How Important are our next homegrown class?

Wasn't sure which thread to mention this in, but ...

Not very important if they don’t turn out to be very good, very important if they do.

They will always be given preferential treatment if they are of the required standard, but I’d prefer us not to compromise if they are not. That said, I think a few of them are/will be. Mason, Laird and Mejbri are as talented as any counterpart.

Rasendori said:

Wasn't sure which thread to mention this in, but ...

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If we werent 5th in the league that would be a lot more impressive

Ekeke said:

If we werent 5th in the league that would be a lot more impressive

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If we were 6th?

Aloysius's Back 3 said:

I keep thinking about this. Whether Ole is the right man for us or not long term - the most important thing he has to do is bring our next batch of youngsters to the forefront to be ready for next season.

We don't just have a problem with our first team - this will need some proper transfers to improve it - however we have a problem with out whole squad of 25-30 players.

There's potential CB that is already better than the dross like Rojo or Bailly. There are already fullbacks that are better than young and can provide competition for Shaw. We already have youngsters who are so called the next Carrick's whilst we have none in our First team. We have forwards that are clinical with their left foot whilst seemingly having a good acute technical ability. We have AM and RW in our reserves that are better than anybody in our First team because we actually have none.

In my opinion this pre season and next season is the most important - we need our next class to be part of our squad to remove the deadwood whilst giving them the chance to compete for the first team spot.

I do not want to think that the Class of 92 was a one off - that class was our foundation of winning 2 CL titles nearly a decade apart from each other & I don't see why that should be any different now.

We largely undervalue our youth system whilst teams at the top like Barcelona and Madrid of the pasts seasons keep doing so and finding players that were previously in their reserves. The same goes for many other clubs than us. We had Pogba in our youth team who is a 90 mil player & to think we don't have anymore of atleast some quality is delusional.

This is why Ole is important for atleast one season - because the squad needs to be built around of youth team.

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Good Post. Whatever we think of Ole, he is bringing these kids in and getting rid of players he knows that wont be here for the long run.

I have seen numerous posts about signing a new CB, why spend £50m on a backup CB? It seems the likes of Mengi and bernard are up and coming. I am sure we can go another season or two with Maguire, Lindelof, Bailly and Tuanzebe.

Like you said, we have a few good talents in the wings in different positions, which is why I do not mind us not spending millions on a striker or a CB or CM. We should spend money on players that will enhance the squad now.

Again, like you say, we undervalue our youth system with fans calling for us to spend £50m plus on a striker when a 18 year old is coming through, or spending £60/70m on Koulibaly.

I also do understand not all of the youngsters will make it at United but I hope 3/4 of those youngsters make it into the first team challenging for titles.

Rozay said:

Not very important if they don’t turn out to be very good, very important if they do.

They will always be given preferential treatment if they are of the required standard, but I’d prefer us not to compromise if they are not. That said, I think a few of them are/will be. Mason, Laird and Mejbri are as talented as any counterpart.

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Yea exactly if they are of the Rashford,Greenwood, Pogba caliber they should be get every opportunity to cement their place in the first team,but we seem to be too sentimental playing guys we would never consider purchasing if they played elsewhere,players like Lingard,Perriera,Fosu mensah.

Looking at Perriera performances on loan at Granada and Valencia,he didn't look united quality but was still integrated back instead of sold.while,players like Gomes, Chong,Garner,Laird should have gone on loans this season it would have been better for their development,instead we kept them on the fringes

That's seriously impressive that we're ahead of Athletic, how is that even possible?

Trex said:

Yea exactly if they are of the Rashford,Greenwood, Pogba caliber they should be get every opportunity to cement their place in the first team,but we seem to be too sentimental playing guys we would never consider purchasing if they played elsewhere,players like Lingard,Perriera,Fosu mensah.

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Yeah but if given the chance, few of the ManUtd fans would have sold him to championship club even last season.

