Milton Keynes Dons 4:0 Manchester United

Diadem @t.banty · Aug 28, 2014

pierrethesnack said:
Kagawa has played in his favoured position quite a few times, and hasn't been convincing. No, he hasn't been bad, but he simply hasn't been good enough, just as he has said himself.

Yes, he created some chances in preseason. Fletcher also plaid well in preseason, does that mean that he should start every game as well?

As for Kagawa controlling and dictating the play...I simply don't agree. He's got quite the engine, but he is not very influential. LvG also said that he tried playing him in the CM role in preseason, but that he just didn't do well enough.

Look, I have nothing against Kagawa. I think he could be better than Mata if he really could get things going, but he just doesn't seem to be able to do it. If he were 18, it would be different, but he's 25 and has been at United for a while now. The club doesn't have time to wait for him, and with Mata, Januzaj and Rooney for competition, I'm afraid time has run out.

Why don't you mention the no of the games he has played in the centre and the particular match? I think that will be a start.
Also, it's not by being able to play in a 2-man midfield that makes you a playmaker. Silva is Mancity's playmaker that controls their tempo, even City fans would attest to it but according to you, it will be 'he can't be because he doesn't/can't play in a 2-man midfield'.
Even at that, it was glaring that Kagawa dictated our tempo against Roma and L.a Galaxy while playing in that 2-man midfield. Even Van gaal attest to the fact that the team controlled the midfield better in the 2nd half against Roma which coincided with Kagawa on the pitch, http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/27/manchester-united-roma-louis-van-gaal-denver
As for Van Gaal opinion on Kagawa, I don't think it make any sense when everyone saw that Kagawa had a fantastic pre-season and fitted into that system like a glove more than Mata.
The best thing is for Kagawa to return to Dortmund and I wish him all the best.

pierrethesnack · Aug 28, 2014

Diadem [USER=63673]@t.banty[/USER] said:
Why don't you mention the no of the games he has played in the centre and the particular match? I think that will be a start.
Also, it's not by being able to play in a 2-man midfield that makes you a playmaker. Silva is Mancity's playmaker that controls their tempo, even City fans would attest to it but according to you, it will be 'he can't be because he doesn't/can't play in a 2-man midfield'.
Even at that, it was glaring that Kagawa dictated our tempo against Roma and L.a Galaxy while playing in that 2-man midfield. Even Van gaal attest to the fact that the team controlled the midfield better in the 2nd half against Roma which coincided with Kagawa on the pitch, http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/27/manchester-united-roma-louis-van-gaal-denver
As for Van Gaal opinion on Kagawa, I don't think it make any sense when everyone saw that Kagawa had a fantastic pre-season and fitted into that system like a glove more than Mata.
The best thing is for Kagawa to return to Dortmund and I wish him all the best.

I didn't mean the games he played centrally, the reason I mentioned those was just to show why he is likely to leave, as LvG said that he didn't perform well enough there either. I meant the games he got as the player in the hole while at United. He hasn't been awful, but not nearly good enough to be preferred over Rooney and Mata, and now possibly Januzaj.

As for the playmaker controlling the tempo, that's simply wrong. The central midfielders control the tempo and that job is done mainly by Toure at City, not Silva. A playmaker's job is to create chances, not control the tempo. Kagawa's lack of success at United is not due to his inability to control the tempo, it's due to his inability to create goal scoring chances.

A good game against Norwich and a decent preseason doesn't mean he should start, especially when there are at least two players who are consistently performing better than him.

But I agree, the best thing for him is to leave. I have no doubt he'll be a success, wherever he goes.

Diadem @t.banty · Aug 28, 2014

pierrethesnack said:
I didn't mean the games he played centrally, the reason I mentioned those was just to show why he is likely to leave, as LvG said that he didn't perform well enough there either. I meant the games he got as the player in the hole while at United. He hasn't been awful, but not nearly good enough to be preferred over Rooney and Mata, and now possibly Januzaj.

As for the playmaker controlling the tempo, that's simply wrong. The central midfielders control the tempo and that job is done mainly by Toure at City, not Silva. A playmaker's job is to create chances, not control the tempo. Kagawa's lack of success at United is not due to his inability to control the tempo, it's due to his inability to create goal scoring chances.

A good game against Norwich and a decent preseason doesn't mean he should start, especially when there are at least two players who are consistently performing better than him.

But I agree, the best thing for him is to leave. I have no doubt he'll be a success, wherever he goes.

I still don't get what you're saying.
Are you saying he's been consistently played in the centre/hole or not? If yes, it shouldn't be difficult to mention these games?
As for controlling the games, it's true Silva is the player that controls the game for City while Yaya provides energy with his runs and movement. Next time when you watch Mancity, you will notice how Silva drops deep, which in turns transit City midfield into a 3-man midfield with Silva wrecking havoc and opening up space for players like Yaya to exploit. That's how a player dictate a tempo, dictating tempo is basically opening up space for the attackers to expoit through creativity, vision, intelligent movement and awareness.

pierrethesnack · Aug 28, 2014

Diadem [USER=63673]@t.banty[/USER] said:
I still don't get what you're saying.
Are you saying he's been consistently played in the centre/hole or not? If yes, it shouldn't be difficult to mention these games?
As for controlling the games, it's true Silva is the player that controls the game for City while Yaya provides energy with his runs and movement. Next time when you watch Mancity, you will notice how Silva drops deep, which in turns transit City midfield into a 3-man midfield with Silva wrecking havoc and opening up space for players like Yaya to exploit. That's how a player dictate a tempo, dictating tempo is basically opening up space for the attackers to expoit through creativity, vision, intelligent movement and awareness.

No, I'm not saying that he's been played consistently in that position. Here is what I'm saying:

He's been given ample opportunity on the wing, and some opportunities in the hole. He hasn't been good enough in either of them, although yes I agree, he's been better in the hole than out on the wing. But he has not been good enough to compete with Rooney and Mata. If he had, I think one of the three managers he's had at United would have noticed.

