Is our Midfield that Bad?

interesting seeing the viewpoints

the last time we had a top midfield was probably 2008

we had Carrick, Scholes, Hargreaves, Fletcher, Anderson, Giggs, Park

we had a combination of skill, great passing, creativity, intelligence, superb work rate, toughness, tackling, experience, presence and able to do specialist roles (Park on Pirlo eg)

compare that to

Pogba, McTominay, Matic, Fred, Lingard?, Garner

it doesn't read well at all

I guess people will need to see the bloody game and see how the team performs to stop being negative... this is getting ridiculous. We have an identity for the first time in 6years and we are betting on it.

Irwin99 said:

Giggs thinks we're short there too, which we obviously are.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11667/11782185/giggs-united-need-more-midfielders

Unless virtually every player steps up I think this could be a big problem.

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I think we need a couple more midfielders. If Paul Pogba goes we talk about culture change, but obviously you need quality. You might not like it but come Sunday if Paul Pogba isn't in that midfield or the week after, and we've got the midfielders that we've got at our club, then we're short. That's the problem.

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Matic is snail slow but that could be really compounded by a CB partnership of Maguire and Lindelof both of whom are not blessed with great pace either. I worry how we'll fair against teams with pacy forwards - the fullbacks are quick and good enough to snuff out most wing attacks but the ball over the top or teams driving through the centre could cause us problems - the first half dozen games will provide an indication I guess..

I think a decision was taken to try and sort the defence this window and look at MF next summer. Pogba has probably been promised his move if it's still on by then and that cash would bring in a couple of decent replacements. This season will be used to look at players like Fred, McT and Pereira and maybe some of the youngsters to see who will step up and therefore what we actually need if Pogba goes. It's not great for this season potentially but long term is probably the sensible strategy.

On paper, there is no reason to believe Matic will improve than last season as he is older.
Pogba so far shown he will be always be blowing hot and cold.There is no reason to believe Perreira, McTominay and Garner is going to step up for this team unless you are their mom and dad. Fred have so far proven nothing. This is the reality.

Perreira, Tominay and Garner should be given chances, but no reason to play them game in game out for sake of learning because we dreamt of them becoming Scholes, Keane, and Butt of future.

Our midfield i would say ranked 6th in the league.

Success of entire season largely placed upon Fred, McT and Pereira having ‘break out’ seasons.

If they don’t, yeah our midfield is the worst it’s been since the Kleberson Djemba years.

I don’t have high hopes

Matic is finished, Fred is all over the place, Periera is not good enough, Garner is still too young and Mctominay is currently squad player at best which leaves to Pogba whose WC but can't possibly carry the midfield by himself. In such circumstances you would rely on a 3 men midfield to compensate for the lack of quality. However that added man would mean one less men upfront. We don't have that quality upfront to compensate for that.

sammsky1 said:

Success of entire season largely placed upon Fred, McT and Pereira having ‘break out’ seasons.

Id they don’t, yeah our midfield is the worst it’s been since the Kleberson Djemba years.

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That team had Giggs on the left, a young Ronaldo on the Right, Scholes and an ageing Keane in central midfield. We also had RVN and Saha upfront. Just saying

devilish said:

That team had Giggs on the left, a young Ronaldo on the Right, Scholes and an ageing Keane in central midfield. Just saying

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And which came 3rd which was a crisis! Those were the days!

I agree with your above post, we are truly screwed. And as you say, even if mf can get the ball into final third, we don’t have the consistent quality to convert.

Can see quite a few goalless game from us

sammsky1 said:

Success of entire season largely placed upon Fred, McT and Pereira having ‘break out’ seasons.

If they don’t, yeah our midfield is the worst it’s been since the Kleberson Djemba years.

I don’t have high hopes

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not only them. Without lukaku, we are now expecting Martial and Rashford (maybe even Greenwood) to have personal record breaking years.

Not only is the midfield going to have to achieve a level they've never achieved, the guys in front of them have the same problem.

