I’m in a rush currently so i can’t name a bunch of examples but Liverpools midfield isn’t necessarily world beaters but they do a job.
Is the diamond formation the answer after all?
- Thread starter Dolf
- Start date
Because emphasis isn't on their midfield to create. Its to work hard, win the ball back and give it to their creative players, which in the Liverpool side are their full backs and forwards.
Whilst I don't disagree with a diamond formation being effective at times, I don't think you're fixing many of our problems here to be honest.
In no particular order:
- Lukaku is not Man Utd quality as part of an 11 man front line, let alone a one, two or three man strike force. Also, he wants to leave.
- Martial has proven he does not have the character to succeed here. Whilst we haven't seen the best of him due to the lack of cohesion in the team for years on end, I feel it is time to let him go as well. On pitch demeanour is shocking. Not direct or dynamic enough.
- The lack of defensive cover will continue by playing a centre midfield of Pogba and Fred, regardless of how good the incoming DM is.
- I do think we need width and capable wingers. Playing with just full backs against all the teams that sit back against us is not going to work. Nor are the strikers going to run the channels enough to offer the width we need. I think we'll be easily pressed out of a game in that formation.
I will say that this club is in a real state and I don't care that people say you cannot change a team too much in one window. It absolutely needs to be done. As Keane said, there are bluffers here; multiple players that do not have the right commitment, drive, personality, ownership, responsibility to play for this club. Let me ask those of you who think you can't perform deep surgery on a squad without a lack of cohesion the next year: would you rather perform minor surgery and finish 6th, or major surgery and finish 6th whilst having spent that year gelling your next generation squad ????? Think about it.
FIRST 11
SQUAD PLAYERS
Squad by position:
GK
Romero
Grant - (hg)
Henderson - (hg) (cg)
CB
Romagnoli
Skriniar
Smalling (hg)
Lindelof
LB
Shaw (hg)
Borthwick-Jackson (hg) (cg)
RB
Wan Bissaka (hg)
Dalot
Fosu-Mensah (hg) (cg)
DM/CM
Sangare
Bakayoko
McTominay (hg) (cg)
Pereira (hg) (cg)
AM
Pogba (hg) (cg)
Lingard (hg) (cg)
Gomes (u21)
LM/W/F
Saint-Maximin
Chong (u21)
RM/W/F
Sancho (hg)
Pepe
ST
Griezmann
Rashford (hg) (cg)
Greenwood (u21)
NOTES:
- For the most part the purchases are of young players with a future, pretty much the only transfer ball park we can operate in at the moment.
- Our youth products/u21's are highly involved, as they should form the core of Ole's future Utd mentality.
- Could consider a loan move for Bale with absolutely no intention of purchasing afterward. Ball in our court as they want rid.
- Sangare is an imposing deep lying defensive midfield shield who absolutely has forward passing. Has great potential.
- Bakayoko on loan has actually looked good this year and has the defensive frame and dynamism to free Pogba. Chelsea would surely sell.
- If not the above, potentially a cheap move for Luiz Gustavo for ball winning midfielder to replace Matic. More agile and also has passing range.
- Saint Maximin is as natural a winger as you will find. Absolutely explosive. Think prime Giggs, Overmars. Has more gears than Martial.
- Boufal is a quality dribbler on the wing. Hasn't had the best of it at Southampton, but had a good season in Spain. I'd look at him.
- I know Griezmann is 28 and would cost a bomb, but he would bring goals, technique, a change from Lukaku shite up front and would keep Pogba here. If not Griezmann then Jovic looks of similar potential and has two good feet and seems strong.
- Sancho, if he'll consider us could be our future. His right foot can join Pepe's left foot for right wing options. These plus Saint-Maximin can share wing forward duties.
- Other centre backs we could look at: Elvedi, Koulibaly, Tah, Joachim Andersen, Kevin Vogt, Upamecano, Konate, even Willy Boly!
