Abortion

Frosty

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Excerpt from the dissenting judgment:




theguardian.com

Women now have ‘fewer rights than their mothers and grandmothers’: read three justices’ searing abortion dissent | Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan

After today, young women will come of age with fewer rights than their mothers and grandmothers had. The majority accomplishes that result without so much as considering how women have relied on the right to choose or what it means to take that right away. The majority’s refusal even to consider the life-altering consequences of reversing Roe and Casey is a stunning indictment of its decision.

One last consideration counsels against the majority’s ruling: the very controversy surrounding Roe and Casey. The majority accuses Casey of acting outside the bounds of the law to quell the conflict over abortion – of imposing an unprincipled “settlement” of the issue in an effort to end “national division”. But that is not what Casey did. As shown above, Casey applied traditional principles of stare decisis – which the majority today ignores – in reaffirming Roe. Casey carefully assessed changed circumstances (none) and reliance interests (profound). It considered every aspect of how Roe’s framework operated. It adhered to the law in its analysis, and it reached the conclusion that the law required. True enough that Casey took notice of the “national controversy” about abortion: the court knew in 1992, as it did in 1973, that abortion was a “divisive issue”. But Casey’s reason for acknowledging public conflict was the exact opposite of what the majority insinuates. Casey addressed the national controversy in order to emphasize how important it was, in that case of all cases, for the Court to stick to the law. Would that today’s majority had done likewise.

Consider how the majority itself summarizes this aspect of Casey:
“The American people’s belief in the rule of law would be shaken if they lost respect for this Court as an institution that decides important cases based on principle, not ‘social and political pressures.’ There is a special danger that the public will perceive a decision as having been made for unprincipled reasons when the court overrules a controversial ‘watershed’ decision, such as Roe. A decision overruling Roe would be perceived as having been made ‘under fire’ and as a ‘surrender to political pressure.’”
That seems to us a good description. And it seems to us right. The majority responds (if we understand it correctly): well, yes, but we have to apply the law. To which Casey would have said: That is exactly the point. Here, more than anywhere, the court needs to apply the law – particularly the law of stare decisis. Here, we know that citizens will continue to contest the court’s decision, because “[m]en and women of good conscience” deeply disagree about abortion. When that contestation takes place – but when there is no legal basis for reversing course – the court needs to be steadfast, to stand its ground. That is what the rule of law requires. And that is what respect for this court depends on.

“The promise of constancy, once given” in so charged an environment, Casey explained, “binds its maker for as long as” the “understanding of the issue has not changed so fundamentally as to render the commitment obsolete.” A breach of that promise is “nothing less than a breach of faith.” “[A]nd no court that broke its faith with the people could sensibly expect credit for principle.” No court breaking its faith in that way would deserve credit for principle. As one of Casey’s authors wrote in another case, “Our legitimacy requires, above all, that we adhere to stare decisis” in “sensitive political contexts” where “partisan controversy abounds.”

Justice Jackson once called a decision he dissented from a “loaded weapon,” ready to hand for improper uses. We fear that today’s decision, departing from stare decisis for no legitimate reason, is its own loaded weapon. Weakening stare decisis threatens to upend bedrock legal doctrines, far beyond any single decision. Weakening stare decisis creates profound legal instability. And as Casey recognized, weakening stare decisis in a hotly contested case like this one calls into question this court’s commitment to legal principle. It makes the court appear not restrained but aggressive, not modest but grasping. In all those ways, today’s decision takes aim, we fear, at the rule of law.

“Power, not reason, is the new currency of this court’s decision-making.” Roe has stood for 50 years. Casey, a precedent about precedent specifically confirming Roe, has stood for 30. And the doctrine of stare decisis – a critical element of the rule of law – stands foursquare behind their continued existence. The right those decisions established and preserved is embedded in our constitutional law, both originating in and leading to other rights protecting bodily integrity, personal autonomy, and family relationships. The abortion right is also embedded in the lives of women – shaping their expectations, influencing their choices about relationships and work, supporting (as all reproductive rights do) their social and economic equality. Since the right’s recognition (and affirmation), nothing has changed to support what the majority does today. Neither law nor facts nor attitudes have provided any new reasons to reach a different result than Roe and Casey did. All that has changed is this court.

