Where does Ancelotti rank among all time great managers?

PepG

Full Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2016
Messages
1,172
Supports
Ajax
Ancelotti is the best man manager i have ever seen. Tactically he gave up the system approach long before he joined the so called elite teams. When he was at Parma they had the opportunity to sign Roberto Baggio but Ancelotti declined because he couldnt fit him in his then favourable 442 system. Then he realised his mistake and changed his view about the systems. From then on he started to fit the system to the players he has.. thats why for example he played the so called Christmas tree system at AC Milan and did not in his next jobs.. that flexibility made him one of the best ever, especially when he is coaching top teams but his failure at Bayern showed that its not working when the team is used to the systematic approach and needs more than just good vibes and fitting all the best players at the best positions on the pitch. What i really like about him is that he is making his teams to play simple, wich is the hardest thing to do in football, as we know.
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
7,984
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Guardiola maybe the best coach ever. But he is far from being the best in the CL.

The breakdown of this ratio. Because the ppg can be a bit misleading... In his first 3 seasons with City the only KO tie he won against a top 5 league club was one against Schalke in a season they were 14th of 18...

Including the fourth season, his record in such KO ties was 2 win/6 ties. (wins vs Schalke and Madrid), and 4 losses to Monaco, Spurs, Pool and Lyon.

His record with Bayern wasn't much better. One win in extra-time vs Juventus and defeats to all 3 Spanish clubs (those were the 4 big clubs of that period alongside Bayern)... It becomes 3 wins and 3 losses when we include games against Arsenal and Moyes' Man Utd... While it is a decent record for any manager to win 3 in 6, it wasn't necessarily for the Bayern he inherited that had a near 90% record before him...
I mean, we're talking about a man who reached the semifinals 9 out of the 13 times he competed in the UCL. For comparison: Ferguson managed that 7 times out of 19. Ancelotti 9 out of 20 times.

It's true he hasn't won it as often but as far as consistency goes there's hardly a coach with a better UCL record than Pep. And it's not as if the others only ever faced top teams in the KO rounds.

You could even argue that the fact Pep hasn't won it in such a long while is simply bad luck since luck/chance plays such a huge role in knockout competitions.
 

pacifictheme

Full Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Messages
7,665
I think he's incredible, one of the very best managers of his generation. In the last 20 years it's him, Ferguson, pep and mourinho as the best 4.

Hes been my first choice every time we've needed a new manager since fergie left.
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
7,984
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Ancelotti is the best man manager i have ever seen. Tactically he gave up the system approach long before he joined the so called elite teams. When he was at Parma they had the opportunity to sign Roberto Baggio but Ancelotti declined because he couldnt fit him in his then favourable 442 system. Then he realised his mistake and changed his view about the systems. From then on he started to fit the system to the players he has.. thats why for example he played the so called Christmas tree system at AC Milan and did not in his next jobs.. that flexibility made him one of the best ever, especially when he is coaching top teams but his failure at Bayern showed that its not working when the team is used to the systematic approach and needs more than just good vibes and fitting all the best players at the best positions on the pitch. What i really like about him is that he is making his teams to play simple, wich is the hardest thing to do in football, as we know.
That's a very good take. Ancelotti is at his best at a team like Madrid where he has many experienced players playing together for years who want to bring in their ideas and concepts as well, such as Modric, Kroos, Benzema, Ramos, Ronaldo, Marcelo, Casemiro, etc. Unforgettable how he exchanged with those guys on the sideline on eye level last season. A great leader that gives his 'inferiors' the room to unfold. But he's not as good when the team requires clear instructions and patterns of play.

Plus I think he profitted from being at Madrid for so long. That club has something about its culture that sets the players up to surpass themselves and beat the odds in big UCL games. Last year was a masterpiece in that regard and how focused they were against Liverpool was evidence that they still have that in them. How ice cold Vinicius and Benzema finished off that one attack was really impressive.
 

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
49,419
Location
London
It is crazy that he never had the same reputation as Pep or even Mourinho. I think in the last 25 years or so, I would rank him below SAF and Pep, and can be argued to be above Pep. He has to be be ahead of Mourinho.
 

AaronRedDevil

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2018
Messages
9,534
Top 3 easily. Wanted him to replace SAF in the beginning. We needed a CL winning manager. Now he's on his way to winning it again this season. Its perfection for RM at the moment.
 

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
49,419
Location
London
I mean, we're talking about a man who reached the semifinals 9 out of the 13 times he competed in the UCL. For comparison: Ferguson managed that 7 times out of 19. Ancelotti 9 out of 20 times.

