Half the people on Red Cafe were right about Pogba but it doesn’t make them good football managers.
So Jose Was Right?
- Thread starter 432JuanMata
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I dunno about that, I'm sure some have managed to get Accrington Stanley into the Champion League.
Of course Jose was right about a lot of things. He worked with and trained all these players and knew exactly what they were like - and he told us. Many didn’t want to believe him and maybe that’s because we’d lost trust in Jose been the Special One he announced himself to be.
Jose had his faults, and from the day he joined I was convinced his brand of football and character would not be a good fit, and that seemed to be proved right, but he seems an honest enough person when discussing players and regarding Shaw, Martial, Pogba and others, he was 100% correct.
Jose had his faults, and from the day he joined I was convinced his brand of football and character would not be a good fit, and that seemed to be proved right, but he seems an honest enough person when discussing players and regarding Shaw, Martial, Pogba and others, he was 100% correct.
Jose was right about a player he himself bought in Pogba.
He was wrong about wanting Maguire.
He was wrong about signing Lukaku.
Mkhitarayan was a waste and instantly sold by him.
Bailly was wrong. Lindelof was wrong.
Doesn't matter if you get a few things right if you get so much crap wrong.
He was wrong about wanting Maguire.
He was wrong about signing Lukaku.
Mkhitarayan was a waste and instantly sold by him.
Bailly was wrong. Lindelof was wrong.
Doesn't matter if you get a few things right if you get so much crap wrong.
And what was he wrong about? Go ahead and list them.
There was nothing wrong about Lukaku signing. The other options available this summer were Belotti and Morata. Lukaku was far better than both, either that or enter the season with both Rashford and Martial as strikers whom years later proved this would have been a disastrous decision.
Lukaku scored 27 goals this season and we later managed to sell him for over 80m to Inter. We didn't lose that much money and definitely got some good value from him when he was sold. Hardly a problematic signing.
Meanwhile good luck trying to cope half the fee we paid for Harry fecking Maguire for example.
Bailly, Lindelof and Mikhi were all signings that didn't cost that much, all were either very promising or had very good season before joining us. Neither of them have been a disaster for the team. Lindelof actually have been a regular starter under the manager who came after Mourinho so I don't even get how he's considered wrong now.
Lindelof has been easily our best defender in Ole's reign.
I don’t think Mourinho was necessarily right about Martial. Martial was playing some of his best football of his career when he sidelined him completely for the Sanchez flop. That harmed Martial’s development but also made United weaker at the time, it’s over 4 years ago now, so just talking about then. Martial then had a great season and a half at United after that and we got a few years of CL football. We certainly weren’t as bad as we are now.
I think he did an ok job. So best take your argument to somebody else at the CAF
Exactly this...
Folks and the Opening poster ignores the fact that it was Jose more so than any other that created the toxic atmosphere at the club.
He empowered player egos, the type of player he invested in like Pogba, Mikha, Sanchez, Zlatan and Rom all had massive egos and have cost us dearly.
This is before we address the fact that our wage doubled under his 2 year reign.
Ole's tenure saw the wage be slashed in half and whilst we are lumped with a bunch more duds it hasn't and won't be as damaging.
What?
Mourinho wanted to offload Martial and replace him with Perisic but any idea of a move was blocked by Woodward and Joel Glazer.
During the Pogba Mourinho spat the fans chose the player over manager. The meltdown by these players' fanboys here was fascinating...if Jose had it his way Pogba would've been shown the door too.
Because of the board, the squad he inherited and our thick fanbase Jose was up against it from day one.
So Perisic would’ve been an improvement you think ? Just like all of Jose’s other signings, eh ? You do realize Pogba was one of those, correct ?
Cannot believe these threads. Jose was toxic, his whole style is to throw players under the bus. Was Martial lazy and not consistent enough, yes. But was Perisic going to make us better, no. Jose signed Pogba and then fell out with him. All Jose wanted was immediate success and players to fit his blueprint. He couldnt develop players. Shoudl never have been at OT. SIr Bobby was right on that front. End of discussion.
He wanted to buy Maguire for 60 million his last season, so he would have saved us 20 million and left us with the same problem.
He also signed Bailly and Lindelof for a combined 70 million, neither of whom have worked out.