As for playmakers, it seems we have different opinions. My definition of a playmaker somewhat overlaps with an attacking midfielder. Controlling the pace of the game is the specialty of players such as Scholes (in his prime), Gerrard, Pirlo, Xavi and Schweinsteiger, of which none can be called "playmakers".

Diadem @t.banty · Aug 28, 2014

pierrethesnack said:
No, I'm not saying that he's been played consistently in that position. Here is what I'm saying:

He's been given ample opportunity on the wing, and some opportunities in the hole. He hasn't been good enough in either of them, although yes I agree, he's been better in the hole than out on the wing. But he has not been good enough to compete with Rooney and Mata. If he had, I think one of the three managers he's had at United would have noticed.

As for playmakers, it seems we have different opinions. My definition of a playmaker somewhat overlaps with an attacking midfielder. Controlling the pace of the game is the specialty of players such as Scholes (in his prime), Gerrard, Pirlo, Xavi and Schweinsteiger, of which none can be called "playmakers".

No, he's been consistently the best player on the pitch whenever he plays in his damn position. I will tell you the games if you can't remember them. The games includes Bayern, Swansea, Norwich, R. Sociedad, B. Leverkusen, Southampton and his debut game against Everton.
When last did Rooney played on the wing? He did that for England and was horrible there. What about Mata? We already know how poor he looked there last season and Moyes had no option than to deploy him in the centre. Compared to them, Kagawa's performance on the wing is far better.
I agree in the midfield, there should be a playmaker whether a deep-lying playmaking CM like Alonso, Pirlo, Sahin e.t.c or a mobile playmaking CM, such as Modric, Xavi, Verratti e.t.c. However, some club would rather deploy two brutes but with a playmaker that drops deep into the midfield to orchestrate play. That's exactly what City is doing with Silva and Dortmund did this with Kagawa when he was there. With this style, the midfield evetually transist into a 3-man midfield on the pitch.
Do you remember Kagawa's Performance against Bayern last season? Kagawa was constantly dropping deep in that game and he basically outclassed Schweini. That wasn't his first time though, he made a fool of the same Bastian and Gustavo in Dortmund 5-2 win over Bayern 3 years ago. In that game, majority of Kagawa's touches were deep in the central midfield, even Gundogan didn't have as many touches and basically was invisible.
Japan 3-4 loss to Italy was also another game which had Kagawa drifting deep into the central midfield to orchestrate their play. He was the best player on the pitch, outclassing the likes of Pirlo in the midfield. That's what Kagawa's capable of whenever he has a free role.
Even in some of our games when Moyes gave him a free role on the left which allowed him drop deep into the midfield like the Aston Villa, Westham, Newcastle games e.t.c, he was the best player on the pitch and he archived this while dropping deeper than Mata.
Anyway, I'm happy that he's leaving for Dortmund because they not only need him but they would be able to use him in the best way unlike Manutd.

pierrethesnack · Aug 28, 2014

Diadem [USER=63673]@t.banty[/USER] said:
No, he's been consistently the best player on the pitch whenever he plays in his damn position. I will tell you the games if you can't remember them. The games includes Bayern, Swansea, Norwich, R. Sociedad, B. Leverkusen, Southampton and his debut game against Everton.
When last did Rooney played on the wing? He did that for England and was horrible there. What about Mata? We already know how poor he looked there last season and Moyes had no option than to deploy him in the centre. Compared to them, Kagawa's performance on the wing is far better.
I agree in the midfield, there should be a playmaker whether a deep-lying playmaking CM like Alonso, Pirlo, Sahin e.t.c or a mobile playmaking CM, such as Modric, Xavi, Verratti e.t.c. However, some club would rather deploy two brutes but with a playmaker that drops deep into the midfield to orchestrate play. That's exactly what City is doing with Silva and Dortmund did this with Kagawa when he was there. With this style, the midfield evetually transist into a 3-man midfield on the pitch.
Do you remember Kagawa's Performance against Bayern last season? Kagawa was constantly dropping deep in that game and he basically outclassed Schweini. That wasn't his first time though, he made a fool of the same Bastian and Gustavo in Dortmund 5-2 win over Bayern 3 years ago. In that game, majority of Kagawa's touches were deep in the central midfield, even Gundogan didn't have as many touches and basically was invisible.
Japan 3-4 loss to Italy was also another game which had Kagawa drifting deep into the central midfield to orchestrate their play. He was the best player on the pitch, outclassing the likes of Pirlo in the midfield. That's what Kagawa's capable of whenever he has a free role.
Even in some of our games when Moyes gave him a free role on the left which allowed him drop deep into the midfield like the Aston Villa, Westham, Newcastle games e.t.c, he was the best player on the pitch and he archived this while dropping deeper than Mata.
Anyway, I'm happy that he's leaving for Dortmund because they not only need him but they would be able to use him in the best way unlike Manutd.

Okay, you're obviously a die hard Kagawa fan, and that's fine. The fact still remains that he failed to impress three consecutive managers both on and off the pitch.

Alex99 · Aug 28, 2014

DanBorja said:
You got it wrong mate, I think Hernandez got 20 goals in his first season, 8 or 12 (not sure about that one) on his second season where he struggled with injuries, and got 18 goals in his 3rd season (his best season imo, covered RVP's injury to perfection), then Moyes got in and he barely even touched the field.

How do you expect him to score goals, when Moyes only gave him 15 mins per month while playing sh*t football? As we all now Hernandez needs a good team behind him, because he wont be there to contribute properly in the build up. Hernandez is a good asset when having a decent team behind him.

Sadly, he belongs now to a team that hasn't been able to play proper football in over a year, so his deficiencies in his game are much more hurtful to the team when he is playing. I really hope Hernandez leaves the club, for the sake of both parties.

He's scored more than 15 across all competitions on 2 occasions, and both of those were in seasons when we won the league. I highly doubt we'll be doing that this season, and with only the FA Cup and PL left, he's not got the luxury of having the League Cup and CL to boost his total.