Transfer outs:
De Gea - 75 mil
Rojo - 10 mil
Jones - 10 mil
Bailly - 15 mil
Darmian - 5 mil
Valencia - free
Young - 2.5 mil
Matic - 10 mil
Herrera - free
Fred - 20 mil
Mata - free
Martial - 40 mil
Sanchez - free
Lukaku - 50 mil
---------------
237.5 million
---------------
Transfer in:
Romagnoli - 45 mil
Skriniar - 55 mil
Wan Bissaka - 40 mil
Sangare - 35 mil
Bakayoko - 35 mil
Saint-Maximin - 30 mil (contract up 2020)
Sancho - 100 mil
Pepe - 65 mil
Griezmann - 80 mil
---------------
485.0 million
---------------
NET SPEND: 247.5 million
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That’s sort of my point though. I think that’s a style we’d all like to see again which falls in line with our attacking ethos. Pogba for as talented as he is isn’t the best fit for that.
Is it your point, though? United have always had or tried to have creativity in midfield. Pogba is no different to that. Difference is, nowadays we haven't got the quality to go with the level of Pogba.
It’s not about the creativity, it’s about effort. That’s my point. Go watch any game from Fergie’s time. Doesn’t matter who was in the midfield whether he was top quality or okay. The effort was consistently there. Even pretty boy Ronaldo would harass the shit out of players to get the ball back. I get that we don’t have top top talent, but it has been shown you don’t need top top talent to have a functioning midfield. That’s why I referenced Liverpool. I would always want someone who’d fight for every inch, regardless of skill level.
That's where the balance comes into it, though. Pogba's lack of workrate is way too overstated at this club because we've not been that successful. It was never a big deal at Juventus, nor was it a problem for him in the world cup or when he plays for France because the teams had the right balance.
Struggle to see the difference between a diamond or a 4-3-3 in terms of Pogba’s position. He’d still have four behind him, 3 in midfield, and 3 players in front.
Correct but their style of football is not the same style that brought Busby and Fergie lots of success. And it’s the style we can get back to far more quickly, and the style that Ole supposedly will try to bring us to. And lastly, it’s the style that almost all of us seem to agree on. To do what made France and Juventus successful would require another manager plus many top talent players, which is just us starting from scratch again. And for what, to make sure Pogba has the team he needs? It almost seems like that’s what some posters are arguing for.
Diamond is narrower and have a lot of dependency on fullbacks. 4-3-3 tends to utilize more width.
I understand that, but surely Pogba’s role doesn’t drastically change? More onus on the full-backs and maybe the #10 or a striker to pull wide at times, perhaps.
Point being - I don’t think it would have a massive effect on Pogba. We just need him to step up and show his ability more consistently.
I love the guy but he can be infuriating at times, mainly cos we have such high standards for him.
I thought you were talking about the formations themselves and not Pogba’s role in it.
The original post says “...in terms of Pogba’s position” tbf.
Don't like the diamond formation personally.
I know it works well on Fifa, because play is so direct, but in real life, you need your wingers to really put a shift in back and forth.
We can't rely on being too narrow.
My big problem these days is, the 'better' sides play a high line and squeeze the opposition.
It means the team plays as a unit, Defenders are closer to midfield, midfield to attack etc.
It means the full backs can advance while still holding shape.
because we play a lot more stretched, and deep, if / when our wingbacks go forward, they're so far from the CBs the shape is completely lost
I know it works well on Fifa, because play is so direct, but in real life, you need your wingers to really put a shift in back and forth.
We can't rely on being too narrow.
My big problem these days is, the 'better' sides play a high line and squeeze the opposition.
It means the team plays as a unit, Defenders are closer to midfield, midfield to attack etc.
It means the full backs can advance while still holding shape.
because we play a lot more stretched, and deep, if / when our wingbacks go forward, they're so far from the CBs the shape is completely lost
I was with you up until you said you had faith in Lukaku, yes he is premier league proven. But his numbers just don't justify his appalling ability on the ball. He can't be used as a central striker for any team that wants to play flowing football. His first touch is an absolute joke, and when he receives the ball he's simply incapable of releasing it quickly, instead he looks down lumbers over it and takes about 3 extra touches before passing it backwards.
