Gianni Infantino loses the plot (WC 2002 Edition)

Frosty

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I am from a country occupied by a European colonial power. We destroyed nothing. We were neutral in the second war, occupied in the first.

In case there is a language problem, the point was that by the logic in the post I was answering is that that nobody is permitted to give a toss because of some heinous actions 100 years ago in the same geographic location. As if the world wars have any relevance to my objection to human rights abuses.

I didn't say what you are accusing me of in any way shape or form. I said it was an irrelevance to this discussion. But if that's the best line of argument you can come up with then plough on.
Underplaying it I think. Our Government literally played the different communities against each other and used bespoke propaganda to get as many Irish into the BEF as possible. Much like we did across the Empire to be honest.

Anyway if this thread is teaching us anything it is that it is possible to hold two points of view at once.

The UK should pay reparations for slavery and the empire.

Qatar has a shocking record on human rights and should never have been given the World Cup.
 

moses

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Underplaying it I think. Our Government literally played the different communities against each other and used bespoke propaganda to get as many Irish into the BEF as possible. Much like we did across the Empire to be honest.

Anyway if this thread is teaching us anything it is that it is possible to hold two points of view at once.

The UK should pay reparations for slavery and the empire.

Qatar has a shocking record on human rights and should never have been given the World Cup.
Indeed. Ireland's neutrality is a whole surreal and complicated discussion of it's own.

I agree on Qatar.
 

Polar

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What a stupid f… he is, Gianni Infantino.

Let him continue to hunt votes from undemocratic countries and let’s forget FIFA. European football don’t need FIFA.
 

TheReligion

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As long as the British Empire and the American government don't pay reparations for the millions of lives they destroyed through colonialism and slavery, I plug my ear when they or their citizens stand on their moral soapbox about other cultures.
What a stupid post
 

moses

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What a stupid post
Yep, to hold citizens accountable for their government is insane, especially from previous generations. We protest against our own governments more than anything else. To remove freedom of opinion from an individual because of government policies from the past is absurd and leaves no room for moving forward. The logical conclusion of this thinking is a cesspit of negativity and horror.
 

He'sRaldo

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As long as the British Empire and the American government don't pay reparations for the millions of lives they destroyed through colonialism and slavery, I plug my ear when they or their citizens stand on their moral soapbox about other cultures.
My experience as someone with a decent amount of multicultural exposure is that, without sufficient first hand experience it's difficult for people to actually understand the sentiment in another location.

You see people holding these staunch viewpoints of other places without ever setting foot in the area to get a feel for the general sentiment. That's how human nature has always been. A few decades of progress doesn't mean the average human is any different to hundreds of years ago. We're all still just following the general trend of our times, which we've always done in the past. Right now thankfully it's a positive trend in the West, at least with regards to human rights, but we still have the human characteristics that make us repeat our past mistakes.
 

Stactix

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Right lads,

If I ever go on trial my defence will be whataboutism.

Judge how dare you threaten to put me in jail when there are 1000s of criminals walking free out there.. some have done what I've done dozens of times! Some are famous. I know theres plenty of evidence of me doing these things butt whattt about them!

Until all cases from decades ago have been solved, you cannot judge me.

.... see how fecking stupid you whataboutists sound?
 

NewGlory

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Europe has no right to dictate to other people how to bend their culture to allow some silly world cup. You destroyed the world with two World Wars. We are still reeling from the devastating effects of those wars and you are concerned about flying rainbow flags and drinking alcohol in a very strict Muslim nation. You call it a world cup but when it goes to the Middle East, arms in the air. The hypocrisy of the west is perpetuated by its citizens and it's very sad to see.
1. Being a homophobic bigot is not a fecking culture.
2. "You granfather's grandfather was a bad dude" is not a fecking argument. Children do not answer for the sins of their ancestors. That is an absolutely moronic thing to say. You do not get to choose who you are born to and therefore are not responsible for it - simple as that. Plenty of people don't even agree with their parents, let alone distant ancestor.
3. Have you looked at your own ancestors? Singling Europe or Britain out as if it were the only "bad dude". ARE YOU feckING KIDDING ME? Humans were savages and everybody was doing atrocious things. So what now? We can never have any morals or decency, ever again?

