Javier Hernandez

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Pogue Mahone

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Erm?

Is it that shocking? Who'd heard of Javier Hernandez before we signed him? Let alone seen him play

Yet we've all had the benefit of seeing him in action now, at the World Cup and during the pre tournament friendlies, and let's be honest, he looked the part, and scored twice, both goals absolute quality. It's still a big step up for him to come to United, but having shown he can mix it with the big boys at World Cup, it would make little to no sense farming him out somewhere

I think you and GHCQ are talking holier than thou crap to be brutally honest. The folk you're criticising have done nothing wrong, they've judged a player having seen him play. It's those who claimed he was brilliant having never seen him play but signed him on Football Manager you should save your ire for
"ire"

I think hilarious was the word I used.

Not sure how you got from there to "ire"

As for Hernandez, he had a decent world cup and scored a great goal but struggled to get his game in a team where the likes of dos Santos, Veila and Franco regularly started ahead of him.

I'm all for being optimistic about him - as I am about any new signing - but it all gets a bit surreal when people talk about him scoring 15 goals, being first-choice partner for Rooney and far too good to go out on loan. Even if he was in his late twenties I'd anticipate he would take a season to settle, being just 21 years old I'd be very surprised if he contributed much this season. Almost certainly not until after Christmas, although quite possibly not at all.
 

Devil may care

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Way back when all we had was the Chivas footage to go on I felt he looked more advanced than the young strikers we have, then he went and took his two chances at the World Cup with tremendous composure which has only led to hopes being raised.

I think since we wont be getting a proven striker in people are hoping Hernandez hits the ground running and displaces Berbatov which is fair enough, come Christmas things may be different but heading into the season Hernandez is the hope for a bright new spark to help out Rooney in attack.
 

The White Pele

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Looking forward to seeing what impact Hernandez will have on our season. I think he could be one of those strikers that frustrates at times - I expect him to miss a few sitters and maybe his touch will let him down at times - but the great thing about him is he looks like he won't be afraid to keep getting into goalscoring positions. I hope we keep patience with him if he does hae a bad patch. He likes to play on the shoulder of the last defender and that is always great to see
 

The White Pele

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I do wonder what becomes of Michael Owen if Hernandez has an instant impact. They seem quite similar in style
 

MUFCgal

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I'm excited about seeing this guy in a United shirt. Obviously we should be patient with him as he's new to the club but there's a lot of potential there and it's been shown that the big stage doesn't faze him.

Can't wait to see him in pre-season.
 

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As for Hernandez, he had a decent world cup and scored a great goal but struggled to get his game in a team where the likes of dos Santos, Veila and Franco regularly started ahead of him.
Franco was the only one keeping Hernandez out of the team in the first couple of matches. Hernandez wasn't fighting with Vela and Dos Santos for a place in the team as he's not a winger.

Aguirre had a set formation and he wasn't one to really experiment much.

I personally think you're underplaying his performance at the WC, he was better than just "decent".
 

Pogue Mahone

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Franco was the only one keeping Hernandez out of the team in the first couple of matches. Hernandez wasn't fighting with Vela and Dos Santos for a place in the team as he's not a winger.

Aguirre had a set formation and he wasn't one to really experiment much.

I personally think you're underplaying his performance at the WC, he was better than just "decent".
Mexico played with a front three. If he really was as fantastic as some on here seem to think he could have displaced Vela or Dos Dantos (neither of whom are conventional wingers)

I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion on hernandez but I thought he still looks very raw. Bags of potential, obviously, but anyone expecting him to suddenly become a regular starter at United is in for a disappointment. IMO, obviously.
 

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"ire"

I think hilarious was the word I used.

Not sure how you got from there to "ire"

As for Hernandez, he had a decent world cup and scored a great goal but struggled to get his game in a team where the likes of dos Santos, Veila and Franco regularly started ahead of him.

I'm all for being optimistic about him - as I am about any new signing - but it all gets a bit surreal when people talk about him scoring 15 goals, being first-choice partner for Rooney and far too good to go out on loan. Even if he was in his late twenties I'd anticipate he would take a season to settle, being just 21 years old I'd be very surprised if he contributed much this season. Almost certainly not until after Christmas, although quite possibly not at all.
He was excellent at the world cup. He got limited chances, had to feed on scraps but still managed to conjure up goals that showed his talents. It was all one could do in that situation.

And to be fair, given how rubbish and stale Berbatov has been for us, I don't see why wanting him to be first choice is wrong. Personally, I want anyone but Berbatov to be first choice. I'm just tired of seeing a player who doesn't belong and doesn't have time on his side to begin belonging in our team. Would much rather see talents like Hernandez or Macheda who could in the future play a big role at this football club, get chances.
 