It's not always you can see if the player is of required quality, few players shows their quality very early and few of them takes time to adapt to higher level.

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Yeah but if given the chance, few of the ManUtd fans would have sold him to championship club even last season.

It's not always you can see if the player is of required quality, few players shows their quality very early and few of them takes time to adapt to higher level.
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Same Rashford who scored 8 in his first 15 games, he has had his ups and down but has never not looked "not good enough",how good has Perriera ever looked playing first team football,United is an elite club,they need to be earning their spots in the team

Trex said:

Same Rashford who scored 8 in his first 15 games, he has had his ups and down but has never not looked "not good enough",how good has Perriera ever looked playing first team football,United is an elite club,they need to be earning their spots in the team

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The likes of Periera and Lingard only saw game time last season due to a lack of alternatives in the positions they occupied. When suitable replacements materialized - Mctominay progressing fast, Fred becoming a reliable player and the purchase of Bruno - they were dispensed with quickly. They barely saw any game time in the second half of the season, a trend that is likely to continue when the season starts up again.

Ole is quickly fazing out the below-average members of the squad and replacing them with better players. His strike-rate in the transfer market is near-enough 100% so far.

Trex said:

Yea exactly if they are of the Rashford,Greenwood, Pogba caliber they should be get every opportunity to cement their place in the first team,but we seem to be too sentimental playing guys we would never consider purchasing if they played elsewhere,players like Lingard,Perriera,Fosu mensah.

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Exactly my thoughts, we keep wasting time with players who are clearly not good enough just because theyre homegrown.

We should sell all those players while theyre young 20-22 with a buy back clause that way if they eventually turn out good enough we can buy them back.

Instead we have Lingard and Pereira who are shit and overpaid.

Random Task said:

The likes of Periera and Lingard only saw game time last season due to a lack of alternatives in the positions they occupied. When suitable replacements materialized - Mctominay progressing fast, Fred becoming a reliable player and the purchase of Bruno - they were dispensed with quickly. They barely saw any game time in the second half of the season, a trend that is likely to continue when the season starts up again.

Ole is quickly fazing out the below-average members of the squad and replacing them with better players. His strike-rate in the transfer market is near-enough 100% so far.

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Those players cannot even say they were not given the chance. Lingard / Perreira were starters in the first half of the season where we lacked creativity.

The Bruno signing showed the difference in quality.

I'm really excited for this batch of youngsters, Mason, Chong, Garner, Gomes and Williams all have a real amount of talent.

Mejbri and Shoretire are standouts from the next batch. Edit - and Mengi - can't believe I forgot him!

Great times ahead I think.

Random Task said:

The likes of Periera and Lingard only saw game time last season due to a lack of alternatives in the positions they occupied. When suitable replacements materialized - Mctominay progressing fast, Fred becoming a reliable player and the purchase of Bruno - they were dispensed with quickly. They barely saw any game time in the second half of the season, a trend that is likely to continue when the season starts up again.

Ole is quickly fazing out the below-average members of the squad and replacing them with better players. His strike-rate in the transfer market is near-enough 100% so far.

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I agree. People are rightly irritated by us hanging onto players who have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they are not good enough (Jones, Pereira, Lingard spring to mind, Darmian stayed at least a season too long for my liking) but do not want to accept that it takes time to get a bloated squad far poorer than the sum of its expensive parts turned around, plus as you say Ole has done well in the transfer market so far. In terms of the youngsters coming through it remains to be seen what work Ole has done and will do in the near future with them, but I've been impressed with Greenwood's impact and how he has been used by Ole.

In that now-legendary Ole: Stay or Go? poll I went Ole Out, I think when results and performances were dire around Christmas or just before, because I could just not see where we were going under his management. Now I'm feeling much more optimistic and when we get back to some actual football I'd love Ole to stuff my negative vote down my throat.