You are just showing who you are NOW, by peddling this bullshit "logic" about past while excusing the crap Qatar does now.

Also, for feck's sake, nobody asked Qatar to host a World Cup! They bribed people to steal it. Nobody even wanted it to be there. So when you insist you have to host a World Cup, you don't also get to then go "oh and by the way, we have shit beliefs as a culture here and you have to deal with it". No, sir, stay in your lane then and don't try to host a World Cup if you want to be horrible.
 
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TheReligion

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Yep, to hold citizens accountable for their government is insane, especially from previous generations. We protest against our own governments more than anything else. To remove freedom of opinion from an individual because of government policies from the past is absurd and leaves no room for moving forward. The logical conclusion of this thinking is a cesspit of negativity and horror.
Couldn’t agree more.
 

Stack

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Yep, to hold citizens accountable for their government is insane, especially from previous generations. We protest against our own governments more than anything else. To remove freedom of opinion from an individual because of government policies from the past is absurd and leaves no room for moving forward. The logical conclusion of this thinking is a cesspit of negativity and horror.
I live in a country where the damage caused by past govts to one group of people is still having devastating effects and its clear to see the causes. There are attempts to fix those past wrongs and we are seeing the good coming from those attempts.
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
I live in a country where the damage caused by past govts to one group of people is still having devastating effects and its clear to see the causes. There are attempts to fix those past wrongs and we are seeing the good coming from those attempts.
Exactly, we all have to strive to do better, history is among many things, a catalogue of evil.
 
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Europe has no right to dictate to other people how to bend their culture to allow some silly world cup. You destroyed the world with two World Wars. We are still reeling from the devastating effects of those wars and you are concerned about flying rainbow flags and drinking alcohol in a very strict Muslim nation. You call it a world cup but when it goes to the Middle East, arms in the air. The hypocrisy of the west is perpetuated by its citizens and it's very sad to see.
Bit much to blame “Europe” for the world wars… especially the second one. Maybe one or two European countries but not the entire continent?
 

RedDevilMachine

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1. Being a homophobic bigot is not a fecking culture.
2. "You granfather's grandfather was a bad dude" is not a fecking argument. Children do not answer for the sins of their ancestors. That is an absolutely moronic thing to say. You do not get to choose who you are born to and therefore are not responsible for it - simple as that. Plenty of people don't even agree with their parents, let alone distant ancestor.
3. Have you looked at your own ancestors? Singling Europe or Britain out as if it were the only "bad dude". ARE YOU feckING KIDDING ME? Humans were savages and everybody was doing atrocious things. So what now? We can never have any morals or decency, ever again?

You are just showing who you are NOW, by peddling this bullshit "logic" about past while excusing the crap Qatar does now.

Also, for feck's sake, nobody asked Qatar to host a World Cup! They bribed people to steal it. Nobody even wanted it to be there. So when you insist you have to host a World Cup, you don't also get to then go "oh and by the way, we have shit beliefs as a culture here and you have to deal with it". No, sir, stay in your lane then and don't try to host a World Cup if you want to be horrible.
Another one of those virtue signaling woke crowd. I hope you're one of those who never watch the World Cup but knowing arm chair critics, you will still watch it.
 

therealtboy

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Thank God the football starts today, those who don’t want to watch should boycott it and protest. It’s not just about weaponizing virtue and displaying outrage, you should not watch or participate in it at all. Don’t just spout words, put action behind it. Boycott it. Don’t visit Qatar, don’t visit UAE. No Dubai trips for the family. Stand your ground.
 

Josep Dowling

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1. Being a homophobic bigot is not a fecking culture.
2. "You granfather's grandfather was a bad dude" is not a fecking argument. Children do not answer for the sins of their ancestors. That is an absolutely moronic thing to say. You do not get to choose who you are born to and therefore are not responsible for it - simple as that. Plenty of people don't even agree with their parents, let alone distant ancestor.
3. Have you looked at your own ancestors? Singling Europe or Britain out as if it were the only "bad dude". ARE YOU feckING KIDDING ME? Humans were savages and everybody was doing atrocious things. So what now? We can never have any morals or decency, ever again?

You are just showing who you are NOW, by peddling this bullshit "logic" about past while excusing the crap Qatar does now.

