Arsenal 2021/22 | PLEASE LOCK (SERIOUSLY)

Status
Not open for further replies.

groovyalbert

it's a mute point
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Messages
9,653
Location
London
The Glazers were briefing the same about Ole in September, it means nothing.
In fairness, no one was calling for Ole's head then and no-one really expected our season to end up such a train-wreck.

There was enough evidence up until that point to back Ole, and he was working with what appeared to be a very strong squad. It's just completely nosedived since then.
 

AshRK

Full Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
Messages
12,169
Location
Canada

Couldn't they have used him for the remainder of the season instead?
 

Bilbo

TeaBaggins
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
14,250
I really like where Arsenal are heading.

I doubt it's purely from Arteta because I've not been impressed with his in game management but still - the squad is getting more young, hungry and balanced - also arguably less money oriented.

Maybe it's the ex player nature of Edu and Arteta - ex players are fans after all and even if they are not perfect they do bring positives to the club. I'm not ashamed to say I generally liked Ole's squad building too compared to our other managers.
It's a tough one to judge. Consecutive 8th place finishes should have seen Arteta sacked, but clearly the board were comfortable with whatever plan is in place and they have actually played some impressive football at times this season, so the roots of a pretty good team are there. The problems they are going to have are around the level of investment needed to fill out and improve a squad that now looks light, and also the prospect of predators coming after players like Saka - who already looks a CL level player - and others like Martinelli & Tierney who may be tempted by bigger clubs.
 

TwoSheds

More sheds (and tiles) than you, probably
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
12,919

Couldn't they have used him for the remainder of the season instead?
Arteta doesn't know how to manage big players. Better to let him go. In fairness Lacazette is finally grafting. He's just a bit shit so it's not as good as if he'd started grafting before he was shit.
 

AshRK

Full Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
Messages
12,169
Location
Canada
Arteta doesn't know how to manage big players. Better to let him go. In fairness Lacazette is finally grafting. He's just a bit shit so it's not as good as if he'd started grafting before he was shit.
The issue is they just have Nkiteah and Lacazette as their two strikers and I don't think that's a good choice especially when top 4 is up for grabs. Top managers try to get best from their players and work with them to achieve their goals. Instead arteta is just acting egoistic.
 

Samid

He's no Bilal Ilyas Jhandir
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
49,425
Location
Oslo, Norway

Couldn't they have used him for the remainder of the season instead?
He fell out with Lego and wasn't going to get much playing time. Barca need him right now for their top 4 scrap, not in the summer. If they found any suitor in the summer they would've probably been forced to pay salary installments until January. So it's just delaying an obvious problem.

It's a nightmare when you pay obscene wages to players who don't deserve it. Makes them almost impossible to get rid of and it's a lose-lose no matter what you do.
 

TwoSheds

More sheds (and tiles) than you, probably
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
12,919
The issue is they just have Nkiteah and Lacazette as their two strikers and I don't think that's a good choice especially when top 4 is up for grabs. Top managers try to get best from their players and work with them to achieve their goals. Instead arteta is just acting egoistic.
Well ..that's sort of true. But if losing one big name can get the best out of 3 or 4 others then that's not always the wrong choice, particularly if they're older. Ruud was still a great player when he left us but does anyone think it was the wrong choice now?
 

WeePat

Full Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
17,356
Supports
Chelsea
Aubameyang hasn't played in a single CL game since moving Arsenal 4 years ago. For a player as good as he was, that's a shame.
 

ThierryHenry14

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Messages
4,136
Supports
Arsenal
Aubameyang hasn't played in a single CL game since moving Arsenal 4 years ago. For a player as good as he was, that's a shame.
As long as the paycheck is good, most players don't care to be honest, especially when it is their last big pay check. They even moved to play in China or Saudi for that.
 

GifLord

Better at GIFs than posts
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
22,898
Location
LALALAND
Aubameyang hasn't played in a single CL game since moving Arsenal 4 years ago. For a player as good as he was, that's a shame.
If he was that good in the first place Arsenal wouldn't be the only team going for him back then.
 

WeePat

Full Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
17,356
Supports
Chelsea
As long as the paycheck is good, most players don't care to be honest, especially when it is their last big pay check. They even moved to play in China or Saudi for that.
True but he didn't get his big pay-check until a couple of years after moving to Arsenal. How big was his original contract?
 

