VAR and Refs | General Discussion | Forest go into meltdown

[Listar]

Came to post this after just seeing it again. Out of all the decisions I actually think this one is the easiest one to give which they got wrong. Keeper touches his left heel which causes it to kick the back of his right leg. It’s a pen.

Go check Chris foy commentating on this incident.

in his own words while the replay is showing: “Anthony Taylor is quite right to offer a goal kick. I couldn’t see any contact by the goalkeeper, I mean.. (and then he saw the contact, starts back-pedalling here)… we got the magnifying glass on that now which would determine… if we use a magnifying glass is it still clear an obvious?….

the trying to cover for their own is so blatantly obvious! They not even trying to hide it

good on Dion and Glenn for not taking his crap. He got clipped by the goalkeeper which was missed by the referee how is that not clear and obvious? By the same logic is casemiro clear and obvious?

By the way, both Glenn and Dion agreed that the handball was a penalty. Chris Foy even said that it hit his chest first and Glenn was like, er no… it hit his arm first. Chris Foy having a howler (like his eyes are not working) there trying to defend the indefensible the ball has travelled a long way but hey why can’t the opposition have more than one goalkeeper?

Utd played with 10 men against 2 goalkeepers + corrupt refs and we got a draw.

 

[Listar]

The biggest tell is the way the defender reacts. He doesn’t pull his arm away like he did if he doesn’t think what he’s just done is a problem.

Biggest tell tale sign for me is that if it’s allowed then why can’t defenders just keep diving to stop the ball with their arms. I mean as long as the arm is on the ground it’s not a penalty right? I am still seething tbh. And this game is not even that important but the blatant biasness from
Marriner and Anthony (they already have a history) against United really got to me.

 

[Chief123]

I believe if you fail in any appeal it’s a 1 game extra ban I think? That would end up being a 5 game ban which is mental. It would be Forest away which isn’t too bad but still not sure it’s worth the risk. These kind of incidents rarely get turned over. I think it’s extremely unlikely this one would either.

 

[ManUnitedCanuck]

Biggest tell tale sign for me is that if it’s allowed then why can’t defenders just keep diving to stop the ball with their arms. I mean as long as the arm is on the ground it’s not a penalty right? I am still seething tbh. And this game is not even that important but the blatant biasness from
Marriner and Anthony (they already have a history) against United really got to me.

I thought it was a great job by the keeper, got down and made sure the ball stayed in front of him without much of a rebound. Well done by him to keep control of a bouncing ball.

 

[Strelok]

You can clearly see the keepers knee caught rashford. From another clip you can see that causes his left leg to hit his right causing him to fall.

that to me is borderline corrupt at this stage

Thank you. I was trying to find this clip but couldn't. I still couldn't understand why it was not a pen and VAR did feck all. The ball was still in play, the keeper clearly made contact with his left leg which cause it to hit his right leg. With the very high speed Rashford was going even a tiny contact with his legs would make him fall. It's a stoned penalty and VAR just decided to not see it. Baffling really.

 

[christy87]

Thank you. I was trying to find this clip but couldn't. I still couldn't understand why it was not a pen and VAR did feck all. The ball was still in play, the keeper clearly made contact with his left leg which cause it to hit his right leg. With the very high speed Rashford was going even a tiny contact with his legs would make him fall. It's a stoned penalty and VAR just decided to not see it. Baffling really.

What happened there is exactly what happens in a tap tackle in rugby, the slightest contact will send his foot into the back of his leg when moving at speed.

 

[Strelok]

What happened there is exactly what happens in a tap tackle in rugby, the slightest contact will send his foot into the back of his leg when moving at speed.

