Today head to head : Adrien Rabiot vs Kenneth Taylor = 2 left foot cm players. Is Kenneth Taylor good enough for Manchester United?

Unitedlife

Full Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2015
Messages
456
Put it this way, Lothar Matthäus is the only midfielder I'd pick over Bryan Robson.
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

Full Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Messages
1,044
I think this thread shows that once a player has a career that gets to a certain level of accomplishment, and all-time great status, a mentality opens up in many where it becomes perceived as absolutely laughable to even compare them in any way whatsoever to many other players that were elite/great at some point, but didn't end up having a career that would be considered more than excellent, "generational great".,or maybe an up and coming big talent that is doing well, but still has a long way to go. Even though the other player might actually appear to be very close, or even better in various regards individually, so even if there's no debate about who gets ranked above the other overall, it can make for an interesting comparison/discussion.

They'll just get utterly mocked instead.

Matthaus didn't actually widely secure that GOAT tier midfield status until almost 30 ,with the cumulative success of winning the 88-89 scudetto with Inter, then most importantly the 1990 World Cup win ,and a further great 90/91 season with a Uefa Cup win. He then had a poor last season with Inter, got injured, sold and that was it for him as a great midfielder. by 94-95 he had to change to the ever reliable old-mans position of sweeper, which tbf he did very well and that added to his overall legacy.

Before that 88-91 run, he was established by the mid-80s as one of the best german and european midfielders, especially after the 86 final, but not necessarily clearly ahead of the big talents of various other countries, to the point there wouldn't be lots of arguing around it if we'd had the internet back then. He wasn't some Pele/Maradona level phenom that was locked in for expected all-time greatness from very early in their career. When playing in West Germany alone he was often competing with some other domestic players as far as being considered the best/most talented/most effective. He never won the player of the year while playing there during the '80s, and seems to have made the kicker team of the season three times in nine seasons...which is really good, but not the mark of someone that was already an all-time great.

Pre-88/89, i think you could compare him to Michael Ballack during the 00s, but not as dominant/relied on individually, as W.Germany had a great generation with various other players that were seen as around the same level, depending on the season. Like Ballack, he'd been part of various nearly man teams: Bayern losing the Cup Winners Cup semi- final to Everton, the European Cup final second half collapse against Porto, and a couple of quarter-final losses to Anderlecht and Real Madrid. He'd been matched, or outshone by a bunch of other very good to great '80s midfielders in most of these games.

Internationally he was still a bit-part player for 82, the was part of the failure of 84, and the quite heavily domestically criticised (including by their own manager Beckenbauer) for playing bad football 86 team. that side were underwhelming for most of the tournament, despite a great squad, and made very difficult work of arguably the easiest R16/quarter final draw possible, They then draw an obviously more tired France in the semi-final, who had faced tougher competition, including very intense games vs USSR and Brazil. His performance in the final against Maradona was a big boost to his reputation, but it somewhat obscured that he had not looked like a midfielder in the class of Beckenbauer, Netzer or Overath for most of the earlier games, or any better than some of the other currently highly regarded midfielders at the tournament. Nor had that W.Germany looked as good as any of their previous world cup sides going back to '66. '88 was a similar story, at his peak now and the captain; plays well, but not any better than various other midfielders.

Don't get me wrong, i think he eventually earned his reputation as one of the goat midfielders, and was an excellent player, but he's not some footballing superman, or extemely rare talent like Pele or Messi that it is pointless to compare most players to. He was more of an example of the opposite, that you can still eventually get to that top-tier even if you don't have an extravagantly superior skillset to quite a few of your contemporaries. Especially if you're from one of the big international football countries, you're sometimes only a few tournaments away from a big jump in regard, even later in career. Likewise, not hard at all to see just a few seasons/tournaments going slightly different and him ending up being viewed as just a top 80s midfielder, not an all-time great.

I think if you're comparing a great player with a finished career with a current one that many think has a chance of ending up great, then you should look at what the older player had done at the same age, and then watch some games of comparable importance. De Jong compared to Matthaus with both up to 25 actually is interesting, and arguably not unfavourable to Frenkie in some ways, but i think he's going to have to rely more on club success for any case at greatness; Netherlands don't have the talent or depth to play below their capabilities and still blunder through big parts of tournaments like W.Germany did in 86.

btw, Matthaus goal record can be potentially misleading. He was a prolific supporting scorer from open play, but not quite to the well out of the ordinary level for a box-to-box midfielder that a quick glance at his numbers might have some believing. He was a penalty specialist, and once you account for them, most of those 10+ league seasons come down into single figures, with quite a few European tournament/international penalties as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Invictus

Earvin Johnson

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
131
Supports
Fc Barcelona
If you think Frenkie De Jong is a complete central midfield and football player. Then it’s until you discover Lothar Matthaus. One of the central midfield GOAT in football history. For me Lothar Matthäus was a complete football player as you can get. We will come back to his football ability later.

First I will do a short presentation of this German and football legend.

Matthaus was born in Erlangen, in that time was calling West Germany. In 1961. Like Frenkie De Jong he is a central midfield playmaker and like De Jong has been play as sweeper, a position in the back line. He was a box to box cm player.

