I’m sorry
WWC19 | Final: USA v Netherlands
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
The great truth is they're women and they're training to play competitive football against other women. For those who watch women's football the measure of the quality and level of football, comes when women play women. The entertainment comes from the skill and the competitive element displayed in a physically fair competition.
The average 14 year old boy is already taller and faster than the average woman. They are also generally more muscular and stronger. The reason women's teams sometimes train by playing lads is to prepare to play women.
They play against U16s because they choose to be at a physical disadvantage in the training match.
They're not "poooor little women" - they are athletes preparing to play against their peers. They're not going to play men, just as lightweights don't fight heavyweight boxers, and just as women swimmers don't swim against men.
Which is why your comment is not only irrelevant it comes across as sexist - because it presents a straw man - no one thinks the women can beat the men's teams. If you're aren't interested in watching women's teams play each other, then yes, it's probably best to avoid those matches on TV and those discussions on here.
I've been fairly critical. I've had a go at the passing, the tactical set-up, the tendency to overplay several times. How they try & play too much in the syle of the men & it doesn't suit them. Some of the defending hasn't been great.
Very similar to watching the blokes really.
I was told, perfectly nicely, that I was being a bit harsh a couple of times, but I don't think anyone accused me directly of being 'orribly sexist.
Sounds about right to me.
There's a lot of disparity between the teams in terms of resources and experience. So I think some of the criticism on here and in the media was tempered by knowing the backstories of some teams/players - particularly in the group stage.
It's Jamaica's fight to get there and their joy at scoring, the performance of the Argentine keeper who'd quit football completely for 6 years, those are the kinds of things that I'll remember more than the tactics in those games. It's a bit like when the non-League teams play against a PL team in the cup.
The teams that get through the group stage though - they're fair game for criticism. When it comes right down to it, the Europeans are mostly playing catch-up in terms of coaching and professionalism, and their managers aren't really football's coaching greats - though I'd say that's the same for the men when it comes down to teams like England.
Nothing wrong with criticism or analysis though - Casey Stoney and Alex Scott both did good jobs of raising the problems, even when the BBC commentators and presenters were presenting an over-generous spin. It's football, post-mortems are part of the fun
this is embarrassing.
It's not sexist to criticise certain elements of the women's game (the issues are there for sure) but it is a bit silly to only come in to say 'this football is shit' rather than offering anything constructive.
Obviously the women's game isn't on the same level as men, there's significant physical differences between the sexes, a much larger pool of male players, and far bigger funding for the male game. But the women's game is improving tournament after tournament and personally I really enjoyed this one despite some of the quality issues, it's entertaining and the emotions involved are the same, the players give it their all. I can still enjoy non-league football games even if the quality isn't great, honestly if football has to be PL/CL level quality for you to enjoy it I think you've fallen out of love with the grassroots of the game. The level at the WWC was more than high enough to still be enjoyable, technically they weren't inept and it was still played at a fast pace.
The people who approach it with the opposite attitude and try and act like the women's game is on the same level as the men's/they could compete are almost as annoying though. Sticking your fingers in your ears and just ignoring the facts because it doesn't suit what you want to believe is a poor approach. It's nowhere near that level and never will be (comparisons between men and women's sports are mostly totally unfair) so the ambition should just be to build the women's game up in its own right and improve as much as it is possible.
Obviously the women's game isn't on the same level as men, there's significant physical differences between the sexes, a much larger pool of male players, and far bigger funding for the male game. But the women's game is improving tournament after tournament and personally I really enjoyed this one despite some of the quality issues, it's entertaining and the emotions involved are the same, the players give it their all. I can still enjoy non-league football games even if the quality isn't great, honestly if football has to be PL/CL level quality for you to enjoy it I think you've fallen out of love with the grassroots of the game. The level at the WWC was more than high enough to still be enjoyable, technically they weren't inept and it was still played at a fast pace.
The people who approach it with the opposite attitude and try and act like the women's game is on the same level as the men's/they could compete are almost as annoying though. Sticking your fingers in your ears and just ignoring the facts because it doesn't suit what you want to believe is a poor approach. It's nowhere near that level and never will be (comparisons between men and women's sports are mostly totally unfair) so the ambition should just be to build the women's game up in its own right and improve as much as it is possible.