Powderfinger

Full Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2015
Messages
2,220
Supports
Arsenal
It's a tough one to judge. Consecutive 8th place finishes should have seen Arteta sacked, but clearly the board were comfortable with whatever plan is in place and they have actually played some impressive football at times this season, so the roots of a pretty good team are there. The problems they are going to have are around the level of investment needed to fill out and improve a squad that now looks light, and also the prospect of predators coming after players like Saka - who already looks a CL level player - and others like Martinelli & Tierney who may be tempted by bigger clubs.
This is a fair assessment, including the part about Arteta being lucky to still have his job.

There are two big picture considerations about Arsenal that often get lost but should be at the forefront of any analysis. The first is that the club was a total dumpster fire on every level when Arteta took over - incompetent and potentially corrupt footballing directors, aging squad without much young talent and lots of terrible contracts, and a terrible internal culture with way too much player power. When you look at all the factors together, not just league position but the condition of the roster and the directors, the club was in the worst shape it had been since prior to George Graham's arrival in 1986.

The second is that we have American owners who - rightly or wrongly - tend to see the situation through the lens of how American sports teams are run. When your team is in a bad condition, the way to rebuild is to bring in a younger coach or manager (often one that has been successful as an assistant somewhere else), deprioritize short term results, focus on adding young talent, get rid of bad contracts and trim the wage bill, and basically try to put together a younger cohort of relatively cheap players to grow together, and then look to eventually spend big money later to add to that core once it develops. There are of course differences across sports in terms of salary cap, roster size, etc but as general principles of how to rebuild a team you see variations on this in American football, basketball, baseball, etc. Whether it will work in football is an open question that can be debated but you can't understand what the team is trying to do without understanding that this is how somebody like Josh Kroenke thinks.
 

Gandalf

Full Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
4,775
Location
Alabama but always Wales in my heart
You are right about the way American owners approach building teams although ironically the Kroenke family owns the LA Rams and this season they have gone the opposite direction and are throwing money and resources at high priced veterans to win right now. It seems to be working for them too as the Rams are in the Super Bowl. If they win the big game it will be interesting to see if that has any influence on their approach to building a team at Arsenal.
 

Powderfinger

Full Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2015
Messages
2,220
Supports
Arsenal
You are right about the way American owners approach building teams although ironically the Kroenke family owns the LA Rams and this season they have gone the opposite direction and are throwing money and resources at high priced veterans to win right now. It seems to be working for them too as the Rams are in the Super Bowl. If they win the big game it will be interesting to see if that has any influence on their approach to building a team at Arsenal.
Yup, very good point.
 

ThierryHenry14

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Messages
4,136
Supports
Arsenal
True but he didn't get his big pay-check until a couple of years after moving to Arsenal. How big was his original contract?
I don't know and won't bother to check, but i am sure it is bigger than his BVB contract, and the biggest contract he could get at the time.
 

WeePat

Full Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
17,356
Supports
Chelsea
And yet why was only Arsenal in for him back then? Even Kaku has nice stats but there's major flaws in his game.
And yet Lukaku has had 3 CL teams drop £75m or more on him in the last 5 years. Auba might not be a perfect striker but him playing 0 CL games during his prime just stood out to me.
 

GifLord

Better at GIFs than posts
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
22,898
Location
LALALAND
And yet Lukaku has had 3 CL teams drop £75m or more on him in the last 5 years. Auba might not be a perfect striker but him playing 0 CL games during his prime just stood out to me.
Despite that played the same amount of games as Lukaku - even his goalscoring record is the same.

 

ThierryHenry14

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Messages
4,136
Supports
Arsenal
And yet Lukaku has had 3 CL teams drop £75m or more on him in the last 5 years. Auba might not be a perfect striker but him playing 0 CL games during his prime just stood out to me.
I am sure for players in the class like Mbappe, Haaland, Messi and Ronaldo CL competition is very important. Especially when the team they are in has a chance to win it. For Arsenal, even if we are in it, we will get eliminated anyway in the early stage with the quality we have for the past 4 year. No one joins Arsenal because we are going to win the league or CL soon. It is the paycheck.
 

WeePat

Full Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
17,356
Supports
Chelsea
Despite that played the same amount of games as Lukaku - even his goalscoring record is the same.

This wasn't really a comparison of Auba and Lukaku. It was just a thing that stood out to me, Auba playing 0 CL games during his prime. He's now gone and joined another Europa League team.
 

ThierryHenry14

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Messages
4,136
Supports
Arsenal
This wasn't really a comparison of Auba and Lukaku. It was just a thing that stood out to me, Auba playing 0 CL games during his prime. He's now gone and joined another Europa League team.
Barcelona is a very nice city to live, good weather, and i am sure he will get rewarded finanically once Barcelona sort out the financial limit they are in this season.
 