Hernandez's highest total in the league is 13, and that was in his first season. He got 10 the following two seasons, then only 4 last season. By no means does Hernandez easily score 15 goals a season. Given 35+ appearances he might, but a lot of strikers would stand a decent chance given that many games. The fact of the matter is that Hernandez simply isn't good enough to warrant that number of appearances. His main assets were his finishing, his acceleration, his positioning and his awareness. His positioning and awareness have gone completely. He's no longer making runs into good positions or finding himself in the right place at the right time, and he's constantly being caught offside and making runs into stupid positions. On the rare occasion that he does find himself in the right position, his touch or his finishing let him down more often than not, and he's nowhere near the threat he was.

Alex99 · Aug 28, 2014

Diadem [USER=63673]@t.banty[/USER] said:
Mata only played 2-3 games on the wing last season which he was shit by the way and had Moyes cupping majority of the blame for playing him on the wing. After those 3 games, Mata was consistently deployed in the no 10 role last season except for the 1st half match against City. So I don't know what you're talking about.
Even after Mata was deployed in the centre, he was still shit not until Moyes had Kagawa playing with him and it was Kagawa who constantly drop deep into the midfield to support him. That should tell you the difference between Kagawa and Mata, one is a playmaker while the other is a second striker.
Out of the 50 games you said Kagawa had played for us, isn't it pathetic Kagawa only had 5-6 games in his preferred position? Also, he's only started 28 games in the premier league for two season!
Lastly, I still don't get how Van gaal came into the conclusion that he doesn't fit his philosophy when he was one of our best players in the pre-season. He was also better than Mata despite playing with the B-team. If I go with my inner gut, I would say Van Gaal haven't gotten over the fact that Dortmund usurped his Bayern team which led to his dismissal and Kagawa was part of that Dortmund team!

Mata, despite apparently being shit, managed to score 7 and assist 4 in a very short period of time. Also, that bit about van Gaal having a vendetta is just laughable and pretty much just sums up how deluded you are.

You seem to be living a fantasy regarding where Mata played last year and how bad he's supposedly been. He had a good run of games on the wing, then was given a chance at No. 10 where he proved very productive. Despite that, he was also pretty handy on the wing. Here's a little breakdown of it for you:

2013/14 - Moyes
No. 10 against Cardiff, assisted Young. Won 2-0.
Wing against Stoke, assisted van Persie. Lost 2-1.
Wing against Fulham, assisted van Persie. Drew 2-2.
Wing against Arsenal. Drew 0-0.
Wing against Crystal Palace. Won 2-0.
Wing against West Brom. Won 3-0.
Wing against Liverpool. Lost 3-0.
No. 10 against West Ham. Won 2-0.
Wing against City. Lost 3-0.
No. 10 against Villa, scored. Won 4-1.
No. 10 against Newcastle, scored 2, assisted Januzaj. Won 4-0.
No. 10 against Everton. Lost 2-0.

2013/14 - Giggs
Subbed on as No.10 then moved against Norwich, scored 2 (1 as No.10, 1 as CM). Won 4-0.
No. 10 against Sunderland. Lost 1-0.
No. 10 against Southampton, scored. Drew 1-1.

2014/15 - van Gaal
No. 10 against Swansea. Lost 2-1.
No. 10 against Sunderland, scored. Drew 1-1.

Mata played 6 games in a row on the wing, as well as a further game on the wing, and anther where he was moved to central midfield after playing about 10 minutes as a No. 10. His longest, uninterrupted run of games at No.10 was 3 games, and in that time he scored 3 and assisted 1. If you include his brief time at No.10 against Norwich in it, his run was 6 games, in which he scored 5, and assisted 1. Stretch that into this season, and you've got 6 goals in 8 games, as well as an assist, which is a much bigger contribution to the team than anything Kagawa has done, considering he's only managed 6 goals in his whole time here, with 3 of those coming in one game, and only managed a paltry 3 assists a season to go along with that.

As much as you like to think he is, Kagawa is not a game-changer, and you repeating the same 4 or 5 games as examples of him being amazing doesn't prove anything other than he's been alright in flashes. There's a reason why three managers haven't fancied him in their team, and it's because he's not good enough.

Anyway, as I said to Arul, if you want to discuss Kagawa, do it in a Kagawa thread. I've a feeling you won't be threatening the main forum anytime soon though so you'll have to make do with the newbs.

Diadem @t.banty · Aug 28, 2014

pierrethesnack said:
Okay, you're obviously a die hard Kagawa fan, and that's fine. The fact still remains that he failed to impress three consecutive managers both on and off the pitch.

He obviously impressed Fergie and eventually won over Moyes' heart in his latter days, you can check Moyes' comments here: http://www.sl10.ng/news/articles/le...ffort-after-thrashing-newcastle-united/158428 and http://m.fifa.com/world-match-centr...mier-league-2000000000/news/newsid/230/597/1/.
As for Van Gaal, I don't know what he's talking about, considering Kagawa was one of our best player in the pre-season and was far better than Mata. When Van gaal have enough justification for omitting Kagawa, I will reason with him but for now, it's a baseless talk.

pierrethesnack · Aug 28, 2014

Diadem [USER=63673]@t.banty[/USER] said:
He obviously impressed Fergie and eventually won over Moyes' heart in his latter days, you can check Moyes' comments here: http://www.sl10.ng/news/articles/le...ffort-after-thrashing-newcastle-united/158428 and http://m.fifa.com/world-match-centr...mier-league-2000000000/news/newsid/230/597/1/.
As for Van Gaal, I don't know what he's talking about, considering Kagawa was one of our best player in the pre-season and was far better than Mata. When Van gaal have enough justification for omitting Kagawa, I will reason with him but for now, it's a baseless talk.

