spent in the intervening 9 years, we haven’t even laid new foundations yet.
 

dinostar77

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When we hired Mourinho is when we killed our resurgence. Everything was flowing well till that terrible man came in.
Satire? Did you forget moyes and van gaal? Mourinho is still our most successful manager post fergie.
 

Lentwood

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The decline started when the Glazers bought the club, but they are not the sole reason we are in this mess.

I'm unsure if many football fans, or even all United fans, fully grasp the financial impact of the Glazer takeover.

United had zero debts and were a very profitable club with immense power in the transfer market by 2005. The Glazer takeover plunged the club into so much debt that between 2005 and 2010 we paid £75m every year in interest payments. I think again, sometimes it's difficult to grasp how much money that was then. This was 2005, Wayne Rooney, potentially the most exciting talent in World football, had just sold for £20m + £5m add-ons. Cristiano Ronaldo had just cost us £11m. Vidic and Evra cost us a combined £11m and Michael Carrick cost us £18m, all around this time. Just imagine what an extra £75m every year could have done for our squad.

Now, because we did have a fantastic squad full of proven winners and young talents like Wayne Rooney and Cristiano Ronaldo, we actually embarked on a very successful period on the pitch between 2005 and 2010, but we squeezed every last drop we could out of the team and squandered any advantage we had.

By the time SAF retired, the loans had been restructured but the squad was in urgent need of major surgery. In the 12-months between SAF retiring and LvG taking over, we lost Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Giggs and Scholes. Rooney was already regressing, RvP was in his 30s, Carrick and Fletcher both struggled on for another year but had their best years behind them. Park and Nani had also gone, and all of a sudden the squad began to look very short.

What compounded these problems was that because of our success we hadn't evolved as a football club. We had been so reliant on one man that there was no structure in-place to ensure continuity between managers. The scouting department was so bad Moyes was in shock at what he found. An accountant with no experience of being involved in football at any level was put in charge of overseeing the football side of the business. It was a recipe for disaster. We finally had some money to spend again but no idea how or where to spend it.

On top of all that, and a huge factor often missed by your average football fan, was the new multi-billion pound TV deal signed in 2013/14. Sure, this meant United had more cash, but it also meant our PL rivals were now richer and more financially stable than they had ever been. This made it all but impossible to sign players at a decent price from other English clubs. Times gone by, the majority of our big signings had come from English teams. Cole, Yorke, Sheringham, Carrick, Berbatov, Ferdinand, Keane, Pallister, Bruce, Irwin, Ince etc...

It was lazy but effective method of signing players. You knew roughly were you stood with these players as they were unlikely to have too many problems adapting. We also had the safety net, for a long time, of knowing we could afford to let the likes of Rio Ferdinand and Michael Carrick test their mettle at Leeds and Tottenham before signing them. It just isn't viable now. We should almost forget about signing players from the PL UNLESS there is some kind of contractual situation we can exploit. To quote SAF, there genuinely is "no value in the market" when it comes to English players, because our rivals have no motivation to sell.

So, plenty of issues, mainly stemming from Glazer debts/Glazernomics, poor continuity planning, failure to adapt to the changing landscape and having non-footballing people making decisions.

One of the reasons we never get anywhere is because we as a fanbase are still obsessed with managers, because we had one of the best of all time. We seem to fail to understand that the success of a Pep or a Klopp is only possible because of the world-class support they get from Begiristain or Edwards. We think that every new bloke who steps foot in the dugout will be the saviour, when in reality the ships captains are still headed directly at the iceberg and all our managers are really doing is rearranging the (vry overpriced) deckchairs.
 
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andersj

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In retrospect, probably somewhere around the last five years of Ferguson. Failing to improve the midfield. Why did not manage to sign Modric? Why did we not compete for Vidal? Felt like we did not even try at the time.
 

Bebestation

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It happened during the SAF era.

Welbeck, Cleverley, Rafael, Ashley Young, Valencia who cant cross, Smalling and Jones, a non all rounded GK in De Gea etc. Players like Scholes, Rio and Giggs retiring almost in the same era. Carrick and Rooney being old. Not replacing Ronaldo initially. Covering alot of it up with RVP signing.

You can't blame SAF after 20 years; but then again I can't necessarily say thank you for the way he left the club either, alongside hardly any sign of a continuous DOF.
 

AndySmith1990

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2008 was the last time we had a truly world class team that you could say was amongst the elite. Our decline from a European powerhouse began soon after. Ferguson's genius kept us competitive, but it was getting more and more evident the quality of our team was declining. The era of the zombie football was when our football nose dived and its only got worse since.
 

Fluctuation0161

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When the Glazers arrived. 2005.

When they arrived the squad was strong, or was developing to its peak in 2008, it only got weaker as the Glazer years went on.
 

