Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

[Giggsyking]

Is it not? Ok so the Qatari government says the proportion of migrant workers dying in their country is in fact lower than to a comparable amount of people from their home countries. But they are comparing them to the total populations of all age ranges in their home countries. Not just healthy men of working age. That is misleading, this article covers that.
https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-how-many-people-have-died-for-the-qatar-world-cup/a-63763713

No, the numbers I counted myself are based on the total of workers (not only 20-50 yrs), the reality is non qatari workers are not just constructions sites, they are doctors, nurses desk jobs etc etc and they are (20-70) years. So the numbers of 51 per 100k per year is one of the best in the world compared to developed countries.

Not sure on your stats of 100 per 100,000k in the UK as I don't have the time to check but I'll assume that's true. Then you have to take causes of those deaths into account. I believe (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) the 5 biggest causes of death for males aged 20-50 in the UK are Traffic accidents, Violence, Suicide, Drug use and Alcoholism. Do you imagine any of those causes of death are prevalent amount the Migrant worker populations in Qatar?

If you find the same stats for working men 20-50 per year in the UK that would be a fairer comparison.

I took into account all causes of deaths, the same goes to Qatar and it is exactly the same, the main two causes of death for that age group (20-40) is the same as the UK, road accidents and self harm. The main cause of death in the UK (40-50) is exactly the same in Qatar, IHD.

I am sorry, I cant explain more, but if you want to investigate the numbers yourself, just calculate and see what you get.

 

[MUnchies]

I understand and I'm agreeing.

Oh I see now

 

[MackRobinson]

The issue with whataboutism is that it derails the purpose and target of discussion, it’s a well known phenomenon and is a cheap loophole used (especially in moderated debate) to try and steer the focus onto another point; you’ve both participated in it in this thread.

The logical problem with the specific whataboutism that you’ve employed here (that we shouldn’t complain about qatar ‘because the West’), is that it creates your own noose in that when the US World Cup rolls around, if anyone complains about the US in any way, you’ll have to wade in with, ‘but qatar had a WC and look at their human rights records’, or, ‘but Russia had a WC, so why can’t America?’ - any failure to do so on your part will render you a hypocrite… and you’ve made so abundantly clear how much hypocrisy bothers you - indeed, that’s what you’re up in arms about in this thread, apparently.

The bolded is a strawman. You absolutely can complain about Qatar, and I have never said you shouldn't. Furthermore, I also agree that human rights abuses in Qatar are deplorable and wrong. However, I can also draw a separate conclusion that the attempt to boycott and delegitimize Qatar hosting the World Cup on the grounds of human rights violations is inconsistent, hypocritical, and most likely a result of Western elitism.

Agreeing that any human rights violations committed by Qatar are bad + bringing up another issue to highlight the hypocrisy != whataboutery

If you take issue with it, you should either a) explain why you think the conclusion drawn on that issue is incorrect or b) not respond. Attempting to shut down the discussion of tangential topics by doing the equivalent of yelling "That's not fair!" at the top of your lungs isn't constructive and thankfully nobody seems to be falling for it.

In fact, I’m surprised that you’re both not busy posting in CE how we mustn’t criticise Russia for invading the Ukraine when UK invaded Iraq, or how we mustn’t speak badly of police in America, when Middle Eastern law enforcers are worse.

It’s the same exact logic, so I trust that you’re both busy doing the above… unless of course those causes don’t motivate you to implement the same fervour you’ve reserved for derailing the conversation focussed on the misgivings of Qatar's corrupt regime…

Ironically the bolded is textbook derailing, but more importantly, it doesn't make much sense. Criticism for not posting in another thread, on another board is quite a weird take. I'm sure there's a point you're attempting to make, but it's completely lost on me.

 

[Fridge chutney]

And for those making fun of the whataboutism accusations, just read the last few (not that few) pages. Are we discussing qatar? Not anymore. Job done.

There's a reason people use, it's really effective.

Spot on again. Well said.

 

[shamans]

Seems like no one can call out hypocrisy or draw a parallel without some "whataboutism" label thrown right back.

