Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

[moses]

I said a lot of things in my post, try addressing all of them rather than throwing your toys out of the pram. Whilst you're at it, try answering some of the questions I posed. That might help. Please also leave out words like 'ignorance', there's nothing I referenced that I'm ignorant about. Again, try not to get emotional in a message board discussion.

I'm not emotional at all. And that accusation is the tactic of someone with no substance to their argument.

You don't make the rules for people arguing with you, and while it may be inconvenient for you if they focus on the obvious nonsense you post, that's how it works.

 

[Tarrou]

False. People respond in that way because certain atrocities get talked about all the time and other, arguably worse atrocities never get talked about (or if they are talked about, the key perpetrators of those atrocities never get held to account by the media) for very nefarious reasons. It's not about 'defending' any particular wrongdoing, it's about exhorting people to 'keep that same energy' across the board. Otherwise what are we doing?

I've seen reports of 6,500 workers dying in Qatar. A tragedy. But dozens of Western corporations do business with them because they're oil rich. That's OK apparently. A million Iraqis died in the war for oil but there's no issue holding the World Cup in the UK or the US. Why? Because it's OK to kill a million people outside your borders but not 6,500 within them?

It's OK to hold the World Cup in Russia but Qatar is where we draw the line? I guess Russia's sort of in Europe so that was OK at the time? Brazil was another comtroversial choice due to human rights issues. But it's the home of football so that's OK? The competition was previously awarded to Argentina when it was under a military junta, and thousands of dissidents were literally killed as the tournament was going on. Let that sink in.....

I just want to know who is coming to this with clean hands and the right to lecture others. That's all. Football is corrupt. The world is corrupt. From top to bottom. If you're going to be logically consistent, you basically shouldn't watch football at all, and peg it as a convenient distraction from the real things that are going on in the world

this is total horseshit

people have every right to criticise things based on what they think is right and wrong and the country their parents happened to feck in is not relevant to anything in a sane world

 

[Abizzz]

we have people asking where is the islamaphobia , when here is a perfect example. Honour killings are a cultural/geographical issue rather than a religious one, why is this issue tied to Muslims only?

How is it islamophobic to say that the honor killings some muslims have committed aren't the fault of all muslims? Please expand?

 

[Gehrman]

this is total horseshit

people have every right to criticise things based on what they think is right and wrong and the country their parents happened to feck in is not relevant to anything in a sane world

This 100%

 

[2mufc0]

How is it islamophobic to say that the honor killings some muslims have committed aren't the fault of all muslims? Please expand?

I mean that fact you don't even realise it shows how entrenched it has become and I'm not surprised.

And as I've already explained the whole Muslim and honour killing thing is a typical stereotype/trope.

 

[Roane]

I'm really struggling with the whole "whataboutery" concept.

I get it that for example, Britain has a past involving empire. Me saying it's what happened at the time, as in most nations/countries were at it, isn't condoning or even accepting it as right. Neither is it purposeful to bring it up now with regards to Qatar. Nor would it be right if a nation now tried it and Britain condemned it.

However an Israeli journo saying something now about people who live be there's right isnt whataboutery if I say oh yeah you've got room to talk.

I couldn't give a feck about Qatar generally.

That said I personally question who bribed who with this WC farce. As I've said I am an immigrant into the UK. Why this is important is I get news from other media rather than just BBC or British newspapers. I'm certainly not saying the alternative is correct or even me but the portrayal of bribery here is clearly aimed at Qatar. Yet in other countries (who hate Qatar) the bribery is aimed at FIFA and subsequently "the west".

Let me explain. Qatar is disliked by it's neighbours. Specifically because they have bases which were used to attack Syria and Iraq and are blamed for the Arab Spring, or helping and supporting it.

As "friends" of the west it was no surprise to many (again not saying they are right) that they got the bid and subsequently been changing things and getting what they want. Even getting govt support from countries, see the whole respecting cultures from our own govt and silence.

I don't think it's whataboutery to bring this up, obviously I expect to be shot down for having a view of folk disagree with it but it isn't whataboutery imo.

 

[Andrade]

For me a lot of it is that those thousands of foreign workers died specifically to build those stadiums for the world cup. Its like a modern version of building pyramids. With most of the other countries their wrong doings had nothing to do with WC in general.