Baseless talk from a man who sees him in training every single day? Enough justification? I hardly think LvG needs to justify himself to you... God, you have high opinions of yourself :houllier:

Alex99 · Aug 28, 2014

Diadem [USER=63673]@t.banty[/USER] said:
He obviously impressed Fergie and eventually won over Moyes' heart in his latter days, you can check Moyes' comments here: http://www.sl10.ng/news/articles/le...ffort-after-thrashing-newcastle-united/158428 and http://m.fifa.com/world-match-centr...mier-league-2000000000/news/newsid/230/597/1/.
As for Van Gaal, I don't know what he's talking about, considering Kagawa was one of our best player in the pre-season and was far better than Mata. When Van gaal have enough justification for omitting Kagawa, I will reason with him but for now, it's a baseless talk.

In what way did he "obviously" impress Fergie. And all you've got there is Moyes saying him, Mata and Fletcher were good in one game, as well as him saying he wants to see more good performances from him, which could be seen as a criticism of his inconsistency.

You're obviously mental because you think you know more than the man who's managed multiple teams, over 3 decades, and sees him play every day.

Diadem @t.banty · Aug 28, 2014

Alex99 said:
Mata, despite apparently being shit, managed to score 7 and assist 4 in a very short period of time. Also, that bit about van Gaal having a vendetta is just laughable and pretty much just sums up how deluded you are.

You seem to be living a fantasy regarding where Mata played last year and how bad he's supposedly been. He had a good run of games on the wing, then was given a chance at No. 10 where he proved very productive. Despite that, he was also pretty handy on the wing. Here's a little breakdown of it for you:

2013/14 - Moyes
No. 10 against Cardiff, assisted Young. Won 2-0.
Wing against Stoke, assisted van Persie. Lost 2-1.
Wing against Fulham, assisted van Persie. Drew 2-2.
Wing against Arsenal. Drew 0-0.
Wing against Crystal Palace. Won 2-0.
Wing against West Brom. Won 3-0.
Wing against Liverpool. Lost 3-0.
No. 10 against West Ham. Won 2-0.
Wing against City. Lost 3-0.
No. 10 against Villa, scored. Won 4-1.
No. 10 against Newcastle, scored 2, assisted Januzaj. Won 4-0.
No. 10 against Everton. Lost 2-0.

2013/14 - Giggs
Subbed on as No.10 then moved against Norwich, scored 2 (1 as No.10, 1 as CM). Won 4-0.
No. 10 against Sunderland. Lost 1-0.
No. 10 against Southampton, scored. Drew 1-1.

2014/15 - van Gaal
No. 10 against Swansea. Lost 2-1.
No. 10 against Sunderland, scored. Drew 1-1.

Mata played 6 games in a row on the wing, as well as a further game on the wing, and anther where he was moved to central midfield after playing about 10 minutes as a No. 10. His longest, uninterrupted run of games at No.10 was 3 games, and in that time he scored 3 and assisted 1. If you include his brief time at No.10 against Norwich in it, his run was 6 games, in which he scored 5, and assisted 1. Stretch that into this season, and you've got 6 goals in 8 games, as well as an assist, which is a much bigger contribution to the team than anything Kagawa has done, considering he's only managed 6 goals in his whole time here, with 3 of those coming in one game, and only managed a paltry 3 assists a season to go along with that.

As much as you like to think he is, Kagawa is not a game-changer, and you repeating the same 4 or 5 games as examples of him being amazing doesn't prove anything other than he's been alright in flashes. There's a reason why three managers haven't fancied him in their team, and it's because he's not good enough.

Anyway, as I said to Arul, if you want to discuss Kagawa, do it in a Kagawa thread. I've a feeling you won't be threatening the main forum anytime soon though so you'll have to make do with the newbs.

That's a lie.
I don't know why you have to lie though. The truth is Mata has had more than 10 games in his favoured position at Manutd. Off the top of my head, I can say he was the no 10 in the Everton game, Westham, Aston Villa, Newcastle, City, Norwich, Sunderland, Cardiff, Southampton and this season Swansea and Sunderland games. If you're going to lie, make it less obvious because you're definately not talking to a kid here.
As for his stats, that's nothing new about Mata, he's a player who pad up his stat while being useless in majority of the game, same as Rooney because both are more or less like forwards; they are basically second strikers. Not to forget 2-3 out of the 6 goals Mata scored came from freekicks. It's also quite funny the short pass he made for Young's 25 yard goal against Cardiff was also recorded as an assist for him amongst others.

Anyway, it was glaring that the team were shit with Mata on the wing and this led to losses in the games we played against Stoke, Fulham, Liverpool, Arsenal. The Crystal palace game was the only game we managed to win through a penalty and Rooney's individual goal after a shit performance by the team.
Also, Mata didn't play the full 90 mins on the wing against City and Westbrom. He was moved to the centre in the 2nd half of those games. Inshort, it's a wonder how you still had the confidence to spout the shit that 'Mata has been fantastic on the wing' when everybody and their dogs knows he was shit there, even the media were calling for Moyes' head for deploying him on the wing.

As for Van Gaal statement, we can all see how the fantastic players that fit into his philosophy have been doing so far! I really don't get how a coach would say Kagawa didn't fit his philosophy when that said player was one of the best player in that same philosophy in the preseason games.

Unless Van Gaal comes out with something that has justification, that's just a baseless statement.

Diadem @t.banty · Aug 29, 2014

pierrethesnack said:
Baseless talk from a man who sees him in training every single day? Enough justification? I hardly think LvG needs to justify himself to you... God, you have high opinions of yourself

He said in the preseason games and not in the training.
I don't see how I'm to take the word of a man who said Kagawa didn't play well and fit into his philosophy in the Preseason games when the said player was one of our best players in every damn game he played! Let him come with something better pls.

Diadem @t.banty · Aug 29, 2014

Alex99 said:
In what way did he "obviously" impress Fergie. And all you've got there is Moyes saying him, Mata and Fletcher were good in one game, as well as him saying he wants to see more good performances from him, which could be seen as a criticism of his inconsistency.