That 40% is misleading. Bar few examples we are basically creating players for other clubs and we are doing it for free. We don't even sell them for decent fee

Trex said:

Same Rashford who scored 8 in his first 15 games, he has had his ups and down but has never not looked "not good enough",how good has Perriera ever looked playing first team football,United is an elite club,they need to be earning their spots in the team

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You have missed the period where people couldn't wait to write him off saying "championship quality" "won't start for any team in PL" "Rashford" "worse than Welbeck" period.

Yeah players like Lingard and Pereira have no future at ManUtd. They are not very young and they have got many chances. I'm talking more about players who step up from academy to first team.

Andycoleno9 said:

That 40% is misleading. Bar few examples we are basically creating players for other clubs and we are doing it for free. We don't even sell them for decent fee

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This is one of the most annoying things about us.

Look at the price Liverpool / Chelsea / Arsennal have sold some players:
Ibe - 17m
Allen - 14m
Sakho - 25m
Solanke - 20m
Ings - 20m

Ake - 20m
Matic - 40m
Costa - 60m
Morata - 50m

Iwobi - 30m
Ox - 35m

Whereas we sell for
Evans - 7m
Michael Keane - 2m
Depay - 15m

Question - is Pogba considered home grown for us?

Freak said:

Question - is Pogba considered home grown for us?

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Yes.

Andycoleno9 said:

That 40% is misleading. Bar few examples we are basically creating players for other clubs and we are doing it for free. We don't even sell them for decent fee

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We have around 20 outfield players, 40% of that is around 8 players.

Rashford, Pogba, Greenwood, Mctominay, Shaw (Yes he is counted but ideally he shouldn't), Lingard, Pereira, Williams all played regularly for us and then players like Tuanzebe played in cup games.

We have to back our academy all the time because we have a history of producing some of the best talents in the world. We have learnt a huge deal from when we let go off Pogba and got him back for a then world record fee. I hope we never make such a mistake again. Ole identifies the best academy products and i'm very sure he will bring the best of them into the first team every chance he gets. I love it when we don't have to go into the market to find stars when we have amazing talent in Rashford, Mctominay, Greenwood, Tuanxebe, Fosu-mensah, Williams and so. Its amazing how well they're doing under Ole. We didn't believe in Ole when he first took over, we all thought it was a mistake when he was given a permanent contract after winning 11 games on the trot and i was one of them but it's not the case anymore, he has proven us all wrong and i think he is right person for the job. I've always loved him as a player because he was always smiling and when on the pitch he gave it everything he had and now he's transferring his energy to the boys. The man is in love with the club, that's my first positive thought when i think of him. He knows the ways of Sir Alex and although the game has changed a lot, i'm sure Sir Alex did so much as the game was changing during his time as well. He was here at the top for 26 years and the football went through so many changes during that time and yet when he left, he left us with a title in hand. Ole is the guy to bring the glory back to us now, he has SAF's backing and he's so close to find help anytime and then, all his former teammates believe he is doing the right things which gives us more confidence. Forget the market except for Sancho because i believe he is just the only one player we need to really push for the title. Everything else is in place for the glory days to be back. Even if we do not manage to get him, we have the likes of James, Rashford who can both shift to the right if asked to do so and i also believe Dalot can sometimes play on the RW against smaller teams. So, next year is ours (You see what i did there :P)

Very f-ing important. Historically, the base of the club has always been academy products.
Lingard, Pogba.
Rashford, McT, Tuanzebe, Henderson.
Greenwood, Chong, Gomes, Williams, Laird, Garner, Levitt.
Mengi, Elanga, Hannibal, Shoretire.

12OunceEpilogue said:

I agree. People are rightly irritated by us hanging onto players who have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they are not good enough (Jones, Pereira, Lingard spring to mind, Darmian stayed at least a season too long for my liking) but do not want to accept that it takes time to get a bloated squad far poorer than the sum of its expensive parts turned around, plus as you say Ole has done well in the transfer market so far. In terms of the youngsters coming through it remains to be seen what work Ole has done and will do in the near future with them, but I've been impressed with Greenwood's impact and how he has been used by Ole.