You could argue that distinction. However, the figure of worker deaths I quoted refers to people that perished in the 10 years since Qatar was announced as the host. And when Qatar was announced as the host, you'll recall that there was plenty of human rights related controversy then, before
much of the construction even started. So it's really about the conception of Qatar being a 'bad' country rather than the specific stadium related deaths, i think. My point is that it has been awarded to many 'bad' countries before (including Western ones: what is a 'bad' country after all?), and I wonder if there is anti-Arab sentiment that subconsciously underpins the discourse. Of course, many of the people dying are South Asian, so I recognise the lack of agency of those benighted economic migrants v the filthy rich Qataris. But why are that minority wealthy? Here's where it gets complicated.

I just bristle at the West lecturing non-Western nations about human rights when the West is behind most of the injustices in the world, hence the massive disparity in living standards in the West v nearly everywhere else. It's no coincidence for me that a lot of the most criticised non-Western nations are those that have some kind of power and/or agency (e.g. China) that threatens Western hegemony, which we've been taught should be the natural order of things. I can't expect people on here to see things from the perspective I'm outlining but there you go.

 

[Roane]

How is it islamophobic to say that the honor killings some muslims have committed aren't the fault of all muslims? Please expand?

Honour killings is not a Muslim thing it's an everybody thing. And it's dispicable.

The very terminology is islamophobic at worst and inflammatory at best.

I'm Muslim and I kill my wife if she has an affair "honour killing"

You, I don't know for sure but if you allow me, as an atheist kill your wife and it's jealousy at best.

Edit: some of the cases I've read about over the years under the honour killing headline in UK have been non Muslims, majority in fact. So a Sikh or a Hindu may have killed a family member but the focus always become muslims.

 

[Drizzle]

Slightly dissapointed neither of you used the anti semitism angle yet.

What? Only one person has done that, and that's you, chief.

 

[Andrade]

I'm not emotional at all. And that accusation is the tactic of someone with no substance to their argument.

You don't make the rules for people arguing with you, and while it may be inconvenient for you if they focus on the obvious nonsense you post, that's how it works.

Right, I can clearly ignore you because you're incapable of adult discussion. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Roane]

For those who may have been to or lived in that part of the world can I ask why Qatar has become such a focus?

What I mean is I've been to Saudi (for Hajj) and my passport was taken away. A cousin of my dad's and a neighbour from where I was born spent years working in Dubai and had similar, no complaints though. And it's accepted as it's been the case for years

Add to that the fact that we have had a GP in Abu Dhabi, MMA events in Dubai, concerts in Saudi Arabia, Boxing, Cricket etc but no uproar

 

[Abizzz]

I mean that fact you don't even realise it shows how entrenched it has become and I'm not surprised.

And as I've already explained the whole Muslim and honour killing thing is a typical stereotype/trope.

Honour killings is not a Muslim thing it's an everybody thing. And it's dispicable.

The very terminology is islamophobic at worst and inflammatory at best.

I'm Muslim and I kill my wife if she has an affair "honour killing"

You, I don't know for sure but if you allow me, as an atheist kill your wife and it's jealousy at best.

So is genocide a western thing? Can't we talk about genocide by western countries because its not a western thing, others done it too? I mean common...

(I mean it doesn't even matter one iota to my argument, you just saw a term you don't like and reacted like the "snowflakes" that a lot of people that defend this world cup constantly ridicule).

 

[2mufc0]

For those who may have been to or lived in that part of the world can I ask why Qatar has become such a focus?

What I mean is I've been to Saudi (for Hajj) and my passport was taken away. A cousin of my dad's and a neighbour from where I was born spent years working in Dubai and had similar, no complaints though.

Add to that the fact that we have had a GP in Abu Dhabi, MMA events in Dubai, concerts in Saudi Arabia, Boxing, Cricket etc but no uproar

I would say the world cup is much much larger event than all those events, even combined.

One thing good that has come out of the spotlight is they have stopped the whole confiscating passports BS.

 

[2mufc0]

So is genocide a western thing? Can't we talk about genocide by western countries because its not a western thing, others done it too? I mean common...

Don't think I've ever said that genocides have been committed by Eastern cointries/empires too.

You can talk about honour killings all you want but to falsely attribute it as a Muslim stereotype is discriminatory.