His biggest trophy and silverware were. 1 time European champion for West Germany in 1980, as 19 of age. 1 time world champion for West Germany in 1990 and 1 time Ballon D’or winner in 1990.

Matthaus was Diego Maradona biggest rival. They met each other in the world cup final in 1990. Were West Germany beat Argentina 1-0. So if it wasn’t for Matthaus. Maradona would had another world cup trophy on his track record.

So today Frenkie De Jong is up against 1 time world champion, 1 time Ballon D’or winner and A cm GOAT in football history. De Jong is up against the best of the best of a complete cm and football player. How good is really Frenkie De Jong?



First we take a close look of Lothar Matthaus.

His football abilities in visual description :






A short paragraph of his abilities from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothar_Matthäus



A versatile and complete player, Matthäus is regarded as one of the greatest midfielders of all time, and was renowned for his perceptive passing, positional sense, well-timed tackling, as well as powerful shooting. During his career, he usually played as a box to box midfielder, although late in his career he played as a sweeper.

Yes, we can say Matthaus was good in everything. Reason why is a complete cm and football player.



Now. The comparison he is up against. Many will consider Frenkie De Jong as one of the best creative cm player, at this moment.



Frenkie De Jong’s visual description:




A videoclip more of his finish skill:








+ Head to head comparison :



Dribbling ability : Matthaus < Frenkie De Jong

I think De Jong is slightly better than Matthaus. In that way I mean it is more difficult to take the ball from De Jong than Matthaus.



Passing and combination skills : Matthaus = De Jong

There are not so big difference. So I rate them equal good



Shooting and finish skill : Matthaus > De Jong

Here Matthaus was clearly better than De Jong. Special Matthaus long power shoot.




So sum up and conclusion is. I think and found Frenkie De Jong was more dribbler and passing focus. Compare to Matthaus who was scoring and finish focus. Matthaus was more thinking scoring, scoring and scoring.

With this focusing minded. It lead to and the stats is showing that Matthaus has more goals in his game than De Jong.

Matthaus goals stats:

Bayern Munich : 113 matches and 57 goals

Inter Milan : 115 matches and 40 goals

West Germany/Germany: 150 matches and 23 goals



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothar_Matthäus



De Jong goals stats :

Ajax : 57 matches and 4 goals

Barcelona : 122 matches and 10 goals

Netherlands : 50 goals and 2 goals



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenkie_de_Jong





To become complete and to demand a lot from a creative central midfield player. That he shall has goals in his game and score more often. Then I will rate Matthaus is more complete cm and football player than De Jong.

But we shall take in counting that defend and opponent is more open than compare to today defending. Today defending is more well organize, more compact and park the bus more. In others words. The today is more tight.

Still. We can’t take away Matthaus long power shoot ability. I think Matthaus is of not the best, one of the best long shoot ever in football history.

With a higher potential goalscorer ability. Even De Jong is slightly a better dribbler. But as a football player. The end product ability is most important . Helping you team to score enough goals to win the match. Matthaus has higher match winning and end product ability than De Jong.

With those finish and end product ability I will rate Matthaus over De Jong. De Jong is not as Matthaus football level.

And beside football ability. Matthaus is a natural born and true leader on the pitch. The one who lift the rest of his team. So clearly. As a full packet football player. At both peak and over a long period. Matthaus is clearly above Frenkie De Jong.

If the point scala is from 1-5. 5 = the top and highest level and rating.



Matthaus will get the top rating 5.

Frenkie De Jong I will give 4.5. 4 point is very good. De Jong is the level between very good and the best level. If De Jong add more goals to his game. Scoring goals more often. Then I will give him the reste 0.5 point.

Clearly Matthaus had a higher and a more complete level than De Jong. Both as CB/Sweeper. Start from the deep, then run from box to box. The difference I see like I mention above is. The defend is more open before than now. But again. De Jong is not know for long power shoot.



But in the end. De Jong is up against a CM GOAT. One time Ballon D’Or winner and one time world champion as captain. It get to be a gap and difference between those 2 really good cm and football players.


And to find out how high level Frenkie De Jong and today’s football player are at. I will always try to compare them against the best comparison in theirs positions. And I don’t think I would find a better and more complete central midfield player than Lotthar Matthaus. Complete as you can get. A GOAT and football legend.

I didn't read all this mate, even as a Barça fan I wouldn't dare put De Jong on the same level as Matthaus, whats the point of the comparison? :lol:
 

Earvin Johnson

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
131
Supports
Fc Barcelona
I think this thread shows that once a player has a career that gets to a certain level of accomplishment, and all-time great status, a mentality opens up in many where it becomes perceived as absolutely laughable to even compare them in any way whatsoever to many other players that were elite/great at some point, but didn't end up having a career that would be considered more than excellent, "generational great".,or maybe an up and coming big talent that is doing well, but still has a long way to go. Even though the other player might actually appear to be very close, or even better in various regards individually, so even if there's no debate about who gets ranked above the other overall, it can make for an interesting comparison/discussion.

