Not sure what you mean by 'output' (I'm not even sure you know what you mean) but Garrincha scored 12 goals in 50 games for Brazil. Are we now saying that his dribbles meant nothing?
I think his point is that a dribbling is only worth as much as the purpose it serves. In German there is an phrase called "breadless art", meaning something fancy looking, but ultimately without (much) profit and it immediately comes to mind when you for example watch the WC videos that were linked here to show off Hazard's greatness. Countless dribblings, but most of them in no mans land / away from goal / followed by a back pass that reset the tension or taking on one too many and very little in terms of genuinely advancing the attacking move in a crucial way.
All that conveniently ignores the unimpeachable fact that Hazard's dribbling led to greater shot creation than others who didn't dribble, e.g. Muller and Bruno.
Salah is not limited in technical ability, he has a great touch, great passer and can dribble, someone with limited technique doesn’t score he goal he scored against City or Watford.
What nonsense. You literally just argued or completely ignored the stats to say anyone with two eyes can see that, I for one have two perfectly working eyes and can not see for the life of me how someone comes to the conclusion Muller is levels above Hazard when it comes to creativity.
Hazard was incredible in that tournament, Hazard doesn’t dribble for no reason he rarely loses the ball when dribbling and actually penetrates defences with his creative passing or can even score goals with both feet.
Exactly.
Creative in what way? Goals or assist or just the ye test dribble backwards to halfway and lay the 5 meter pass to the DM
The game where he had no goal, no assist no shot on target same in the semi vs France. I am sure Grealish must be the greatest player ever in the history of the PL
You keep peddling this nonsensical narrative - you are just digging yourself deeper into an extremely undignified and laughable hole.
Fairly limited not limited fullstop. And in comparison to players of similar calibre, yes (imo). That's why I brought up Muller who is the same in this regard. They might not be as good a footballer in a technical sense but they play in teams/leagues/styles that elevate them to the level of superior players.
Yes? For those with more than 2 brain cells it's blatantly obvious that judging players on extremely rare scoring events is stupid and therefore more sophisticated metrics are required?
Those with more than 2 brain cells know an attacking player especially one of the front 3 is expected to score, when a game where he had neither a goal an assist nor shot at goal is the greatest game from an attacking player
The obsession with looking at the top line without context is what leads to things like people thinking Lukaku is world class, we should have given Batshauyi more chances and Steve Bruce did a great job at Newcastle.
He’s not fairly limited at all, he has great touch passing and can dribble better than most players, there’s no argument you can make for him being fairly limited and he is also nothing like Muller either. You won’t find Muller scoring the goal Salah scored against Man City or even the couple goals he’s scored against Chelsea as early as this season.
Why do you keep repeating this as if it’s true you know there are metrics that can measure ball progression and Hazard would be right at the top on that list it’s almost has it you haven’t watched the player in his prime.
You have a robotic way of looking at football maybe that’s the problem, I’m so glad the team who have actually been the most successful nation in the world are full of creative inspiring mavericks who don’t adhere to this way of thinking, football would be a far less beautiful sport if everyone only cared solely about efficiency and numbers.
You've completely missed the point here. I'm not saying they are similar in style I'm saying they are similar in the sense that they are not as technical as the best players in the world who they are compared with, but their teams maximize what they are good at which results in their unbelievable output. Whole point leading on from the idea above that you can't just look at assists to determine how creative a player is. Otherwise a player like Muller would be deemed more creative than Bergkamp, which he's obviously not.
Hazard has Benzema and has for the past 3 seasons with nothing to show. I know injury will be a convenient excuse before injuries Hazard showed nothing with Benzema.
Can’t agree Salah isn’t any less technical than any other player he’s compared with, especially in terms of wingers or forwards, but agree to disagree. Also Salah already had great output in his last season in Roma, you can go check, obviously he goes to a better team and coach his numbers naturally will improve.
Those mavericks are remembered because they had output with their dribbles. That's why no one remember Denilson or Quaresma
If it's all about the "end product" then why did you drop Mario Gomez after a 41 goal season?
Muller has been better than Hazard overall not just at the moment Save for the random off periods in a career of over 14yrs
Like, say, their respective national teams? Where Hazard has averaged more assists than Muller over his career? Shot creation is spotty beyond the major tournaments but Hazard has Muller beat there as well - 4.84 SCA/90 for Hazard versus 3.96 for Muller.
Again, Muller is a tremendous player and is certainly the better player at this moment. He also was not better than peak Hazard and arguing otherwise is ridiculous.
We have a Robert Lewandowski who is doing even more end product 45 goal season at the average. It's first week of April and Lewy is already at 45 goals
Still doesn't change the fact you changed a 41 goal forward for a 26 goal one and went from winning feck all to winning everything (ironically while Lewa was at your main competitors).
And we couldn't wait to swap out the 41goal and 26 goal one for Lewa who had even more output than anyone in our history
Yep sometimes you find a freak who can do both.
What about the performance of the guy who won motm that day?
So what?. It's such a pointless stat.
I never said he was a good signing. But to say top coaches are moving away from dribblers when a top coach just bought Grealish whose best attribute is dribbling is odd.
Hazard also had output though so I’m starting to fail to see your actual point.
Saying "injury will be a convenient excuse" just makes it sound like you have a personal grudge against the man.
I would say this is true of a few posters in this thread, and they all appear to be German. I'm not sure what he's done that is so offensive to their sensibilities.
Couldn't agree more. I watched a lot of Chelsea and he absolutely was a level above everyone else on the pitch. He's one of those players that has a supreme talent. His only issue was that he had the same kind of mentality as Berbatov, in that he didn't have any overriding desire to score goals at any cost. He was more than happy beating players and getting assists, and like Berba he was so much better than everyone else technically that he could choose to do so. He's the only player i've seen in the modern game with an almost identical dribbling style to messi, his close control and low centre of gravity means he can beat players so easily and was an absolute joy to watch.
He committed the grave sin of being inefficient with his talent.
He wasn't though. He's highly regarded by the majority of people who've watched him play and understand the game.
Injury would have made sense if he was lighting the league pre injury
4 career CL goals does not look like that type of output
That guy actually scored. But it doesn't count as much as dribbles and winning fouls