 

[Andrade]

this is total horseshit

people have every right to criticise things based on what they think is right and wrong and the country their parents happened to feck in is not relevant to anything in a sane world

Please answer the questions I posed. Does the UK have the moral right to lecture Qatar on human rights? Does the UK have clean hands?

 

[Gehrman]

You could argue that distinction. However, the figure of worker deaths I quoted refers to people that perished in the 10 years since Qatar was announced as the host. And when Qatar was announced as the host, you'll recall that there was plenty of human rights related controversy then, before
much of the construction even started. So it's really about the conception of Qatar being a 'bad' country rather than the specific stadium related deaths, i think. My point is that it has been awarded to many 'bad' countries before (including Western ones: what is a 'bad' country after all?), and I wonder if there is anti-Arab sentiment that subconsciously underpins the discourse. Of course, many of the people dying are South Asian, so I recognise the lack of agency of those benighted economic migrants v the filthy rich Qataris. But why are that minority wealthy? Here's where it gets complicated.

I just bristle at the West lecturing non-Western nations about human rights when the West is behind most of the injustices in the world, hence the massive disparity in living standards in the West v nearly everywhere else. It's no coincidence for me that a lot of the most criticised non-Western nations are those that have some kind of power and/or agency (e.g. China) that threatens Western hegemony, which we've been taught should be the natural order of things. I can't expect people on here to see things from the perspective I'm outlining but there you go.

Well bristle all you want. I'm from Denmark and I'll say whatever I want to about Qatar. And Denmark does have a far better human rights record though not perfect. But also I'm an individual. I have nothing to do with whatever shenanigans other Danes may have been up to or doing now.

 

[Andrade]

Well bristle all you want. I'm from Denmark and I'll say whatever I want to about Qatar.

I will bristle, thanks very much.

 

[IhabX7]

Fans of the state of Israel are few. We have threads here discussing it.

So nobody in Israel is allowed a voice?

By your logic we must assume you are from an amazing society with no injustice and an impeccable government considering how much you have to say on moral issues?

Where is this blemish free land from which you come?

If they do not stand against occupation and apartheid in their own state, then yes, they should not be allowed a voice and deserve ridicule if they attempt it. What's hard to comprehend about that? How on earth are you gonna lecture some other people about human rights, even when the Qatari regime is despicable, when you support Israel?

 

[JustAGuest]

I just bristle at the West lecturing non-Western nations about human rights when the West is behind most of the injustices in the world, hence the massive disparity in living standards in the West v nearly everywhere else. It's no coincidence for me that a lot of the most criticised non-Western nations are those that have some kind of power and/or agency (e.g. China) that threatens Western hegemony, which we've been taught should be the natural order of things. I can't expect people on here to see things from the perspective I'm outlining but there you go.

That's fine if you apply it to those who are actually responsible and in power of those things. What about your average person from a Western country - should they be allowed to voice their criticism without it being dismissed as hypocrisy?

 

[Abizzz]

Don't think I've ever said that genocides have been committed by Eastern cointries/empires too.

You can talk about honour killings all you want but to be to falsely attribute it as a Muslim stereotype is discriminatory.

I did not attribute it as a muslim stereotype. Why did you pick that one and not terrorism? Is that one alright as muslim stereotype?

I simply listed unethical behavior and said that people are not responsible for said unethical behavior if they didn't commit it. The rest happened in your head.

 

[duffer]

Please answer the questions I posed. Does the UK have the moral right to lecture Qatar on human rights? Does the UK have clean hands?

The UK government? I'd say not.

A person from the UK? Sure, depends on what they've done in their life. Same goes for the Qatari government and people from Qatar of course.

 

[dumbo]

False. People respond in that way because certain atrocities get talked about all the time and other, arguably worse atrocities never get talked about (or if they are talked about, the key perpetrators of those atrocities never get held to account by the media) for very nefarious reasons. It's not about 'defending' any particular wrongdoing, it's about exhorting people to 'keep that same energy' across the board. Otherwise what are we doing?

I've seen reports of 6,500 workers dying in Qatar. A tragedy. But dozens of Western corporations do business with them because they're oil rich. That's OK apparently. A million Iraqis died in the war for oil but there's no issue holding the World Cup in the UK or the US. Why? Because it's OK to kill a million people outside your borders but not 6,500 within them?