They'll just get utterly mocked instead.

Matthaus didn't actually widely secure that GOAT tier midfield status until almost 30 ,with the cumulative success of winning the 88-89 scudetto with Inter, then most importantly the 1990 World Cup win ,and a further great 90/91 season with a Uefa Cup win. He then had a poor last season with Inter, got injured, sold and that was it for him as a great midfielder. by 94-95 he had to change to the ever reliable old-mans position of sweeper, which tbf he did very well and that added to his overall legacy.

Before that 88-91 run, he was established by the mid-80s as one of the best german and european midfielders, especially after the 86 final, but not necessarily clearly ahead of the big talents of various other countries, to the point there wouldn't be lots of arguing around it if we'd had the internet back then. He wasn't some Pele/Maradona level phenom that was locked in for expected all-time greatness from very early in their career. When playing in West Germany alone he was often competing with some other domestic players as far as being considered the best/most talented/most effective. He never won the player of the year while playing there during the '80s, and seems to have made the kicker team of the season three times in nine seasons...which is really good, but not the mark of someone that was already an all-time great.

Pre-88/89, i think you could compare him to Michael Ballack during the 00s, but not as dominant/relied on individually, as W.Germany had a great generation with various other players that were seen as around the same level, depending on the season. Like Ballack, he'd been part of various nearly man teams: Bayern losing the Cup Winners Cup semi- final to Everton, the European Cup final second half collapse against Porto, and a couple of quarter-final losses to Anderlecht and Real Madrid. He'd been matched, or outshone by a bunch of other very good to great '80s midfielders in most of these games.

Internationally he was still a bit-part player for 82, the was part of the failure of 84, and the quite heavily domestically criticised (including by their own manager Beckenbauer) for playing bad football 86 team. that side were underwhelming for most of the tournament, despite a great squad, and made very difficult work of arguably the easiest R16/quarter final draw possible, They then draw an obviously more tired France in the semi-final, who had faced tougher competition, including very intense games vs USSR and Brazil. His performance in the final against Maradona was a big boost to his reputation, but it somewhat obscured that he had not looked like a midfielder in the class of Beckenbauer, Netzer or Overath for most of the earlier games, or any better than some of the other currently highly regarded midfielders at the tournament. Nor had that W.Germany looked as good as any of their previous world cup sides going back to '66. '88 was a similar story, at his peak now and the captain; plays well, but not any better than various other midfielders.

Don't get me wrong, i think he eventually earned his reputation as one of the goat midfielders, and was an excellent player, but he's not some footballing superman, or extemely rare talent like Pele or Messi that it is pointless to compare most players to. He was more of an example of the opposite, that you can still eventually get to that top-tier even if you don't have an extravagantly superior skillset to quite a few of your contemporaries. Especially if you're from one of the big international football countries, you're sometimes only a few tournaments away from a big jump in regard, even later in career. Likewise, not hard at all to see just a few seasons/tournaments going slightly different and him ending up being viewed as just a top 80s midfielder, not an all-time great.

I think if you're comparing a great player with a finished career with a current one that many think has a chance of ending up great, then you should look at what the older player had done at the same age, and then watch some games of comparable importance. De Jong compared to Matthaus with both up to 25 actually is interesting, and arguably not unfavourable to Frenkie in some ways, but i think he's going to have to rely more on club success for any case at greatness; Netherlands don't have the talent or depth to play below their capabilities and still blunder through big parts of tournaments like W.Germany did in 86.

btw, Matthaus goal record can be potentially misleading. He was a prolific supporting scorer from open play, but not quite to the well out of the ordinary level for a box-to-box midfielder that a quick glance at his numbers might have some believing. He was a penalty specialist, and once you account for them, most of those 10+ league seasons come down into single figures, with quite a few European tournament/international penalties as well.
That was a very interesting read thank you, I think my main gripe with this comparison is that FDJ is for now a lot more style than substance. He's yet to produce a world class season with Barcelona and It's quite clear that Pedri has a lot more influence than him in the current system. So comparing him to someone with an all time great status is a bit silly to me while he isn't even the best midfielder in his team for now.
 

Fortitude

TV/Monitor Expert
Scout
Joined
Jul 10, 2004
Messages
22,401
Location
Inside right
I think this thread shows that once a player has a career that gets to a certain level of accomplishment, and all-time great status, a mentality opens up in many where it becomes perceived as absolutely laughable to even compare them in any way whatsoever to many other players that were elite/great at some point, but didn't end up having a career that would be considered more than excellent, "generational great".,or maybe an up and coming big talent that is doing well, but still has a long way to go. Even though the other player might actually appear to be very close, or even better in various regards individually, so even if there's no debate about who gets ranked above the other overall, it can make for an interesting comparison/discussion.

They'll just get utterly mocked instead.

Matthaus didn't actually widely secure that GOAT tier midfield status until almost 30 ,with the cumulative success of winning the 88-89 scudetto with Inter, then most importantly the 1990 World Cup win ,and a further great 90/91 season with a Uefa Cup win. He then had a poor last season with Inter, got injured, sold and that was it for him as a great midfielder. by 94-95 he had to change to the ever reliable old-mans position of sweeper, which tbf he did very well and that added to his overall legacy.