Yeah I've seen countless pens given for the exact same situation. In fact it's simply impossible to find any reason, any explanation why this was not a pen. And here VAR didn't even bother to check it But they surely found enough time to find the best frame possible to intervene in the Casemiro red card, which was very debatable. VAR is supposed to intervene only when the main ref clearly/obviously makes a mistake or an error or in a situation might lead to a goal. It's truly mind boggling

 

[Anustart89]

Go check Chris foy commentating on this incident.

in his own words while the replay is showing: “Anthony Taylor is quite right to offer a goal kick. I couldn’t see any contact by the goalkeeper, I mean.. (and then he saw the contact, starts back-pedalling here)… we got the magnifying glass on that now which would determine… if we use a magnifying glass is it still clear an obvious?….

the trying to cover for their own is so blatantly obvious! They not even trying to hide it

good on Dion and Glenn for not taking his crap. He got clipped by the goalkeeper which was missed by the referee how is that not clear and obvious? By the same logic is casemiro clear and obvious?

By the way, both Glenn and Dion agreed that the handball was a penalty. Chris Foy even said that it hit his chest first and Glenn was like, er no… it hit his arm first. Chris Foy having a howler (like his eyes are not working) there trying to defend the indefensible the ball has travelled a long way but hey why can’t the opposition have more than one goalkeeper?

Utd played with 10 men against 2 goalkeepers + corrupt refs and we got a draw.

This is exactly where VAR is supposed to step in.

Casemiro: ref sees a tackle, deems it a yellow card. VAR steps in saying “hey I know that you saw the tackle and gave a yellow for it but you should rewatch it in slow motion with footage carefully selected by me”

Rashford: ref doesn’t see a tackle, gives goal kick under assumption no contact was made. VAR: “here I have footage that shows that the ref missed contact which can easily happen in real time. I’m not going to bother showing it to him though because I’m Andre Marriner”

 

[arnie_ni]

This is exactly where VAR is supposed to step in.

Casemiro: ref sees a tackle, deems it a yellow card. VAR steps in saying “hey I know that you saw the tackle and gave a yellow for it but you should rewatch it in slow motion with footage carefully selected by me”

Rashford: ref doesn’t see a tackle, gives goal kick under assumption no contact was made. VAR: “here I have footage that shows that the ref missed contact which can easily happen in real time. I’m not going to bother showing it to him though because I’m Andre Marriner”

The ref must have seen the contact though otherwise he has to book rashford for diving.

Makes the decision even more baffling.

 

[stevoc]

On another day (for another team) one or both of those penalty incidents would be flagged by VAR and a penalty is awarded (and arguably the one on Garnacho, no idea how that wasn't deemed as bad or worse than Caemiro's). But in 26 matches now in the Premier League we've had 2 penalties and one of those when we were 6 goals down. We've had multiple stone wall penalties not only not given but half the time they don't even bother to review hem. I'm long past the point where I even expect them to review them or ever give us one. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get another penalty for the rest of the season as it's obvious to me we just aren't getting penalties for whatever reason.

In fact the only penalty we've had this season that we gained something from was vs Palace. Which was the same game that Andre Mariner and the VAR team decided they needed to even up by picking Casemiro grabbing someone's collar out of a 20 man scuffle full of pushes, grabs and slaps and give him a red card. The same Andre Mariner that went against protocol yesterday and asked the Ref to review a decision that he'd already seen and booked someone for, which wasn't a clear and obvious error.

 

[Oranges038]

Came to post this after just seeing it again. Out of all the decisions I actually think this one is the easiest one to give which they got wrong. Keeper touches his left heel which causes it to kick the back of his right leg. It’s a pen.

If it's not he has to book him for diving?

But then again, just look at what Pope got away with, clear penalty and a red card probably for a last man tackle.

But he got a goal kick for his troubles.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Just saw the Dan Burns one where it is very similar, I don't get it anymore and it is making football rubbish.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

On another day (for another team) one or both of those penalty incidents would be flagged by VAR and a penalty is awarded (and arguably the one on Garnacho, no idea how that wasn't deemed as bad or worse than Caemiro's). But in 26 matches now in the Premier League we've had 2 penalties and one of those when we were 6 goals down. We've had multiple stone wall penalties not only not given but half the time they don't even bother to review hem. I'm long past the point where I even expect them to review them or ever give us one. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get another penalty for the rest of the season as it's obvious to me we just aren't getting penalties for whatever reason.