Iker Quesadillas

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
3,984
Supports
Real Madrid
the prospect of predators coming after players like Saka - who already looks a CL level player - and others like Martinelli & Tierney who may be tempted by bigger clubs.
This is the biggest issue with this kind of project.

It's not like it's a new thing. Under Wenger, for a while there Arsenal was developing these great young talents. They either left or did not develop much due to injuries.
 

GoonerBear

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2020
Messages
3,054
Supports
Arsenal
This is the biggest issue with this kind of project.

It's not like it's a new thing. Under Wenger, for a while there Arsenal was developing these great young talents. They either left or did not develop much due to injuries.
Doesn't mean its not the correct strategy. At the very least the strategy if you need to sell is to get transfer fees to reinvest.

Its better than overpaying for players in their late 20's in high wages that have little sell on value or at the worst you need to pay off. We've been bit with that way more than is acceptable.
 

Bilbo

TeaBaggins
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
14,250
This is a fair assessment, including the part about Arteta being lucky to still have his job.

There are two big picture considerations about Arsenal that often get lost but should be at the forefront of any analysis. The first is that the club was a total dumpster fire on every level when Arteta took over - incompetent and potentially corrupt footballing directors, aging squad without much young talent and lots of terrible contracts, and a terrible internal culture with way too much player power. When you look at all the factors together, not just league position but the condition of the roster and the directors, the club was in the worst shape it had been since prior to George Graham's arrival in 1986.

The second is that we have American owners who - rightly or wrongly - tend to see the situation through the lens of how American sports teams are run. When your team is in a bad condition, the way to rebuild is to bring in a younger coach or manager (often one that has been successful as an assistant somewhere else), deprioritize short term results, focus on adding young talent, get rid of bad contracts and trim the wage bill, and basically try to put together a younger cohort of relatively cheap players to grow together, and then look to eventually spend big money later to add to that core once it develops. There are of course differences across sports in terms of salary cap, roster size, etc but as general principles of how to rebuild a team you see variations on this in American football, basketball, baseball, etc. Whether it will work in football is an open question that can be debated but you can't understand what the team is trying to do without understanding that this is how somebody like Josh Kroenke thinks.
From what I've seen from you guys this season, at times you certainly have produced quality football and there is a coach there in Arteta for sure, but there is also conflict around the end game for me. Having a model of stripping down the team and building around youth is definitely the right way to go about it, but that plan has to be adapted when the situation dictates it.

I think you've missed a real opportunity to accelerate your process by not investing in this window. United and Spurs are currently fairly mediocre opposition for a top four place, and i had you as favourites a month ago. Your best football has been better than both of those sides this season, but I don't see you getting there now and that takes me back to the point I made previously about the dangers of having the crown jewels picked off. The board are patient. Arteta is patient. Is the talent willing to be patient? This is no sure thing for them and that's where this whole thing could crumble, despite clear progress in the team this season.
 

awop

Odds winner of 'Odds or Evens 2022/2023'
Newbie
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Messages
4,184
Location
Paris
Supports
Arsenal
And yet why was only Arsenal in for him back then? Even Kaku has nice stats but there's major flaws in his game.
Which big clubs needed a 60M striker when we signed him ? We were extremely lucky that everybody was stacked and he was causing trouble at Dortmund at the perfect timing.
 

AshRK

Full Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
Messages
12,169
Location
Canada
Well ..that's sort of true. But if losing one big name can get the best out of 3 or 4 others then that's not always the wrong choice, particularly if they're older. Ruud was still a great player when he left us but does anyone think it was the wrong choice now?
The thing is we had Rooney Ronaldo and Saha who were proper goal scorers especially Rooney and Saha. Ronaldo was a special talent and we also had Ole as a back up. So we had goal scorers. Even then SAF realised he needed a striker and got Larson on temp basis. Lacazette/Nikiteah/Martinelli doesn't give anyone the same feeling. Also if arteta was hell bent on getting rid of Auba then why didn't he keep Balagoun, he seems to be highly rated. Could have kept him. Also, nkiteah has refused to sign a contract and his contract his running out this summer and Laca probably will also leave. I feel it's a total mismanagement.
 

Powderfinger

Full Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2015
Messages
2,220
Supports
Arsenal
From what I've seen from you guys this season, at times you certainly have produced quality football and there is a coach there in Arteta for sure, but there is also conflict around the end game for me. Having a model of stripping down the team and building around youth is definitely the right way to go about it, but that plan has to be adapted when the situation dictates it.