Also, for feck's sake, nobody asked Qatar to host a World Cup! They bribed people to steal it. Nobody even wanted it to be there. So when you insist you have to host a World Cup, you don't also get to then go "oh and by the way, we have shit beliefs as a culture here and you have to deal with it". No, sir, stay in your lane then and don't try to host a World Cup if you want to be horrible.
Great response!
 

africanspur

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And the Muslim countries are well within their right to ensure their religion and belief systems come before anything. Why should they change to please the western world?
They are 100% well within their rights to do so. Not many are asking them to change and before being handed this WC, I imagine most people would even be able to place Qatar on a map, let alone care enough about them to tell them to change.

The flip side is of course that nobody asked them or forced them to host a global tournament, where people from all countries, cultures, beliefs etc will be attending. If they wanted to host a tournament of only generally like-minded people, there is the Arab Cup. They also promised to act a certain way and, now empowered, have rowed back on many of their initial agreements.

This conversation I have to say is fraught with difficulties for me. Qatar is an awful location for a world cup. For so many reasons, not least of which are the terrible worker conditions, their constantly shifting goalposts etc. Some of the defence of them have come from exactly the same people I would have expected and who sadly often come to the defence whenever a Muslim country is criticised.

Yet despite this, there definitely is an Islamophobic undercurrent to some peoples' comments (often those who have a similar undercurrent anyway in some of their other posts on here). There is also the (to me anyway) slightly erroneous feeling some on here have that the World Cup is a gift from the West/Europe to bestow upon other countries, which of course it is not. Finally, whataboutism has become an over-used phrase to deflect from even valid criticisms of hypocrisy. To me, it means not even bothering to respond to a question but deflecting it with another entirely. However, some on here for instance are pointing out that Qatar was a terrible choice and shouldn't have received it, whilst still pointing out that the USA will 100% not receive anything like the same amount of criticism. A country that, even putting aside its foreign adventures, has some incredibly....peculiar domestic policies.

Nuances which are difficult to discuss online, where people seem to feel the need to get entrenched and either make up crap about Qatar or jumping to comments about how the Brits can't say anything because of their country's past or who only talk about how crap Russia/USA WCs are/will be without acknowledging the issues of this one.
 

Oluwaplumpie

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What a stupid f… he is, Gianni Infantino.

Let him continue to hunt votes from undemocratic countries and let’s forget FIFA. European football don’t need FIFA.
Yea... U guys don't.

U don't need anyone for anything.
 

lysglimt

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Infantino, the former ginger, doesn't care about anybody, he is a just a rich official protecting the people who pay him a lot of money.

If he has to compare getting bullied in high school(for being a ginger) to migrants dying while building stadiums, he will...and he literally did.
Worshipping money can make people say stupid stuff, so they can keep the money grab.

That bald fecker isn't different than Blatter after all.
He is actually worse than Blatter - because he was elected to fix the mess Blatter and his predecessors had created. Noone really knew how bad it was when Blatter was elected - everyone knew it was rotten to the care when Incompetento was elected - and he actually made it worse.
 

lysglimt

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They are 100% well within their rights to do so. Not many are asking them to change and before being handed this WC, I imagine most people would even be able to place Qatar on a map, let alone care enough about them to tell them to change.

The flip side is of course that nobody asked them or forced them to host a global tournament, where people from all countries, cultures, beliefs etc will be attending. If they wanted to host a tournament of only generally like-minded people, there is the Arab Cup. They also promised to act a certain way and, now empowered, have rowed back on many of their initial agreements.

This conversation I have to say is fraught with difficulties for me. Qatar is an awful location for a world cup. For so many reasons, not least of which are the terrible worker conditions, their constantly shifting goalposts etc. Some of the defence of them have come from exactly the same people I would have expected and who sadly often come to the defence whenever a Muslim country is criticised.

Yet despite this, there definitely is an Islamophobic undercurrent to some peoples' comments (often those who have a similar undercurrent anyway in some of their other posts on here). There is also the (to me anyway) slightly erroneous feeling some on here have that the World Cup is a gift from the West/Europe to bestow upon other countries, which of course it is not. Finally, whataboutism has become an over-used phrase to deflect from even valid criticisms of hypocrisy. To me, it means not even bothering to respond to a question but deflecting it with another entirely. However, some on here for instance are pointing out that Qatar was a terrible choice and shouldn't have received it, whilst still pointing out that the USA will 100% not receive anything like the same amount of criticism. A country that, even putting aside its foreign adventures, has some incredibly....peculiar domestic policies.