In fact the only penalty we've had this season that we gained something from was vs Palace. Which was the same game that Andre Mariner and the VAR team decided they needed to even up by picking Casemiro grabbing someone's collar out of a 20 man scuffle full of pushes, grabs and slaps and give him a red card. The same Andre Mariner that went against protocol yesterday and asked the Ref to review a decision that he'd already seen and booked someone for, which wasn't a clear and obvious error.

I agree with this

I don't genuinely think there is any corruption in the sense that there are back alley meetings and they're out to "get" United.

My thought is that the officials know that if they award United a decision, they are very likely to be in the spotlight. We see when United get a controversial decision, even if it's technically correct but harsh, that the media/pundits will review it 678 times over the next 2 weeks. United get bad decisions against them every single week and nothing gets made of it. Imagine the difference if Southampton got that red card, didn't get those penalties etc. You'd have really impassioned pundits crying blue murder. Very quiet when it's United getting dicked by these same calls.

I think we're simply flawed by being, by far, the biggest club in England. Which naturally translates to the most hated. And referees are afraid of the spotlight being on them.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I just don't understand the rules anymore. I was far more incensed with the decisions in the game yesterday probably than I have ever been watching another United game. Shocking.

 

[Ayoba]

Get used to it folks, after the rashford/bruno incident against city its going to be a while before we get an decision in our favour.

 

[WeePat]

I agree with this

I don't genuinely think there is any corruption in the sense that there are back alley meetings and they're out to "get" United.

My thought is that the officials know that if they award United a decision, they are very likely to be in the spotlight. We see when United get a controversial decision, even if it's technically correct but harsh, that the media/pundits will review it 678 times over the next 2 weeks. United get bad decisions against them every single week and nothing gets made of it. Imagine the difference if Southampton got that red card, didn't get those penalties etc. You'd have really impassioned pundits crying blue murder. Very quiet when it's United getting dicked by these same calls.

I think we're simply flawed by being, by far, the biggest club in England. Which naturally translates to the most hated. And referees are afraid of the spotlight being on them.

This is a bit too Bluemoon-ish for me. The inconsistency is infuriating but if you visit the message board of all 20 teams in the league, I can guarantee each of those fanbases are totally convinced it is them who are being massively unfavoured and unfairly treated by officials. If everyone believes they are the ones who get the unfair calls, then …

 

[LawCharltonBest]

This is a bit too Bluemoon-ish for me. The inconsistency is infuriating but if you visit the message board of all 20 teams in the league, I can guarantee each of those fanbases are totally convinced it is them who are being massively unfavoured and unfairly treated by officials. If everyone believes they are the ones who get the unfair calls, then …

You can't convince me that if United got those same calls it wouldn't be a huge football talking point today. Compared to the tumbleweed it is since United were cost by them.

The terrible refereeing is a much wider issue than just United, but it's very clear that they're particularly afraid to give us decisions. Look at the ridiculous backlash to that Fernandes goal vs City. Couldn't put a football channel on without them pounding on about it with saliva dripping through their teeth, eyes wide and red. Had calls at least as bad, if not worse than that, in 80% of the matches since with not a peep.

Look at the penalty you got against us. Seen that happen at least 3 times in every match since against us. No penalties. And when did an opposition player last get sent off against United?

Wider issue, but United are particularly vulnerable.

 

[Andersonson]

If it wasnt a red card the club can appeal. They wont since it was a red card. Its true that refs often dont punish these tackles enough though.

 

[Lyng]

This is a bit too Bluemoon-ish for me. The inconsistency is infuriating but if you visit the message board of all 20 teams in the league, I can guarantee each of those fanbases are totally convinced it is them who are being massively unfavoured and unfairly treated by officials. If everyone believes they are the ones who get the unfair calls, then …

I do agree with you, however I do believe there is a rather clear difference in the media on how calls are being treated. If this happened against Liverpool, or the current media darlings Arsenal, there would be massive coverage. Whereas us and Chelsea there is radio silence.

