Yea 30 is necessary for DM/B2B
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I'd probably split the complete central midfielders based on prioritisation between on and off the ball. So basically what was their biggest strength. On that basis would put Modric and Falcao into the #8s.
I think that's a fair way to do it
Okay, so there's going to be 3 threads for midfielders.
1. B2B and Defensive midfielders
2. Midfield playmakers
3. №10s
I think that we should do a preliminary list for each category and discuss every borderline case beforehand, because the CB lists ended up a mess. I'll post my suggestions soon.
1. B2B and Defensive midfielders
2. Midfield playmakers
3. №10s
I think that we should do a preliminary list for each category and discuss every borderline case beforehand, because the CB lists ended up a mess. I'll post my suggestions soon.
B2B & Defensive midfielders:
Matthäus
Rijkaard
Desailly
Voronin
Robson
Keane
Vieira
Breitner*
Neeskens
Redondo*
Tardelli
Gerrard
Tigana
Varela
Bremner
Davids
Souness
Zito
Stielike*
Ballack
Lampard*
Lerby
Bonhof
Goncalves
Mascherano
Deschamps
Makelele
Edwards
Schweinsteiger
Pirri
Rossi
Szymaniak
Haan
Essien
Mackay*
Netto*
Ardiles
Simeone
Fernandez
Cambiasso
Effenberg*
Seedorf*
L. Enrique
Mendieta
Midfield Playmakers:
Bozsik
Paulo Roberto Falcão*
Cerezo*
Pirlo
Xavi
Iniesta*
Scholes
X. Alonso
Gerson
Ocwirk*
Blanchflower
Guardiola*
Busquets*
Toure*
Overath*
L. Suarez*
Didi
Masopust
Coluna
Modric
Schuster
Hoddle
Kroos
Pogba
De Bruyne
Veron
Fabregas
Boban
№10s
TBD: Di Stefano, Cruyff, Gullit
Maradona
Zico
Platini
Pelé
Laudrup
Netzer
Rivera
Socrates
Giresse
Deyna
Riquelme
Liedholm*
Bochini
Rivellino
Zidane
Charlton
Kopa
S. Mazzola*
R. Costa
Ademir de Guia
Sneijder
Ozil
Deco
Gascoigne*
Scifo
Valderrama
Savicevic
Ronaldinho*
Rivaldo*
Cubillas
Totti
Sivori
Francescoli
Hagi
Kaka
Dalglish
Bergkamp*
Cantona*
Rocha
Möller
Zola
Litmanen
Players with a star next to them are debatable in my opinion (you can comment on the rest of them as well, of course). I think we also should create a list for forwards that will include the likes of Kalle, Boniek etc. — the likes of Ronaldinho, Rivaldo etc. can be moved to that category. Please comment if you don't agree with my categorisation.
Matthäus
Rijkaard
Desailly
Voronin
Robson
Keane
Vieira
Breitner*
Neeskens
Redondo*
Tardelli
Gerrard
Tigana
Varela
Bremner
Davids
Souness
Zito
Stielike*
Ballack
Lampard*
Lerby
Bonhof
Goncalves
Mascherano
Deschamps
Makelele
Edwards
Schweinsteiger
Pirri
Rossi
Szymaniak
Haan
Essien
Mackay*
Netto*
Ardiles
Simeone
Fernandez
Cambiasso
Effenberg*
Seedorf*
L. Enrique
Mendieta
Midfield Playmakers:
Bozsik
Paulo Roberto Falcão*
Cerezo*
Pirlo
Xavi
Iniesta*
Scholes
X. Alonso
Gerson
Ocwirk*
Blanchflower
Guardiola*
Busquets*
Toure*
Overath*
L. Suarez*
Didi
Masopust
Coluna
Modric
Schuster
Hoddle
Kroos
Pogba
De Bruyne
Veron
Fabregas
Boban
№10s
TBD: Di Stefano, Cruyff, Gullit
Maradona
Zico
Platini
Pelé
Laudrup
Netzer
Rivera
Socrates
Giresse
Deyna
Riquelme
Liedholm*
Bochini
Rivellino
Zidane
Charlton
Kopa
S. Mazzola*
R. Costa
Ademir de Guia
Sneijder
Ozil
Deco
Gascoigne*
Scifo
Valderrama
Savicevic
Ronaldinho*
Rivaldo*
Cubillas
Totti
Sivori
Francescoli
Hagi
Kaka
Dalglish
Bergkamp*
Cantona*
Rocha
Möller
Zola
Litmanen
Players with a star next to them are debatable in my opinion (you can comment on the rest of them as well, of course). I think we also should create a list for forwards that will include the likes of Kalle, Boniek etc. — the likes of Ronaldinho, Rivaldo etc. can be moved to that category. Please comment if you don't agree with my categorisation.
@Synco
The rest of your categorisations were for -
Trad Wingers
Wide forwards/ second strikers
Playmaking Forwards
Strikers
What does everyone else think of those? For the present discussion the Playmaking forward category is probably the most important. I think it's a good category as it covers creative second striker types who were never genuine 10s such as Baggio.
The rest of your categorisations were for -
Trad Wingers
Wide forwards/ second strikers
Playmaking Forwards
Strikers
What does everyone else think of those? For the present discussion the Playmaking forward category is probably the most important. I think it's a good category as it covers creative second striker types who were never genuine 10s such as Baggio.