Nuances which are difficult to discuss online, where people seem to feel the need to get entrenched and either make up crap about Qatar or jumping to comments about how the Brits can't say anything because of their country's past or who only talk about how crap Russia/USA WCs are/will be without acknowledging the issues of this one.
So you don't see any problems with a country hosting a world cup where being gay could be a capital offence ? The Norwegian FIFA-representative Lise Klaveness is gay - if she brings her partner (If she has one) - she could be committing a capital offence. Same if 2 gay players do the same during the world cup.

So you don't see a problem with a country who got the world cup under certain conditions (for instance Budweiser being a main sponsor of the world cup expecting to sell their product) - and then 2 days before the competition starts, change the rules for alcohol-consumption because it's within their rights ? If they had said this x numbers of years ago - I would agree with you. But I can promise you this was never mentioned then because if it was, Budweiser would have pulled out as sponsor. So this is not well within their rights - this is a breach of contract.
 

africanspur

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So you don't see any problems with a country hosting a world cup where being gay could be a capital offence ? The Norwegian FIFA-representative Lise Klaveness is gay - if she brings her partner (If she has one) - she could be committing a capital offence. Same if 2 gay players do the same during the world cup.

So you don't see a problem with a country who got the world cup under certain conditions (for instance Budweiser being a main sponsor of the world cup expecting to sell their product) - and then 2 days before the competition starts, change the rules for alcohol-consumption because it's within their rights ? If they had said this x numbers of years ago - I would agree with you. But I can promise you this was never mentioned then because if it was, Budweiser would have pulled out as sponsor. So this is not well within their rights - this is a breach of contract.
Incredible that you've read my post and come to that conclusion and fits nicely with what I said at the very end about how people are approaching this conversation.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Yet despite this, there definitely is an Islamophobic undercurrent to some peoples' comments (often those who have a similar undercurrent anyway in some of their other posts on here).
I agree. It would be very naive to deny it. However, on the same note I can't help but point out that there is a similar undercurrent to certain other comments: I have a hard time not suspecting that some posters on here find it easy to ignore particular aspects of Qatari "culture" in these debates because...they actually don't have a problem with them in the first place.

However, some on here for instance are pointing out that Qatar was a terrible choice and shouldn't have received it, whilst still pointing out that the USA will 100% not receive anything like the same amount of criticism. A country that, even putting aside its foreign adventures, has some incredibly....peculiar domestic policies.
Yeah, no doubt.

But then again there's a clear tendency to lump everything and everyone together, pretending that the same people who are vocally against Qatar hosting it are perfectly happy with the USA as a host on every level.

Plus - the effect of whataboutery (whatever the intention of the individual poster) is distraction. It takes attention away from the matter at hand. Qatar is here and now, it's only natural that people focus on it (and not on the next World Cup): sure, we can suspect that some of the people who are busy criticizing it (Qatar) here and now will not be equally vocal about the shortcomings of the next host. Focusing on this in the present discussion is still...whataboutery.
 

Zlatattack

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I'm really enjoying the white privilege driven melt down. Everyone HAS to follow your rules because YOU know best.

When Westerners decide someone with a penis can use the ladies loos because that's how they identify suddenly that becomes okay too.

The icing on the cake is the selective application of morality too.

Buying Qatari gas is OK. Qatar owning half of London is fine. Selling them advanced weaponry is OK - but no beer in the WC stadium for peasants is the hill to die on.

Similarly most Westerners, including and especially the celebrity wokeratti, will holiday in Dubai - a city built on slave labour and dead labourers. Nobody remembers that because in Dubai you can get your tits out and have a drink. The only person discriminated against in Dubai is the Asian migrant worker - and all us wealthy Asians still go holiday in Dubai, so why shouldnt you? Also I forgot to mention that like London and Switzerland, Dubai is a global money laundering hub - but that doesn't matter if you have money.