 

[Bebestation]

Referees need post match interviews.

They would be more consistent whatever the outcome.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

If it wasnt a red card the club can appeal. They wont since it was a red card. Its true that refs often dont punish these tackles enough though.

Not as simple as that though is it.

If it was, the Casemiro red card for holding someone's collar would have been appealed and taken away, if common sense existed. But it doesn't.

They'd only admit fault and reverse the Referee AND VARs decision if it was mistaken identity or something, otherwise they're pretty much admitting that VAR and the Referees can't do their job properly even with TV replays.

 

[Pexbo]

We’ve got nothing to lose really. Last time he could have missed the final, this time he could miss Palace. The reward outweighs the risk this time.

We should appeal it and make our appeal public. It should be based on the inconsistency of refereeing. The fact it was a VAR red card only makes it worse because it was calculated rather than an on field in the moment decision.

VAR ignore far worse challenges all weekend.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Although I agree, it’s an easy out for them when it’s different refs and different matches, it’s how that ref interpreted it. We need it in the same game and then mariner would be banged to rights.

However it is strange how he wanted to show the onfield ref slow motion footage of one incident but then not slow motion footage to clearly show contact in the box that the ref had missed. I think mariner actually missed that himself too.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I was all for technology. In other sports I watch it helps a great deal because everyone involved is competent and there are clear rules and guidelines helping them.

This is absolute mince now though in football. I haven't a clue what the rules are anymore and you don't even know what is going to be looked at / recommended / decision be taken at any point. It's killing the game, and there needs to be a serious revamp of how the use VAR in the summer otherwise I'd just do away with it bar from offsides.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I was all for technology. In other sports I watch it helps a great deal because everyone involved is competent and there are clear rules and guidelines helping them.

This is absolute mince now though in football. I haven't a clue what the rules are anymore and you don't even know what is going to be looked at / recommended / decision be taken at any point. It's killing the game, and there needs to be a serious revamp of how the use VAR in the summer otherwise I'd just do away with it bar from offsides.

VAR will never help ref subjective decisions, it will always end up looking like a pick and choose scenario with no right answer.

this man Utd forum on just yesterdays game has conflicting views on the red card and every penalty shout. VAR can’t win so is utterly pointless.

Add the inconsistency into that and it becomes a joke. Like you, I never know what or when the VAR will get involved with these days. It’s killed an enjoyable fast paced sport.

 

[The Purley King]

This is exactly where VAR is supposed to step in.

Casemiro: ref sees a tackle, deems it a yellow card. VAR steps in saying “hey I know that you saw the tackle and gave a yellow for it but you should rewatch it in slow motion with footage carefully selected by me”

Rashford: ref doesn’t see a tackle, gives goal kick under assumption no contact was made. VAR: “here I have footage that shows that the ref missed contact which can easily happen in real time. I’m not going to bother showing it to him though because I’m Andre Marriner”

exactly.
How the rashford one wasn’t highlighted to the referee is mind boggling.
That is precisely the purpose of var and yet for reasons only known to marriner he chose not to advise the referee he had made a clear and obvious error.

 

[Listar]

On another day (for another team) one or both of those penalty incidents would be flagged by VAR and a penalty is awarded (and arguably the one on Garnacho, no idea how that wasn't deemed as bad or worse than Caemiro's). But in 26 matches now in the Premier League we've had 2 penalties and one of those when we were 6 goals down. We've had multiple stone wall penalties not only not given but half the time they don't even bother to review hem. I'm long past the point where I even expect them to review them or ever give us one. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get another penalty for the rest of the season as it's obvious to me we just aren't getting penalties for whatever reason.

