We played a high line and tried to dominate the ball in Smalling's best season under LVG
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I like how people rate Southgate so much, and yet the biggest game you always mention is your win against mixed Spain side in pretty much friendly game(after losing from the same side on Wembley). But then many people wanted Southgate here so what can you expect.
We also never gave the ball away and just passed it around our midfield until we 'won' the game 0-0. If VG's United are your barometer, I understand why you think Smalling is good enough.
Blind was the ball playing defender. Smalling was the one winning all the aerial duels and intercepting the ball. we also had a passing DM like carrick infront so there's two people that were passing. Smalling can't pass regardless of what set up he had to focus on the physical stuff and it will look even worse when there's no passing centre back or he will look like a headless chicken. We can find a physically dominant center back that can pass in the market.
England and Southgate are picking players from how they want to play. Which is admirable IMO.So, England are picking bad defenders on purpose?
Or maybe you can just face facts, that Smalling is an average defender who isn't at the top level.
Players and defenders especially need to be judged from the system they do play.
Smalling is a top-3 centreback in a lowblock defending team in the PL. Perfect for Mourinho-ball.
Would Pep ever play him for City. No. Nor would any other possession-oriented team.
But that is not where we are today. I sincerely hope OGS will take us to a higher line and higher pressing game with a lot of possession.
But until we are there, Smalling is the best we have got as we are playing right now and have been for the last couple of years.
Against my own argumentation here to be fair he actually did quite well with Blind in a more possession-oriented system with a high line under LvG. But that had a lot to do with Blind being excellent on the ball. So underrated, Blind was.
Smalling needs to be kept around until we transit to another type of football and that will not happen in one season or even two.
Its not, its what people who want 2 ball playing CBs are after
This thread is just consistently embarrassing. I don't know which side is worse tbh.
I don't follow. You think that any poster who wants two technical CBs wants us to revert to LVG style football?
I think they want to dominate the ball obviously, because they're willing to give up good defending for players who are better passing the ball which invariably consists of a lot of sideways and backwards passing which we did under LVG. With great players like Messi doing the opposite and injecting tempo and taking chances, its great to watch but we dont have those types of all time great players.
Do you think Smalling is told by the coaches to “just get rid of it, if in doubt boot it out”?
Do we think Rashford is told to shoot from ridiculous distances on free kicks or De Gea is told to roll the ball out to marked midfielders? The whole team seems brain dead atm. Smalling has never been great on the ball obviously, but swear he never used to just punt the ball out and would try and find distance on clearances.
Definitely the side which consists of 3 posters with over 500 posts between them in a thread about Chris fecking Smalling.
He’s never had any composure our Chris.
Nope. But he’s the only one they can regularly trust to defend so they take the shite with the smooth.
Seriously, the state of our back 4 since losing G.Nev, Rio, Vidic, Evra... it blows my wee mind.
Mourinho's comments after the Europa League final, to me suggests coaches tell him to get rid because they know asking him to play will lead to trouble. Smalling on the ball is just an invitation for the other team to press.
Quite a simplistic view on football isn't it. You're looking at defending in such finite terms but it's not about individual ability to win a header or which CB is the best at tackling - the best football teams at the moment are about retaining/winning back possession and working as a unit, especially when you play CB. Simply look at the best defences this season (LPool, City, Spurs in that order), they all play a very different style of football but none of them sit deep. Across those three teams there is a real diversity of CBs; VVD, Alderweireld, Stones, Vertonghen, Kompany etc and you can argue that Smalling is better in many of the basic defensive 'skills' like heading, tackling, marking than some of them but it's irrelevant when you play elite level football. These CBs all complement a certain system, individual quality is not the deciding factor - you only have to look at Lovren for proof of that.
You seem to value the old fashioned English CB - an uncompromising technically limited player at the back who was most useful when facing strikers like Duncan Ferguson, Kevin Davies and similarly physical and aerially dominant strikers.
Ironically your reference to Messi is precisely why I'm not in favour of the counter attacking style in the PL now & why Smalling is too limited. Mourinho is a prime example of a manager who would setup his team in a defensive shape and then leave his attacking players to create, without necessarily coaching patterns of attacking play and how he wanted to attack (Hazard gave a good interview on this a few years ago). Unless you have these very rare attacking players who can create chances out of nothing, you end up playing like we do now with very little penetration or ability to play through the lines as a team. The change that needs to happen starts with the GK & CBs.