Before that 88-91 run, he was established by the mid-80s as one of the best german and european midfielders, especially after the 86 final, but not necessarily clearly ahead of the big talents of various other countries, to the point there wouldn't be lots of arguing around it if we'd had the internet back then. He wasn't some Pele/Maradona level phenom that was locked in for expected all-time greatness from very early in their career. When playing in West Germany alone he was often competing with some other domestic players as far as being considered the best/most talented/most effective. He never won the player of the year while playing there during the '80s, and seems to have made the kicker team of the season three times in nine seasons...which is really good, but not the mark of someone that was already an all-time great.

Pre-88/89, i think you could compare him to Michael Ballack during the 00s, but not as dominant/relied on individually, as W.Germany had a great generation with various other players that were seen as around the same level, depending on the season. Like Ballack, he'd been part of various nearly man teams: Bayern losing the Cup Winners Cup semi- final to Everton, the European Cup final second half collapse against Porto, and a couple of quarter-final losses to Anderlecht and Real Madrid. He'd been matched, or outshone by a bunch of other very good to great '80s midfielders in most of these games.

Internationally he was still a bit-part player for 82, the was part of the failure of 84, and the quite heavily domestically criticised (including by their own manager Beckenbauer) for playing bad football 86 team. that side were underwhelming for most of the tournament, despite a great squad, and made very difficult work of arguably the easiest R16/quarter final draw possible, They then draw an obviously more tired France in the semi-final, who had faced tougher competition, including very intense games vs USSR and Brazil. His performance in the final against Maradona was a big boost to his reputation, but it somewhat obscured that he had not looked like a midfielder in the class of Beckenbauer, Netzer or Overath for most of the earlier games, or any better than some of the other currently highly regarded midfielders at the tournament. Nor had that W.Germany looked as good as any of their previous world cup sides going back to '66. '88 was a similar story, at his peak now and the captain; plays well, but not any better than various other midfielders.

Don't get me wrong, i think he eventually earned his reputation as one of the goat midfielders, and was an excellent player, but he's not some footballing superman, or extemely rare talent like Pele or Messi that it is pointless to compare most players to. He was more of an example of the opposite, that you can still eventually get to that top-tier even if you don't have an extravagantly superior skillset to quite a few of your contemporaries. Especially if you're from one of the big international football countries, you're sometimes only a few tournaments away from a big jump in regard, even later in career. Likewise, not hard at all to see just a few seasons/tournaments going slightly different and him ending up being viewed as just a top 80s midfielder, not an all-time great.

I think if you're comparing a great player with a finished career with a current one that many think has a chance of ending up great, then you should look at what the older player had done at the same age, and then watch some games of comparable importance. De Jong compared to Matthaus with both up to 25 actually is interesting, and arguably not unfavourable to Frenkie in some ways, but i think he's going to have to rely more on club success for any case at greatness; Netherlands don't have the talent or depth to play below their capabilities and still blunder through big parts of tournaments like W.Germany did in 86.

btw, Matthaus goal record can be potentially misleading. He was a prolific supporting scorer from open play, but not quite to the well out of the ordinary level for a box-to-box midfielder that a quick glance at his numbers might have some believing. He was a penalty specialist, and once you account for them, most of those 10+ league seasons come down into single figures, with quite a few European tournament/international penalties as well.
This is a very good post, as expected, but the problem is you're looking at it from the top down rather than bottom up, as in, you'll see plenty of posts questioning what De Jong has done in his career to draw comparison with Matthaus, and I'd bet if he'd carried his Ajax level through to this point in his career, there'd be some grounds for comparison or at least discussion.

Let's remove Matthaus' ascendency and then ask the question again; does what De Jong has then done compare? As footballers, does Matthaus' level dip so much as to be considered a poorer player or rather one who we can assume greater success will not be in their grasp at a later date? At what point does De Jong and his skilset supplant this iteration of Matthaus and what he offered a team - foundations have to be there to become so great, after all.

Besides that, the seemingly random nature of comparison between a goal-shy, deeper-seating midfielder who has little desire to even shoot and perhaps the most all-action, driving midfielder who tried his damnedest to affect play from CM we've seen, is going to confuse and entertain from the outset. Compare type to type, at the very least, no? Or parse all of the dynamic attacking seasons from Matthaus' career and then try again to compare them, if you must.

How much overlap is there between them at any time to compare, actually? It could be better argued they'd feature in the same midfield performing different tasks for the team than be directly compared to one another.

De Jong's dire scoring rate reduces the pool of midfielders - even of type - to compare him to, instead elements of his game then should supposedly come to the fore, so there is the angle you approached the subject from, but there's also the diametrically opposed one, too.
 