Shout out to the biggest petrol pump of them all. Saudi Arabia - bombing Yemeni Civilians since 2015 but again - thier oil and money is OK, they host concerts and boxing matches.

On top of it all there is the direct support for discrimination and oppression through the support of dictators like Sisi in Eygpt and the hybrid regime in Pakistan. These countries have Western backed governments that have turned lives into hell for anyone who wants basic political freedom - fully supported and funded by the Western governments. Yet we see crocodile tears for homosexuals in Qatar.

There is actually a "country" in the middle east who's human rights record is akin to the Nazis. It has limitless political and financial support from the Western governments. It faces no sanctions. Attempts to boycott it have been banned in some countries. It has been embraced by Uefa (funny that)... Can you guess who it is?

You can be gay in this country, you can drink beer on the streets, sunbathe on the beach - what you can't do is be Palestinian.
 

Abizzz

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I'm really enjoying the white privilege driven melt down. Everyone HAS to follow your rules because YOU know best.

When Westerners decide someone with a penis can use the ladies loos because that's how they identify suddenly that becomes okay too.

The icing on the cake is the selective application of morality too.

Buying Qatari gas is OK. Qatar owning half of London is fine. Selling them advanced weaponry is OK - but no beer in the WC stadium for peasants is the hill to die on.

Similarly most Westerners, including and especially the celebrity wokeratti, will holiday in Dubai - a city built on slave labour and dead labourers. Nobody remembers that because in Dubai you can get your tits out and have a drink. The only person discriminated against in Dubai is the Asian migrant worker - and all us wealthy Asians still go holiday in Dubai, so why shouldnt you? Also I forgot to mention that like London and Switzerland, Dubai is a global money laundering hub - but that doesn't matter if you have money.

Shout out to the biggest petrol pump of them all. Saudi Arabia - bombing Yemeni Civilians since 2015 but again - thier oil and money is OK, they host concerts and boxing matches.

On top of it all there is the direct support for discrimination and oppression through the support of dictators like Sisi in Eygpt and the hybrid regime in Pakistan. These countries have Western backed governments that have turned lives into hell for anyone who wants basic political freedom - fully supported and funded by the Western governments. Yet we see crocodile tears for homosexuals in Qatar.

There is actually a "country" in the middle east who's human rights record is akin to the Nazis. It has limitless political and financial support from the Western governments. It faces no sanctions. Attempts to boycott it have been banned in some countries. It has been embraced by Uefa (funny that)... Can you guess who it is?

You can be gay in this country, you can drink beer on the streets, sunbathe on the beach - what you can't do is be Palestinian.
Also that one ginger once stole my 2b pencil in school. How come gingers still complaining? Hypocrites.
 

stw2022

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I'm really enjoying the white privilege driven melt down. Everyone HAS to follow your rules because YOU know best.

When Westerners decide someone with a penis can use the ladies loos because that's how they identify suddenly that becomes okay too.

The icing on the cake is the selective application of morality too.

Buying Qatari gas is OK. Qatar owning half of London is fine. Selling them advanced weaponry is OK - but no beer in the WC stadium for peasants is the hill to die on.

Similarly most Westerners, including and especially the celebrity wokeratti, will holiday in Dubai - a city built on slave labour and dead labourers. Nobody remembers that because in Dubai you can get your tits out and have a drink. The only person discriminated against in Dubai is the Asian migrant worker - and all us wealthy Asians still go holiday in Dubai, so why shouldnt you? Also I forgot to mention that like London and Switzerland, Dubai is a global money laundering hub - but that doesn't matter if you have money.

Shout out to the biggest petrol pump of them all. Saudi Arabia - bombing Yemeni Civilians since 2015 but again - thier oil and money is OK, they host concerts and boxing matches.

On top of it all there is the direct support for discrimination and oppression through the support of dictators like Sisi in Eygpt and the hybrid regime in Pakistan. These countries have Western backed governments that have turned lives into hell for anyone who wants basic political freedom - fully supported and funded by the Western governments. Yet we see crocodile tears for homosexuals in Qatar.

There is actually a "country" in the middle east who's human rights record is akin to the Nazis. It has limitless political and financial support from the Western governments. It faces no sanctions. Attempts to boycott it have been banned in some countries. It has been embraced by Uefa (funny that)... Can you guess who it is?