The problem is our judo champion has regressed (or, from the amount of time hes been with us) hasnt improved on factors to take him to the next level. Unfortunate for him that both Rio and Vidic left at the same time, because if he had come in and been with one of them for a few years it may have helped him. Possibly.
But at the same time, he had years to learn with them (especially as he was partnered with them from time to time). Obviously having better players around him would help mask his deficiencies - its just a shame hes not the leader for us most hoped.
But at the same time, he had years to learn with them (especially as he was partnered with them from time to time). Obviously having better players around him would help mask his deficiencies - its just a shame hes not the leader for us most hoped.
No. I value defending. If thats covered then ball playing is great. If its not, ball playing isnt a substitute. Its a cherry on top.
I also value defending in midfield because that helps the defense a lot. Even the best CBs in the world will struggle at times if the midfield doesnt bother to help them, similar to the Everton game.
Therefore I rate Ander who reduces the pressure on our defense a lot by winning the ball so much before they have to be troubled, and I rate Smalling as our best defender because he's the best at defending.
Of course I'd have lots of ball playing and technical players around them to balance it out and play great football. But I wouldn't replace Smalling with someone who doesnt defend as well as he does. And I wouldnt replace Ander with someone who doesnt work as hard as he does helping the defense. Because our team needs that balance. Take either out and we'll be overwhelmed because they are whats holding us together right now. It used to be De Gea making wonder saves on top of that but he's not in good form so they have become even more important.
If the attacking players and midfielders arent creating enough going forward, its not because of the CBs. Its because the midfielders and attackers arent good enough and need to be improved. Or it can also be the tactics.
Our tactic of not having a right side started with David Moyes and the signing of Mata. We're still doing it today. We have no right side. No wonder its hard to create on the left and through the middle when we arent stretching the opposition's positioning so they arent close to each other. We need an actual right winger on the pitch. Thats far more important than having 2 CBs who are looking to find creative passes from the back. Because the best ball playing CBs are playing 30 yard passes out to the right wing. But we have no right wing for them to play a 30 yard pass towards. So they'll end up doing a Lindelof and just doing basic passing with 1 nice pass into midfield or attack every 3 games.
Yes of course, this isn't to say Smalling is the sole reason for our poor form in front of goal. I guess we see football differently although completely agree on the RW issue and rating of Herrera.
I personally think Smalling would work in this kind of setup (using current team members):
---------Jones - Smalling - Lindelof------
Dalot---- -----------------------------Shaw
------------ Pereira - McT - Fred ---------
------------------ Pogba -------------------
--------- Rashford ---- Martial ------------
The above tactically would suit him although I don't think our wing backs are strong enough and we need another CM, likely a new CF as well. It alleviates all pressure from him on the offensive build up side of things and also allows him greater freedom to step in and chase strikers who drop into space in front of our CBS, which is something he's good at.
With a couple of tweaks and realistic signings (Alderweireld --> Jones, Wan Bissaka --> Dalot & someone like Doucoure to add much needed dynamism to our CM --> Pereira) the above would become a whole lot more potent.
Yeah looks pretty good to me. I think he can play in a 3 like that in the middle like you have him, but I'm fine with him in a 2 as well.
I dont think you had the idea, but I'll address it anyway - its not like I'd pick Smalling if I was picking a world 11 or was given £3 billion to come up with a team to win the league and champions league.
I rate him because he's the best at defending out of what we have. If we can find a bunch of quality players in other positions who are doing well, then of course we can upgrade on him too. And if theres a defender out there just as good as Smalling at defending but better on the ball I'd take him too. But until I see that player in a United shirt, Smalling is important for the forthcoming season imo. Maybe Lindelof eventually becomes that player as he's already improved his defending this season. Maybe the same improvement over the course of next season and hes there.