Glorio

Full Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
4,491
Well I read it, and I don't want be mean but it's a very surface level analysis.
Oh the alacrity and impunity to dare question the nuanced genius @LuckyScout78! :eek::nono:


Now I get "PS I am not into discussion = I won't respond" it all makes complete sense now. Thank you once again for opening my eyes @LuckyScout78 - this site is not worthy of you :drool:
 

HisNameIsEarl

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 30, 2020
Messages
76
To be frank, this feels like an attempt to praise de Jong, hidden behind a wall of text that pretends to be an objective assessment. The implicit message is "FdJ is close to a legend of the game", which would be debatable as an open claim. Instead its masked as a comparison, and simply assuming both are on a comparable level. The intention might be to turn that assumption into a fact, while avoiding the debate.
 

thepolice123

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
12,179
TBF this has the potential to be an interesting discussion, he is just comparing their skillsets. My main gripe is that they are not even the same type of players.

Someone like Valverde or Goretzka will make a better comparison.
 

ThierryHenry14

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Messages
4,040
Supports
Arsenal
What has FDJ achieved in his career so far to be compared with Matthaus? When FDJ win the world cup for Netherland and also win the Ballon d'Or then I can understand.
 

giorno

boob novice
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
26,143
Supports
Real Madrid
My favourite anecdote about Matthaus - besides the one of him lying to his wife about team meetings to go bang his mistress in Switzerland - told by Bergomi about Matthaus walking into the dressing room before an important game and seeing his teammates looking tense, telling them not to worry, he'll score the 1-0 in the 20th minute and then he'll set up a second at the end of the first half and they'll cruise from there. And then actually did it
 

Red the Bear

Something less generic
Joined
Aug 26, 2021
Messages
9,127
So did you lot actually reach a consensus on who's better, that ain't gonna be easy.
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

Full Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Messages
1,044
This is a very good post, as expected, but the problem is you're looking at it from the top down rather than bottom up, as in, you'll see plenty of posts questioning what De Jong has done in his career to draw comparison with Matthaus, and I'd bet if he'd carried his Ajax level through to this point in his career, there'd be some grounds for comparison or at least discussion.

Let's remove Matthaus' ascendency and then ask the question again; does what De Jong has then done compare? As footballers, does Matthaus' level dip so much as to be considered a poorer player or rather one who we can assume greater success will not be in their grasp at a later date? At what point does De Jong and his skilset supplant this iteration of Matthaus and what he offered a team - foundations have to be there to become so great, after all.

Besides that, the seemingly random nature of comparison between a goal-shy, deeper-seating midfielder who has little desire to even shoot and perhaps the most all-action, driving midfielder who tried his damnedest to affect play from CM we've seen, is going to confuse and entertain from the outset. Compare type to type, at the very least, no? Or parse all of the dynamic attacking seasons from Matthaus' career and then try again to compare them, if you must.

How much overlap is there between them at any time to compare, actually? It could be better argued they'd feature in the same midfield performing different tasks for the team than be directly compared to one another.

De Jong's dire scoring rate reduces the pool of midfielders - even of type - to compare him to, instead elements of his game then should supposedly come to the fore, so there is the angle you approached the subject from, but there's also the diametrically opposed one, too.
I wouldn't have thought to compare them either, especially not in simplistic overall head to head manner that luckyscout did, but that post isn't so much about De Jong vs Matthaus directly, as it is between the way people often go about comparisons/discussions between players that established themselves as more than just your typical "generational or club great", and ones that ended up on that level or slightly below, or are current players that had a lot of people think have great potential, but aren't there yet.

Too many payers get to a certain level of reputation/success and that leap into sacred cow territory then occurs, where they become closed off to comparison with almost all other players in their position (broadly speaking), Most discussion will be met with plenty of "he's nowhere remotely close in any way" sort of posts, even if it's just a partial comparison of stylistic qualities, or periods of their careers etc..

it's just the way football gets talked about online, and i get that, it's been the same since the usenet days, but it still bothers me sometimes because for a lot of those greats, it's elevating their individual ability well beyond how their career actually played out, and usually fails badly to reflect the deep talent pool that football has. Most have a group of positional competitors that will be fairly rated close/equal to them at different times, or are of similar talent in their own generation (or even league) alone; they'll have to work hard to secure that eventual higher status and maybe also have some good fortune regarding injuries,transfers, and maybe also competitors with just as much talent not having as much dedication . The players that were just so good that they genuinely didn't have more than 1 or 2 others remotely near them in productivity or talent throughout their career, and were seen as all but locked in for all time greatness from early on, the ones that actually merit that sort of hyperbole...imo, you can probably count them in single digits.

tbh, this maybe wasn't the most suited thread to get into all that, but Matthaus is one of the ideal all-time great level of reputation players to make the point with.
 

giorno

boob novice
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
26,143
Supports
Real Madrid
tbh, this maybe wasn't the most suited thread to get into all that, but Matthaus is one of the ideal all-time great level of reputation players to make the point with.
Success and peak matter and his have very few equals in history among midfielders
 

ROFLUTION

Full Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
7,546
Location
Denmark
Sometimes I like to believe Fontaine has moved on in his life and has become LuckyScout78
 

Fortitude

TV/Monitor Expert
Scout
Joined
Jul 10, 2004
Messages
22,401
Location
Inside right
I wouldn't have thought to compare them either, especially not in simplistic overall head to head manner that luckyscout did, but that post isn't so much about De Jong vs Matthaus directly, as it is between the way people often go about comparisons/discussions between players that established themselves as more than just your typical "generational or club great", and ones that ended up on that level or slightly below, or are current players that had a lot of people think have great potential, but aren't there yet.

