B2B Draft QF: cubemine vs Jim Beam

Who will win the match?


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Edgar Allan Pillow

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TEAM CUBEMINE:

I am still copying the tactics of the Arsenal Invincibles season (2003/04), and upgrading some of the players.

TEAM BEAM:

Formation: 4-2-2-2 - based on France's Carre Magique in what was one of most remembered team of all time

Playing style: Attacking, characterized by team's invention, industry, creativity and cohesion

Attacking phase:
the main idea from the 1st round stays the same. It is to put two players with fantastic goalscoring ability and enormous pace to take benefit of Platini through balls and at the same time that love to drift wide allowing space in the middle for Platini to come in. In short, the team is made to give Platini the best possible platform to maximize his qualities: world-class playmaking skills + his goalscoring abilities

As we all know Platini performance for France in Euro 1984 is one of the best individual performances at such a big stage with 9 goals in 5 matches.



This team will take the main principles and what was almost a casual arrogance of that team with added flavor in Blokhin and Rummennige in attack, Giresse replacement in Iniesta as Platini's sidekick, a tireless engine of Tigana and the improved wall behind them.

Iniesta inclusion is already explained in the last draft. A great sidekick for Platini. A player who can take advantage if another team puts too much focus on Platini, almost impossible to dispossess being able to hurt the opponent on his own. Also, it is pretty hard to not take a man who is so cold blooded to play a backheel pass in the middle of the park during dying minutes of the WC final and then win the game few seconds later finishing the move inside Holland's box.


Upgrades

The team from the 1st round is upgraded in Marcel Desailly who takes place for Luis Fernández and Giacinto Facchetti instead of Anatoliy Demyanenko. It is a massive upgrade, but not purely on the defensive side of the team as it first seems.

Marcel Desailly is one of the toughest players you can come against and already excelled in a similar role coordinating Capello's Milan diamond on the highest level. Desailly has an actual ability to dominate in that role and not just by shutting down the other team's midfield, but to keep things thicking with his quick releasing of the ball once he is in possession enabling others to create. He is also a perfect foil for Scirea attacking runs being able to cover for him which is another massive reason for his inclusion and a further boost in terms of team quality and cohesion.

Giacinto Facchetti as one of GOAT left backs in football history steps in. I needed a man who can cover the flank on his own and there are not many (if any) better choices then Facchetti in these terms. Besides being a massive part and a leader of one the greatest defenses in Herrera's Inter his ability to make a rapid transition from defense to attack will make him equally important in attacking and defensive phase of the game. He can influence the game by his crossing or looking Blokhin tendency to attack from the left by cutting in and be a big goalthreat on his own. So, again using his potential to the maximum.

Conclusion

Nobody is perfect, but a team can be. Well, maybe it ain't perfect, but looking at the pieces it is damn close to being one.
More synergy through the team with players being comfortable in their positions and attack that suits our GOAT Platini to the teeth. Overall a much better defensive shield in Scirea, Mcgrath, Facchetti, Gerets and Desailly in front of them.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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What a team Jim is building. Just wow. Only thing I don't like is Desailly takes away the originality of the setup. Fernandez could be the playmaker from deep as well. Rijkaard probably would have made it perfect.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow

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Lovely team by Jim.

A thought would be to swap McGrath and Desailly. Paul was better on the ball and good outlet to recycle possession and has played DM many times in his career. Desailly-Scirea also makes a classic Stopper-Sweeper combo.
 

Jim Beam

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What a team Jim is building. Just wow. Only thing I don't like is Desailly takes away the originality of the setup. Fernandez could be the playmaker from deep as well. Rijkaard probably would have made it perfect.
Lovely team by Jim.

A thought would be to swap McGrath and Desailly. Paul was better on the ball and good outlet to recycle possession and has played DM many times in his career. Desailly-Scirea also makes a classic Stopper-Sweeper combo.
Yeah, I was even thinking about leaving Fernández for a second in this one, putting Desailly on CB and then watched again large parts of that CL final against Barcelona. After that it was point of no return. One of the most dominant DM performances on such a big stage. Was also left a bit surprised how quick he was with releasing the ball to the more creative parts of the team and even switching the play when needed. He was just so comfortable in the role at the time. And... The big reason is that I wanted someone who can cover for Scirea runs forward and he seemed perfect for that. Something I didn't have in the 1st round with Fernández.

Bad quality, but best I could find

And even better one in terms of his passing


Paul is an interesting idea, but he takes away more from the original set-up imo. And also I do rate Desailly higher in this particular role.
 

Jim Beam

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@cubemine interested in a few things, but mainly this one if you have time. What is Matthäus role here? Playing a holding midfielder? Arsenal's Invincibles did have Gilberto Silva and Viera as b2b, so I presume that's the case. At Inter and at his peak he played further forward, practically a 10 with an enormous engine. For Germany his role at times could be described as an all around presence with one moment going deep and picking a pass from a defender and another bombing forward while Klinsmann and Voeller pulled the defence wide to make space when he comes driving up the pitch.

Image from Yugoslavia game in WC1990 where Germany played probably it's best game in the tournament.



And those furious forward runs, his presence in those areas (the reason why Inter used him more advanced), were a huge part of a problem when you have to deal with him.

The point I was making is that he never really played the role he has to play here. Not that he can't do it, but if he has to, I would rather put him beside a holding mid if that's the case. And it seems a bit like a waste of his qualities. Having Platini there in the hole will just force him to pay even more attention to the defensive side of the game.
 

cubemine

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@cubemine interested in a few things, but mainly this one if you have time. What is Matthäus role here? Playing a holding midfielder? Arsenal's Invincibles did have Gilberto Silva and Viera as b2b, so I presume that's the case. At Inter and at his peak he played further forward, practically a 10 with an enormous engine. For Germany his role at times could be described as an all around presence with one moment going deep and picking a pass from a defender and another bombing forward while Klinsmann and Voeller pulled the defence wide to make space when he comes driving up the pitch.