WPMUFC said:

not only them. Without lukaku, we are now expecting Martial and Rashford (maybe even Greenwood) to have personal record breaking years.

Not only is the midfield going to have to achieve a level they've never achieved, the guys in front of them have the same problem.

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And the defence needs to concede 25 less goals . (albeit bolstered with 2 new players but unproven at this level and will take time to gel as a unit.)

So basically entire team has to do what it has never done before, manager included, for any semblance of success this year.

We’re screwed before we even start.

sammsky1 said:

And which came 3rd which was a crisis! Those were the days!

I agree with your above post, we are truly screwed. And as you say, even if mf can get the ball into final third, we don’t have the consistent quality to convert.

Can see quite a few goalless game from us

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The issue here is not just midfield. I mean, Sir Alex left a midfield who was hardly WC as well. However he made sure he had a WC striker (RVP) and two productive wingers who could whip a cross and allow RVP to score. Same with the Djemba Djemba squad. We had Ronaldo on the right, Scholes in midfield, Giggs on the left and two strikers who would have eaten Martial and Rashford for breakfast without even spitting their bones out. So strictly speaking we could have survived without a top quality CM (I don't like it as I think you should have quality across the board) but only if other areas can compensate to it. We don't have that.

I think Ole's plan was just that ie add a midfielder and a no 10 (Longstaff and Eriksen/Dybala) to compensate to our lack of bite and lack of quality in our flanks.

WPMUFC said:

not only them. Without lukaku, we are now expecting Martial and Rashford (maybe even Greenwood) to have personal record breaking years.

Not only is the midfield going to have to achieve a level they've never achieved, the guys in front of them have the same problem.

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Lukaku creates nothing on his own so he would have struggled in this team. He would have ended up isolated upfront while the other players are struggling to create anything from midfield. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have used the money to strengthen the side. This squad is screaming for quality. It really lacks in that department.

devilish said:

The issue here is not just midfield. I mean, Sir Alex left a midfield who was hardly WC as well. However he made sure he had a WC striker (RVP) and two productive wingers who could whip a cross and allow RVP to score. Same with the Djemba Djemba squad. We had Ronaldo on the right, Scholes in midfield, Giggs on the left and two strikers who would have eaten Martial and Rashford for breakfast without even spitting their bones out. So strictly speaking we could have survived without a top quality CM (I don't like it as I think you should have quality across the board) but only if other areas can compensate to it. We don't have that.

I think Ole's plan was just that ie add a midfielder and a no 10 (Longstaff and Eriksen/Dybala) to compensate to our lack of bite and lack of quality in our flanks.

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How do you think we’ll do this season?

devilish said:

Lukaku creates nothing on his own so he would have struggled in this team. He would have ended up isolated upfront while the other players are struggling to create anything from midfield. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have used the money to strengthen the side. This squad is screaming for quality. It really lacks in that department.

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my point about lukaku is not that he's gone. It's that when you take away his goals, you have Rashford's best league tally sitting on 10 and Martial's bets tally is 11. So if they are the go to strikers this season, you need one of them to basically double their output in the league.

So when you need personal best seasons out of the midfield, as discussed above, we cannot lose sight that the midfield will also need a personal best out of the strikers as well. It's all well and good for the midfield to create the chances but if martial and rashford cannot perform as personal best levels, it's all moot.

sammsky1 said:

Success of entire season largely placed upon Fred, McT and Pereira having ‘break out’ seasons.

If they don’t, yeah our midfield is the worst it’s been since the Kleberson Djemba years.

I don’t have high hopes

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That was a bad midfield. But we still had some really good players around them.

Our midfieds are not creative enough.... we need more good player for a LONG season. When someone got injured, the team will be imbalanced. The new guys mentioned can be good but inexperienced. If, say, the team fails to win in the first five games....there goes the confidence of the whole team...

Also one question... who is the leader of the team now? Someone who the squads listen to. Does that guy play well consistently? Can that guy turn the team in crucial moments? I haven't seen that guy yet.

sammsky1 said:

How do you think we’ll do this season?