It's OK to hold the World Cup in Russia but Qatar is where we draw the line? I guess Russia's sort of in Europe so that was OK at the time? Brazil was another comtroversial choice due to human rights issues. But it's the home of football so that's OK? The competition was previously awarded to Argentina when it was under a military junta, and thousands of dissidents were literally killed as the tournament was going on. Let that sink in.....

I just want to know who is coming to this with clean hands and the right to lecture others. That's all. Football is corrupt. The world is corrupt. From top to bottom. If you're going to be logically consistent, you basically shouldn't watch football at all, and peg it as a convenient distraction from the real things that are going on in the world

Well that is complete rubbish. Football doesn't belong to brutal, oppressive regimes, or to greedy, amoral corporations, or with corrupt governing bodies. If we are talking moral consistency then there is plently of football that exists entirely free from any reasonable moral objections. I was just watching my nephew play football around the house, where is the corruption here?

The world is full of corruption and to differing degrees and scale depending on where it occurs. There is hypocrisy and double standards but that is no argument for moral nihilism and turning a blind eye to suffering and cruelty.

Moral standards and objections are always going to be on a scale. Just because I might have gone over the speed limit slightly and increased the risk of hurting someone by a fraction that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to criticise or attempt to prevent someone who is trying to commit a rape or murder in my vicinity.

Russia, Israel, Uk, US etc. are all worthy of criticism but let's keep the criticism to the abuses carried out by Qatar in the Qatar boycott thread shall we. Surely that makes sense

We don't need to compare how clean each others' hands are before granting the ability to speak out against the morally objectionable.

This should be fecking simple.

 

[phelans shorts]

For those who may have been to or lived in that part of the world can I ask why Qatar has become such a focus?

What I mean is I've been to Saudi (for Hajj) and my passport was taken away. A cousin of my dad's and a neighbour from where I was born spent years working in Dubai and had similar, no complaints though. And it's accepted as it's been the case for years

Add to that the fact that we have had a GP in Abu Dhabi, MMA events in Dubai, concerts in Saudi Arabia, Boxing, Cricket etc but no uproar

In those fields there absolutely has been uproar, however they are all much smaller than a football World Cup so you won’t hear as much about it.

 

[The Firestarter]

Right, I can clearly ignore you because you're incapable of adult discussion. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Gehrman]

That's fine if you apply it to those who are actually responsible and in power of those things. What about your average person from a Western country - should they be allowed to voice their criticism without it being dismissed as hypocrisy?

Yeah the individual tends to get lost in these discussions.

 

[Roane]

I would say the world cup is much much larger event than all those events, even combined.

One thing good that has come out of the spotlight is they have stopped the whole confiscating passports BS.

Yeah I understand this changed in 2019. Just what I've read though so could be wrong.

The thing I find interesting is that a lot of this passport being left with employer or whomever is not just related to workers. It's basically an immigration policy.

I mentioned Saudi during Hajj. And it is something I have first hand experience of. What I will say is that you have a "group leader" who in my case was a guy from Blackburn. He has a link in Saudi (A Saudi agent if you will). The Blackburn guy organises tours this end, the agent sorts things out that end. What I found was the guy this end would say "it's the Saudis" when issues such as accomodation or transport whilst there came up and most people accepted it.

I was with my father and we "lost" our luggage. Dad had his money in his suitcases and I didn't have enough for both to see us through the whole period we were there. I spoke to the "group leader" and he gave me a story about how Saudis didn't allow this and that. I made a fuss and got to see the agent. I found it disconcerting because the agent wouldnt speak to you directly. However he got me a day pass and I was able to get the luggage from the airport storage. I learnt that this was absolutely allowed by the agents and it was the group leaders who were the cnuts.

Anyway a few other people had issues too and and were a bit emboldened by what they had seen with me and contacted the agent. Most of the party told us to leave it and not cause trouble thinking the agent going to cause issues. But no the agent was fine. Subsequently this guy from Blackburn was not allowed to conduct tours.

Bar the speaking directly bit I didn't have a problem with the Saudis.

I'm also aware that similar group leaders in India, Pakistan etc are the ones who take advantage of the workers but like Hajj majority never complain.

 

[Roane]

In those fields there absolutely has been uproar, however they are all much smaller than a football World Cup so you won’t hear as much about it.