Anyway, I basically rate Smalling and Ander highly because of their importance to the current team. If we go and change the team completely so we don't need a 2nd DM winning the ball as much, or a very solid defending CB then I accept that they become less important. Its just to me we're not even close to that scenario and I doubt we'll be buying 7 or 8 top quality players to change the team completely. I think it'll take several seasons and gradual adjustment, not just plucking Smalling out for another CB or Ander out for a better ball player. Because what they do currently is important and without them doing it we'll get very little done.
I'm surprised by how often you see fans mentioning Smalling's name when it comes to players that should be moved on, he may not be at the level to be one of our 1st choice defenders if we want to get back to the top but he is still great squad player and seems a model professional.
I am a newbie to this forum and this is my post. My blood boils every time I watch Smalling try to pass. I never played football at any decent level, but I played ping pong and Raquetball at a decent level. In a team game, when I am paired with a good defensive partner I always struggle. The reason being even when there is an opportunity to kill the rally, my defensive partner goes for a safety shot and gets the opponent back into the game. I get the same feeling when watching Smalling play, he always takes an extra touch and gives the opponent a chance to move back into shape. If he is a really strong defender like Van Dijk, it's ok to give a pass, but too often he makes mistakes and a team like Manchester United can't carry players like this who think about survival rather than go for the kill.
Right? It's borderline unhealthy at this point. Policing the fecking Chris Smalling thread should anyone dare criticize their hero.
Don't agree that is whats happening in here. There is a lot of reasons for sticking up for Smalling. One of them being that not many do it. Some people like sticking up for people who just doesn't appeal to everyone. I do think the debate is healthy but only up to a point, and that applies to about every player performance thread in here. One aggressive side and one bitter side, back and fourth with not much in between. I do appreciate the balanced discussions in here but not many people are open minded enough in these threads, which puts a lid on it.Right? It's borderline unhealthy at this point. Policing the fecking Chris Smalling thread should anyone dare criticize their hero.
Man Utd 0:2 Man City
A silent performance thread, how creepy...
Thought he was decent enough - he tried to come through Aguero once in the first half and was turned instantly which left us in a bad situation but otherwise was ok
Thought he was decent enough - he tried to come through Aguero once in the first half and was turned instantly which left us in a bad situation but otherwise was ok
He's not good enough on the ball for us to incorporate any other tactic than counterattack
Did alright, but not great. Overall our defending was alright. Although after the 2-0 goal we dropped a bit and so did my focus too.
I'm fear the Smallingites will swarm me but I just don't think he's good enough as an all round footballer, in a battle with a big striker he's got value and has squad value to me, but as a starter, no, so poor with the ball at his feet whether it's against the press or with room to pass.
Awful - he doesn't play with any class or intelligence
Looking laboured in his movement again since the Barca first leg. Just lost some of his sharpness, effects his confidence in his defending and aggressiveness in one v one situations.
Yeah, as a squad option he is fine.
Shit and outclassed. Pretend footballer who is terrified with the ball at his feet.
10 years and still shit. And some still think he is a good defender. He is the biggest pretender we have.
He played ok. I don't see the fuss
The way he fell over when he tried to tackle Aguero he is such an average player, should be playing for Leicester or Burnley. Cant believe he is still here
he is such an average player, should be playing for Leicester or Burnley. Cant believe he is still hereBasically O'Shea's old role and I'd not have a problem with him, you cannot be so limited on the ball in these type of matches.
I guess Rojo, Bailly and Jones, three jokers who can't even string three decent performances in a row this season (never mind the ever absent Rojo), and who have been stupidly red carded and scored two own goals between them, are not pretenders amirite?
The same thing happened a few times to Alderweireld against Salah when Liverpool beat them 2-1 recently. But no one notices these things when it comes to media darlingsThe way he fell over when he tried to tackle Aguero
Great logic. Hey smalling is better than rojo and jones so that makes him a great defender. No that still makes him an average defender. He should just be a squad player but he is extremely lucky that he is surrounded by even more dump so his fans think he is some kind of worldbeater. That's why I called him a pretender because he pretends to be good when he is not.
Yes, great logic. Im not saying he's a world beater but he's definitely better than his teammates. You're making shit up. How does a player 'pretend' to be good? A player gets picked by a manager and is expected to reward that faith by doing the best they can. How can you tell a player is pretending to be good? That has to be the dumbest thing ive read today
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