In that now-legendary Ole: Stay or Go? poll I went Ole Out, I think when results and performances were dire around Christmas or just before, because I could just not see where we were going under his management. Now I'm feeling much more optimistic and when we get back to some actual football I'd love Ole to stuff my negative vote down my throat.

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I was Ole Out most of the season too (most of us were if we're being honest). It wasn't until the team began showing genuine progress after the new year that I was fully on board. My only hope is that the break in the season hasn't interrupted our momentum. We were one of the leagues in-form teams before the hiatus.

Manchester United's best ever years have primarily been when players who come through the youth/academy set up have made up a fair percentage of the team/squad, right back to the 'Busby Babes' era. The strength of the youth/academy therefore seems to have a significant effect on how successful the first team is during the following years. To me, we certainly need to have a ready supply of talented players coming through the system, buying your way to titles appears to not be the United way, although there is, and will be, times when we need to 'splash the cash' on the 'right' player(s) to make the team complete. Sancho, or a similar type of player, is certainly required for our right side, but do we really need a CB, DM, AM, etc? Just looking at some of our up and coming players who may, or may not make it at United, we have Henderson, Kovar in goal, Laird at FB, Tuanzebe, Bernard and Mengi at CB, Gomes, Garner, Levitt, Galbraith, Puigmal, Mejbri and Iqbal in midfield, Chong, Ramizani, Mellor, Elanga, Hoogenwerf, Mejia, Emerson and Shoretire in attack(apologies to those I've missed). There are obviously more that I haven't named, and I'm aware that a fair number of those will not make it at United, but I'm hopeful that we could get half a dozen who could get into the first team over the next three to four years, by then De Gea, Jones, Rojo, Smalling, Matic, Mata, Fred, Pogba, Lingard, Pereira may have gone (some most certainly will have). So I think the academy is looking in a much better state than it has done for a few years, possibly since Eric Harrison left, so I'm confident that we will be competing for the big trophies from next season onwards. I think Ole has done brilliantly so far, and, like SAF, he has put a lot of effort into getting the academy in a strong position, so to answer the question, it is very important that our academy is always looking to get the best talent available, keep the production line going.

Very. I feel like Van Gaal and Mourinho set us back hugely in that regard.

But the club shouldn't just take the players from academy. If there are great young players in other clubs who the club could buy, then do it...

I don't know just how effective our scouting network is. Seems like Madrid and Barcelona always get the best young talents before the english clubs.

Ekeke said:

If we werent 5th in the league that would be a lot more impressive

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It's still very impressive. Having that amount of academy kids come through and look at Premier League level is an amazing achievement.

You can criticise the likes of Pereira, Lingard, etc (I certainly have), but they're still successful academy graduates (and internationals) that wouldn't look out of place in the majority of Premier League sides. We should be thankful for the fact that if we have a bad couple of transfer windows, we're consistently producing Premier League level players that can step in and do a job, even if they shouldn't be expected to be prominent fixtures in the side long-term.

We've also produced one world class and one potentially world class player in the last decade in Pogba and Rashford, which I consider a major success.

I get the concern that reliance on the academy will lead to us spending less in the transfer market, but I actually think we're currently striking an excellent balance. We're still investing heavily (150mil invested the past summer is significant whatever way you slice it), but also utilising the academy to plug gaps in the short-term.

And there's also the question of identity. I'm not English, so to some extent it's strange that I care about this so much, but for me giving youth a chance is so synonymous with why I fell in love with United that I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be with supporting the club if it no longer considered that important. Values help fans identify with the club, especially when times are tough, and grounding the club in an identity can be a great foundation for success.

Rozay said:

Not very important if they don’t turn out to be very good, very important if they do.

They will always be given preferential treatment if they are of the required standard, but I’d prefer us not to compromise if they are not. That said, I think a few of them are/will be. Mason, Laird and Mejbri are as talented as any counterpart.