I have tbh I haven't heard or seen this. I don't mean just this forum by the way. In a wider context as in media, social media and forums.

 

[Pintu]

The UK government? I'd say not.

A person from the UK? Sure, depends on what they've done in their life. Same goes for the Qatari government and people from Qatar of course.

What if that person from the UK supported Tony Blair's reelection bid and supported his "London 2012 Olympics" while some of the soldiers he sent to invade Iraq were torturing Iraqi children or raping them?

 

[lefty_jakobz]

What? Only one person has done that, and that's you, chief.

Where?

 

[duffer]

What if that person from the UK supported Tony Blair's reelection bid and supported his "London 2012 Olympics" while some of the soldiers he sent to invade Iraq were torturing Iraqi children or raping them?

I don't remember that being part of Tony Blair's re-election manifesto so I'd say sure.

Thankfully, the MP I've voted for in every election since I was 18 has lost (and I picked the losing side in the Brexit referendum) so I aint taking any blame for anything any UK government has done.

 

[Spoony]

I don't remember that being part of Tony Blair's re-election bid so I'd say sure.

Thankfully, the MP I've voted for in every election has lost (and I picked the losing side in the Brexit referendum) so I aint taking any blame for anything any UK goverment has done.

Yeah but you're a Tory...and you deserve all the abusive PMs you're about to get.

 

[Andrade]

That's fine if you apply it to those who are actually responsible and in power of those things. What about your average person from a Western country - should they be allowed to voice their criticism without it being dismissed as hypocrisy?

A good question. The problem is that even the average person in a Western nation is in am extremely privileged position compared to billions of other people, thanks to the often brutal and cynical actions of Western governments (for centuries). It may not feel like it if you live in Bury and you can't pay your bills but that's infinitely preferable to not having clean drinking water.

When I make the point about 'clean hands', it is more about governments and authorities and media than it is about the average person, of course. But if an average person says "I think the migrant deaths are terrible" (an obviously moral statement) and someone else goes "what about this?", I think it's fair to say "that's also terrible and i was less aware of that" rather than screaming "WHATABOUTERY!!!!"

Because the reason people say 'what about this?' is because the media strongly highlights certain atrocities and ignores others. For nefarious reasons IMO

 

[moses]

If they do not stand against occupation and apartheid in their own state, then yes, they should not be allowed a voice and deserve ridicule if they attempt it. What's hard to comprehend about that? How on earth are you gonna lecture some other people about human rights, even when the Qatari regime is despicable, when you support Israel?

Yet some do, isn't in a bit dangerous to make assumptions? And even more dangerous to silence them based on your assumptions?

The idea that a voice from Sweden is more worthy than a voice from Israel is bizarre. Swedes has Neo Nazis and Israel has pro Arab sections. The world is a bit more complicated than you are allowing for.

 

[duffer]

Yeah but you're a Tory...and you deserve all the abusive PMs you're about get.

Since I've been eligible to vote, I've never voted Tory but the Tory MP has won in every constituency I've voted in. Wasted votes since 1997!

 

[IhabX7]

Yet some do, isn't in a bit dangerous to make assumptions?

Where is the assumption that none do? Read that again.

 

[moses]

Where is the assumption that none do? Read that again.

It wasn't made by you, but it was the basis of this line of discussion.

 

[Drizzle]

Where?

You're literally the only person that mentioned it. No idea why you felt you needed to parachute into this clusterfeck of a thread with that completely unnecessary observation, but you do you.

 

[duffer]

Because the reason people say 'what about this?' is because the media strongly highlights certain atrocities and ignores others. For nefarious reasons IMO

That's not always why people engage in whataboutary. It's very often to avoid confronting something awkward by changing or massively widening the subject.

 

[Spoony]

Since I've been eligible to vote, I've never voted Tory but the Tory MP has won in every constituency I've voted in. Wasted votes since 1997!

We've had a Tory MP! I think Tory voters and right wing folk in general derserve a zero tolerance policy.

 

[duffer]

We've had a Tory MP! I think Tory voters and right wing folk in general derserve a zero tolerance policy.

I think right now is the first time in over 100 years that we technically don't have a Tory MP where I am. And that's only because the Tory party booted him out recently for sexually assualting someone in a bar and he's an "independant".