Too many payers get to a certain level of reputation/success and that leap into sacred cow territory then occurs, where they become closed off to comparison with almost all other players in their position (broadly speaking), Most discussion will be met with plenty of "he's nowhere remotely close in any way" sort of posts, even if it's just a partial comparison of stylistic qualities, or periods of their careers etc..

it's just the way football gets talked about online, and i get that, it's been the same since the usenet days, but it still bothers me sometimes because for a lot of those greats, it's elevating their individual ability well beyond how their career actually played out, and usually fails badly to reflect the deep talent pool that football has. Most have a group of positional competitors that will be fairly rated close/equal to them at different times, or are of similar talent in their own generation (or even league) alone; they'll have to work hard to secure that eventual higher status and maybe also have some good fortune regarding injuries,transfers, and maybe also competitors with just as much talent not having as much dedication. The players that were just so good that they genuinely didn't have more than 1 or 2 others remotely near them in productivity or talent throughout their career, and were seen as all but locked in for all time greatness from early on, the ones that actually merit that sort of hyperbole...imo, you can probably count them in single digits.

tbh, this maybe wasn't the most suited thread to get into all that, but Matthaus is one of the ideal all-time great level of reputation players to make the point with.
I get where you're coming from, and from the broader aspect, can agree that once a player becomes transcendental, they will mostly never be observed as a whole again, but isn't that part and parcel of all sport, and perhaps life itself?

The journey may be picked up on but the destination is what people are most interested in.

Luka Modric is perhaps the perfect archetype of what you're saying (on this board at least); dig far enough back through the archives, and he was a figure of ridicule deigned not good enough to even be bought by the-then high-flying Manchester United. Fast forward 15yrs and the only midfielders he's ever spoken about in regards to comparison are Xavi, Iniesta and other certified all-time greats, with discussion as to whether he's literally the best midfielder of all-time abounding. He's not held in the same universal esteem as Matthaus, but I'm sure a comparison between he and De Jong would be seen in a similar light (mirth inducing).

Your initial post outlines Matthaus' ascendency, but as I stated: there has to be foundations there for such obscene leaps to take place. Let's cite the triumvirate of Platini, Zico and Maradona and how history has treated them as opposed to the reality of what the landscape looked like throughout the body of their work up to June 1986. Maradona may have had the talent and the plaudits (most expensive player), but no trophies of worth to back him in Europe; he was not seen in the untouchable light now observed between them and reserved for him, but, the talent to go on to do what he did was always evident and undeniable, which was my point about Matthaus.

Even if he didn't go into overdrive and deliver as he did, he was still a player with the attributes and potential to do so. So even then, stripped of what he became, is there any merit in the comparison between skillset and body of work between someone like that and the De Jong who has been mostly underwhelming thus far in his career? Ironically, it is he who looked like a potential all-timer straight out the traps, with his plaudits for the body of work put forth at Ajax immediately elevating him to one of the best midfielders in the world, reflected also in his transfer fee, wage and the select few clubs even capable of vying for his services. As I said previously: if De Jong had continued along that assured path to greatness, this thread would be an open debate and for good reason.

Not looking too deeply into this for a moment, "Matthaus" and "De Jong" in a head-to-head comparison is so off the cuff, luckyscout that it was bound to get a reaction, and again, even if one may be seen as the bar and pinnacle of an archetype, it's more on the lesser of the two being so underwhelming that I think generates comments and clicks as opposed to the perceived godliness of Matthaus. It's also a matter of expectation: Matthaus-esque; Robson-esque; Rijkaard-eque, you just don't hear such terms thrown about because you're essentially setting the candidate up for failure 99% of the time as the bar and expectation of what they are up against is set and is most likely going to lead to detraction. If you want to make a point about De Jong should it really be done against Matthaus with the burdens that is accompanied with?
 

arthurka

Full Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2010
Messages
18,662
Location
Rectum
A behemoth vs a delicate flower. Loddar wins this all day every day. De Jong a better passer, give me a break. Loddar had all the passing range in the world while little Frenk moves the ball a long quite nicely.

Please do Firminho vs Del Piero next.
 

LuckyScout78

Full Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
993
Both of Matthaus and Frenkie De Jong are not totally same type of player. But both of them are ball carrier from the defend to the attack. Both of them has play as CB. Ball playing CB and CM. In same category.


But like melodies. None of football players and human are 100 % same. Close, but will never be the same. Things and persons always is changing and never the same.
 

LuckyScout78

Full Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
993
For those who have following from late 1990 and early 2000. Ex Brazil’s and Inter’s legend. He was a beast of CB. He was super aggressive, robust and really hard to beat and past one vs one.

He became one time world champion with Brazil in 2002. And won the treble with Inter Milano season 09/10.