 

[SmashedHombre]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

“I can stand human rights abuses.” - G. Neville.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Seems like no one can call out hypocrisy or draw a parallel without some "whataboutism" label thrown right back.

Simply not the case shamans. You’ve posted loads of stuff that directly questions figures and stats thrown out by Western media, that’s debate, you have an actual point, I may not agree with it but you’re not derailing the topic - you’re engaging on the topic.

Whataboutism is a thing, it’s well defined, and there’s been LOADS of it in this and the LGBT WC thread. Calling it out is the correct thing to do.

 

[AlPistacho]

They've improved on paper, but many have spoken out that it's frequently not enforced. They might not hold on to passports anymore, but still require employer permission to change jobs so it's still massively unfair. Also withholding pay is another cruel way that doesn't give the workers any choice, that works in a similar way to withholding their pasport. And those reforms were only implemented after a lot of the work had already been done anyway.



While that's true and a failure of the system, it's not by design like the zoning laws in Qatar that literally create ghettos that are cut off from the actual cities.



It's not false evidence just because it's not conclusive evidence. The information, individual anecdotes and the statistics they've gathered raise big questions that Qatar refuses to answer. And your example isn't really convincing in this context, because that's not really how it works in international relations. I think that's a very lazy defence personally. China refusing to let international observers inspect the Xianjang internment camps doesn't really exonerate them by saying "it's actually your job to gather accurate and real evidence to present a case".
There isn't freedom of press in either of these countries, so it's kind of hard to follow up and gather that evidence when doing so is actively resisted, by preventing access to these places or even arresting journalists asking too many questions.


I agree with that.

Only thing I really disagree with you on is “It's not false evidence just because it's not conclusive evidence.” (Assuming your referring to migrant deaths at work) I think the media knew exactly what they were doing and how they lied/misled about what those numbers represented.

 

[Rood]

Qataris Bristle at What They See as Double Standards Over Their World Cup
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/25/world/middleeast/qatar-world-cup-criticism.html?smid=url-share

Many in the country say the barrage of criticism about its human rights record and the exploitation of migrant workers is laced with discrimination and hypocrisy...

 

[stevoc]

No, the numbers I counted myself are based on the total of workers (not only 20-50 yrs), the reality is non qatari workers are not just constructions sites, they are doctors, nurses desk jobs etc etc and they are (20-70) years. So the numbers of 51 per 100k per year is one of the best in the world compared to developed countries.

Yes I can appreciate that but do you imagine the number of 55-70 year old migrant working in Qatar to be high?

I'm sure I've read more than once that construction workers make around 50% of the migrant workforce there. What percentage of the deaths occurred among that group, do you know?

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Qataris Bristle at What They See as Double Standards Over Their World Cup
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/25/world/middleeast/qatar-world-cup-criticism.html?smid=url-share

Many in the country say the barrage of criticism about its human rights record and the exploitation of migrant workers is laced with discrimination and hypocrisy...

Pay walled (for me at least), can anyone paste it to read properly?

 

[stevoc]

If it's something we don't know why are we so sure about it? All based on a gut feeling?

Second time you've asked me this mate, I've already provided links, reports, articles and videos to what my opinion is based on. I asked you the same question.

Money is not the only thing. China as money as well. Different countries mature and evolve socially at different rates. U.S or England are highly developed societies and that's not just due to the money but years of struggle and fighting for social justice.

You're gonna compare the countries with the most developed social justice systems to Qatar a country that got rich relatively very recently (90s) and expect it to be the same?

These things can't suddenly be forced they need time to develop and events like the world cup help towards that.

So yes I'm sure there are accurate accounts of poor labor practices but how is this conveniently ignored for every other country until the world cup is hosted in the middle east?

They've been rich since the 70's to be fair mate. I don't expect it to be the same, but not having the same healthy and safety standards as the west and some companies in Qatar making people work 70+ hour per week in 50c heat with little or no water are two very different things.

The talk about slaves really should raise red flags on some of the propaganda out there. While we are having these nuanced discussion the broader public opinion shaped by mass media is that Qatar has basically killed 10k migrants building their stadiums. How is that a fair reflection?

The severity of it matters. Having a "one death is too many" stance does not help and is not fair. Even in NYC workers have died building skyscrapers, but we have some of the best conditions for labor. Qatar is most likely not at that level but definitely not using "slave labor".