Not to mention destroying Martial with Sanchez when he was playing his best football.
That’s not to say he wasn’t wrong about certain members of the team, but he didn’t help this problem, he only added to it by shitting on people in public.
Did bring us our last trophies and highest point total since SAF so can’t knock that.
To be fair pogba was a professional at juve. Only here he started all his antics.
Guess we never really get his heart
Jose was right or wrong i don't know as we didn't hire good manager after him but he was by far the biggest problem at the club and the most toxic one we ever had
He got a lot of things right but went about it the wrong way.
He also got a lot of things wrong.
He was never the answer here.
He also got a lot of things wrong.
He was never the answer here.
Why has this descended into emotional outbursts against Jose? The question is whether Jose was right about the players not whether we were wrong about him.
We're all grown ups I'm sure you can seperate the two without feeling like you've let Jose off the hook.
He was right about their attitudes, simple as that.
We're all grown ups I'm sure you can seperate the two without feeling like you've let Jose off the hook.
He was right about their attitudes, simple as that.
The squad he inherited or the one he built? His biggest problem was Pogba and he was the one who signed him after failing to sign him for Chelsea.
There is no right or wrong in picking Pogba or Jose, Jose was worse choice to pick in that battle, it's not as if he won something or is managing top clubs. So many clubs changed managers when Jose was available, none of them touched him.
It's the usual Jose fan boys moaning, he is sacked at ManUtd and already sacked at other club too. Maybe his fanboys should move on.
Oh and if Jose had his way, we would have had even shit squad with full of aged players on shit loads on money. Welcome Danny Rose, Toby, Boateng, Willian, Dier and few others.
Because saying "a player has bad attitude", and "Jose was right about player" come with completely different sets of implications.
Him being right at all is also massively revisionistic. Shaw played best season of his life after Jose left and as was said multiple times he was the one that wanted Pogba here in the first place.
No one said he was a saint. He made his own mistakes. Buying Maguire would have been a mistake by him as well.
Bailly and Lindelof were worth the shot. Neither costed that much and both were promising talents. These can work or not, and Bailly were pretty damn good in his early time here. Beside, it amuses me that people keep saying Lindelof didn't work when he has been a starter for us for close to 4 years now and has been easily our best defender during Ole's reign. We got pretty decent value from Lindelof.
Sanchez was a huge mistake indeed.
Thinking about replacing Martial wasn't a mistake on its own though. Martial would have never been good enough in a title winning team and it was obvious from the start but his fans wouldn't listen. I bet some really believed the Ballon d'or clause in his contract.
And ironically enough, Martial has never performed for Mourinho as bad as his performance these last 2 seasons which ended up with him in his current shitty loan - which has also been a disaster - . Martial destroyed himself ultimately. His lack of desire to improve killed him.
I remember back then some were comparing Mourinho falling with Martial and Pogba to him falling with Hazard and that Chelsea took the right decision to prefer Hazard over Mourinho. This was ridiculous, Hazard won POTY and led Chelsea to a league title the season prior. But it just shows how our fans massively overrated Martial's abilities.
Our players deserve to be shit on in public because they have been godawful and won nothing worthy to defend them for. Never got the idea about "throwing players under bus" which seems to be stuck only to Mourinho and Conte in particular. Ralf has been criticizing our players non stop in press conferences and interviews last few months and guess what, they deserve it.
Ole kept on praising our players in public and they still performed like shit and ultimately got him the sack so it's not like it means much for our lot. It's just our fans persistently treating our players like toddlers who need someone to babysit them and shield them from any bad words.
I prefer my manager to say the truth clear and loud in public rather than trying to cover it by licking the arses of the board and players in media thinking this will bring them on his side or something.
Mourinho wanted Pogba and defended him against the media and every single person who criticized him in his first 1.5 years. He did everything he could to shield him from criticism even though he was deserving it. Pogba didn't pay him off and ultimately Mourinho gave up on him. He didn't want to listen. He thought himself way too good.
Both don't contradict each other.
I am confused. So he was right and then he was wrong. Or was he wrong and then right...
This whole "Sanchez was a huge mistake" narrative needs to stop when discussing Mourinho.