It's true he hasn't won it as often but as far as consistency goes there's hardly a coach with a better UCL record than Pep. And it's not as if the others only ever faced top teams in the KO rounds.

You could even argue that the fact Pep hasn't won it in such a long while is simply bad luck since luck/chance plays such a huge role in knockout competitions.
You could also argue that the two times he won it was cause of luck/referee mistakes (ref robbing Chelsea in 2009, red card for RVP while Arsenal was leading with half an hour left in 2011).
 

Dancfc

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
7,392
Supports
Chelsea
It is crazy that he never had the same reputation as Pep or even Mourinho. I think in the last 25 years or so, I would rank him below SAF and Pep, and can be argued to be above Pep. He has to be be ahead of Mourinho.
As someone who's club had them both, peak Mourinho was a level above.
 

Pintu

Full Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
3,979
Location
Sweden
Bar Everton and Napoli Ancelotti has had the exact type of jobs that Pep has had and been mocked for taking the easy options and he has 3 less titles in almost twice the time.
What exactly is the equivalent of having 7 years in the City job. A cheating machine with unlimited resources?
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
7,984
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
You could also argue that the two times he won it was cause of luck/referee mistakes (ref robbing Chelsea in 2009, red card for RVP while Arsenal was leading with half an hour left in 2011).
I don't think that such stuff makes sense. In contrast, he really didn't deserve to go out against Inter.against which they were the much better team.

In the end, that's just the nature of cup competitions. They are much harder to win if you are the best team than aleagur competition/much easier to fluke if you are not the best team.
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,377
Location
The Zone
I mean, we're talking about a man who reached the semifinals 9 out of the 13 times he competed in the UCL.
You could even argue that the fact Pep hasn't won it in such a long while is simply bad luck since luck/chance plays such a huge role in knockout competitions.
I don't think that such stuff makes sense. In contrast, he really didn't deserve to go out against Inter.against which they were the much better team.
:lol:

Nice to see you’ve got a account on here Pep but your match starts in a few hours.
 

Adebisi's Hat

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
718
Location
Out Wesht
Supports
who do you feckin think ?
He has to be right up there , certainly in terms of European titles. I don't think he was ever as dominant as Fergie or Pep though at domestic level at his clubs which maybe counts him down a peg but in Europe there is no equal, he absolutely owns Klopp and is usually able to get the better of Pep. Did his spell at Bayern not go so well though (relatively speaking as he won Bundesliga) ? any Bayern fans on here may have an interesting take on him.
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
7,984
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Jesus, why would I even care about that GIF? :lol:

You guys always seem to think somebody has an agenda when they just state an opinion that happens to be defending a representative of a rival club. Don't extrapolate from yourself to others.
 

Lee565

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
4,978
Him and sir Alex for me, he's above pep who hit the jackpot with prime messi and a great Spanish generation, he then went to one team Germany where he failed in ucl and financial doping man City but failed to win ucl and not able to dominate the premier league like united under fergie despite all the riches he has.
 

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
49,419
Location
London
I don't think that such stuff makes sense. In contrast, he really didn't deserve to go out against Inter.against which they were the much better team.

In the end, that's just the nature of cup competitions. They are much harder to win if you are the best team than aleagur competition/much easier to fluke if you are not the best team.
They deserved to get out against Inter, and refs helped them a lot.
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,377
Location
The Zone
You guys always seem to think somebody has an agenda when they just state an opinion that happens to be defending a representative of a rival club. Don't extrapolate from yourself to others.
Tbh I genuinely think this is a big difference between English and German football.

You a Leverkusen fan are praising a former Bayern Munich manager for getting to some semi finals and conceding 3 goals at the San Siro. Where as me a United fan, view Pep as a bald twat who bottles it in Europe and can only win big ears when his players are pumped full of drugs. This level of sophistication and analysis is why the premier league is the greatest league in world football.

Also the Germans stopped Don Carlo from smoking cigs, one of their many many crimes.
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
7,984
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Tbh I genuinely think this is a big difference between English and German football.

You a Leverkusen fan are praising a former Bayern Munich manager for getting to some semi finals and conceding 3 goals at the San Siro. Where as me a United fan, view Pep as a bald twat who bottles it in Europe and can only win big ears when his players are pumped full of drugs. This level of sophistication and analysis is why the premier league is the greatest league in world football.