I linked you a video a few days ago with some accounts from workers in Qatar. If you watched it how did they describe how they were treated? And hey if you don't trust that video google others, there are more with similar accounts mate.

 

[stevoc]

What the DW article also fails to point out is a lot of rich/well to do Indian Pakistani Bangladeshis etc have moved to Qatar for jobs as well. These are not construction workers and have regular desk jobs. These can 40-70 year olds.

So no it's not all young folks. Either way, that's no way to draw conclusions from statistics. You either have them at hand or you don't. You cant say "they're probably healthy". You could then say they are labor workers from poor cities in Pakistan and probably have poor health in the first place.

So again where are solid statistics on immigrant deaths that Qatar is responsible for?

Do Qatar themselves know? Would they release that information if they did?

From what I understand migrant workers have to pass a range of medical checks to screen for health problems before they can get a Qatari work visa.

 

[Rood]

Pay walled (for me at least), can anyone paste it to read properly?

It's long with photos in the middle so an effort to cut paste but this is one part of it

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[shamans]

Second time you've asked me this mate, I've already provided links, reports, articles and videos to what my opinion is based on. I asked you the same question.



They've been rich since the 70's to be fair mate. I don't expect it to be the same, but not having the same healthy and safety standards as the west and some companies in Qatar making people work 70+ hour per week in 50c heat with little or no water are two very different things.



I linked you a video a few days ago with some accounts from workers in Qatar. If you watched it how did they describe how they were treated? And hey if you don't trust that video google others, there are more with similar accounts mate.

1) You ask me the same question and same reports don't make me believe there is some systemic brutality of labor workers to the point to boycott the world cup. I do agree there must have been working conditions inhumane from the luxury of our lives but unfortunately, that is the case for most of the world apart from west Europe and North America. You don't have to go too far, some of the working conditions of eastern European countries are pretty poor. In that sense, I don't believe Qatar were moving mountains to ensure the health of the workers (which they probably are now given the attention btw).

What I believe is that Qatar had a transactional relationship with migrant workers in its country. X job for Y pay -- accept or reject. Beyond that we'd go into the subject of capitalism and exploitation.

2) See this is where "middle east" gets painted with the same brush and people form preconceived notions. Qatar has not been rich since the 70s. Qatar just discovered natural gas (no, not oil) in the 90s and since the 2000's have been building their country. Compare this to say a UAE that has been pretty well built since the mid 90s and have continued on top of that, you obviously see a difference in social values. Back to my point, it takes time for countries to develop and just throwing a country a bag of cash will not make them jump start 100 years of social development. As I've made the point here many times before 1950s United States was not so long ago.

3) I don't take specific videos into account. You can easily find workers claiming the treatment has been glorious with no complaints. If I have a bias, which I do, the underlying facts that would convince me to think otherwise would be statistics that prove Qatar has systemically killed their migrant workers due to over exhaustion and used slave labor

The bold is a massive claim and if true, I would not be shameful enough to watch the world cup. Questions about labor treatment and inhumane practices should always be asked and criticized but the severity and extent of the issue matters.

 

[shamans]

Do Qatar themselves know? Would they release that information if they did?

From what I understand migrant workers have to pass a range of medical checks to screen for health problems before they can get a Qatari work visa.

1) Qatar does claim to have direct deaths related to stadium construction but of course they do not track indirect deaths caused from health complications. As I said before, some of these new money states may look fancy to you from their skylines but their social systems are not mature at all.

2) If they did know and it didn't reflect them positively? Yeah of course I believe they would bury that info somehow. Qatari government aren't saints and I doubt even the best of governments would advertise such information. That said, the total number of migrant deaths does not, to me, seem to indicate something completely out of the ordinary when it comes to working conditions.

 

[shamans]

Simply not the case shamans. You’ve posted loads of stuff that directly questions figures and stats thrown out by Western media, that’s debate, you have an actual point, I may not agree with it but you’re not derailing the topic - you’re engaging on the topic.

Whataboutism is a thing, it’s well defined, and there’s been LOADS of it in this and the LGBT WC thread. Calling it out is the correct thing to do.