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Exactly. This simple measurement of homegrown % doesn't tell you whether they are good enough to be in 1st team, or 1st 11. It only tells you some boys are good enough, or manager being generous enough, to let them warm the bench. There should be a next benchmark, such as whether anyone end up playing 15+ games a season thereafter, consistently, or 30+ games.

Trex said:

Looking at Perriera performances on loan at Granada and Valencia,he didn't look united quality

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At Granada, he does.
No idea what happened at Val.

The #3rd post by Rozay already answer this.

Btw, is Ole really all that...? It remains to be seen, still early days. We only know he will try and yet he also bring in talents from outside.

Only Greenwood and Brandon Will isn't it that are successfully integrated. Two. Just two.

Out of the duo, only Greenwood that seems likely to last long. BW need to prove he's "here to stay and fight" next season onwards, we had too many youth in the past that are only all that in their first season.

Web of Bissaka said:

The #3rd post by Rozay already answer this.

Btw, is Ole really all that...? It remains to be seen, still early days. We only know he will try and yet he also bring in talents from outside.

Only Greenwood and Brandon Will isn't it that are successfully integrated. Two. Just two.

Out of the duo, only Greenwood that seems likely to last long. BW need to prove he's "here to stay and fight" next season onwards, we had too many youth in the past that are only all that in their first season.

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True, I don't think Ole is particularly a fan of youth players. When we lacked a winger last season, he chose to play Dalot instead of handing chances to Chong (although his potential was limited imo). When Lingard and Pereira had been widely considered as disappointing this season, he stuck with them rather than trusting in Gomes. Greenwood should arguably be provided with more opportunities given his impressive performances.

I know it's still early days but so far Ole hasn't shown many signs that he favors youth players. For me he just uses them as many other managers do. I hope he will try more extensively after the team has been stabilized but I doubt it's the case. It's also interesting to see how he handles the Henderson situation, where Henderson definitely has the United quality but we also have a long term contract with de Gea.

Trusting youth players doesn't mean trusting every young player and in every scenario.

Random Task said:

The likes of Periera and Lingard only saw game time last season due to a lack of alternatives in the positions they occupied. When suitable replacements materialized - Mctominay progressing fast, Fred becoming a reliable player and the purchase of Bruno - they were dispensed with quickly. They barely saw any game time in the second half of the season, a trend that is likely to continue when the season starts up again.

Ole is quickly fazing out the below-average members of the squad and replacing them with better players. His strike-rate in the transfer market is near-enough 100% so far.

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I fully agree. At last since Fergie we have a manager who isnt looking short term, but is looking for the benefit of the team in the medium and long also. Ole is showing that he can spot a player who improves the team straight away. He is genuinely giving chances to the very best kids and not just 5 mins at the end of a game to pay lip service to the youth. In fact whether we finish in the top 4 or not I would like Ole to be given at least another season. I admit I voted to sack end of the season, but in the last 10 games or so you can see his vision coming together.

Mr Smith said:

It's still very impressive. Having that amount of academy kids come through and look at Premier League level is an amazing achievement.

You can criticise the likes of Pereira, Lingard, etc (I certainly have), but they're still successful academy graduates (and internationals) that wouldn't look out of place in the majority of Premier League sides. We should be thankful for the fact that if we have a bad couple of transfer windows, we're consistently producing Premier League level players that can step in and do a job, even if they shouldn't be expected to be prominent fixtures in the side long-term.

We've also produced one world class and one potentially world class player in the last decade in Pogba and Rashford, which I consider a major success.

I get the concern that reliance on the academy will lead to us spending less in the transfer market, but I actually think we're currently striking an excellent balance. We're still investing heavily (150mil invested the past summer is significant whatever way you slice it), but also utilising the academy to plug gaps in the short-term.