KennyBurner

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Satire? Did you forget moyes and van gaal? Mourinho is still our most successful manager post fergie.
I didnt forget them but player personnel-wise everything went to shite when we appointed Mourinho. Its like we gave up on our current talent and went for shite like lukakku and sanchez.

We also shouldn't be worrying about titles without a good foundation at United. Whats the point of winning the odd Fa cup when you cant do it consistently because you have no long term strategy? Mourinho was the downfall of United because he wasnt a long term strategy. It was all win now and personal accomplishments then move on. We are still paying for that right now while he has changed teams 3 times since he left us.
 

Paul778

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2008 was the last time we had a truly world class team that you could say was amongst the elite. Our decline from a European powerhouse began soon after. Ferguson's genius kept us competitive, but it was getting more and more evident the quality of our team was declining. The era of the zombie football was when our football nose dived and its only got worse since.
Completely. Fergie left us at the top with a title winning side but no manager on earth would get a decent tune out of that squad. It had peaked and there wasn't the quality coming through
 

minoo-utd

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Summer of 2009 when we pawned Ronaldo just to help the Glazers restructure their toxic debt and replaced him with Valencia, Owen and Obertan. We could have got Robben and Sneijder out that deal but didn't and not only did Madrid break the bank on Ronaldo they also brought in Kaka, Benzema and Alonso in that summer - we, who had been humiliated by Barcelona didn't even react.

We are just not a serious football club and the players have caught on to it. Why fight to win when you earn twice as much as a CL and PL winner Mane? We lure players with big wages which then dampen their hunger and allows laziness to creep in. Sancho, in one or two years, will eclipse what Roy Keane made throughout his career. No wonder these kids can now afford to have journalists in their pockets to explain their failures.

Next summer we are going to need to chase out toxic players and replace them. Problem is no one will want to pay for them and we will need the Glazers to fund a major rebuild, which they won't, so if we think this season is bad then watch out for next season because of we appoint a competent manager he will demand greater effort levels from these lazy bastards and they will bury him too.
As much as it's scary but I agree with the most of this post.
 
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Great to see so many posters pin pointing it was exactly when the glazers bought us.

When they didn’t buy any players for years and let Scholes, Vidic, Rio, Carrick, Giggs retire and sold Evra, RVP and Ronaldo without any replacement. We still have never recovered from that and never will under them.
 

GazTheLegend

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@Kopral Jono our "decline" began the second leagues, F.A.'s and governments allowed disgusting entities and states to sportwash football clubs in England.

feck the revisionism and bullshit you read around redcafe. If the state of Abu Dhabi and their torturer owners didn't fund Manchester City, Manchester United would have won the league LAST YEAR - AND under Jose Mourinho when we finished second then. If a former KGB agent who falsified documents to steal oil from the Russian people and funnel it to Vladimir Putin hadn't been allowed to buy a little club in London, then we would have won the league even more often in the 2000's.

Yes our owners are crap and -they- shouldn't be allowed near a football club in England. But how do you compete with a literal country being allowed to own a football club and fund it from the ground up???? What if the USA bought Aldershot with a view to turning them into European Champions and funded them a billion every year. How do you compete with that? That's what our club is up against.

Yes - we failed and yes our owners, managers and players have not been at the level required for a club like Man Utd. But the real reason for our downfall came from outside football and that's a hill I will die on.
 
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The decline started when the Glazers bought the club, but they are not the sole reason we are in this mess.

I'm unsure if many football fans, or even all United fans, fully grasp the financial impact of the Glazer takeover.

United had zero debts and were a very profitable club with immense power in the transfer market by 2005. The Glazer takeover plunged the club into so much debt that between 2005 and 2010 we paid £75m every year in interest payments. I think again, sometimes it's difficult to grasp how much money that was then. This was 2005, Wayne Rooney, potentially the most exciting talent in World football, had just sold for £20m + £5m add-ons. Cristiano Ronaldo had just cost us £11m. Vidic and Evra cost us a combined £11m and Michael Carrick cost us £18m, all around this time. Just imagine what an extra £75m every year could have done for our squad.

Now, because we did have a fantastic squad full of proven winners and young talents like Wayne Rooney and Cristiano Ronaldo, we actually embarked on a very successful period on the pitch between 2005 and 2010, but we squeezed every last drop we could out of the team and squandered any advantage we had.

By the time SAF retired, the loans had been restructured but the squad was in urgent need of major surgery. In the 12-months between SAF retiring and LvG taking over, we lost Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Giggs and Scholes. Rooney was already regressing, RvP was in his 30s, Carrick and Fletcher both struggled on for another year but had their best years behind them. Park and Nani had also gone, and all of a sudden the squad began to look very short.

