Rioting Erupts in Europe

Red Pumpkin

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I don't think there is a lack of opportunities to play and progress in football.
If there are few blacks, it will be because of the type of immigration.
Apart from Marcos Senna and Diego Costa - naturalized Brazilians - I can only think of di Stefano when it comes to immigrants who have played for Spain. Munir played 1 game. Now there are a couple coming through with Fati, Balde, Williams. But has Spain not had immigrants for decades now? According to wiki over 15% of Spains population consists of foreign born immigrants. Add in 2 and 3 generation and it might be closer to 30 %.

really not true for Belgium - in fact at the last World Cup Belgium were actually saved from a loss to Japan by goals from 2 players of Moroccan origin (Fellaini and Chadli) plus the likes of Lukaku, Kompany, Batshuyi, witsel etc

Even Spain have a few nowadays but that is more recent
33.3 % of the Belgium population consists of non-belgians or belgians with foreign background. 4 out of 12 million. Of course Belgium will have foreigners in the national team. In this case the moroccans are the biggest group (perhaps except Italians, Dutch, French), 500.000+ strong. Yet except Chadli and Fellaini has there been another Moroccan to play for Belgium? There certainly has been a lot of players born in Belgium who have played for Morocco.
 

Rood

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33.3 % of the Belgium population consists of non-belgians or belgians with foreign background. 4 out of 12 million. Of course Belgium will have foreigners in the national team. In this case the moroccans are the biggest group (perhaps except Italians, Dutch, French), 500.000+ strong. Yet except Chadli and Fellaini has there been another Moroccan to play for Belgium? There certainly has been a lot of players born in Belgium who have played for Morocco.
Dunno about Moroccans specifically but around 30% of that squad had immigrant roots so a long way from a 'token blackie' as you put it and pretty representative of the population as a whole
 

carvajal

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Apart from Marcos Senna and Diego Costa - naturalized Brazilians - I can only think of di Stefano when it comes to immigrants who have played for Spain. Munir played 1 game. Now there are a couple coming through with Fati, Balde, Williams. But has Spain not had immigrants for decades now? According to wiki over 15% of Spains population consists of foreign born immigrants. Add in 2 and 3 generation and it might be closer to 30 %.
Because years ago there was not so much African immigration. There are many South Americans with dual nationality. I think in Ecuador there are some who were born in Spain or Garnacho.
Hakimi could have chosen to play for Spain and the fact that he was a foreigner was not a problem.
I'm sure that in other aspects of life they have a lack of opportunities but I don't think that any child would be left without playing because of that or would be pushed into a corner.
 

AlPistacho

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really not true for Belgium - in fact at the last World Cup Belgium were actually saved from a loss to Japan by goals from 2 players of Moroccan origin (Fellaini and Chadli) plus the likes of Lukaku, Kompany, Batshuyi, witsel etc

Even Spain have a few nowadays but that is more recent
A better comparison is to the U.K. You have a sizeable ethnic minority group, some from impoverished areas feel marginalised and that they don’t get treated equally by the police, and don’t have opportunities. Of course there are many examples of extreme success stories.

But occasionally things can get out of control.
 

AlPistacho

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You mean that this didn't happen in France or Spain because those countries are better at integrating immigrants, then, or?
Not necessarily, just that the ethnic group that feels marginalised isn’t necessarily Moroccans in France. In the USA an Indian or Chinese guy might perceive things very differently to a 3rd generation Black guy who grew up in Chicago.
 

JPRouve

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Not necessarily, just that the ethnic group that feels marginalised isn’t necessarily Moroccans in France. In the USA an Indian or Chinese guy might perceive things very differently to a 3rd generation Black guy who grew up in Chicago.
I still don't get why you make those statements that have no ground in reality. But anyway, it's important to remember that in France the same population that celebrate loudly for african countries or portugal will celebrate for France when they win. And no one is going to have an issue as long as no damages are done.
 