And there's also the question of identity. I'm not English, so to some extent it's strange that I care about this so much, but for me giving youth a chance is so synonymous with why I fell in love with United that I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be with supporting the club if it no longer considered that important. Values help fans identify with the club, especially when times are tough, and grounding the club in an identity can be a great foundation for success.

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I think it can clearly be tied to us being 5th in the league. Less competition for places so players of less quality get more chances. If we were 3rd I expect that number to be down, and if we were 1st in the league I think it would be down even more. Thats not to say we wouldnt still have the top or one of the top percentages, but I dont think the clubs who are doing better than us will say they wish they were 5th in the league but had a higher number of homegrown players. You'd want to be in the mix for the top clubs in the league as well as having a good amount of homegrown players

I'm not saying we shouldnt rely on youth, perhaps the ones we've chosen to go with so far might not be the right ones however. For example whats going on with Gomes, a player who clearly had a bunch of the qualities we lacked with Pogba injured nearly the whole season. He could have had a lot more chances and because it was an area we sorely needed some improvement we'd probably have done better results wise because of it.

Ekeke said:

I think it can clearly be tied to us being 5th in the league. Less competition for places so players of less quality get more chances. If we were 3rd I expect that number to be down, and if we were 1st in the league I think it would be down even more. Thats not to say we wouldnt still have the top or one of the top percentages, but I dont think the clubs who are doing better than us will say they wish they were 5th in the league but had a higher number of homegrown players. You'd want to be in the mix for the top clubs in the league as well as having a good amount of homegrown players

I'm not saying we shouldnt rely on youth, perhaps the ones we've chosen to go with so far might not be the right ones however. For example whats going on with Gomes, a player who clearly had a bunch of the qualities we lacked with Pogba injured nearly the whole season. He could have had a lot more chances and because it was an area we sorely needed some improvement we'd probably have done better results wise because of it.

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Yeah I wouldn't disagree with that, there certainly would be less academy players playing this season if we had started with the squad we wanted. I guess I was more emphasising that you can point to the amount of academy players playing as a sign our squad requires greater investment, while still being proud of the fact that we have academy graduates good enough to keep us in 5th. I honestly feel if any other club had started the season with a squad with the age and experience of ours, they would have dropped like a stone.

Definitely agree on Gomez, not sure why he hasn't featured more this year. I'm assuming the coaching staff know something we don't, and figure he's not quite ready yet.

Web of Bissaka said:

At Granada, he does.
No idea what happened at Val.

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that season at Granada he did look promising but with the need to show more before getting a chance which he didn't do at Valencia, Madrid has Odegaard and Hakimi on loan,Odegaard is not even expected to return next season,and we have Perriera getting 20+ appearance and Gomes holding us to ransom over a contract,the club needs to find a balance in giving youth a chance at the moment it's too easy

Web of Bissaka said:

At Granada, he does.
No idea what happened at Val.

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that season at Granada he did look promising but with the need to show more before getting a chance which he didn't do at Valencia, Madrid has Odegaard and Hakimi on loan,Odegaard is not even expected to return next season,and we have Perriera getting 20+ appearance and Gomes holding us to ransom over a contract,the club needs to find a balance in giving youth a chance at the moment it's too easy

Ole's test on youth will be if he actually drops a more senior player for one of them when on form. As it stands Shaw was straight back in and Greenwood only got proper time when others injured. Which certainly might be fair but it's the next step of properly integrating them that's key.

I'd have liked Axel to have got more time on the pitch or loaned out and Gomes certainly could have played some more minutes.

Not saying he's done bad on this front. 1 or 2 a season is what you'd expect as the target.

roonster09 said:

Trusting youth players doesn't mean trusting every young player and in every scenario.

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This is a point that deserves more emphasis on it!

He’s got a good record so far of trusting the right young players in the right scenarios. Developing youth at a club like United isn’t about just throwing them in at the deep end starting all the time.

It’s about allowing the mental, physical and tactical development of the young player so that they can cope at top level football.

Mental being number one.