There was not a single credible person out there who called it a bad idea to sign a player who had only a few months of bad form and many years of world class performances at that time. Besides, Mourinho even hinted that it wasn't his pick but just one that landed on his lap - whilst the rumours were circulating BEFORE he arrived.
There was not a single credible person out there who called it a bad idea to sign a player who had only a few months of bad form and many years of world class performances at that time. Besides, Mourinho even hinted that it wasn't his pick but just one that landed on his lap - whilst the rumours were circulating BEFORE he arrived.
Then that just shows how totally screwed the club recruitment was at the time. Ask any Arsenal fan and he was past it, his dip in form (for a year) was excused, rather than reflecting the fact that his legs had gone. Plus he always gave the ball away, but when you then took away his goal theat there was nothing left otehr than a liability. Then add on the crazy wages, stupid money that only unsettles the dressing room. Symptomatic of the rot at the heart of the club. No strategy, no plan, no coherence.
Signing Pogba back then was worth the shot and a correct decision by both the club and Mourinho. Cashing on him 3 years later would have also been the correct decision. Both don't contradict each other. When will people realize it's not black or white?
The problem is, he didn't do the actual managing part very well. It's one thing to have a right opinion, many laymen have that, it doesn't mean they're fit to turn things around. Does anyone disagree with Ralf? He's bang on the money and yet clearly incapable.
Being a manager is also knowing when to speak, which boats should be rocked, ensuring a positivity around a club. No top managers operate in doom and depression like Jose did. You also have to get one or two transfers right and he wasn't correct on that!
Being a manager is also knowing when to speak, which boats should be rocked, ensuring a positivity around a club. No top managers operate in doom and depression like Jose did. You also have to get one or two transfers right and he wasn't correct on that!
Last edited:
Yes, he was. Although he was definitely also not the cure for the problems he diagnosed.
So £90m and whatever stupid wages he was on, 'worth a shot'. Says it all. Muppets running the club and it seems muppet fans. When do people realise a robust recruitment strategy makes things a lot clearer and reduce such mistakes. Also if you avoid teh Woodward Galactico strategy then you are less likely to have such expensive flops.
The failure was collective at the club, and I'd say Mourinho was involved very little in it. I remember quite well the excitement at large about him coming, and the form dip was waved away very quickly.
Bloody hell.
I still can't help liking Jose, and I found the first season and a half of his tenure a lot more enjoyable than I was expecting it to be.
But the continued hankering after him by a large minority of United fans is just weird. It's hilarious when fans of other clubs get seduced by his self-serving patter, but when one's own are still in thrall to him over three years later it's just sad.
I suppose it's got something to do with fans needing a father figure to take the place of SAF. I don't remember a similar yearning post-Sir Matt.
I still can't help liking Jose, and I found the first season and a half of his tenure a lot more enjoyable than I was expecting it to be.
But the continued hankering after him by a large minority of United fans is just weird. It's hilarious when fans of other clubs get seduced by his self-serving patter, but when one's own are still in thrall to him over three years later it's just sad.
I suppose it's got something to do with fans needing a father figure to take the place of SAF. I don't remember a similar yearning post-Sir Matt.
Mourinho got his diagnosis right (Pogba, Martial, Rashford, Shaw are not reliable and the team lacks fight), but he offered toxic and wrong remedy (playing low block defensive football, asking us to sign Willian, Perisis, Alderwield, Maguire, etc).
Just like Marx made a great critique of capitalism but offered a toxic remedy (communism)
Just like Marx made a great critique of capitalism but offered a toxic remedy (communism)
Both irrelevant points though. Is it true that Shaw and Pogba have mentality issues? Yes it is.
See it's simple, all you're doing is extending into other arguments because of some need to criticise Jose. He isn't here reading them feeling vindicated. The point is as a fan base do we recognise actually these issues were there since the Jose period if not before.
We have some trying to do the same with Ragnick, ignoring his comments because of his managerial performance.
I hated LvG more than any other manager but I can say where he was right without having to point out his many misjudgements as balance.
The quality and acts of these managers matter little, they came with a lot of experience and they were able to spot issues we to this day still have. Only a fool ignores that.