I think you've missed a real opportunity to accelerate your process by not investing in this window. United and Spurs are currently fairly mediocre opposition for a top four place, and i had you as favourites a month ago. Your best football has been better than both of those sides this season, but I don't see you getting there now and that takes me back to the point I made previously about the dangers of having the crown jewels picked off. The board are patient. Arteta is patient. Is the talent willing to be patient? This is no sure thing for them and that's where this whole thing could crumble, despite clear progress in the team this season.
Good points. I can't disagree with any of that.

I would also add that there is a large chunk of the support base that simply isn't as patient as the board and Arteta and that's a significant source of tension. American sports culture normalizes the idea of dealing with some bad seasons as part of a longer-term rebuilding plan. You just accept that it happens, even to the most famous and successful franchises like the Lakers in basketball, the Yankees in baseball, etc. But that notion doesn't really wash in English/European football culture for supporters of big clubs.
 

Mastadon

New Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Messages
769
Supports
Arsenal
This is the biggest issue with this kind of project.

It's not like it's a new thing. Under Wenger, for a while there Arsenal was developing these great young talents. They either left or did not develop much due to injuries.
That was a very different situation. We had all these great young players under Wenger but we also had a lot of rubbish and we didn’t have the funds to sign the players we needed to win trophies to keep the youngsters. This strategy only works long term if you can keep your youngsters.
 

WeePat

Full Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
17,356
Supports
Chelsea
Just catching their game on MOTD. They're playing some pretty good stuff. Very impressed with the football they played today.
 

FootballHQ

Full Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
18,238
Supports
Aston Villa
Just looking at title and you can feel they'll quietly throw final game of the season if they're safely in 4th. Can see Arteta starting likes of Nketieh and Rob Holding. Hasn't he lost the last three games v Everton since he became manager?

Remember earlier this season Arsenal played really bizarrely 1 up at Goodison, were endlessly time wasting when they could've just kept playing and scoring more goals so Arteta approaches that fixture differently to v other bottom end teams.
 

Reditus

Lineup Prediction League Winner 2021-22
Joined
Aug 10, 2019
Messages
5,543
Will hold my hands up and admit i thought Ramsdale was an hilariously bad singing

Ben White I did like and wasn’t against us going for him but as soon as Varane looked realistic I was fully on board that train instead

Sometimes football isn’t as obvious as we like to think
 

UweBein

Creator of the Worst Analogy on the Internet.
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
3,729
Location
Köln
Supports
Chelsea
Yeah... Arteta is doing a brilliant job.
Who would have thought?

Not me.
I see them as a real danger stealing 3rd place from us. Quite impressive from Mr. Lego.
 

Tyrion

Full Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
Messages
5,194
Location
Ireland
They're actually pretty good. It's odd. It's like finding out Rangers have a team of 11 Catholics; it's just not what you'd expect.
 

Fridge chutney

Full Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
8,919
They are in a good run of form. This summer will be big for them, as they will be in Europe next year and the increase in fixtures and expectation will add a pressure to next season that was lacking this season (the silver lining of finishing mid-table 2 years running).
 

ThierryHenry14

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Messages
4,136
Supports
Arsenal
They are in a good run of form. This summer will be big for them, as they will be in Europe next year and the increase in fixtures and expectation will add a pressure to next season that was lacking this season (the silver lining of finishing mid-table 2 years running).
It is just another summer like other team trying to improve the squad. I am not sure how much money Edu has for striker as he already spent big last summer. He needs to bring in multiple players for squad depth as well. He will probably gamble on some unknown young players either from foreign league again. Nobody expect arsenal will challenge for title next season. Hopefully Edu will spend well and improve the quality of the squad further.
 

cesc's_mullet

Get a haircut Hippy!
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Messages
27,066
Supports
Arsenal
Ødegaard has been so much better than I expected (based off last season's showing).

He's pure class on the ball, hustles hard defensively and is a leader on the pitch - and despite being an AM he has a legitimate influence even if he's not scoring or assisting.

What a signing for that price.
 

cesc's_mullet

Get a haircut Hippy!
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Messages
27,066
Supports
Arsenal
Will hold my hands up and admit i thought Ramsdale was an hilariously bad singing

Ben White I did like and wasn’t against us going for him but as soon as Varane looked realistic I was fully on board that train instead

Sometimes football isn’t as obvious as we like to think
I think everyone thought Ramsdale was a laughable signing for the price. Never mind if you consider we already had Leno, and we had a budget for signings with multiple positions in dire need of reinforcement. GK was about the last position we needed to strengthen in the immediate term.

White was another questionable signing - 50 million on a 23 year old CB with only one season of top flight football. Gabriel was already established as a strong quality CB and we had Saliba waiting in the wings.

That was 80 million we could have used elsewhere. But both have really worked out well so far.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.