You're obviously mental because you think you know more than the man who's managed multiple teams, over 3 decades, and sees him play every day.

The only time Moyes consistently played Kagawa was in the month April and he did justify it by winning that month's player award. And Moyes didn't just praise him in one game, Moyes praised him in each of the games he had against A. Villa, Westham, Newcastle, Bayern e.t.c. Get your fact right man!
You also seem to forget that Kagawa played majority of the games under Fergie despite an injury hit season. Even Fergie constantly mentioned that Kagawa would be much more better in the following season and he affirmed that statement by wanting to sell Rooney, which showed that Fergie was planning to make Kagawa his main playmaker the following season but unfortunately, he came into retirement.
As for Van Gaal, I already made my opinion known.

Alex99 · Aug 29, 2014

Diadem [USER=63673]@t.banty[/USER] said:
That's a lie.
I don't know why you have to lie though. The truth is Mata has had more than 10 games in his favoured position at Manutd. Off the top of my head, I can say he was the no 10 in the Everton game, Westham, Aston Villa, Newcastle, City, Norwich, Sunderland, Cardiff, Southampton and this season Swansea and Sunderland games. If you're going to lie, make it less obvious because you're definately not talking to a kid here.
As for his stats, that's nothing new about Mata, he's a player who pad up his stat while being useless in majority of the game, same as Rooney because both are more or less like forwards; they are basically second strikers. Not to forget 2-3 out of the 6 goals Mata scored came from freekicks. It's also quite funny the short pass he made for Young's 25 yard goal against Cardiff was also recorded as an assist for him amongst others.

Anyway, it was glaring that the team were shit with Mata on the wing and this led to losses in the games we played against Stoke, Fulham, Liverpool, Arsenal. The Crystal palace game was the only game we managed to win through a penalty and Rooney's individual goal after a shit performance by the team.
Also, Mata didn't play the full 90 mins on the wing against City and Westbrom. He was moved to the centre in the 2nd half of those games. Inshort, it's a wonder how you still had the confidence to spout the shit that 'Mata has been fantastic on the wing' when everybody and their dogs knows he was shit there, even the media were calling for Moyes' head for deploying him on the wing.

As for Van Gaal statement, we can all see how the fantastic players that fit into his philosophy have been doing so far! I really don't get how a coach would say Kagawa didn't fit his philosophy when that said player was one of the best player in that same philosophy in the preseason games.

Unless Van Gaal comes out with something that has justification, that's just a baseless statement.

I never said Mata was fantastic on the wing, I just said that he tried on the wing. Something Kagawa seems unwilling to do. It's also a bit weird that you've picked out some of the games that we lost while Mata was on the wing in to prove he's crap, when he was very effective at No.10, which is basically the point that's been made.

Also, I literally went through the line-ups and match reports for all of those games so bar a couple of mid-match changes, it's accurate.

You're deluded. LVG has said it because it's true. You're basically claiming to know more than him about a player he sees play every day. A player that he can try in any position he wants in training, every day, to see how he does there. A player that he can assess very thoroughly, every day. A player that you've seen for about 3 hours in LVG's system.

He wasn't one of the best in preseason, that's just some shit you're spouting to try and make your point sound stronger. He played 45 minutes against LA Galaxy and didn't manage to do anything of note, despite United scoring 4 goals in that time. He played 45 minutes against Roma and again didn't manage anything of note. He played 45 minutes against Inter, with the only thing of note being scoring in the shootout. He played about half an hour against Madrid and set up a goal as well as a couple of other chances. This was basically his only good game in preseason. He played about 20 minutes against Liverpool, with the only thing of note being him miscontrolling it into Lingard's path for the 3rd goal. He played about half an hour against Valencia and did nothing of note.

He didn't start a single game preseason, and played less than 45 minutes in half of the games. How you can say he was one of the best is baffling. You know who were the two of best players in preseason? Ashley Young, Darren Fletcher, and that's not exactly done them much good coming into the actual season.

You're so full of shit on this that it's embarrassing.

pierrethesnack · Aug 29, 2014

Alex99 said:
I never said Mata was fantastic on the wing, I just said that he tried on the wing. Something Kagawa seems unwilling to do. It's also a bit weird that you've picked out some of the games that we lost while Mata was on the wing in to prove he's crap, when he was very effective at No.10, which is basically the point that's been made.

Also, I literally went through the line-ups and match reports for all of those games so bar a couple of mid-match changes, it's accurate.

You're deluded. LVG has said it because it's true. You're basically claiming to know more than him about a player he sees play every day. A player that he can try in any position he wants in training, every day, to see how he does there. A player that he can assess very thoroughly, every day. A player that you've seen for about 3 hours in LVG's system.

He wasn't one of the best in preseason, that's just some shit you're spouting to try and make your point sound stronger. He played 45 minutes against LA Galaxy and didn't manage to do anything of note, despite United scoring 4 goals in that time. He played 45 minutes against Roma and again didn't manage anything of note. He played 45 minutes against Inter, with the only thing of note being scoring in the shootout. He played about half an hour against Madrid and set up a goal as well as a couple of other chances. This was basically his only good game in preseason. He played about 20 minutes against Liverpool, with the only thing of note being him miscontrolling it into Lingard's path for the 3rd goal. He played about half an hour against Valencia and did nothing of note.

He didn't start a single game preseason, and played less than 45 minutes in half of the games. How you can say he was one of the best is baffling. You know who were the two of best players in preseason? Ashley Young, Darren Fletcher, and that's not exactly done them much good coming into the actual season.

You're so full of shit on this that it's embarrassing.

Well said.

Diadem @t.banty · Aug 29, 2014

Alex99 said:
I never said Mata was fantastic on the wing, I just said that he tried on the wing. Something Kagawa seems unwilling to do. It's also a bit weird that you've picked out some of the games that we lost while Mata was on the wing in to prove he's crap, when he was very effective at No.10, which is basically the point that's been made.