Mississippi – and other states too – knew exactly what they were doing in ginning up new legal challenges to Roe and Casey. The 15-week ban at issue here was enacted in 2018. Other states quickly followed: between 2019 and 2021, eight States banned abortion procedures after six to eight weeks of pregnancy, and three states enacted all-out bans. Mississippi itself decided in 2019 that it had not gone far enough: The year after enacting the law under review, the state passed a six-week restriction. A state senator who championed both Mississippi laws said the obvious out loud. “[A] lot of people thought,” he explained, that “finally, we have” a conservative court “and so now would be a good time to start testing the limits of Roe”. In its petition for certiorari, the state had exercised a smidgen of restraint. It had urged the court merely to roll back Roe and Casey, specifically assuring the court that “the questions presented in this petition do not require the court to overturn” those precedents. But as Mississippi grew ever more confident in its prospects, it resolved to go all in. It urged the court to overrule Roe and Casey. Nothing but everything would be enough.

Earlier this Term, this court signaled that Mississippi’s stratagem would succeed. Texas was one of the fistful of states to have recently banned abortions after six weeks of pregnancy. It added to that “flagrantly unconstitutional” restriction an unprecedented scheme to “evade judicial scrutiny.” And five justices acceded to that cynical maneuver. They let Texas defy this court’s constitutional rulings, nullifying Roe and Casey ahead of schedule in the Nation’s second largest state.

And now the other shoe drops, courtesy of that same five-person majority. (We believe that the chief justice’s opinion is wrong too, but no one should think that there is not a large difference between upholding a 15-week ban on the grounds he does and allowing states to prohibit abortion from the time of conception.) Now a new and bare majority of this court – acting at practically the first moment possible – overrules Roe and Casey. It converts a series of dissenting opinions expressing antipathy toward Roe and Casey into a decision greenlighting even total abortion bans. It eliminates a 50-year-old constitutional right that safeguards women’s freedom and equal station. It breaches a core rule-of-law principle, designed to promote constancy in the law. In doing all of that, it places in jeopardy other rights, from contraception to same-sex intimacy and marriage. And finally, it undermines the court’s legitimacy.

Casey itself made the last point in explaining why it would not overrule Roe – though some members of its majority might not have joined Roe in the first instance. Just as we did here, Casey explained the importance of stare decisis; the inappositeness of West Coast Hotel and Brown; the absence of any “changed circumstances” (or other reason) justifying the reversal of precedent. “[T]he court,” Casey explained, “could not pretend” that overruling Roe had any “justification beyond a present doctrinal disposition to come out differently from the court of 1973.” And to overrule for that reason? Quoting Justice Stewart, Casey explained that to do so – to reverse prior law “upon a ground no firmer than a change in [the court’s] membership” – would invite the view that “this institution is little different from the two political branches of the Government.” No view, Casey thought, could do “more lasting injury to this court and to the system of law which it is our abiding mission to serve.” For overruling Roe, Casey concluded, the court would pay a “terrible price”.

The Justices who wrote those words – O’Connor, Kennedy, and Souter – they were judges of wisdom. They would not have won any contests for the kind of ideological purity some court watchers want justices to deliver. But if there were awards for justices who left this court better than they found it? And who for that reason left this country better? And the rule of law stronger? Sign those justices up.

They knew that “the legitimacy of the court [is] earned over time.” They also would have recognized that it can be destroyed much more quickly. They worked hard to avert that outcome in Casey. The American public, they thought, should never conclude that its constitutional protections hung by a thread – that a new majority, adhering to a new “doctrinal school,” could “by dint of numbers” alone expunge their rights. It is hard – no, it is impossible – to conclude that anything else has happened

here. One of us once said that “t is not often in the law that so few have so quickly changed so much.” For all of us, in our time on this court, that has never been more true than today. In overruling Roe and Casey, this court betrays its guiding principles.

With sorrow – for this court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection – we dissent.
  • This has been excerpted from the US supreme court’s minority opinion in Dobbs v Jackson Women’s Health Organization. It has been edited to remove some legal citations
 

Eendracht maakt macht

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Republicans are cnuts. The Democrats are useless. This country is beyond saving and that’s scary for democracy in the West.
 

ooeat0meoo

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Thanks to FOX we might actually have some Americans who call themselves ANTIFA now, but when they started on it there was no US ANTIFA. It’s just a catch all they use for anyone protesting on the left.
You don't seem to know the history of anti-fascists. They've been around for a long long time, but most people don't know what they are or who they are.

Anti fascism is almost synonymous with Anarchism. 1920 was the 'Wall Street Bombing' carried out by Italian anarchists.
Nowadays, Anti-Fascists are far-left individuals and small private groups that don't seek out publicity (in most cases) that protest around issues and not so much with an organized agenda. There is a history of some groups in the northwest Portland, Seattle, and San Francisco that have a very contentious history with police, that have been known to get violent. Although most other cities AntiFa are generally counter-protesters that are non-violent until provoked. There are exceptions to this, as DC groups can cause what they call, 'Smashy Smashy' incidents, such as during the Trump Inauguration in 2017.

I was a journalist in DC and covered 100's of types of protests.