One of my complaints about the coverage in the UK was the pundits and commentators were too nice, rarely did they say anything bad about anyone. There were times they could have went full souness against pogba on players but they didn't.
They weren't as critical as you usually get, all positive which I thought seemed odd. To show the game properly you've got to give both sides of the story.
Apart from that, it was a pretty fun tourney, about the standard I expected from most teams. Still a lot of work to do but it's going in the right direction.
Still not sure about the all the drama, Rapinoe talking shit, Morgan playing the sexism card about the celebrations, the pay gaps. It's all tired stuff, it's drawing attention away from the actual football.
(Edit: I agree with USA women wanting same as USA men due to jojojo mentioning it earlier in the tournament when I was ignorant to that point, possibly more due to their influence in america, prize money and sponsorship is completely different though)
FIFA obviously can't pay the same prize money for a tournament as small in comparison with the men's world cup.
I know there's always drama in any sport and competition, but it seems the women always have the same ones. Sexism and pay. I understand sexism, but they're using it wrong, she compared Ronaldo cajones celebration, that wasn't a slight to anyway, more him saying "I've got the balls to deliver" hers was a pisstake of another nation (nothing wrong with that imo tbh). She played it our poorly after it, she could have easily said it was just a bit of fun and didn't know it would cause offense (don't know who was offended by it tbh
). Maybe the crowd who watch women's football are just the ones so easily offended?
Was surprised to see Germany so average, wtf has happened there? Men's and women's were both dominant squads, now they're both average at best.
They weren't as critical as you usually get, all positive which I thought seemed odd. To show the game properly you've got to give both sides of the story.
Apart from that, it was a pretty fun tourney, about the standard I expected from most teams. Still a lot of work to do but it's going in the right direction.
Still not sure about the all the drama, Rapinoe talking shit, Morgan playing the sexism card about the celebrations, the pay gaps. It's all tired stuff, it's drawing attention away from the actual football.
(Edit: I agree with USA women wanting same as USA men due to jojojo mentioning it earlier in the tournament when I was ignorant to that point, possibly more due to their influence in america, prize money and sponsorship is completely different though)
FIFA obviously can't pay the same prize money for a tournament as small in comparison with the men's world cup.
I know there's always drama in any sport and competition, but it seems the women always have the same ones. Sexism and pay. I understand sexism, but they're using it wrong, she compared Ronaldo cajones celebration, that wasn't a slight to anyway, more him saying "I've got the balls to deliver" hers was a pisstake of another nation (nothing wrong with that imo tbh). She played it our poorly after it, she could have easily said it was just a bit of fun and didn't know it would cause offense (don't know who was offended by it tbh
). Maybe the crowd who watch women's football are just the ones so easily offended?Was surprised to see Germany so average, wtf has happened there? Men's and women's were both dominant squads, now they're both average at best.
Sweden's women's team got a great welcome on their return home.
Nice article on the team and how much the third place meant to them and their fans:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jul/12/sweden-kosovare-asllani-30000-people-womens-world-cup-england
Nice article on the team and how much the third place meant to them and their fans:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jul/12/sweden-kosovare-asllani-30000-people-womens-world-cup-england
There’s definitely an element of people being afraid to criticise women’s football. The pundits were terrified at time as well as the commentators to mention any glaring errors as individual errors.
Morgan's celebration was not about England. It was a reference to the social media term- "That's the tea". https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=That's the teaOne of my complaints about the coverage in the UK was the pundits and commentators were too nice, rarely did they say anything bad about anyone. There were times they could have went full souness against pogba on players but they didn't.
They weren't as critical as you usually get, all positive which I thought seemed odd. To show the game properly you've got to give both sides of the story.
Apart from that, it was a pretty fun tourney, about the standard I expected from most teams. Still a lot of work to do but it's going in the right direction.
Still not sure about the all the drama, Rapinoe talking shit, Morgan playing the sexism card about the celebrations, the pay gaps. It's all tired stuff, it's drawing attention away from the actual football.