B Cantona

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Let's have it right; he had a very good World Cup, and if he hadn't already been signed by us, you can bet plenty of clubs would now have been in for him now

No guarantees he steps up to the Premier League of course, whole different ball game. And the pressures of representing United of course
 

42 euros

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Some people seem to take pleasure in comparing Hernandez to Diouf or Manucho. How anyone can still see a comparision is beyond me. The kid has done everything asked of him so far and considering his age he couldn't have done much more. In answer to his critics who seem to think it is only his two goals that has everyone moist you have to consider the way he has taken the pressure of representing his country in a World Cup and shows no nerves at all. As others have said the pressure of playing for United is the biggest hurdle for any new player. It is his ability to live with this pressure as well as his potential that has people genuinely excited. Very few see him as Wazzas immediate partner but sending him on loan would seem to achieve nothing in his development.
 

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Let's have it right; he had a very good World Cup, and if he hadn't already been signed by us, you can bet plenty of clubs would now have been in for him now

No guarantees he https://www.redcafe.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8320381steps up to the Premier League of course, whole different ball game. And the pressures of representing United of course
Yep.

I've not exactly got my cock out, but he looked decent in the games I watched. But it's better than getting your cock out after a few Youtube clips - remember Anderson?!
 

Pogue Mahone

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Some people seem to take pleasure in comparing Hernandez to Diouf or Manucho. How anyone can still see a comparision is beyond me. The kid has done everything asked of him so far and considering his age he couldn't have done much more. In answer to his critics who seem to think it is only his two goals that has everyone moist you have to consider the way he has taken the pressure of representing his country in a World Cup and shows no nerves at all. As others have said the pressure of playing for United is the biggest hurdle for any new player. It is his ability to live with this pressure as well as his potential that has people genuinely excited. Very few see him as Wazzas immediate partner but sending him on loan would seem to achieve nothing in his development.
Huh?

If sending players out on loan "achieves nothing in their development" why do so many great managers (eg. Wenger and Ferguson) so frequently send their most talented youngsters out on loan?

I know it's been a lean summer transfer-wise but the anxiety provoked by Hernandez possibly going on loan smacks of desperation. I hope the poor lad's development as a footballer is shown more patience when he does feature for us than most people are willing to give before he's even kicked a ball.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Let's have it right; he had a very good World Cup, and if he hadn't already been signed by us, you can bet plenty of clubs would now have been in for him now

No guarantees he steps up to the Premier League of course, whole different ball game. And the pressures of representing United of course
A "very good" World Cup? Really?

He's no Poborsky in the Euros, that's for sure.

There were three players nominated for the WC young player of the tournament. Dos Santos was one of them, Hernandez was not.

In 2006, Antonio Valencia got nominated for the same award and ended up at Wigan. It was another 3 years before he was ready to make the step up to a club like United.

Like I said, this Hernandez bloke clearly has bags of talent and I'm optimistic he has a big future at United (more optimistic than I am about Diouf, for example) but I can't buy in to all this giddiness over a couple of quality goals and one good 90 minute performance.
 

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Obviously loans can be good. Cleverley came on a treat last season - far more worthwhile than a season in the reserves.

We have quite a few players who might find first team opportunities hard to come by but are really too good for the reserves and need proper competitive football.

I can imagine loans for Gray and Chester if they're not released, Cathcart, Corry Evans, Welbeck, Eikrem, as well as James and Drinkwater who are already on loan at good clubs. Maybe Petrucci too if he can get fit.
 

charlenefan

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The biggest problem with Hernandez is he was so effective for Mexico in the World Cup (and in their warm up games) he's coming to OT and we're all expecting him to score goals straight away given his goals to game record for the national team

That's a lot to live up to..... the one positive for him though is IF we're not going to play Rooney for the first couple of games he will probably be the one that gets game time along with Berbatov so he'll have the chance at least to hit the ground running

Personally I'm very excited about him as a prospect, to me he seems to brightest unknown talent we've brought in since Ronaldo
 

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Huh?

If sending players out on loan "achieves nothing in their development" why do so many great managers (eg. Wenger and Ferguson) so frequently send their most talented youngsters out on loan?
In an ideal world or situation, you might be right but often loans are worthless because the loaned players get hardly any games under their belt.
 

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Like I said, this Hernandez bloke clearly has bags of talent and I'm optimistic he has a big future at United (more optimistic than I am about Diouf, for example) but I can't buy in to all this giddiness over a couple of quality goals and one good 90 minute performance.
Neither do I. I do however feel he should NOT be loaned out and should be given a chance together with Owen to stake his claim for the 3rd striker role (given that unfortunately there's no way Berbatov doesn't start the season as the 2nd striker).

For any 21 yr old to be playing at a World Cup for his country says something about him. Mexico isn't a small country - it has plenty of talent to draw from and that also strongly suggests he has plenty of talent. He started the World Cup as a sub but progressed I believe to playing a more prominent role, coming on earlier or even starting in the last couple of games which also suggests he had a good world cup.

I'll reserve judgement on him until December by which time I hope to have seen him start a few games (Carling Cup and 1 or 2 in the league) and come on as sub in quite a few more.

Going out on loan I feel would not be what he expects to happen given his record at Chivas and performances in the World Cup.

I would rather see Macheda go out on loan with Wellbeck.
 