Anyhow, Fox News is pretty much setting things up to get violent with these misleading reports. It's almost as if they're daring the far-left to do something, while also triggering the far-right with the AntiFa dog whistle.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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To Americans… wasn’t this a constitutional right?
Conservatives have long argued it should never have been considered a constitutional right and that the arguments that lead to an inferred "right to privacy" which Roe v Wade was based on is unconstitutional. That's why Thomas leaned into potentially striking down things like right to contraception access, same-sex marriage, etc, because all those verdicts were also based on the inferred right to privacy. The right to privacy was inferred from taking collectively the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 9th and 14th Amendments.

it's long been a conservative argument that no right to privacy can be inferred from those other amendments, since they don't like what that means (that government can;t regulate based on their Christian/racist/etc moral systems. That is what Thomas is signaling and what has a lot of legal observers scared about the years to come because basically the entire string of "socially liberal" SCOTUS rulings from the last 50 years rely in some part on the right to privacy interpretation. Without it, you could even have conservative states/counties/cities outlawing sodomy again (with all the implications that come with it).

That's why this is really a bigger deal than even the pro-choice activists typically mention and it really, really begs for liberals to start doing what they should have done 30,40,50 years ago and started building infrastructure the way the conservatives did with the Federalist Society.
 
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calodo2003

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Republicans are stupid, democrats are evil. That's the general adage, and is pretty damn accurate.
If democrats are evil, then republicans are evil cubed (or whatever word is a magnitude of order more evil than ‘evil’).

Republicans showcase a DNA of evilness & cruelty. Democrats aren’t even in the same time zone.
 

RedDevilQuebecois

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What a cnut.

Anyway, feck SCOTUS for this. That Supreme Court is now no different than the shit joke that any banana republic has of a judiciary body. I would rather burn a church down to the ground than making more women suffer out there.
 

Strootman's Finger

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If democrats are evil, then republicans are evil cubed (or whatever word is a magnitude of order more evil than ‘evil’).

Republicans showcase a DNA of evilness & cruelty. Democrats aren’t even in the same time zone.
I am not getting involved in political debates on this site, especially with people who clearly don't know how their own country works. And I am no fan of republicans, at all, I am just an honest observer from the outside.
 
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Behind the right goal post as "Whiteside shoots!"
Conservatives have long argued it should never have been considered a constitutional right and that the arguments that lead to an inferred "right to privacy" which Roe v Wade was based on is unconstitutional. That's why Thomas leaned into potentially striking down things like right to contraception access, same-sex marriage, etc, because all those verdicts were also based on the inferred right to privacy. The right to privacy was inferred from taking collectively the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 9th and 14th Amendments.

it's long been a conservative argument that no right to privacy can be inferred from those other amendments, since they don't like what that means (that government can;t regulate based on their Christian/racist/etc moral systems. That is what Thomas is signaling and what has a lot of legal observers scared about the years to come because basically the entire string of "socially liberal" SCOTUS rulings from the last 50 years rely in some part on the right to privacy interpretation. Without it, you could even have conservative states/counties/cities outlawing sodomy again (with all the implications that come with it).

That's why this is really a bigger deal than even the pro-choice activists typically mention and it really, really begs for liberals to start doing what they should have done 30,40,50 years ago and started building infrastructure the way the conservatives did with the Federalist Society.
Shame they can't see that 30 men grabbing a musket 200+ years ago, doesn't give teenagers today the right to semi automatic rifles and hundreds of rounds of ammunition.
 

Beans

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You don't seem to know the history of anti-fascists. They've been around for a long long time, but most people don't know what they are or who they are.

Anti fascism is almost synonymous with Anarchism. 1920 was the 'Wall Street Bombing' carried out by Italian anarchists.
Nowadays, Anti-Fascists are far-left individuals and small private groups that don't seek out publicity (in most cases) that protest around issues and not so much with an organized agenda. There is a history of some groups in the northwest Portland, Seattle, and San Francisco that have a very contentious history with police, that have been known to get violent. Although most other cities AntiFa are generally counter-protesters that are non-violent until provoked. There are exceptions to this, as DC groups can cause what they call, 'Smashy Smashy' incidents, such as during the Trump Inauguration in 2017.

I was a journalist in DC and covered 100's of types of protests.

Anyhow, Fox News is pretty much setting things up to get violent with these misleading reports. It's almost as if they're daring the far-left to do something, while also triggering the far-right with the AntiFa dog whistle.
I’m not aware of the term ANTIFA being used for those groups, but I’ve spent time looking into anarchism and libertarianism which deals with the same issues.