Also, I literally went through the line-ups and match reports for all of those games so bar a couple of mid-match changes, it's accurate.

You're deluded. LVG has said it because it's true. You're basically claiming to know more than him about a player he sees play every day. A player that he can try in any position he wants in training, every day, to see how he does there. A player that he can assess very thoroughly, every day. A player that you've seen for about 3 hours in LVG's system.

He wasn't one of the best in preseason, that's just some shit you're spouting to try and make your point sound stronger. He played 45 minutes against LA Galaxy and didn't manage to do anything of note, despite United scoring 4 goals in that time. He played 45 minutes against Roma and again didn't manage anything of note. He played 45 minutes against Inter, with the only thing of note being scoring in the shootout. He played about half an hour against Madrid and set up a goal as well as a couple of other chances. This was basically his only good game in preseason. He played about 20 minutes against Liverpool, with the only thing of note being him miscontrolling it into Lingard's path for the 3rd goal. He played about half an hour against Valencia and did nothing of note.

He didn't start a single game preseason, and played less than 45 minutes in half of the games. How you can say he was one of the best is baffling. You know who were the two of best players in preseason? Ashley Young, Darren Fletcher, and that's not exactly done them much good coming into the actual season.

I'm happy to see you lose it. That's what happens to people who pulled up ridiculous untruthful facts from nowhere and when they are called out, they have nothing else than to resort to insult. Such a shame.
Back to the topic, I said Mata was 'shitier' than Kagawa on the wing for us but you claimed otherwise and now that I gave you a cold hard fact, you're changing tune.
And do I need to remind you Kagawa played in the central midfield against Roma and Galaxy for you to know that you can't expect goal/assist from players in that deep position? If you don't know what to expect from a player in that role, let me spell it to you. His job is to control the midfield and dictate the tempo of the match.
Let me also tell you that Kagawa had good games in the two matches. He was the main reason the team were able to control the game better in the 2nd half against Roma and L.a Galaxy. Van Gaal affirmed that the team were able to dominate the midfield in the 2nd half against Roma and this coincided with Kagawa's arrival on the pitch in the 2nd half.
Infact, he was arguably the best player in the pitch and he was able to archieve this against a midfield of the likes of Pjanic and Totti who came on for Roma in the 2nd half. Van Gaal interview on the match is here: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/27/manchester-united-roma-louis-van-gaal-denver.
Kagawa was also the reason behind our urgent tempo in the 2nd half of the L.a Galaxy game.
In the 1st half of that game, the team have to bank on Welbeck 25+ yard goal, a penalty and a goal resulting from a defensive error without actually creating any meaniful chances until Kagawa came on in the 2nd half. There was a huge increase in our tempo with Kagawa in midfield in the 2nd half compared to the sluggish tempo the team built in the 1st half.
I can say it with huge confidence that eventhough Herrera was the source of our creativity in the 2nd half, every play went through Kagawa and without him providing Herrera the incisive and penetrative passes to open up spaces for Herrera to exploit, Herrera wouldn't have made much impact.
In the Inter and Madrid match, Kagawa played as a no 10 and only a blind fellow would say he didn't see the numerous chances fashioned out by him in those games. He also had a good cameo against Liverpool although was non-existent against Valencia which I can't blame him because he only had 15 mins to impress in that game and not mention the many changes that were made by both teams in that 15 mins!
I repeat Kagawa was one of our best players in the preseason despite playing with the B-team.
As for Van Gaal, he have to come out with something better before I would accept Kagawa didn't actually fit his philosophy when we all know Kagawa did better than Mata in that philosophy in the pre-season. He probably thinks only players that scores goals had a good game. Whatever.
I'm happy and disappointed to see Kagawa leave. However, it's actually a step up for him and I wish him best of luck.

Alex99 · Aug 29, 2014

Diadem [USER=63673]@t.banty[/USER] said:
I'm happy to see you lose it. That's what happens to people who pulled up ridiculous untruthful facts from nowhere and when they are called out, they have nothing else than to resort to insult. Such a shame.
Back to the topic, I said Mata was 'shitier' than Kagawa on the wing for us but you claimed otherwise and now that I gave you a cold hard fact, you're changing tune.
And do I need to remind you Kagawa played in the central midfield against Roma and Galaxy for you to know that you can't expect goal/assist from players in that deep position? If you don't know what to expect from a player in that role, let me spell it to you. His job is to control the midfield and dictate the tempo of the match.
Let me also tell you that Kagawa had good games in the two matches. He was the main reason the team were able to control the game better in the 2nd half against Roma and L.a Galaxy. Van Gaal affirmed that the team were able to dominate the midfield in the 2nd half against Roma and this coincided with Kagawa's arrival on the pitch in the 2nd half.
Infact, he was arguably the best player in the pitch and he was able to archieve this against a midfield of the likes of Pjanic and Totti who came on for Roma in the 2nd half. Van Gaal interview on the match is here: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/27/manchester-united-roma-louis-van-gaal-denver.
Kagawa was also the reason behind our urgent tempo in the 2nd half of the L.a Galaxy game.
In the 1st half of that game, the team have to bank on Welbeck 25+ yard goal, a penalty and a goal resulting from a defensive error without actually creating any meaniful chances until Kagawa came on in the 2nd half. There was a huge increase in our tempo with Kagawa in midfield in the 2nd half compared to the sluggish tempo the team built in the 1st half.
I can say it with huge confidence that eventhough Herrera was the source of our creativity in the 2nd half, every play went through Kagawa and without him providing Herrera the incisive and penetrative passes to open up spaces for Herrera to exploit, Herrera wouldn't have made much impact.
In the Inter and Madrid match, Kagawa played as a no 10 and only a blind fellow would say he didn't see the numerous chances fashioned out by him in those games. He also had a good cameo against Liverpool although was non-existent against Valencia which I can't blame him because he only had 15 mins to impress in that game and not mention the many changes that were made by both teams in that 15 mins!
I repeat Kagawa was one of our best players in the preseason despite playing with the B-team.
As for Van Gaal, he have to come out with something better before I would accept Kagawa didn't actually fit his philosophy when we all know Kagawa did better than Mata in that philosophy in the pre-season. He probably thinks only players that scores goals had a good game. Whatever.
I'm happy and disappointed to see Kagawa leave. However, it's actually a step up for him and I wish him best of luck.