You can be gay in this country, you can drink beer on the streets, sunbathe on the beach - what you can't do is be Palestinian.

Wasn't apartheid simply local culture and rules that should have been respected that the West should never have campaigned to end because of its support of Israel?

Or do you think that moral stance was okay. Just judging where your moral stance and conviction to 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones' goes.

Girls in education Afghanistan? You cite Israel as reason why this shouldn't be an issue anyone outside of Afghanistan has any right to object to?

Just trying to think of how many human rights abuses you'll defend simply by pointing out other human rights abuses exist

What about the persecuted Muslim population in China? Presumably you think that's way down the list of priorities and Westerners need to stop lecturing the Chinese? White people lecturing the Chinese over this issue is pure hypocrisy that presumably you'll object to.
 
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UweBein

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.......

Read about the East India company (a British company) and how it cut off workers fingers in the fabric industry - all for profit. fecking hypocrisy as far as I’m concerned and some of you are oblivious. We have absolutely no right to adopt the moral high ground.
Your post is very good, just this point.
While it was vile that kind of treatment was not unheard of in Europe. In these times you could have been mutilitated just because someone was venting their anger.
 

crossy1686

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As long as the British Empire and the American government don't pay reparations for the millions of lives they destroyed through colonialism and slavery, I plug my ear when they or their citizens stand on their moral soapbox about other cultures.
And how much would that cost exactly? What would the repercussions be for 'paying out' everyone that was ever affected by a nations terrible doings? You think inflation is bad now? Let's roll with your idea and completely disregard the economical collapse that would happen.

I mean, why stop there? The Spanish wiped out an entire race of Mayan's who were happily minding their own business, what do we do for those? Dig 'em up, clone 'em and give them a million each. There you go lads, sorry about that but it's all fixed now.

Here lies the inherent problem with ignorance. Some nations have done atrocious things in the name of religion, freedom and just for the hell of it. Since then, some have reformed and are trying to lead the way in regards to what is morally correct. But what's the point eh? Let's idly sit by and continue to watch Qatar cull it's gay population because at some point, the country where I happened to be born in did something horrific so therefore I'm not allowed to say that discrimination is bad.
 

TheReligion

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I'm really enjoying the white privilege driven melt down. Everyone HAS to follow your rules because YOU know best.

When Westerners decide someone with a penis can use the ladies loos because that's how they identify suddenly that becomes okay too.

The icing on the cake is the selective application of morality too.

Buying Qatari gas is OK. Qatar owning half of London is fine. Selling them advanced weaponry is OK - but no beer in the WC stadium for peasants is the hill to die on.

Similarly most Westerners, including and especially the celebrity wokeratti, will holiday in Dubai - a city built on slave labour and dead labourers. Nobody remembers that because in Dubai you can get your tits out and have a drink. The only person discriminated against in Dubai is the Asian migrant worker - and all us wealthy Asians still go holiday in Dubai, so why shouldnt you? Also I forgot to mention that like London and Switzerland, Dubai is a global money laundering hub - but that doesn't matter if you have money.

Shout out to the biggest petrol pump of them all. Saudi Arabia - bombing Yemeni Civilians since 2015 but again - thier oil and money is OK, they host concerts and boxing matches.

On top of it all there is the direct support for discrimination and oppression through the support of dictators like Sisi in Eygpt and the hybrid regime in Pakistan. These countries have Western backed governments that have turned lives into hell for anyone who wants basic political freedom - fully supported and funded by the Western governments. Yet we see crocodile tears for homosexuals in Qatar.

There is actually a "country" in the middle east who's human rights record is akin to the Nazis. It has limitless political and financial support from the Western governments. It faces no sanctions. Attempts to boycott it have been banned in some countries. It has been embraced by Uefa (funny that)... Can you guess who it is?

You can be gay in this country, you can drink beer on the streets, sunbathe on the beach - what you can't do is be Palestinian.
Another stupid post
 

TheReligion

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How dare you intervene when your neighbour is beating his wife whilst you sit doing nothing about the climate emergency we face.
Yeah the Caf really does harbour some deep rooted bigotry it seems.

This World Cup is highlighting it even more.

The point scoring and whataboutery is in quite bad taste I feel too.