(Edit: I agree with USA women wanting same as USA men due to jojojo mentioning it earlier in the tournament when I was ignorant to that point, possibly more due to their influence in america, prize money and sponsorship is completely different though)
FIFA obviously can't pay the same prize money for a tournament as small in comparison with the men's world cup.
I know there's always drama in any sport and competition, but it seems the women always have the same ones. Sexism and pay. I understand sexism, but they're using it wrong, she compared Ronaldo cajones celebration, that wasn't a slight to anyway, more him saying "I've got the balls to deliver" hers was a pisstake of another nation (nothing wrong with that imo tbh). She played it our poorly after it, she could have easily said it was just a bit of fun and didn't know it would cause offense (don't know who was offended by it tbh
Was surprised to see Germany so average, wtf has happened there? Men's and women's were both dominant squads, now they're both average at best.
Yes, I clocked that a few times when a player took on a speculative shot when they had a team-mate in open space and just needed to feed them in for a much better chance, or when the opposite happened and there was a pass when they should have shot. Funnily enough it often came from the male commentator who was completely overlooking the obvious and then the female co-commentator or pundit at half time/full time would be the first to mention it.
Basically Jonathon Pearce was afraid to describe what was happening a lot of the time.
Yeah I've noticed it almost became patronising at times. An England player would get in a great position, their cross would hit the first defender and instead of saying it's a wasted chance it would be like "oooooh she's so dangerous in that positon" and Sue Smith would be like "yeah she loves to get in these areas that where she's so effective".
It's sexist to treat them with kid gloves. There's plenty to praise and plenty to criticise just like every other large scale sporting event.
I presume you've never overheard a random conversation in the States when it comes to football/soccer.
True.
But then I suspect that reflects the lack of respect for men's football in the States, and a lack of awareness of the physical demands of the game, rather than a serious belief in women's football having such superior technique/tactics that the physical demands can be ignored.
One numptie recently posted on FB about which women's sports are more exciting than men's sports and soccer was his first choice. But he only watches the World Cup is my guess, and is going off 1) recency bias, 2) American winning, and 3) shock value. I'm 99.9% certain he doesn't watch any European matches and probably doesn't get as involved in the men's World Cup because the US is average or not there.
Read an article on New Yorker shitting on Rapinoe for the most trivial things about her celebration. feck off
To be fair, based on my relatively limited exposure to watching the US men's team and the occasional MLS game, I think the US women's team are more exciting as well.
Rapinoe was extraordinary in terms of her own performance and as a leader during the WC. The fact that she also managed to piss off Trump makes her a hero in my book. I will say that the US fans in France seemed to absolutely adore her - I'm basing that on the names on shirts, the volume of the cheers as her name was read out, and the absolute joy from the crowd as Rapinoe came over to take a corner or even a throw-in.
Not sure what particular grudge the New Yorker have got, and I'm sure if Rapinoe runs for president I'll hear some things about her that I don't like, but overall - what a star
I don't see it. I watch the women's World Cup and fail to see the excitement in general play, granted I've witnessed many horrendous men's World Cup matches as well. I'm likely spoiled by watching CL, EPL, Bundesliga, and La Liga matches.
I totally get why women, young people, and even some boys/men enjoy but for me it's a step down in multiple aspects.
Hence why I compared the US women to the US men's team and MLS.
That said, emotion is what lifts live football, what's happening now at the top of the women's game, is that it's getting good enough that some fans of the men's game are also enjoying the women's matches. Generally speaking though, the emotional connection starts from bias - I was only a few minutes into watching my first live United women's match when I automatically reacted to a really nicely hit United goal by jumping to my feet and cheering. Like a lot of United fans, I'm a little cooler on England, and I'm always cooler about games where I'm a neutral - I still enjoyed the tournament though.
And that's what makes it worse, her trying to make that as an excuse. It's bullshit, I didn't see her do it against any other team.
Also, what a stupid saying
Each to their own. First time I saw it, I knew what she meant by it. It is a very common thing on twitter and certain youtube channels now.And that's what makes it worse, her trying to make that as an excuse. It's bullshit, I didn't see her do it against any other team.
Also, what a stupid saying
The average 14 year old boy is 5 ft 4.5 inches (163.8 cm) and weighs 112 pounds (50.8 kg)
https://www.disabled-world.com/calculators-charts/height-weight-teens.php
That’s basically the same height as an average woman, and a good 20 pounds lighter?