In fact the only penalty we've had this season that we gained something from was vs Palace. Which was the same game that Andre Mariner and the VAR team decided they needed to even up by picking Casemiro grabbing someone's collar out of a 20 man scuffle full of pushes, grabs and slaps and give him a red card. The same Andre Mariner that went against protocol yesterday and asked the Ref to review a decision that he'd already seen and booked someone for, which wasn't a clear and obvious error.

You are making me depress

 

[Listar]

This is a bit too Bluemoon-ish for me. The inconsistency is infuriating but if you visit the message board of all 20 teams in the league, I can guarantee each of those fanbases are totally convinced it is them who are being massively unfavoured and unfairly treated by officials. If everyone believes they are the ones who get the unfair calls, then …

Nope not all referees. It’s a selected few that’s always seem to give opposition the benefit of a doubt but penalise United for the same. There’s a reason why we hate Andre Marriner so much.

 

[cyberman]

This is a bit too Bluemoon-ish for me. The inconsistency is infuriating but if you visit the message board of all 20 teams in the league, I can guarantee each of those fanbases are totally convinced it is them who are being massively unfavoured and unfairly treated by officials. If everyone believes they are the ones who get the unfair calls, then …

But surely where there’s smoke there fire?
Another poster pointed out Taylor has booked United players twice as many times as opposition players over the last 10 games. He reffed us. It’s too much

 

[Listar]

exactly.
How the rashford one wasn’t highlighted to the referee is mind boggling.
That is precisely the purpose of var and yet for reasons only known to marriner he chose not to advise the referee he had made a clear and obvious error.

I’m pretty sure most of us know the reason I wouldn’t be heartbroken if he never officiate any United matches in the future.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

That's not a red.

The more replays / photos I see the more obvious it is that this shouldn’t have been a red.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The more replays / photos I see the more obvious it is that this shouldn’t have been a red.

Yup. And I was already convinced it wasn't a red card.

 

[Member 125398]

If they are not “overhead” then … yeah. The overhead kick ushered in by the likes of Pele ONLY works in light of things like high boot rules because the players foot is linear and essentially takes the space their own head was moments before.

If you let people just randomly spin and karate kick … then you will have worse injuries than Azpi’s.

Havertz is lucky he doesn’t have a cracked sternum from yesterday.

Losing a goal here or there sucks, but having players put in serious harms way is much, much, much worse.

Felix is lucky his leg isn’t shattered, and … it… was .. obvious. And we didn’t even get a foul call, because if he admitted he saw it, it would have to be a red.

I honestly don’t know if this type of targeting is allowed against other teams because I don’t have time to watch every game played. But I’m pretty effing sick of it happening to mine.

It was brutally obvious and bad, and it will continue to get worse if something isnt done by the FA.

In the NFL you can miss things like pass interference, or holding, but if you miss enough “dangerous” plays like targeting, you can face suspension from officiating.

Didn't see the Chelsea game this weekend but the clips on twitter show some very baffling decisions and I agree with what you say about them. The overhead kick was not a red though.

 

[Ole'sgunnarwin]

I think we are getting a bit hard done by this season but not as much as people are saying.

What winds me up is the reason refs go to check the screen. Its not for 50/50 calls like the handball incident yesterday. They only go when they're 99% sure they'll change their original decision. Since VAR came in I can't think of any time a ref stuck to the original decision. Its a waste of time, everyone knows what's gonna happen.

 

[WeePat]

But surely where there’s smoke there fire?
Another poster pointed out Taylor has booked United players twice as many times as opposition players over the last 10 games. He reffed us. It’s too much

I'm just saying, every fanbase is saying exactly the same. Chelsea fans are convinced this same Anthony Taylor, that you think is making a disproportionate amount wrong calls against you, is heavily biased against us, so much so someone created a silly petition with a laundry list of incidents listed of wrong calls that have cost Chelsea over the years, including a couple of cup finals. I'm not saying United aren't on the wrong end of bad calls, of course you are. I'm just pushing back against the idea that United are being specifically targeted or there is a special bias against United.