You've not given me any facts, you just keep making things up and presenting them as facts.

Also, we collapsed in the 2nd half against Roma, so I'm not exactly sure how Kagawa 'dominated' the midfield.

van Gaal literally watches him every day. He knows who can play where and who can't.

Keep making things up bud, you've lost the plot.

JeffBoomTetris · Aug 29, 2014

Diadem [USER=63673]@t.banty[/USER] said:
I'm happy to see you lose it. That's what happens to people who pulled up ridiculous untruthful facts from nowhere and when they are called out, they have nothing else than to resort to insult. Such a shame.
Back to the topic, I said Mata was 'shitier' than Kagawa on the wing for us but you claimed otherwise and now that I gave you a cold hard fact, you're changing tune.
And do I need to remind you Kagawa played in the central midfield against Roma and Galaxy for you to know that you can't expect goal/assist from players in that deep position? If you don't know what to expect from a player in that role, let me spell it to you. His job is to control the midfield and dictate the tempo of the match.
Let me also tell you that Kagawa had good games in the two matches. He was the main reason the team were able to control the game better in the 2nd half against Roma and L.a Galaxy. Van Gaal affirmed that the team were able to dominate the midfield in the 2nd half against Roma and this coincided with Kagawa's arrival on the pitch in the 2nd half.
Infact, he was arguably the best player in the pitch and he was able to archieve this against a midfield of the likes of Pjanic and Totti who came on for Roma in the 2nd half. Van Gaal interview on the match is here: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/27/manchester-united-roma-louis-van-gaal-denver.
Kagawa was also the reason behind our urgent tempo in the 2nd half of the L.a Galaxy game.
In the 1st half of that game, the team have to bank on Welbeck 25+ yard goal, a penalty and a goal resulting from a defensive error without actually creating any meaniful chances until Kagawa came on in the 2nd half. There was a huge increase in our tempo with Kagawa in midfield in the 2nd half compared to the sluggish tempo the team built in the 1st half.
I can say it with huge confidence that eventhough Herrera was the source of our creativity in the 2nd half, every play went through Kagawa and without him providing Herrera the incisive and penetrative passes to open up spaces for Herrera to exploit, Herrera wouldn't have made much impact.
In the Inter and Madrid match, Kagawa played as a no 10 and only a blind fellow would say he didn't see the numerous chances fashioned out by him in those games. He also had a good cameo against Liverpool although was non-existent against Valencia which I can't blame him because he only had 15 mins to impress in that game and not mention the many changes that were made by both teams in that 15 mins!
I repeat Kagawa was one of our best players in the preseason despite playing with the B-team.
As for Van Gaal, he have to come out with something better before I would accept Kagawa didn't actually fit his philosophy when we all know Kagawa did better than Mata in that philosophy in the pre-season. He probably thinks only players that scores goals had a good game. Whatever.
I'm happy and disappointed to see Kagawa leave. However, it's actually a step up for him and I wish him best of luck.

I chuckled on that bolded green part.

Kagawa was good that match. But we need consistently productive players. Kagawa is not that. Mata is better in that aspect.

But instead of a one-sided argumentative idiot, I will say this: Kagawa is a good player. Can control the pace and create space of a game.And brings out the best in players like Mata.

Diadem @t.banty · Aug 29, 2014

Emdad Ahmed said:
I chuckled on that bolded green part.

Kagawa was good that match. But we need consistently productive players. Kagawa is not that. Mata is better in that aspect.

But instead of a one-sided argumentative idiot, I will say this: Kagawa is a good player. Can control the pace and create space of a game.And brings out the best in players like Mata.

Apart from tap in and free kicks, what else does Mata offers?
Mata is a second striker, I repeat he's second striker. The sooner people realize this, the better but it will be too late.
In addition, what did Herrera do in the Galaxy game before Kagawa arrival on the pitch? Afterall, he was interchanging with Mata but still offered nothing.
And do you know why the team have been poor so far? Not because they lacked creative players but what they lack is a player to dictate and create space for the creative players to exploit. That's exactly what Kagawa offers but it's a pity Van Gaal only looked at goals.
It will be sad and at the same time, fun to see Van Gaal looking for how the team will dictate and build up the tempo when he let go such player in his care.

Diadem @t.banty · Aug 29, 2014

Alex99 said:
You've not given me any facts, you just keep making things up and presenting them as facts.

Also, we collapsed in the 2nd half against Roma, so I'm not exactly sure how Kagawa 'dominated' the midfield.

van Gaal literally watches him every day. He knows who can play where and who can't.

Keep making things up bud, you've lost the plot.

The team didn't fall apart in the 2nd half against Roma. Roma's goals came from a penalty as a result of Keane's mistake and a ridiculous Pjanic 70 yard goal.
Apart from this, Roma weren't able to create anything in the 2nd half despite having their best players on the pitch at that time compared to the numerous chances Destro missed for them in the 1st half. It's a wonder I'm telling you all this when you claimed to watch the game.
And who's making up facts when it was you who said Mata only played 3 times as a no 10 for us? Look here, I don't play unnecessary games.
Let me also tell you that Van Gaal didn't mention Kagawa's training. He said specifically that Kagawa didn't impress him in the U.S.A which is quite ridiculous because Kagawa was one of our best player!