When the term was used by FOX, I looked it up on wiki and said it was a political movement in Europe that hadn’t been working in the US. But this was a while ago, and since then I’ve seen Americans self identify as ANTIFA.
 

nimic

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To Americans… wasn’t this a constitutional right?
This is exactly what makes the US constitution and its relationship to the Supreme Court so bad. It's up to the 9 people on the Supreme Court (who were all put there for partisan reasons by whatever party was in power when their predecessor happened to retire or die) to decide what the intent of the founding fathers was with the Constitution. Because obviously it says nothing about abortion, nothing about modern weapons, nothing about internet surveillance, etc. They get to decide. And if you happen to get three picks in your term, like Trump did, suddenly everything changes. Biden and the Dems in Congress can win 70% of the vote next election, and it still wouldn't alter the fact that those three people are going to be there for decades to come, deciding. In a democracy.

It's just a bad system. It might well have made perfect sense in the 18th century, but since then other countries have figured out better and more up-to-date ways of doing things.

Edit: I'm not an American, I'm just upset like one.
 

Suv666

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How are the Democrats evil but the Republicans aren't? Please be as specific as you can.
Ahh shit here we go again ...
Get ready for a shitstorm of racism sexism and every ism in the book. Also complains about woke and pc gone mad
 

Strootman's Finger

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People on here never fail to surprise me.
I didn't write it, it's a popular idiom, one that was generally accepted up until the line was drawn in the sand and everyone had to chose a side. Now people defend their sides at all costs and no one looks at the bad of their own side.
 

WI_Red

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I didn't write it, it's a popular idiom, one that was generally accepted up until the line was drawn in the sand and everyone had to chose a side. Now people defend their sides at all costs and no one looks at the bad of their own side.
Popular idiom where? I have lived in California, Alabama, Wisconsin, and North Carolina. I have family and friends from all portions of the political spectrum and I have never heard this once.
 

calodo2003

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I didn't write it, it's a popular idiom, one that was generally accepted up until the line was drawn in the sand and everyone had to chose a side. Now people defend their sides at all costs and no one looks at the bad of their own side.
Popular idiom where? Post a link please.
 

calodo2003

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Nobody should pay that cesspit any attention at all. The "leader of democracy" label might have been true once, I don't know, but it hasn't been at any point in my lifetime.
We’ve completely shit the bed as bad as Spud did in Trainspotting.
 

Dr. Dwayne

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I didn't write it, it's a popular idiom, one that was generally accepted up until the line was drawn in the sand and everyone had to chose a side. Now people defend their sides at all costs and no one looks at the bad of their own side.
Never heard of it and I've been a defacto American since the early 80s.
 

nimic

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I didn't write it, it's a popular idiom, one that was generally accepted up until the line was drawn in the sand and everyone had to chose a side. Now people defend their sides at all costs and no one looks at the bad of their own side.
It gets four hits on Google. They are as follows:

1. A post on /r/Anarcho_Capitalism on Reddit
2. A blog post on the blog "Red Meat Conservative"
3. A comment on a post on the "DennisMichaelLynch" site, made by a right-wing hack with obvious delusions of grandeur who definitely wrote his own Wikipedia page.
4. A post on the "Occidental Dissent" website, an overtly racist and white supremacist site which uses a scene from The Handmaid's Tale as a background and has the title "Nationalism, Populism, Dissent" (aka Nazi scum).
 

Sparky Rhiwabon

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Obviously abortion shouldn’t be banned but here’s another angle on it - I see lots of people saying things like “it should be the woman's choice, no one else’s“. But, what about the poor dad-to-be? Don’t they get a choice either way?
 

Frosty

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Obviously abortion shouldn’t be banned but here’s another angle on it - I see lots of people saying things like “it should be the woman's choice, no one else’s“. But, what about the poor dad-to-be? Don’t they get a choice either way?
No.

Unless we want to start giving people the power to override the wishes of a competent, adult patient.

We would view it as unreasonable (to say the least) for a woman to have the power to make her partner get a sterilisation, for example.
 

Dr. Dwayne

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Obviously abortion shouldn’t be banned but here’s another angle on it - I see lots of people saying things like “it should be the woman's choice, no one else’s“. But, what about the poor dad-to-be? Don’t they get a choice either way?
It's not their body being warped by the process of carrying a fetus to term, nor their life at risk if something goes wrong. They're welcome to their opinion but women's bodies, women's choices.
 

Blackwidow

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Obviously abortion shouldn’t be banned but here’s another angle on it - I see lots of people saying things like “it should be the woman's choice, no one else’s“. But, what about the poor dad-to-be? Don’t they get a choice either way?
Why should he have? Does he carry the baby - is it his body?
Life just tells you that at the end in most of the cases the poor dad-to-be can be out of it (often without paying child support) and the mom-to-be has all the disadvantages in job, money, life.