The "no one" was wrong but, I'm not speaking for every example of anyone "derailing" the thread.

If you see common ground with someone on a similar (but different) subject, what's wrong with bringing it up? Whataboutism is if I say "first fix the issues at X before you talk about Qatar" but someone questioning why you don't boycott China for similar crimes but Qatar is not whataboutism in my opinion. It's calling out on being consistent.

 

[Foxbatt]

@shamans, the issue is a lot more complicated. If anyone has an understanding of the recruiting process then they might think in a different way?
The actual bids or contracts are won by Qatari companies. It's then sub contracted to a lot of times to companies owned only in name by a Qatari. It's mostly South Asian owned. This company sub contracts and eventually it goes down the line to a recruiting company in Asia. The budget is fixed and the huge profit comes from the fixed expenses like accomodations and benefits. Should the Qataris be responsible for the oversight? Of course they should. But a lot of this is also sub contracted.
It's not as if they deliberately want to make slaves out of the immigrants. A lot of times it's immigrants who over see other immigrants. So long as they have these kinds of recruiting companies the exploitation is going to take place. They have to nip this in the bud and not at the top end.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Whataboutism is if I say "first fix the issues at X before you talk about Qatar" but someone questioning why you don't boycott China for similar crimes but Qatar is not whataboutism in my opinion. It's calling out on being consistent.

There's not much difference between "first fix X" or "why don't you boycott Y" when the underlying idea is that the person does not actually want you to fix X or boycott Y. The rhetoric is just being used as a way of getting you to shut up.

I said earlier, dunno if it was here or in another thread, that it is better to try to do good while being a bit inconsistent/hypocritical, than try to be perfectly consistent and achieve nothing.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

A lot of the criticism levelled here can be made toward any political movement or activism. One could make complaints about the divestment from South Africa movement, asking whether it was consistent to seek support from the U.S. (a country with its own issues with racism), whether people were being consistent by boycotting South Africa and not other countries, whether this movement wasn't just going to impoverish the same people it was supposed to help, and so forth. These observations were made, often. They are not without substance, but they are at odds with political action.

 

[Giggsyking]

Yes I can appreciate that but do you imagine the number of 55-70 year old migrant working in Qatar to be high?

I'm sure I've read more than once that construction workers make around 50% of the migrant workforce there. What percentage of the deaths occurred among that group, do you know?

It dose not matter, even we assume the 15000 deaths in Qatar is only for the (50% construction workers) which is in reality not, but lets assume that, the death rate would still be lower than that of the UK and definitely lower than that of their countries of origin.

 

[stevoc]

1) You ask me the same question and same reports don't make me believe there is some systemic brutality of labor workers to the point to boycott the world cup. I do agree there must have been working conditions inhumane from the luxury of our lives but unfortunately, that is the case for most of the world apart from west Europe and North America. You don't have to go too far, some of the working conditions of eastern European countries are pretty poor. In that sense, I don't believe Qatar were moving mountains to ensure the health of the workers (which they probably are now given the attention btw).

What I believe is that Qatar had a transactional relationship with migrant workers in its country. X job for Y pay -- accept or reject. Beyond that we'd go into the subject of capitalism and exploitation.

I have never said there aren't also poor working conditions in other countries. But just because there is doesn't mean that it isn't a good thing to draw attention to the working conditions in Qatar given they are very high profile right now with the World Cup is being hosted there.

2) See this is where "middle east" gets painted with the same brush and people form preconceived notions. Qatar has not been rich since the 70s. Qatar just discovered natural gas (no, not oil) in the 90s and since the 2000's have been building their country. Compare this to say a UAE that has been pretty well built since the mid 90s and have continued on top of that, you obviously see a difference in social values. Back to my point, it takes time for countries to develop and just throwing a country a bag of cash will not make them jump start 100 years of social development. As I've made the point here many times before 1950s United States was not so long ago.

I don't disagree mate countries take time to develop but Qatar has thrown money at their infrastructure, their health system, their welfare system etc. And as I understand it all these sectors are excellent and have developed at a much faster rate than they would have done organically. But how they treat migrant workers has obviously not developed at the same pace.