Style? We're talking about work off the ball which was never been a big talking point until he came here. Nothing to do with style of play. As you said, the minimum requirement of any footballer, regardless od style, is to run.
Haven't we been over this enough? All these narrow formations need world class full backs to properly work. We don't even have average ones. So, no.
My bad man
I think just Bruno, Toby and Meunier (110 Million all together) could solve lot of problems, anything else is a bonus. Its really gettable too so hope Woody can see this and complete the deals rather trying to get Bale in .
What I’m saying with style is that Fergie’s United played a different style than Juventus did when Pogba was there. For France, it was probably the top class of players he had around him but they were not like Fergie’s United either.
All good, sorry if that came across as arsey!
I swear a thread like this pops up every season. Our problems lie beyond formation.
Would 352 be a better suited formation to create a smoother rebuild, we have no good wingers at the club, we have 6 attacking players that are all better off centrally in Lingard, Mata, Sanchez, Martial, Rashford and Lukaku, surely with all these options playing in their preferred central positions that we would see a better performances and see a good partnership form?
we have no great options for a right back as Young is our best choice defensively but is a poor outlet on the right wing when we are attacking, Dalot is suspect defensively but looks good going forward, so having Dalot as a right wing back would be better fit with out being too much of a risk defensively because of the extra central defender in a back 3, Shaw would be fine as a left wing back, even Young might be half decent back up cover as a left wing back because he is a always performed better as a player on the left wing than right and has a good in swinging cross on him.
In central defence we have the likes of Darmian and Rojo that have shown in their careers that they can perform well in a back 3 and usually if you dont have the greatest choice of defenders to choose from 3 at the back can help cover up them short comings.
It can allow for an attacking midfielder role for Pogba with either Herrera, Matic, Mctominay and Fred forming a partnership sitting behind him.
That's of course without the addition of 4 or 5 new signings added to it.
we have no great options for a right back as Young is our best choice defensively but is a poor outlet on the right wing when we are attacking, Dalot is suspect defensively but looks good going forward, so having Dalot as a right wing back would be better fit with out being too much of a risk defensively because of the extra central defender in a back 3, Shaw would be fine as a left wing back, even Young might be half decent back up cover as a left wing back because he is a always performed better as a player on the left wing than right and has a good in swinging cross on him.
In central defence we have the likes of Darmian and Rojo that have shown in their careers that they can perform well in a back 3 and usually if you dont have the greatest choice of defenders to choose from 3 at the back can help cover up them short comings.
It can allow for an attacking midfielder role for Pogba with either Herrera, Matic, Mctominay and Fred forming a partnership sitting behind him.
That's of course without the addition of 4 or 5 new signings added to it.
It should be the solution. Too many managers around these days who try to fit players to a formation instead of playing a formation that fits the players.
Your three forwards would all look better playing two up front, matic and Pogba would enjoy it more, dalot looks up for a more wingbacky role as it is and your defenders would probably enjoy having a narrower midfield bank as well.
Stock up in midfield and it solves a lot of problems.
Your three forwards would all look better playing two up front, matic and Pogba would enjoy it more, dalot looks up for a more wingbacky role as it is and your defenders would probably enjoy having a narrower midfield bank as well.
Stock up in midfield and it solves a lot of problems.
Quick question. What formation have we actually played well with under Ole. I don't just mean a formation we used to win. I mean a formation we used to dominate
I would say we go 433 with our focal striker plays in a false 9 role. Ole has used this plenty of times this season. And with the right players, this system can be used week in week out.
DDG
AWB CB CB Shaw
CM DM CM
Attacker False 9 Rashford/Martial
Needs 2 ball playing CB, DM as a third CB, attacker on the right side with great dribbling ability & good end product. False 9 that offers creativity, top class movement, passing, decision making & willing to close down defenders.
DDG
AWB CB CB Shaw
CM DM CM
Attacker False 9 Rashford/Martial
Needs 2 ball playing CB, DM as a third CB, attacker on the right side with great dribbling ability & good end product. False 9 that offers creativity, top class movement, passing, decision making & willing to close down defenders.
When Ole first came in, we went on that terrific run where, not only did we win games, we looked very fluid as a team.