 

[kouroux]

Can't the dumbass broadcasters Replay footbage without slow motion ? It plays massive role into the perception you can have of any situation

 

[cyberman]

I'm just saying, every fanbase is saying exactly the same. Chelsea fans are convinced this same Anthony Taylor, that you think is making a disproportionate amount wrong calls against you, is heavily biased against us, so much so someone created a silly petition with a laundry list of incidents listed of wrong calls that have cost Chelsea over the years, including a couple of cup finals. I'm not saying United aren't on the wrong end of bad calls, of course you are. I'm just pushing back against the idea that United are being specifically targeted or there is a special bias against United.

There’s a clear line when we were getting fair, or even more than fair, VAR calls to when Klopp and Pep complained about it while pointing it out.
It’s gone to shit since then. I genuinely can’t think of the last on field penalty call we’ve gotten. Every single decision that has to be made gets ignored by the ref. I’d understand if we got pens that were overturned etc but not to have one pen call called in the first place is ridiculous.
I don’t think it’s a conspiracy but it’s 100 percent the refs showing they won’t be intimidated by the biggest team in England and they get to show how fair and balanced they are.
Honestly, I watch every game and I cannot remember the last decision we got that was overturned by VAR never mind penalties. It points to referees being over cautious with us which fecks the team over. Any decision that’s anywhere close in our favour and it’s simply not given.

 

[Dan_F]

I was all for technology. In other sports I watch it helps a great deal because everyone involved is competent and there are clear rules and guidelines helping them.

This is absolute mince now though in football. I haven't a clue what the rules are anymore and you don't even know what is going to be looked at / recommended / decision be taken at any point. It's killing the game, and there needs to be a serious revamp of how the use VAR in the summer otherwise I'd just do away with it bar from offsides.

Came in here to say pretty much the same thing, although I didn’t think there was any way they could implement it as badly as it has been done.

The closest example we have in terms of subjectivity is rugby. Being able to hear the TMO takes away a lot of doubt of why a decision has been made, although I’m not sure it’s as simple in football as the game is usually continuing while VAR checks. If we think about the Rashford one yesterday, we don’t know if the VAR even saw the tap, or if was because he was going out of play, or they felt the contact wasn’t enough. It would make a big difference.

I’m basically at the point where I’m happy to sacrifice the odd shocker, think Porto or that Chelsea offside, to have football back to where it was 10 years ago. But maybe I’m remembering it more fondly now.

 

[stevoc]

I agree with this

I don't genuinely think there is any corruption in the sense that there are back alley meetings and they're out to "get" United.

My thought is that the officials know that if they award United a decision, they are very likely to be in the spotlight. We see when United get a controversial decision, even if it's technically correct but harsh, that the media/pundits will review it 678 times over the next 2 weeks. United get bad decisions against them every single week and nothing gets made of it. Imagine the difference if Southampton got that red card, didn't get those penalties etc. You'd have really impassioned pundits crying blue murder. Very quiet when it's United getting dicked by these same calls.

I think we're simply flawed by being, by far, the biggest club in England. Which naturally translates to the most hated. And referees are afraid of the spotlight being on them.

I don't think there's any organised conspiracy either but Referees are humans and will have their biases conscience or otherwise. And I've watched football long enough to notice a pattern that certain refs feck over certain teams more often than not.

 

[stevoc]

This is a bit too Bluemoon-ish for me. The inconsistency is infuriating but if you visit the message board of all 20 teams in the league, I can guarantee each of those fanbases are totally convinced it is them who are being massively unfavoured and unfairly treated by officials. If everyone believes they are the ones who get the unfair calls, then …

Just because every set of fans believe they're being fecked over by the refs it doesn't mean that one or more teams aren't actually being fecked over by the refs though.

I'm sure even during some of the infamous match fixing scandals and Ref bribing incidents over the last 40 years that the fans of those teams benefitting from dodgy the decisions still thought they were being hard done by. That's just the nature of being a football fan.