Image from Yugoslavia game in WC1990 where Germany played probably it's best game in the tournament.


And those furious forward runs, his presence in those areas (the reason why Inter used him more advanced), were a huge part of a problem when you have to deal with him.

The point I was making is that he never really played the role he has to play here. Not that he can't do it, but if he has to, I would rather put him beside a holding mid if that's the case. And it seems a bit like a waste of his qualities. Having Platini there in the hole will just force him to pay even more attention to the defensive side of the game.
Of my 2 Cm's, Viera is playing more as a dm, wheras Matthäus is more as a B2B who creates some problems for defenders with passing similar to what Gilderto Silva did in the invincibles squad and the 2002 world cup. My Main aim of picking him was not to play him at his best, just that he would be better then Xabi Alonso and Gilberto Silva in that role. He is meant to play a more defensive role, as both my CM's are.
 

Jim Beam

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@Jim Beam I assumed Vieira was playing more of a DM role or that they were both playing a box-to-box role.
Gilberto Silva always seated deeper while Vieira would often press across to send the opposition wide. So, was just curious to hear his thoughts. Either way, would be a tough to come up top in the midfield battle imo.
 

Physiocrat

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Gilberto Silva always seated deeper while Vieira would often press across to send the opposition wide.
That's certainly true. I remember Vieira's best position and role being discussed a while back in drafts. My view is that he'd be best in a 2 or 3 ahead of a DLP of sorts. Next to a standard DM it lacks some creativity. That said of course it worked well for Arsenal
 
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Jim Beam

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Of my 2 Cm's, Viera is playing more as a dm, wheras Matthäus is more as a B2B who creates some problems for defenders with passing similar to what Gilderto Silva did in the invincibles squad and the 2002 world cup. My Main aim of picking him was not to play him at his best, just that he would be better then Xabi Alonso and Gilberto Silva in that role. He is meant to play a more defensive role, as both my CM's are.
Yeah and using him that way you will not manage to get the best out of him which was my first feeling when I saw the team. He is not the player who will seat deeper and create you problems through his passing. Or to put it better, that's not his biggest strength.
 

Jim Beam

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My view is that he'd be best in a 2 or 3 ahead of a DLP if sorts. Next to a standard DM it lacks some creativity. That said of course it worked well for Arsenal
Agree with pretty much all of that. Although, I do feel that Gilberto Silva is a bit underrated here. It was pretty complimentary pairing, especially when you count in all other parts of that system and how they played.
 

Enigma_87

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Like the look of both teams. Very hard to separate if any.

Cubemine has succeeded in elevating that invincibles side quite well.

Same for Jim Beam. Feels like the remake draft a bit.

I like how cubemine slows down that team beam attack. Matthaus/Vieira is as solid core as you can get and both Cole and Thuram are excellent fit for opposition forwards having the support of industrious wingers.

Can see Cristiano exploiting the space left by Gerets as the carree magique depended a lot on width provided by Amoros and here we should probably expect the same.

@Jim Beam have you thought about moving Iniesta next to Platini and getting a striker ala Fenomeno next to say Blokhin more looking like Brazil’s 82?

Imo with Iniesta a bit
Ore advanced he can weave his way closer to goal and have that big game where he could be decisive. Especially in a 4-4-2 sported by the opposition.
 

Jim Beam

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Can see Cristiano exploiting the space left by Gerets as the carree magique depended a lot on width provided by Amoros and here we should probably expect the same.
Don't even know what version of Cristiano plays here. He excelled on left and right in United, excelled on the left in Madrid with Benzema who acted more like a false 9, pulling the defenders and opening the space for Ronaldo. And in the end worked best in Juventus feeding off Mandzukic last season.
The only pairing which didn't work was a technically good second striker which liked to drop deep in Dybala.
Whichever version of him is out there I can't see him working near his best. Especially as Bergkamp loved to drop deep going right in the area where Desailly operates.
So, I have massive issues here with both Lothar and Ronaldo roles based on how they operated in their careers.

@Jim Beam have you thought about moving Iniesta next to Platini and getting a striker ala Fenomeno next to say Blokhin more looking like Brazil’s 82?
No, not really. Il Fenomeno wouldn't work that well in this system. Iniesta has a role of Giresse here, so he is close to Platini as explained in OP.
 

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He excelled (...) on the left in Madrid with Benzema who acted more like a false 9 (...) The only pairing which didn't work was a technically good second striker which liked to drop deep in Dybala.
I didn't watch Juventus much last season - what would have been the difference in how Benz and Dybala operated?

The closest working arrangement to cubemine's front two I can think of might be Ronaldo's pairing with Nani for Portugal. Although that raises the question JB asked which version of Ronaldo is playing here, and if that would have worked just as well with, say, 2010 Ronaldo.
 

Jim Beam

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I didn't watch Juventus much last season - what would have been the difference in how Benz and Dybala operated?
Dybala likes to drop deeper and act like a second striker feeding or linking with the main attacker being a huge goalthreat on his own. Dybala can also be used as a great false 9 in a somewhat simillar fashion to Benzema imo, so it was both about Allegri tactics and changes in the way Ronaldo now operates. However, Dybala was a shadow of a player who previously worked with much inferior striker in Higuain. Mandzukic on the other side occupied or bullied defenders and Ronaldo then attacked those areas which worked way better for them.

I am not saying it is not possible for him to work in such a set-up, he thrived with various, but deeper operating creative midfielders behind him and even players like Ozil. But, I definitely wouldn't call this optimal either.

And as I said, not even sure what version of Ronaldo is here as it is not explained.