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In an ideal world or situation, you might be right but often loans are worthless because the loaned players get hardly any games under their belt.
Frazier Campbell aside, I can't think of any other examples of that happening to our loaned out players. Not sure what you're on about really- loans have been an essential part of many of our player's development.
 

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In form? He won't be playing competitively for another 4-5 weeks!

Hardly a relevant point.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Neither do I. I do however feel he should NOT be loaned out and should be given a chance together with Owen to stake his claim for the 3rd striker role (given that unfortunately there's no way Berbatov doesn't start the season as the 2nd striker).

For any 21 yr old to be playing at a World Cup for his country says something about him. Mexico isn't a small country - it has plenty of talent to draw from and that also strongly suggests he has plenty of talent. He started the World Cup as a sub but progressed I believe to playing a more prominent role, coming on earlier or even starting in the last couple of games which also suggests he had a good world cup.

I'll reserve judgement on him until December by which time I hope to have seen him start a few games (Carling Cup and 1 or 2 in the league) and come on as sub in quite a few more.

Going out on loan I feel would not be what he expects to happen given his record at Chivas and performances in the World Cup.

I would rather see Macheda go out on loan with Wellbeck.
I agree with pretty much all of that, especially the bit about him being grduallt integrated starting with CC games (except for the bit about Macheda, I hope he stays put)

The main reason I think it's unlikely Hernandez goes on loan is because SAF will want our coaches to get their hands on him. Unlikely but not impossible. We have got a lot of young, up and coming strikers at the club and they can't all get squad numbers.
 

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Mexico played with a front three. If he really was as fantastic as some on here seem to think he could have displaced Vela or Dos Dantos (neither of whom are conventional wingers)
They played with a front three in the same way we play with a front three where Nani and Valencia are on the wings. Hernandez is not a winger, and it is possible to be a very good player without having the versatility to play on the wings. In fact, I find it a bit odd why you'd use this as an argument against him.
 

FlawlessThaw

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Getting his leg almost shattered by Pogatetz was what set him back, not going out on loan.
And I suppose sitting on the bench for Braga helped him out quite a bit as well? Sure his mentality after Pogatetz went for him became a problem but it's stupid to just dismiss the fact that he played no football for half a season. He certainly hasn't progressed at all in the last two years.
 

charlenefan

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They played with a front three in the same way we play with a front three where Nani and Valencia are on the wings. Hernandez is not a winger, and it is possible to be a very good player without having the versatility to play on the wings. In fact, I find it a bit odd why you'd use this as an argument against him.
Exactly! Being able to play wide is what set Rooney back so many years!

I'm glad he's an out and out striker/goal poacher
 

Pogue Mahone

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They played with a front three in the same way we play with a front three where Nani and Valencia are on the wings. Hernandez is not a winger, and it is possible to be a very good player without having the versatility to play on the wings. In fact, I find it a bit odd why you'd use this as an argument against him.
You don't think Hernandez has the attributes to play anywhere in a front three? I see absolutely no reason he couldn't have got games for Mexico in the same role that, for example, Villa played for Spain.

Of course, this would mean dropping either Vela or Dos Santos, neither of whom seem to be rated on this place but both of whom started (almost?) all of Mexico's WC games.

I don't know why you're interpreting this as a slight on Hernandez, by the way. He did really well to force himself into the Mexican side and made the most of his chance when he got it. It's only an argument used against a hypothetical young player who is apparently ready to walk into our first XI of Manchester United. Such a player would have been expected to start all of Mexico's games, whether or not that meant a slight re-shuffle up top.
 

Pogue Mahone

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And I suppose sitting on the bench for Braga helped him out quite a bit as well? Sure his mentality after Pogatetz went for him became a problem but it's stupid to just dismiss the fact that he played no football for half a season. He certainly hasn't progressed at all in the last two years.
Not as stupid as blaming a half season on loan for his failure to progress at all in the last two years.

When young players go on loan and don't get games it's always a chicken and egg scenario. Are they not getting games because they're not good enough or are they not good enough because they're not getting games?

My money's on the former. If you look at the United youngsters who've gone on to be a success (either at United or elsewhere) they've all done really well out on loan.

Rossi is literally the only youngster I can think of who couldn't get games on loan but went on to do (relatively) well. He's the exception that proves the rule and even he had at least one really succesful loan spell before making it (relatively) big.
 

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You don't think Hernandez has the attributes to play anywhere in a front three? I see absolutely no reason he couldn't have got games for Mexico in the same role that, for example, Villa played for Spain.

Of course, this would mean dropping either Vela or Dos Santos, neither of whom seem to be rated on this place but both of whom started (almost?) all of Mexico's WC games.
Well I have only seen him play 6-8 games, and all of them were as a frontman, so it's limited how much one can really say about his ability to play on the wings.

But I'm fairly confident he wouldn't be nearly as effective and useful out there as he is centrally. Just as is the case with a lot of strikers. Why it'd be silly for Aguirre to put Hernandez on the wing when he already has players who are natural wingers or have played there the majority of their career.

On a related note, I thought Aguirre was bonkers for not starting Pablo Barrera on the wing.
 
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