AlPistacho

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I still don't get why you make those statements that have no ground in reality. But anyway, it's important to remember that in France the same population that celebrate loudly for african countries or portugal will celebrate for France when they win. And no one is going to have an issue as long as no damages are done.
You might have missed where I said “all it takes is one idiot on either side (fan or police ) to do something silly and a celebration with lots of people in public can go wrong.

So you disagree that in the USA a 20 year old Indian guy and a 20 year old black guy might have different perceptions of the police? If you don’t then other countries also have similar issues but with various other ethnic groups feeling persecuted by the police or marginalised. In Belgium it happens to be Moroccans. Then you have a state of mistrust between the group that feels marginalised and the police and vice versa.

I hadn’t actually done any reading. Was just things I picked up on but a quick Google search.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/10628...els-and-the-urgency-for-police-accountability
 

JPRouve

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You might have missed where I said “all it takes is one idiot on either side (fan or police ) to do something silly and a celebration with lots of people in public can go wrong.

So you disagree that in the USA a 20 year old Indian guy and a 20 year old black guy might have different perceptions of the police? If you don’t then other countries also have similar issues but with various other ethnic groups feeling persecuted by the police or marginalised. In Belgium it happens to be Moroccans. Then you have a state of mistrust between the group that feels marginalised and the police and vice versa.
I asked you where you get your takes about France and Moroccans compared to others. I clearly bolded the part that I find strange. Just tell me where it comes from.

Edit: And I won't try to talk about countries I don't know enough about.
 

AlPistacho

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I asked you where you get your takes about France and Moroccans compared to others. I clearly bolded the part that I find strange. Just tell me where it comes from.

Edit: And I won't try to talk about countries I don't know enough about.
Because many French Algerians are 3rd generation. The Moroccan population in France is not as established and does not have the history: wars, the massacre of Algerians in Paris in 1961, brutal colonialism, bombings by Algerian groups in the 90s etc.
 

JPRouve

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Because many French Algerians are 3rd generation. The Moroccan population in France is not as established and does not have the history: wars, the massacre of Algerians in Paris in 1961, brutal colonialism, bombings by Algerian groups in the 90s etc.
The only thing that I can tell you is this, none of what you wrote is actually a thing in France outside of maybe a niche xenophobes who happen to not make a difference between North Africans, they are all Maghrebians.

But I'm really curious about where you got this idea from.
 

AlPistacho

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The only thing that I can tell you is this, none of what you wrote is actually a thing in France outside of maybe a niche xenophobes who happen to not make a difference between North Africans, they are all Maghrebians.

But I'm really curious about where you got this idea from.
I don’t think you get my point. I didn’t say only Algerians are persecuted, I meant Algerians feel/are the most persecuted and the majority of infamous French police brutality cases have been against Algerians. I’ve explained the reasons why I think this, they are perfectly valid reasons. But you keep asking me “why I think that or were I got that idea from” I can’t keep repeating it as it’s tedious.

If you’re French don’t take it as a slight on your country, every country has issues. I am aware progress has been made.
 

JPRouve

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I don’t think you get my point. I didn’t say only Algerians are persecuted, I meant Algerians feel/are the most persecuted and the majority of infamous French police brutality cases have been against Algerians. I’ve explained the reasons why I think this, they are perfectly valid reasons. But you keep asking me “why I think that or were I got that idea from” I can’t keep repeating it as it’s tedious.

If you’re French don’t take it as a slight on your country, every country has issues. I am aware progress has been made.
The issue is that what you are trying to explain doesn't exist in the first place. That's why asked you where it comes from. I would like to understand where you got the idea that algerians were persecuted or the most persecuted by the police.
 