The system on paper was as follows:
Martial Rashford Lingard
Pogba Matic Herrera
Shaw Jones Lindelof Young
De Gea
Pogba Matic Herrera
Shaw Jones Lindelof Young
De Gea
However, although it was a 433 on paper, Lingard and Pogba occupied the spaces in between the lines, with Herrera and Matic staying deep.
Due to Lingard cutting in, Young would occupy the width on the right and Martial doing the same on the left, with Shaw playing a support role.
In possession, we looked a bit like:
Rashford
Martial Pogba Lingard Young
Matic Herrera
Shaw Jones Lindelof
The diamond requires our full-backs to offer a serious attacking threat. That's not realistic with 33 year old Ashley Young on the right, while Shaw does well one game then can't be bothered to attack the next match.
Despite some alarming performances, I still think Dalot would offer a lot more in attack if he started regularly at right-back.
In recent matches we have seen one of the forwards drift wide then put in crosses, when we had one or two players in the penalty area, neither of whom are much of a threat in the air. Pogba's header against the cross-bar was very much the exception, a move that had some logic to it.
Despite some alarming performances, I still think Dalot would offer a lot more in attack if he started regularly at right-back.
In recent matches we have seen one of the forwards drift wide then put in crosses, when we had one or two players in the penalty area, neither of whom are much of a threat in the air. Pogba's header against the cross-bar was very much the exception, a move that had some logic to it.
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Diamond would be a perfect fit for my muppet side, but the problem is we don't currently have the players or are too young. I'll post in anyways because of the template.
----Greenwood--Sancho-----
------------Felix--------------
----Pogba---Garner---Gomes--
LB---Lindelof---Tuanzebe--Dalot
You have a bit more congestion in the middle making it easier for our midfield to dominate. The front 3 is capable of creating for others, scoring, and all highly technical. The midfield has bite with Garner, but also press resistant and capable of driving forward and creating for others.
The most important part is that it's a very highly technical side 2nd only to City or possibly more technical than City's side. I want a focus on technique, and a side that can easily create for others.
Completely unrealistic signings and development, but it's my ideal muppet side. Originally preferred a 433, but Martial's application not making up for his one dimensional play makes me want to look the other way.
----Greenwood--Sancho-----
------------Felix--------------
----Pogba---Garner---Gomes--
LB---Lindelof---Tuanzebe--Dalot
You have a bit more congestion in the middle making it easier for our midfield to dominate. The front 3 is capable of creating for others, scoring, and all highly technical. The midfield has bite with Garner, but also press resistant and capable of driving forward and creating for others.
The most important part is that it's a very highly technical side 2nd only to City or possibly more technical than City's side. I want a focus on technique, and a side that can easily create for others.
Completely unrealistic signings and development, but it's my ideal muppet side. Originally preferred a 433, but Martial's application not making up for his one dimensional play makes me want to look the other way.
IMO we are going to sign Maguire and one of Fernandes/Dybala for the No.10 position. But if we manage to sign all 3 as some people believe. Then, it's clear that 442 (diamond) formation would get the best of our players.
We could even play Fernandes as CAM and Dybala as second striker next to Rashford/Martial.
We could even play Fernandes as CAM and Dybala as second striker next to Rashford/Martial.
We've played 4-2-3-1 in every pre-season game. It would be really poor preparation if that wasn't going to be our main formation.
4-1-3-2 to 4-2-3-1 with Pogba playing pivot between attack and defense would be my best guess.
In that case, we just need Fernandes or Dybala, not both. It would be better to sign one of them and a Right Winger.
You cannot play a diamond and then built a team around Pogba who plays on the left. I do not know if Pogba can play on the top of the diamond but in a diamond the defensive midfield player needs to be able to pass well too and control the tempo of the game. This is not what I say but what Cruijff always used to say.
I think that will be the case, BF would only come in if Paul goes. Whether it’s correct or not I’m not certain but I doubt we will sign a right winger as it gives opportunity to play players out there to keep them happy (Rashford, Lingard, Greenwood, Mata and Dalot to an extent) all will get minutes in the position this year I imagine.