Alex99 · Aug 29, 2014

Diadem [USER=63673]@t.banty[/USER] said:
The team didn't fall apart in the 2nd half against Roma. Roma's goals came from a penalty as a result of Keane's mistake and a ridiculous Pjanic 70 yard goal.
Apart from this, Roma weren't able to create anything in the 2nd half despite having their best players on the pitch at that time compared to the numerous chances Destro missed for them in the 1st half. It's a wonder I'm telling you all this when you claimed to watch the game.
And who's making up facts when it was you who said Mata only played 3 times as a no 10 for us? Look here, I don't play unnecessary games.
Let me also tell you that Van Gaal didn't mention Kagawa's training. He said specifically that Kagawa didn't impress him in the U.S.A which is quite ridiculous because Kagawa was one of our best player!

Roma had a number of chances to equalise. It was by no means a comfortable victory. They missed a couple of chances in the first half, but were looking very comfortable.

I literally wrote a list that showed that Mata had a long run of games on the wing, then was very productive at No. 10. I never said he only played 3 games there, I just said that he played a good number of games on the wing, and by no means had been granted game after game as No.10 whilst playing crap. You are literally incapable of not making stuff up.

van Gaal said in the US. He didn't specify in matches. There's no way that he wasn't also playing Kagawa there in training, and there's no way he'd have based his opinion on a couple of 45 minute stints in a mismatched preseason team. You're talking out of your arse, again.

Edit: And Kagawa was no where near being one of the best players in the US. Repeating it a million times doesn't make it true.

Diadem @t.banty · Aug 29, 2014

Alex99 said:
Roma had a number of chances to equalise. It was by no means a comfortable victory. They missed a couple of chances in the first half, but were looking very comfortable.

I literally wrote a list that showed that Mata had a long run of games on the wing, then was very productive at No. 10. I never said he only played 3 games there, I just said that he played a good number of games on the wing, and by no means had been granted game after game as No.10 whilst playing crap. You are literally incapable of not making stuff up.

van Gaal said in the US. He didn't specify in matches. There's no way that he wasn't also playing Kagawa there in training, and there's no way he'd have based his opinion on a couple of 45 minute stints in a mismatched preseason team. You're talking out of your arse, again.

Edit: And Kagawa was no where near being one of the best players in the US. Repeating it a million times doesn't make it true.

Who said such? The fact remains that Roma created plenty of chances in the 1st half than the 2nd half. Even Blackett looked much more comfortable in the 2nd half than the 1st half despite Roma having their best players on the pitch because the team controlled the midfield better which Van Gaal affirmed.
Also, you said Mata's best run in the no 10 was 3 times when he had more than 8 games there. I don't exactly know what you're now claimimg here.
Lastly, Van Gaal always said he mostly judge his player's performance on the pitch. That was what he said and Kagawa impressed in every damn game he played except the 15 mins cameo he had against Valencia. If that's not a good impression, then I don't know it is.

He was one of our best player, that's a fact and nothing you say would change the fact!

Alex99 · Aug 29, 2014

Diadem [USER=63673]@t.banty[/USER] said:
Who said such? The fact remains that Roma created plenty of chances in the 1st half than the 2nd half. Even Blackett looked much more comfortable in the 2nd half than the 1st half despite Roma having their best players on the pitch because the team controlled the midfield better which Van Gaal affirmed.
Also, you said Mata's best run in the no 10 was 3 times when he had more than 8 games there. I don't exactly know what you're now claimimg here.
Lastly, Van Gaal always said he mostly judge his player's performance on the pitch. That was what he said and Kagawa impressed in every damn game he played except the 15 mins cameo he had against Valencia. If that's not a good impression, then I don't know it is.

He was one of our best player, that's a fact and nothing you say would change the fact!

Watching the game showed that we looked shaky in the second half, especially after their second goal. Kagawa certainly did nothing special.

I thought his run as No.10 had been interrupted by wing appearances. Turns out he just had an impressive run as No.10. I said all this earlier in the thread.

Look, no matter how much you say something is a fact, it doesn't actually make it a fact. He wasn't one of our best players, and that's reflected in the amount of game time he got, his lack of starts, and him being out of favour coming into the season. van Gaal will not have ignored what happened in training, and you having a hard-on for Kagawa means nothing to anyone.

Are you going to keep spouting this nonsense about Kagawa being the best player or should we leave it here?

Diadem @t.banty · Aug 29, 2014

Alex99 said:
Watching the game showed that we looked shaky in the second half, especially after their second goal. Kagawa certainly did nothing special.

I thought his run as No.10 had been interrupted by wing appearances. Turns out he just had an impressive run as No.10. I said all this earlier in the thread.

Look, no matter how much you say something is a fact, it doesn't actually make it a fact. He wasn't one of our best players, and that's reflected in the amount of game time he got, his lack of starts, and him being out of favour coming into the season. van Gaal will not have ignored what happened in training, and you having a hard-on for Kagawa means nothing to anyone.

Are you going to keep spouting this nonsense about Kagawa being the best player or should we leave it here?

Looked shaky in the 2nd half when the likes of Destro had numerous chances that he failed to finished off in the 1st half?
Looked shaky when Van Gaal himself said the team controlled the midfield better in the 2nd half? Are you actually for real? Because this is the worst argument I've ever encountered, same with your ridiculous untruthful bullshit fact.
In short, I'm done with this stupid argument.

Alex99 · Aug 29, 2014

Diadem [USER=63673]@t.banty[/USER] said:
Looked shaky in the 2nd half when the likes of Destro had numerous chances that he failed to finished off in the 1st half?
Looked shaky when Van Gaal himself said the team controlled the midfield better in the 2nd half? Are you actually for real? Because this is the worst argument I've ever encountered, same with your ridiculous untruthful bullshit fact.
In short, I'm done with this stupid argument.

There's only one of us making stuff up about the Roma game and it's you.

Van Gaal said this after the match: "When you are 3-0 ahead, you just have to keep the ball as opponent has to run and run...We forgot to do that and we allowed Rome back into the game. I am pleased we have won, but it was not good."

He literally said we were poor in the second half and let Roma back into the game.

I'm guessing you're done because you're running out of things to lie about, no?

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