AlPistacho

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The issue is that what you are trying to explain doesn't exist in the first place. That's why asked you where it comes from. I would like to understand where you got the idea that algerians were persecuted or the most persecuted by the police.
Wars, the massacre of Algerians in Paris in 1961, brutal colonialism, bombings by Algerian groups in the 90s etc.
You’re right. There are no issues. Have never been any issues that can cause mistrust on both sides that can lead to police brutality and rawdy youths.
 

wangyu

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What a dramatic title. There have been some riots in Belgium and Holland and as far as I know that's it. There are riots every freaking weekend when it is football in Europe.

Question: Why do the young Moroccans in Spain (they have a large Moroccan populations well) behave or is there trouble with them as well?
 

antohan

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I imagine whats happened in some parts of Belgium/Netherlands is similar to whatever happened in Buenos Aires that day - started with celebrations and then some trouble makers ruined it

I think calling it rioting is sensationalist but I wasnt there so who knows
Probably, yeah.

You have to bear in mind over here we are used to stuff like what happened in Peru yesterday. I went for a siesta and while I slept the President dissolved Parliament, the military went "huh?", Parliament impeached him and by the time I woke up he was detained. Argentina once had 5 different presidents inside two weeks... We have a higher bar and order of chaotic magnitude for what we call a riot.
 

Hammondo

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I’m not sure why, Belgium have been one of the most underwhelming “golden generations” ever.

Despite all their top names they have never looked like they were contenders for any major trophy. Even KDB saying “we’re too old to win the WC”

As the best player in Your team how could you say that ?
He's realistic.
 

Hammondo

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Thank feck Charisteas wasn’t “realistic” in Euro 04

Or even Wes Morgan in 2015…..
That's a fair point, but I would say that this Belgium team doesn't have the mentality to pull it off even if he fought for everything.
 

Bepi

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It's all 'murrica's fault :D

For real: we non-english speakers hear them use the term in official capacity and assume it's the accurate, non-offensive term
There is no “official” capacity, though? Alien- for alienation, is a cultural issue aka nurture (starting from France and their integration/assimilation debates from last centiry)… or an appearance issue, aka nature as in the Anglosphere, where you are black, brown, yellow, white and that’s it? Users talking one and users understanding the other.
 

ryansgirl

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Migration is a very difficult and complex process and by not having a functioning concept to properly integrate migrants [short- mid- and longterm], states & migrants create parallel societies whose members are not able to identify with the country they're living in, resulting in frustration & a general feeling of alienation. This alienation very often leads to fear of the unknown, which leads to migrants alienate even further; it's a vicious circle from my experience. It's just like master Yoda said.
That`s a very good summary. It is also a fact that despite the oft said `humanitarian` reasons for allowing defacto immigration through asylum seeking for example as well as the established refugee intake methods, these processes are underpinned by economic policy. The traditional people of Europe and the British Isles, Republic of Ireland etc are not having children in what is considered economically sustainable numbers.

It is about demographics - governments want young populations in order to keep the consumption cycle going as well as providing the tax base for different societies. Those are key reasons why the negative side of having growing populations of people from countries historically and culturally very different tends to be more influential than it should.

There is also the element of same as it ever was regarding the attitude of the host culture. `They do not attempt to follow our traditional mores, their culture is too different from ours, their religion is an alien one that pledges allegiance to foreign powers instead of our rightful government and establishment - foreign powers that seek to overthrown our own order - and despite their often modest to poor financial circumstances they have an excessive number of children.`

Those kinds of opinions were expressed about the native Irish over a number of centuries including even the 20th.
 

nuanced

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It is about demographics - governments want young populations in order to keep the consumption cycle going as well as providing the tax base for different societies. Those are key reasons why the negative side of having growing populations of people from countries historically and culturally very different tends to be more influential than it should.
Plug for population pyramid - https://www.populationpyramid.net/netherlands/2019/

The demographics look even worse for countries like Germany, Spain, Italy, Portugal. UK and France are doing much better than the rest of Europe.
 

JPRouve

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For balance moroccans and french, were also in number celebrating together.