What compounded these problems was that because of our success we hadn't evolved as a football club. We had been so reliant on one man that there was no structure in-place to ensure continuity between managers. The scouting department was so bad Moyes was in shock at what he found. An accountant with no experience of being involved in football at any level was put in charge of overseeing the football side of the business. It was a recipe for disaster. We finally had some money to spend again but no idea how or where to spend it.

On top of all that, and a huge factor often missed by your average football fan, was the new multi-billion pound TV deal signed in 2013/14. Sure, this meant United had more cash, but it also meant our PL rivals were now richer and more financially stable than they had ever been. This made it all but impossible to sign players at a decent price from other English clubs. Times gone by, the majority of our big signings had come from English teams. Cole, Yorke, Sheringham, Carrick, Berbatov, Ferdinand, Keane, Pallister, Bruce, Irwin, Ince etc...

It was lazy but effective method of signing players. You knew roughly were you stood with these players as they were unlikely to have too many problems adapting. We also had the safety net, for a long time, of knowing we could afford to let the likes of Rio Ferdinand and Michael Carrick test their mettle at Leeds and Tottenham before signing them. It just isn't viable now. We should almost forget about signing players from the PL UNLESS there is some kind of contractual situation we can exploit. To quote SAF, there genuinely is "no value in the market" when it comes to English players, because our rivals have no motivation to sell.

So, plenty of issues, mainly stemming from Glazer debts/Glazernomics, poor continuity planning, failure to adapt to the changing landscape and having non-footballing people making decisions.

One of the reasons we never get anywhere is because we as a fanbase are still obsessed with managers, because we had one of the best of all time. We seem to fail to understand that the success of a Pep or a Klopp is only possible because of the world-class support they get from Begiristain or Edwards. We think that every new bloke who steps foot in the dugout will be the saviour, when in reality the ships captains are still headed directly at the iceberg and all our managers are really doing is rearranging the (vry overpriced) deckchairs.
Fantastic post, detailing all the milestones the towards failiure.

Although I slightly disagree with you that the fans are obsessed with the manager. The club are very good at PR which is why we haven’t even challenged for a title in 9 years but there’s no riots. They are able to constantly rebrand the never ending rebuild ‘cultural resets’ etc.

They know the truth that we won’t win the premier league again under them but they have to always pretend there is a chance or give a slither of hope. The Ronaldo signing is an example of that, it felt to me like the latest distraction they chucked out there. If they were serious and wanted to sign him for footballing reasons then they would have done that 8 years ago.

We are just a brand now and will continue to decline on the footballing side until they leave.
 

JPRouve

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Between 2007 and 2013 we missed on our main investments which were in line with the club philosophy since SAF joined in 1986. We missed on the likes of Hargreaves, Anderson, Nani, Berbatov and Phil Jones. Then we missed on Kagawa, Zaha, Memphis, Schneiderlin, Fellaini, Mata, Martial or Di Maria.

For me since 2007-2008 we failed at purchasing solid players and failed at developing younger players whether they are purchased or coming from the academy.
 

Polar

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Edit: And I off course agree with most said regarding the historic perspective:D
 
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AneRu

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@Kopral Jono our "decline" began the second leagues, F.A.'s and governments allowed disgusting entities and states to sportwash football clubs in England.

feck the revisionism and bullshit you read around redcafe. If the state of Abu Dhabi and their torturer owners didn't fund Manchester City, Manchester United would have won the league LAST YEAR - AND under Jose Mourinho when we finished second then. If a former KGB agent who falsified documents to steal oil from the Russian people and funnel it to Vladimir Putin hadn't been allowed to buy a little club in London, then we would have won the league even more often in the 2000's.

Yes our owners are crap and -they- shouldn't be allowed near a football club in England. But how do you compete with a literal country being allowed to own a football club and fund it from the ground up???? What if the USA bought Aldershot with a view to turning them into European Champions and funded them a billion every year. How do you compete with that? That's what our club is up against.

Yes - we failed and yes our owners, managers and players have not been at the level required for a club like Man Utd. But the real reason for our downfall came from outside football and that's a hill I will die on.
This would be logical if finishing third was the extent of our decline. We have managed to finish in top four, four or five times in the last 8 years. City being a monster of a team doesn't explain that. We have our own issues and those are far more detrimental to us than City and Chelsea.
 

choccy77

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The decline occurred when Ferguson failed to find suitable replacements for certain positions and the club signed players without even watching them and also the quality of other players were not good enough.
 

Ixion

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Joined
Apr 11, 2003
Messages
15,275
There were problems setting in at the end of Fergie's reign. I always remember that last home game under him where Rio scored the winner near the end, we were absolutely awful, then shipped 5 in the next game. Then it has just been one bad decision after another. Getting caught off guard with Fergie going before he planned didn't help, and Gill leaving at the same time. Then its a combination of Woodward and nearsightedness while our rivals moved on.