They discovered their Gas in 1971 but it's not an important point to debate. Maybe they weren't reaping the benefits of it until the 90's I wouldn't know without looking further into it. (https://www.gulf-times.com/story/407519/Qatar-s-gas-reserves-set-to-last-156-years).

3) I don't take specific videos into account. You can easily find workers claiming the treatment has been glorious with no complaints. If I have a bias, which I do, the underlying facts that would convince me to think otherwise would be statistics that prove Qatar has systemically killed their migrant workers due to over exhaustion and used slave labor

The bold is a massive claim and if true, I would not be shameful enough to watch the world cup. Questions about labor treatment and inhumane practices should always be asked and criticized but the severity and extent of the issue matters.

There are a lot of different companies operating in Qatar, so it wouldn't surprise me if some of them treat their workers relatively well. That would make sense as over the years I've read reports that some treat their workers particularly poorly.

Good luck finding such statistics mate, as almost every investigation into this matter has concluded the same thing. That Qatar doesn't do a great job of investigating or recording the actual cause of death for many of their migrant workers.

 

[stevoc]

It dose not matter, even we assume the 15000 deaths in Qatar is only for the (50% construction workers) which is in reality not, but lets assume that, the death rate would still be lower than that of the UK and definitely lower than that of their countries of origin.

So you are saying if we half it for Qatar, just among migrant male construction workers so 100 deaths per 50,000 instead of 100,000?

And that would be lower than than per 50,000 male construction workers of the same age range in the UK?

 

[Giggsyking]

So you are saying if we half it for Qatar, just among migrant male construction workers so 100 deaths per 50,000 instead of 100,000?

And that would be lower than than per 50,000 male construction workers of the same age range in the UK?

If we say that all the deaths (15021) in Qatar are construction workers (which is not) but even, no elderly immigrants did not die, no women did die, the number is would be 100 workers death per 100K. Which is still at the same level of young male adults in the age group (20-50) in the UK of all professions.

And is far far better than the construction workers mortality rate in the UK of all ages ~420 deaths /year per 100k

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(17)30193-7/fulltext

Check the first table.

I think I presented enough statistical evidens and I dont think I can put more info into the subject.

 

[stevoc]

If we say that all the deaths (15021) in Qatar are construction workers (which is not) but even, no elderly immigrants did not die, no women did die, the number is would be 100 workers death per 100K. Which is still at the same level of young male adults in the age group (20-50) in the UK of all professions.

And is far far better than the construction workers mortality rate in the UK of all ages ~420 deaths /year per 100k

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(17)30193-7/fulltext

Check the first table.

I think I presented enough statistical evidens and I dont think I can put more info into the subject.

420 per 100,000 per year die in the UK.

There are roughly 2.7m construction workers in the UK. So going off that death rate 420 x 27 = 11,529 construction workers 20-50 die each year in the UK?

 

[Giggsyking]

420 per 100,000 per year die in the UK.

There are roughly 2.7m construction workers in the UK. So going off that death rate 420 x 27 = 11,529 construction workers 20-50 die each year in the UK?

I dont know what they mean by the definition of construction trades vs operatives,
but it is as below.

Males in construction trades 419 per 100k/ year. Total number of deaths is 71558 per year
Males in construction operatives 505 per 100k/ year. Total number 16246 per year

of all ages, not only 20-50 years.

check the link of the lancet study for the numbers.

It is far higher than Qatars no matter how you look at the numbers.

 

[stevoc]

I dont know what they mean by the definition of construction trades vs operatives,
but it is as below.

Males in construction trades 419 per 100k/ year. Total number of deaths is 71558 per year
Males in construction operatives 505 per 100k/ year. Total number 16246 per year

of all ages, not only 20-50 years.

check the link of the lancet study for the numbers.

It is far higher than Qatars no matter how you look at the numbers.

It's something I will look into at some point as it is of interest to me. If correct it does put the death rates in Qatar into some perspective.

But it still doesn't explain or excuse the reports of how many of the workers there, especially in the lower paid jobs are treated. That's always been one of the main concerns with Qatar.

 

[Hanks]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Wtf, isn't it a red line and completely against the rules???