Also the Germans stopped Don Carlo from smoking cigs, one of their many many crimes.
I think this has less to do with being German or English. I'd find myself pretty stupid if I couldn't put my biases aside and assess people at least somewhat objectively even if I don't like them. There are many fans in Germany who are completely irrational in those situations as well but they don't join international football forums because they are not interested in opinions outside their bubble. I mean, why would anybody opinions of people serious who don't even have any own opinions and just adapt what's the most favourable for their club?

That's like parents unable to to accept that their child is a spoilt brat. Utterly annoying ;)
 

giorno

boob novice
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
26,143
Supports
Real Madrid
I don't think that such stuff makes sense. In contrast, he really didn't deserve to go out against Inter.against which they were the much better team.
the hell they were. They got massacred in Milan and played most of the second leg with a man advantage and barely laid a glove on inter
 

MVBDX

Full Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
782
Supports
Real Madrid
@Zehner is the biggest Barca/Pep/Messi fan out there, everytime you open CAF over the years, you see him defending them, even in random, unrelated, threads.
Dunno how many posts he's had about his supposed team (Leverkusen), but he's got a few K about his actual beloveds.
 

alquemyst

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jul 13, 2021
Messages
41
People call him Don Carlo. That's enough info to close any argument about him.
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
7,984
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
@Zehner is the biggest Barca/Pep/Messi fan out there, everytime you open CAF over the years, you see him defending them, even in random, unrelated, threads.
Dunno how many posts he's had about his supposed team (Leverkusen), but he's got a few K about his actual beloveds.
:lol:

Nobody can fool you. I'm almost a bit relieved somebody finally found out. You can't imagine the pressure.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

You'd better not kill Giroud
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
28,309
If he wins UCL a third time across two stints with Madrid then he's probably top five all time. Did La Decima, smashed the PL, won the UCL twice and a final with Milan.

Won a league in all five top leagues (Italy, UK, Germany, France, Spain)
 

Bebestation

Im a doctor btw, my IQ destroys yours
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
11,862
@Zehner is the biggest Barca/Pep/Messi fan out there, everytime you open CAF over the years, you see him defending them, even in random, unrelated, threads.
Dunno how many posts he's had about his supposed team (Leverkusen), but he's got a few K about his actual beloveds.
:lol:
 

Andrade

Rebuilding Expert
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,460
It is obviously difficult and a historic feat. But the other good manager handing the same set of players won it three times in three years as a rookie so we have to consider the team, clubs historical pedigree in the competition etc too.
Nope because the guy you mentioned is also a great (and similarly underrated) manager. Don't forget that ZZ did not take over directly from Carlo. Benitez, a manager of good standing at the time, flopped with the same squad before ZZ took over. And also Madrid had not won the CL for a decade plus before Carlo and they'd had good managers throughout that period, including peak Jose. So it's not like anyone can do it, even if it is Madrid.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
95,336
Location
india
Nope because the guy you mentioned is also a great (and similarly underrated) manager. Don't forget that ZZ did not take over directly from Carlo. Benitez, a manager of good standing at the time, flopped with the same squad before ZZ took over. And also Madrid had not won the CL for a decade plus before Carlo and they'd had good managers throughout that period, including peak Jose. So it's not like anyone can do it, even if it is Madrid.
I’m not saying anybody can do it but that it’s been done across managers by this group even more so under a different one. It’s still an amazing feat but I do find it amusing how CL centric the discourse on everything is over here. I have a feeling most here would trade Sir Alex’s 13 league titles for two extra CLs invoking 3-4 memorable ties each. I’ll always be in that minority that considers league football absolutely vital.
 

Andrade

Rebuilding Expert
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,460
I’m not saying anybody can do it but that it’s been done across managers by this group even more so under a different one. It’s still an amazing feat but I do find it amusing how CL centric the discourse on everything is over here. I have a feeling most here would trade Sir Alex’s 13 league titles for two extra CLs invoking 3-4 memorable ties each. I’ll always be in that minority that considers league football absolutely vital.
I wouldn't say two managers is 'across' managers but I see what you're saying. The problem is though that the CL has massively increased in importance since the switch from the European Cup and the Bosman rule changes that enables clubs to build superteams. This has in turn devalued league titles because only a few superclub teams in a league can actually win it. Also, PL fans do not respect other leagues, so someone winning 10 league titles in Italy or Spain is meaningless to them. A CL win is respected by everybody.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
95,336
Location
india
I wouldn't say two managers is 'across' managers but I see what you're saying. The problem is though that the CL has massively increased in importance since the switch from the European Cup and the Bosman rule changes that enables clubs to build superteams. This has in turn devalued league titles because only a few superclub teams in a league can actually win it. Also, PL fans do not respect other leagues, so someone winning 10 league titles in Italy or Spain is meaningless to them. A CL win is respected by everybody.
Yeah suffice to say that I don’t value or respect opinions like that either. For me, performing week in week out over a gruelling 38 game season and proving yourself to first and foremost be the best in your own league is paramount. I’ve always seen the CL as the icing (lovely icing as it is). Especially when we’re talking about elite leagues like the PL or La Liga which are barring the odd year big accomplishments to win.
 