From I start watching football. I will rate Lucio one GOAT CB I have ever seen. He had everything. Lucio was known for his long power shot when he was playing for Bayer Leverkusen. He scored many long shot and free kick goals.

Today I will head Lucio up against the upcoming really good CB in Kim Min Jae. Playing Napoli and South Korea.

So how good is Kim Min Jae? Is Kim on Lucio world class level as a CB?

Now we take a closer look of Kim Min Jae. Compare and head up against one of CB GOAT in football history. In category Beast vs Beast.



First I will put up a visual description of Lucio:





We can see how aggressive Lucio was. The drive, the energy and the passion. Always give 100 %. Lucio had the fear factor as a CB. A CB with big authority. We easily could observed it. His presence on the pitch. A authority of a leader and warrior on the pitch.

Beside being a really solid and good defender. We can observed that he was really good and composure on the ball too.

And in the end of video. We could see his long power shot and freekicks goals. Screamers.



Now, about his comparison in Kim Min Jae. Visual description ;







Kim like Lucio. Super aggressive. Has that beast mode and mentality. Right behind the back of opponent players and good with interception.

One on one ability is on top level too. And like Lucio, Kim is decent and good on the ball too. The basic ball skill. How you handle the ball. Like passing and make run forward with the ball. Not top level about running with the ball forward. But to be a CB is more than approved.





Now, let us head them up. I will compare them on the most important ability of defender. Not finish ability comparison. As a defend. Your main job is to protect and defend your goal. If a CBs is scoring goals. It is just a big big bonus for the team. Theirs main job is make the team hard to beat and score against = defend and protect the goal = helping keeping clean sheet.





Head vs Head comparison :



+ One on one ability, tackling and interception : Lucio = Kim = I rate them equal here. Not big difference. Both of them are super aggressive. They are both quick in the first metres/acceleration and the tackling is really good too. Top level both when it come to this ability.



+ Air ability : Lucio = Kim = equal good. Kim 190 cm height and Lucio 188 cm height. Nearly equal tall. Both are super athletic and theirs aggressiveness. Made them really strong in the air.



+ Passing and basic ball skill : Lucio > Kim = Here I think Lucio is slightly better than Kim on the ball. Lucio looked a bit more composure on the ball. But it’s only first full season I have observed Kim playing. So I think he can develop here. The balance of being super aggressive then to being calm with the ball. It is a really good ability to have.

But like above. As a CB and that tall. Kim is more than approved. We can check Kim ball stats from whoscored:



https://www.whoscored.com/Players/370912/Show/Kim-Min-Jae



Champion league: AvgP : 67.9. Complete pass 87.9 %

Serie A : AvgP : 80.4 Complete pass: 90.5 %.

Complete long ball : AvgP 2.5 – 3.5



So it is more than approved. CB’s use to play simple passes. So theirs passes stats will be higher than midfield attacking players. Good enough to help his team Napoli becoming Italian league champion really soon this season.

+ And when it come to fighting and winning mentality I rate them equal. Both Lucio does has a higher fear factor, authority and leadership mentality. We can easily observed Lucio personality. By his presence and look. That we are talking about a leader on the pitch and for the team. A leadership character and personality. But again, fighting mentality is equal good and top level mentality.





To sum up and answer the question how good is Kim Min Jae. Compare to the top and world class level of CB. I think personally from mine observed so far. My first full season of him. I don’t think Kim is so far from the top level of CB, in football history.

Right now Kim is maybe one of the best CB in the world. But compare to the top level it has been served earlier, in football history. When it come to category. Beast and complete as a CB. I think he might can improve his composure and coolness on the ball. But again. Kim has basic ball skill more than good enough to help his team becoming league champion in 4 biggest league in Europe and World.

And if Kim was playing for Brazil. Kim will rise his chance to win the World cup. Because South Korea was close. But I don’t think for rest of my life. South Korea will win the World Cup. So Lucio had that advantage. The level of teammates were higher with the Brazil nation team compare to South Korea.

But at club level. Kim has reach the top level on club level too. So Kim definitely close to Lucio and world class level.



Personally. I would rate Lucio as world class level. Top point out of 5. Kim Min Jae I will rate him at 4.5. Because as a full packet of a CB. Not only football ability. But include the mentality and character too. Lucio is more complete than Kim. But in the future and in few years and when Kim retire. We will see a Kim more closer and more complete as a CB.

I think Kim more than a very good level. Not world class level yet. But somewhere between very good and world class level.

Right now. Definitely world class fighting mentality with both. The passion, drive, aggressiveness were just top level, both.
 

LuckyScout78

Full Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
993
Today’s head to head is : Rabiot vs Kenneth Taylor = 2 really similar type of left foot central midfield player. And the question I now try to find the answer is.

Is Kenneth Taylor good enough for Manchester United? I will split it on 2 questions. Is he good enough for regular starting line up and if he is good enough for Manchester United squad?

And to find the answers. We will take a closer look of the players he is head up against.



As we know. According to the papers and the media. Adrien Rabiot was wanted by Manchester United last summer and was in negotiation with United. But couldn’t agree about the wage. So he ended up staying with Juventus.