 

[Boavista]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Wtf, isn't it a red line and completely against the rules???

That's extremely worrying, but what rules do you mean?

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Wtf, isn't it a red line and completely against the rules???

FFS. Really, really hope that’s not true.

 

[shamans]

I have never said there aren't also poor working conditions in other countries. But just because there is doesn't mean that it isn't a good thing to draw attention to the working conditions in Qatar given they are very high profile right now with the World Cup is being hosted there.



I don't disagree mate countries take time to develop but Qatar has thrown money at their infrastructure, their health system, their welfare system etc. And as I understand it all these sectors are excellent and have developed at a much faster rate than they would have done organically. But how they treat migrant workers has obviously not developed at the same pace.

They discovered their Gas in 1971 but it's not an important point to debate. Maybe they weren't reaping the benefits of it until the 90's I wouldn't know without looking further into it. (https://www.gulf-times.com/story/407519/Qatar-s-gas-reserves-set-to-last-156-years).




There are a lot of different companies operating in Qatar, so it wouldn't surprise me if some of them treat their workers relatively well. That would make sense as over the years I've read reports that some treat their workers particularly poorly.

Good luck finding such statistics mate, as almost every investigation into this matter has concluded the same thing. That Qatar doesn't do a great job of investigating or recording the actual cause of death for many of their migrant workers.

We see differently on a few things but I do want to correct you on the "rich since 70s".

I've lived in the middle east and Qatar was not rich until the late 90s. Nothing like the Saudis and UAE. The gas processing and export really started in the 90s when they signed deals with Japan and India I believe.

Don't take my word for it look it up yourself if you wish but Qatar is new money even by middle east standards.

 

[maniak]

FFS. Really, really hope that’s not true.

It's iranian law, those fans should've respected it.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

It's iranian law, those fans should've respected it.

 

[RacingClub]

It's iranian law, those fans should've respected it.

Yup and most probably some government has given another information before so criticism of it would be filthy hypocrisy (if it's actually true).

 

[maniak]

Yup and most probably some government has given another information before so criticism of it would be filthy hypocrisy (if it's actually true).

Yep, Lisbon city council sent by mistake info to russia's embassy about russian protestors last year, so I'm keeping my mouth shut. No sad smileys or empathy, it's just the way it is, all governments are evil.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Yup and most probably some government has given another information before so criticism of it would be filthy hypocrisy (if it's actually true).

Indeed, US, UK and Russia surveil their own people, so it would be wrong (and possibly xenophobic) to voice any support for the people of Iran.

Sound logic

 

[RacingClub]

Yep, Lisbon city council sent by mistake info to russia's embassy about russian protestors last year, so I'm keeping my mouth shut. No sad smileys or empathy, it's just the way it is, all governments are evil.

Indeed, US, UK and Russia surveil their own people, so it would be wrong (and possibly xenophobic) to voice any support for the people of Iran.

Sound logic

Yup say what you want about human rights abuses/ persecution etc but if there is one thing I can't stand it's the hypocrisy.

 

[shamans]

Yep, Lisbon city council sent by mistake info to russia's embassy about russian protestors last year, so I'm keeping my mouth shut. No sad smileys or empathy, it's just the way it is, all governments are evil.

Indeed, US, UK and Russia surveil their own people, so it would be wrong (and possibly xenophobic) to voice any support for the people of Iran.

Sound logic

I don't even know of these parallel arguments but wouldn't it be easy for you guys to then just accept "yes it's hypocrisy but we feel more disdain for Qatar than X" ?

If you're saying yourself similar stuff happens and we say nothing about it.

 

[maniak]

I don't even know of these parallel arguments but wouldn't it be easy for you guys to then just accept "yes it's hypocrisy but we feel more disdain for Qatar than X" ?

If you're saying yourself similar stuff happens and we say nothing about it.

Not really, it would be hypocritical if I didn't say the same things about other countries. The difference is that I don't go on and on about qatar in threads about the US, UK or whatever else, while some can't keep those things out of the qatar thread.

 

[Rood]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Wtf, isn't it a red line and completely against the rules???

I don't understand this - was it banned for Iranians to go to the World Cup?