MVBDX

Full Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
782
Supports
Real Madrid
Yeah suffice to say that I don’t value or respect opinions like that either. For me, performing week in week out over a gruelling 38 game season and proving yourself to first and foremost be the best in your own league is paramount. I’ve always seen the CL as the icing (lovely icing as it is). Especially when we’re talking about elite leagues like the PL or La Liga which are barring the odd year big accomplishments to win.
That's nice and all, but close title races are as luck dependent as two KO games:

La Liga 2014-15 (Ancelotti)
Barcelona - 94 pts
Madrid - 92 pts

La Liga 2015-16 (Benitez + Zidane)
Barcelona - 91 pts
Madrid - 90 pts

The above are simply two examples (there are a few others), the odds of getting an undeserved penalty/goal over 38 games is much higher (than just 2 games), and in this case, that is literally the difference between the champions and second place.

Add the recent news regarding shady payments by Barca over the years, and it's fair the say that these titles have lost their value.
 

DeGea

Full Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2014
Messages
1,287
Location
Scotland
Loyalties aside, is Ancelotti the best manager ever?

The first and ONLY manager to have won league titles in all the top leagues.

Most champions league wins as a manger - 4.

Most champions league finals as manager - 5.

23 major titles as a manager.

I mean, if SAF had those records, we wouldn’t even hesitate to claim SAF is the best ever.

Love SAF obviously and this is in no way being disrespectful to Sir Alex, but I think Don Carlo is the best manager ever.
 

AndySmith1990

Full Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2021
Messages
5,892
Loyalties aside, is Ancelotti the best manager ever?

The first and ONLY manager to have won league titles in all the top leagues.

Most champions league wins as a manger - 4.

Most champions league finals as manager - 5.

I mean, if SAF had those records, we wouldn’t even hesitate to claim SAF is the best ever.

Love SAF obviously and this is in no way being disrespectful to Sir Alex, but I think Don Carlo is the best manager ever.
I personally find it more impressive to build several title winning teams and maintain success (and periods of dominance) for over 20 years at one club. But there's every possibility I could be biased without realising it. In any case Ancelotti certainly deserves to be in the conversation when discussing the greatest managers
 

united_99

Takes pleasure in other people's pain
Joined
Jul 4, 2012
Messages
9,565
Loyalties aside, is Ancelotti the best manager ever?

The first and ONLY manager to have won league titles in all the top leagues.

Most champions league wins as a manger - 4.

Most champions league finals as manager - 5.

23 major titles as a manager.

I mean, if SAF had those records, we wouldn’t even hesitate to claim SAF is the best ever.

Love SAF obviously and this is in no way being disrespectful to Sir Alex, but I think Don Carlo is the best manager ever.
It’s close. For me of course SAF wins.
But I really like Carlo.
It’s 4 CLs and a few league titles in different countries vs 4 European trophies and 16 league titles. Across several decades for both managers.

Also managing Madrid and Chelsea are very challenging jobs, 2nd place in the league or no CL title gets you the sack under Perez and Roman.

Not sure about best ever, but for me he is absolutely among the best ever managers. In terms of pure tactician however, he may indeed be the best ever.
His CL knock out record / record against big teams is phenomenal over 2 decades. You don’t get such a record without being a brilliant tactician.
 

Andrade

Rebuilding Expert
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,460
Loyalties aside, is Ancelotti the best manager ever?

The first and ONLY manager to have won league titles in all the top leagues.

Most champions league wins as a manger - 4.

Most champions league finals as manager - 5.

23 major titles as a manager.

I mean, if SAF had those records, we wouldn’t even hesitate to claim SAF is the best ever.

Love SAF obviously and this is in no way being disrespectful to Sir Alex, but I think Don Carlo is the best manager ever.
No. Great manager though.