The technical ability of these women’s teams is rather underwhelming compared to men’s teams. With that said, there has been huge improvement compared to 2015 (at least from what I remember).
https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/average-height-for-women
The average women in the US is 5,3 and weighs 170 pounds.
That’s a BMI of 30, so the average American woman is obese?
She certainly deserves the accolades as the player of the tournament.Rapinoe was extraordinary in terms of her own performance and as a leader during the WC. The fact that she also managed to piss off Trump makes her a hero in my book. I will say that the US fans in France seemed to absolutely adore her - I'm basing that on the names on shirts, the volume of the cheers as her name was read out, and the absolute joy from the crowd as Rapinoe came over to take a corner or even a throw-in.
Not sure what particular grudge the New Yorker have got, and I'm sure if Rapinoe runs for president I'll hear some things about her that I don't like, but overall - what a star
Makes sense
That's one of the reasons I didn't quote average weight - it's not much of a metric for sport. The point I was making is that when women play U16s they do so because the lads are generally are faster/stronger than them, but not so much bigger than them that they get injured too easily.
In terms of technique, the women's game has changed massively in the last ten years, and it's a dramatically better game now than it was even 5 years ago.
It will keep changing because at the youth level it's changing - with more trained coaches and more girls playing. At the next WWC, we'll be seeing the first set of women players in Europe who went through similar youth training systems to the men.
How big an audience the women's club game can develop, and how big an event the Euros in 2021 (in England) can be, is anyone's guess. I do think it will keep improving though, because the structure (training, professional/semi-pro contracts at least for international players, proper leagues) is improving.
I guess there's probably a general benefit from previous developments in men's football. Tactical, technical, scientific concepts already exist to large degrees, they "just" have to be applied. The alignment of standards will take time, and funding will play a role, but I'd expect women's football to improve relatively fast.
A little bit of techno-magic from the Final - the 360 degree crowd picture. Incredible technology and the resolution is truly disturbing if you're worried about the "facial recognition" software tests
https://www.fifa.com/360fanpicfinal2019
https://www.fifa.com/360fanpicfinal2019
We are barely at the stage in the UK where ordinary women are able to play.
My old club has just formed a team that will play in a London league this for the first time this year. On the male side it runs 8 teams & a Vets XI & has done for a 100 years. The facilities for amateur level are fantastic. They are just getting round to letting women in to use them essentially.
I'm only making the point that grass roots participation for women is at the 'all-new' stage.
I would imagine that the technical standard is fairly awful but criticising it for that would hardly be fair would it? In the circumstances.
I think the top women teams have moved through the being good enough to watch in the technical sense. I was still wondering about this 4-5 years ago. So some criticism of that is valid. Some (a few) of them are better than I ever was, though the speed of execution doesn't have to be so great I don't suppose. And the level of fitness isn't as high, technique breaks down very quickly due to fitness issues. Body shape, awareness, concentration. USA had all the cards here, for me. Their best game persisted deeper into matches much more for me.
But if you don't think this will ever happen for them I don't think you are watching any of the netball - where the ball is moved around at bewildering speed & big tall ladies can jump & catch amazingly well.
My old club has just formed a team that will play in a London league this for the first time this year. On the male side it runs 8 teams & a Vets XI & has done for a 100 years. The facilities for amateur level are fantastic. They are just getting round to letting women in to use them essentially.
I'm only making the point that grass roots participation for women is at the 'all-new' stage.
I would imagine that the technical standard is fairly awful but criticising it for that would hardly be fair would it? In the circumstances.
I think the top women teams have moved through the being good enough to watch in the technical sense. I was still wondering about this 4-5 years ago. So some criticism of that is valid. Some (a few) of them are better than I ever was, though the speed of execution doesn't have to be so great I don't suppose. And the level of fitness isn't as high, technique breaks down very quickly due to fitness issues. Body shape, awareness, concentration. USA had all the cards here, for me. Their best game persisted deeper into matches much more for me.
But if you don't think this will ever happen for them I don't think you are watching any of the netball - where the ball is moved around at bewildering speed & big tall ladies can jump & catch amazingly well.