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It's difficult to say mainly because Ole has 2 get away from jail cards.

a- the Europa league which is very achievable if one puts his mind to it
b- Chelsea's transfer suspension which makes it easier to get 4 place

However if we're taking things that aren't out of our control out the equation then my answer is badly. You see, you don't need a great manager to lead a top side. The players will make you win trophies. However with a weak side, one need to micromanage things carefully, like some delicate machine. That's why I think that Sir Alex last season was probably the season he showcased his brilliance to us all.

Now Ole is a rookie, with a team with more holes in it then Sir Alex has ever handled and in a league which is getting more competitive by the hour. On the EPL side we are really relying not on our brilliance but on our opponents messing up more then we do.

WPMUFC said:

my point about lukaku is not that he's gone. It's that when you take away his goals, you have Rashford's best league tally sitting on 10 and Martial's bets tally is 11. So if they are the go to strikers this season, you need one of them to basically double their output in the league.

So when you need personal best seasons out of the midfield, as discussed above, we cannot lose sight that the midfield will also need a personal best out of the strikers as well. It's all well and good for the midfield to create the chances but if martial and rashford cannot perform as personal best levels, it's all moot.

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The problem with Lukaku is that he's no RVP, RVN or even Ibra. While he's a decent forward he simply lack the quality to simply drag us to victory with his brilliance or superb finishing skills. Under such circumstances it only made sense to sacrifice him for a forward who can drop deep and help the midfield or at least provide other options (blistering pace to be exploited on quick counters). However a truly ambitious club would have invested Lukaku's money in filling the enormous gaps in midfield/RW

I think Matic will have a good season

Pogba got all the power.
If he get's injured we're screwed. If he decides not to turn up we're also screwed.

It’d have been nice to have got a Herrera replacement but c’est la vie. Maybe the coaching staff think McTominay is going to really pick up and Fred’s going to a lot better now that he’s used to the pace and style of the domestic game, as well as playing under the OGS style.

Fred: Not someone you want to pass to on your half.
Matic: Legs are gone.
McTominay: Zero-sum player. Will do the job, and should take the defensive position over Matic. Needs to improve his passing, his close control and range.
Pereira: Best technical and passing ability besides PP. Does not find his position on the pitch at times, thus running between... Should be coachable.
PP: Should not play as one of the two deep. Either in a free role in e trio or as a CAM.
Gomes and Garner are too young to be relied upon, but will most likely be needed to do their job during the season.

If Pereira suddenly finds his position on the pitch and can play as the controlling midfielder and McT can perform Matic role, then we might have a midfield not being a huge issue. Matic can play some game, Fred should not be played in a defensive capacity.

devilish said:

That team had Giggs on the left, a young Ronaldo on the Right, Scholes and an ageing Keane in central midfield. We also had RVN and Saha upfront. Just saying

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All I remember from that period was Alan Smith being converted into a central midfielder for about six months. Think it was the season he broke his ankle at Liverpool.

Fergie had countless masterstrokes deploying players in different positions to where they started their careers but that wasn't one of them.

Lay said:

I think Matic will have a good season

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Based on what?

I see a fundamental problem with asking Pogba to be one of the two deeper midfielders. Its not that he cannot do it but he isn't Scholes who would scarcely lose the ball, Pogba as a playmaker tries a lot of risky stuff and as a result he loses the ball more than once a game in his own half. Its a mismanagement of his talent to ask him to take less risks and not to venture forward when he is at his best attacking crosses in the opposition half and getting in interchanges with the other attackers. He is not suited for a 4-2-3-1 formation unless he plays the #10 role. It worked with France because 1) it was for a tournament format and not a league 2) he could afford to be less adventurous there considering the rest of the attacking talent in that team.

It feels disingenuous for Ole to claim he is building around Pogba and then not replace a player like Herrera or an ageing Matic, who are fundamental to a midfield set up with Pogba involved.

Gasolin said:

I guess people will need to see the bloody game and see how the team performs to stop being negative... this is getting ridiculous. We have an identity for the first time in 6years and we are betting on it.

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Good old United way!