What proof do you want? Digging up posts? What would be the purpose if you already said you don’t agree with that idea? I’m happy we both agree it wasn’t any achievement at all. That’s all that matters, really.
If you're claiming something, you're supposed to bring proof to support your claim. Otherwise I can invent anything out of my mind and then say "nah, I'm not arsed to dig up posts for people saying that". What does prevent me from doing that ?
Like, ironically enough, you claimed Mourinho's quote of "one of my best achievements" was about EL win while it was about the 2nd position in the league and you just ignored this point and moved on.
Certainly, I brought up that point but I already explained why I drew the parallel with Bayern and PSG. I can take the pains of repeating if you didn’t get it the first time: you said doing well in a competition where we face teams far worse in terms of budget, players quality and experience didn't mean we’re good in Europe (something I never said, I simply said it meant we’re neither awful nor absolutely shit in Europe).
After which I made a parallel with FCB and PSG which have vastly more resources (financial and otherwise) than all their league opposition and yet both are considered the best for beating their inferior local rivals. You play what’s in front of you. My point being, it’s wrong to call United an awful or absolutely shit team in Europe for regularly beating only inferior teams and having a draw with another inferior team at a European final. Get it now?
Do you realize that PSG have been mocked for the past several years for winning their league titles while being underwhelming in CL ? That they're always mocked for winning "farmers league" every time they fail in a CL campaign ? No one consider PSG winning their league title an achievement considering the big gap between them and their rivals, and whenever they bottle it in Europe, everyone makes fun of them.
And the argument doesn't work on Bayern, because even though they're indeed much stronger than their domestic competitors and winning their league isn't a big achievement nowadays, they're also a major force in Europe and are always playing in advanced stages in CL and were CL champions 3 years ago.
If Bayern dropped to EL from CL group and lost to Villareal in the final no one will consider this a a good European campaign, unlike what you're trying to force for a team of Man United caliber, whom are supposed to compete in Champions League, not playing regularly in 2nd tier European competition every year while not even being able to win it bar once, and lost the final to a far inferior team to them. Man United shouldn't be playing in Europe League, more importantly shouldn't be playing in it that regularly, the fact we're competing in it alone means we're awful. Dropping to it from CL group means we're godawful.
I don’t need to respond to this because I don’t quite understand why you’re trying to make it a Mourinho vs Ole debate. Ole has got nothing to do with this thread, nor with our discussion.
This isn't a Mourinho vs Ole debate. You said we lost the final only due to PKs as if we played a good game, deserved to win and were unlucky to lose. The reality is Villareal played the final with the plan to reach PKs, they had a plan and succeeded in it. Meanwhile we did nothing worthy to note in the 120 minutes, our tactical gameplay and subs were pretty bad and really deserved nothing out of this day. The team with the plan won, we had no plan to win this day and the fact this happened against a far inferior side to us in terms of quality and investment is more of a proof we're awful, rather than a proof we haven't been shit in Europe.
And you're the one who brought the Ajax final into this discussion from the start by the way. You're the one who decided to compare this EL campaign to the one Mourinho brought from the start, not anyone of us, you. Everything after that was me responding to you, and you won't have to "dig up posts", just return few pages back.