This is just said in hindsight. It's easy to call the shots now because he failed with us but the reality is Pogba was one of the best midfielders in the world back then, was part of a CL finalist team and was chosen in World XI in Fifa awards. He was also only 23 years old, which means you are investing not just in one of the best midfielers in the world, but also in a long term project with a player who actually has even more room for further improvement and hadn't reached his full potential yet.
No brainer. 90m for such player is worth the deal.
Pogba was the hottest thing in the world back then.
It didn't work out alright. Doesn't mean the signing decision on its own was a mistake.
Spot on. For my part I was quite honestly as stoked as I could be about that signing at the time. Still, you could also expect management to have a much clearer and well-founded idea of how a certain player would fit into things than you or I or other fans could have, and would appear that whatever ideas they had about that weren't justified.
Going by what we've seen from Pogba, I wouldn't pinpoint mentality issues as the main concern - rather, he seems to be to be fundamentally ill-suited to the Premier League. He struggles with the pace of the game, the pressing, the intensity, the physicality. Probably that could have been less of a factor if he was put in a more optimal role relative to his characteristics than he largely has been at United, but it seems likely to me that his capacity to dominate in the PL was overestimated when he was brought in.
Why is this thread a thing. Everyone can make judgments on players. Mourinho fell out with certain players not because their ability, but because they mentality not meshing with Mourinho's. Mourinho himself just wasn't a good manager anymore though, as has been proven painfully obvious.
I think your reply epitomizes the challenge for fans over the last several seasons. The manager himself has always caused enormous division amongst the base for one of a number of reasons, be it his charisma or lack thereof, footballing philosophy that didn't align with the history of United, a mediocre to appalling resume, among others.
With that being the case, starting from Moyes' tenure, the criticism of the players has always been tempered or offset as a purely managerial issue. It has clouded the judgment that was most needed : Glazers and Ed Woodward were slowly poisoning the club with their choices, including being the cause of the continuing rise of player power.
Jose's comments were seen as histrionic amongst half of the United fans. Interestingly, every single non-United football supporter I've spoken to and an abundance of online outsider sentiment was that the core of what Jose was pointing out was correct, his means of communication terrible but expected because he's Jose, and that United were sitting with a bunch of bad apples with the Liverpool boy band trio the most usual comparison.
But most United fans couldn't see past the messengers distasteful persona.
Ironically the most despised of the post-SAF Manchester United managers, in descending order, matches our most successful trophy-winning seasons.
So then what of this thread? Perhaps it's a time to reflect on the content of the messages from these former managers, disassociating their qualifications for the job and any personal feelings for or against them. These managers saw the players day in and day out. Their literal observations can be taken without the pistake personal attacks.
Moyes:
Woodward screwed him over.
Player power begins, EW texting buddies with Rio and Wayne
LVG:
Commercial club
Missed transfers again because of EW
Player power - not being willing to do hw to become tactically adept, players not playing like they want sex (passion etc)
Jose:
no need to repeat the OP
Ole:
Saying early on that Half these players won't be here -- and then they were.
Remove all the managers names and just look at the feedback.
Fans have been blinded by their emotions. The warning signs have been there for almost a decade.
The club needs a reboot - new CEO, new recruiters, new academy folks, new first team squad , an actual dof. Basically all that has been brought to light and argued for years now.
Jose was right in the same way a broken clock is - he picked a few players to scapegoat and hammered those players, despite he himself bringing in some of our biggest problem players (Pogba, Lukaku, Sanchez).
His toxicity is a large part of why we're in the position we're in now, he was one of several failed managerial appointments that in hindsight (and even in foresight to plenty at the time) was a huge mistake.
Unfortunately it seems like the club needed things to get this low to put a modern football structure in place, rather than expecting the manager to also be a pseudo-DOF like Fergie was (and only he could be), along with Ed Woodward basically LARPing as Abramovich, sticking his nose into the football side far too much.
His toxicity is a large part of why we're in the position we're in now, he was one of several failed managerial appointments that in hindsight (and even in foresight to plenty at the time) was a huge mistake.
Unfortunately it seems like the club needed things to get this low to put a modern football structure in place, rather than expecting the manager to also be a pseudo-DOF like Fergie was (and only he could be), along with Ed Woodward basically LARPing as Abramovich, sticking his nose into the football side far too much.