And if you was wanted by Ten Hag and United. It means you are good enough for Manchester United. But I am not sure if Rabiot was seen as a regular starter and XI for United. Or to strength United squad depth.

My personally analysis and rating of Rabiot : He is more of a offensive player than a defensive player. So I will only talk about his best abilities. The ability on the ball and the creative. And I found and believe last summer he was on a very good and high basic football skill level.

I believe Rabiot is champion league level. For one of team from the top 5 league in Europe. And later in the world cup in Qatar. He was playing regular for a runner up team with France who lost to the final for Argentina. On penalty. So with that result for France and in general. Rabiot definitely had the football level that demand to battle for a regular starting spot at Manchester United.



And here is the link of papers and media about Rabiot linking to United:



https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/rabiot-transfer-man-utd-juventus-25535092



https://www.skysports.com/football/...ester-united-want-to-sign-juventus-midfielder






As I said above. I found and rate Rabiot as champion league level for a big club in that competition. Top 5 league in Europe.

A further description of him in words are. Rabiot is central midfield ball carry. A box to box cm player. He has goals in his game. Average 5-10 goals each season. And like I said above. He better in the offensive than in the defensive. In other words. Rabiot was and is better with the ball than without . Reasons why I rate him more as a offensive and creative cm player. Rather than a defensive cm player.

Now I will put a link to his video clip. A visual description. More precise than only with words. He is definitely a cm ball carry. A box to box cm player:










Now we take a closer look of Rabiot comparison. Kenneth Taylor from Ajax. Like I said above. Those 2 a similar type of player. The big different is the size and height.

Rabiot 1,88 m tall vs Taylor 1,82 m tall



And here is the visual description of Kenneth Taylor:











Now let us head to head them up: Rabiot vs Kenneth Taylor = 2 creative left foot cm player



+ Dribling skill : Rabiot = K Taylor = equal good or not big different. Due to footyStats.

Dribble success rate : Rabiot 57,14 % vs Taylor 53,19 %



+ Passing and combination skill : Rabiot < K Taylor = According to footystats and mine observing. K Taylor had higher successful passes. And nearly double as much passes than Rabiot. And from what I have been observing. Kenneth Taylor play often more deeper than Rabiot. It will naturally lead to that Taylor will be more involving in the build up more. The way Taylor is playing will make him touch the ball more than Rabiot. And in deeper position it will easier to have more successful passes. But I think they are close to equal good or Taylor is slightly better than Rabiot with the passing skill.

Pass completion rate : Rabiot 83,21 % vs Taylor 88, 93.

But Rabiot had a bit higher key passes rate : 1,02 per 90 mins vs Taylor 0.82 per 90 minutes



+ Finish skill: Rabiot = Taylor = I rate them equal good here.

Rabiot : 2571 mins in Serie A = 8 goals vs Taylor : 2437 mins in Eredivisie = 8 goals



+ Defending ability : Rabiot = Taylor = Not big different here. Rabiot has more strength, but Kenneth Taylor is more easier on the toes and more lightweight.





And here is the link to the footyStats site. For more details of those 2 players :



Rabiot:

Adrien Rabiot Stats - Goals, xG, Assists & xA | FootyStats



K Taylor :



Kenneth Taylor Stats - Goals, xG, Assists & xA | FootyStats





So to sum up and come to conclusion and answer the question is. On basic football skill. I think and believe Kenneth Taylor is as good as Rabiot. Not big difference in the level. The clearly difference is Rabiot has advantage with the physical strength. But the minus with being bigger and taller. Compare to Taylor who is more lightweight and easier on the toes. It will lead to that Taylor is able to run more and has higher workrate. And I think Taylor is quicker and more explosive than Rabiot.



With summary I will conclude that Kenneth Taylor is good enough for Manchester United’s squad. No doubt about it. In the offensive and on the ball. I think and rate Taylor ball skills above Fred and McTom. He is definitely good enough for Manchester United’s squad.

But if he is good enough for a regular starting line up for Manchester United. I think it depend on the formation Ten Hag will use. I think for both Rabiot and Taylor best position on the pitch is as LCM player. Like this:



Eriksen – Casemiro – Taylor/Rabiot



If Ten Hag is using 433 regular with RCM and LCM. I think both Taylor and Rabiot will play really often as LCM. They are natural LCM = left foot cm ball carry and box to box player.

But if Ten Hag will still use 4231. With only 2 cm players spot. Then Taylor will battle against Eriksen. Because I think Casemiro will be the regular starter. It will be like this:



Casemiro – Eriksen/Taylor/Rabiot. As a full packet football player. Taylor is more athlete and run a lot more than Eriksen. Because Taylor is a lot younger with young legs. So assist and key passes of Eriksen. I think Taylor is not there yet.



So in short sentence: Taylor is might not good enough for regular United in 4231 formation. But in a 433 formation. He will rise his chance.

And Taylor is definitely good enough for Manchester United squad. I think both of Rabiot and Taylor will strength the United squad. Special with the creative and with the ball/in possession. And helping to adding more goals from midfield players.





Hope everyone enjoy the reading and wish mine readers a good weekend