To be fair I'd rather combine second strikers and playmaking forwards and put the likes of Baggio, Bergkamp and Cantona there.
B2B & Defensive midfielders:
Breitner* - agreed
Redondo* - should be in creative midfielders due his style and passing ability.
Stielike* - fine for me there, he was all action.
Lampard* - best category we can have for him as he wasn't very creative.
Mackay* - from what I have seen looks fine
Effenberg* - difficult one. He was a very good passer from deep but also a midfield enforcer. I think though if Breitner is in this category so should Effenberg.
Seedorf* - a bit more technical than Effenberg, would slide into creative CMs.
Midfield Playmakers:
Paulo Roberto Falcão* - I think that's fair given his overall style and technique.
Cerezo* - tempted to put him in defensive category. He seems more of a mobile Carrick rather than a playmaker proper.
Iniesta* - correct. Never really played far enough forward to be a 10 nor was a central focal point playmaker.
Ocwirk* - don't know enough about him
Guardiola* - agreed
Busquets* - agreed.
Toure* - was his passing that good? My inclincation would be the same category as Lampard for him.
Overath* - agreed.
L. Suarez* - agreed.
№10s
TBD: Di Stefano, Cruyff, Gullit - playmaking forwards.
Pelé - playmaking forward.
Netzer - he played really quite deep on occasions, there was a reason why he and Overath never played well together. I would be tempted to put him as a creative midfielder.
Liedholm* - for Sweden he was an inside forward but generally not as far forward as Gren was. I would have him as a creative midfielder as 4 players would be in front of him on average,
Charlton - he was never really a 10. More a true 8. I'd be tempted to have him as a creative midfielder. The same goes for the three below too.
Sneijder
Deco
Gascoigne*
Playmaking forwards-
Ronaldinho* - playmaking forward
Rivaldo* - playmaking forward/ second striker
Dalglish - playmkaing forward
Bergkamp* - playmaking forward
Cantona* - playmaking forward
Zola - playmaking forward
Breitner* - agreed
Redondo* - should be in creative midfielders due his style and passing ability.
Stielike* - fine for me there, he was all action.
Lampard* - best category we can have for him as he wasn't very creative.
Mackay* - from what I have seen looks fine
Effenberg* - difficult one. He was a very good passer from deep but also a midfield enforcer. I think though if Breitner is in this category so should Effenberg.
Seedorf* - a bit more technical than Effenberg, would slide into creative CMs.
Midfield Playmakers:
Paulo Roberto Falcão* - I think that's fair given his overall style and technique.
Cerezo* - tempted to put him in defensive category. He seems more of a mobile Carrick rather than a playmaker proper.
Iniesta* - correct. Never really played far enough forward to be a 10 nor was a central focal point playmaker.
Ocwirk* - don't know enough about him
Guardiola* - agreed
Busquets* - agreed.
Toure* - was his passing that good? My inclincation would be the same category as Lampard for him.
Overath* - agreed.
L. Suarez* - agreed.
№10s
TBD: Di Stefano, Cruyff, Gullit - playmaking forwards.
Pelé - playmaking forward.
Netzer - he played really quite deep on occasions, there was a reason why he and Overath never played well together. I would be tempted to put him as a creative midfielder.
Liedholm* - for Sweden he was an inside forward but generally not as far forward as Gren was. I would have him as a creative midfielder as 4 players would be in front of him on average,
Charlton - he was never really a 10. More a true 8. I'd be tempted to have him as a creative midfielder. The same goes for the three below too.
Sneijder
Deco
Gascoigne*
Playmaking forwards-
Ronaldinho* - playmaking forward
Rivaldo* - playmaking forward/ second striker
Dalglish - playmkaing forward
Bergkamp* - playmaking forward
Cantona* - playmaking forward
Zola - playmaking forward
Synco's argument was this with respect to the merging of wide forwards and second strikers -
"I've increasingly warmed up to putting wide forwards and secondary strikers into one category: so all of Eusebio, C. Ronaldo, Robben, Bale, Blokhin, T. Müller, etc. I think their basic function is similar, no matter if they primarily attack from the flanks or central areas. No coincidence that many players of that kind (and most if not all mentioned above) could fill out both roles on elite level."
Tbf, I've made so many arguments back and forth, sometimes opposing my own arguments.
I'm fine with both solutions, and based on discussions/polls so far, I expect @harms' suggestion to be the more popular one.
Edit: Although, if the merger should lead to Cristiano featuring in both wide forwards (earlier version) & second strikers (later version), I'd be against it.
Harms' list looks solid. We need to bottom out the 10/9.5 stuff though to try and draw a line in the sand between the classic 10 and the mob of second strikers and creative forwards.
I'd put Deco and Gazza from 10 to 8 though. Deco played as a clear part of a midfield three at Barcelona in the same way that Iniesta did for example. At Porto he was more classic 10 though so it depends what we take as peak. Gazza I've detailed before, but typically played in 4-4-2 set-ups as a central midfielder rather than as a second striker. To be fair unlikely either are going to be breaking many top 20s.
I'd put Deco and Gazza from 10 to 8 though. Deco played as a clear part of a midfield three at Barcelona in the same way that Iniesta did for example. At Porto he was more classic 10 though so it depends what we take as peak. Gazza I've detailed before, but typically played in 4-4-2 set-ups as a central midfielder rather than as a second striker. To be fair unlikely either are going to be breaking many top 20s.
Centre Forwards
The complete ones and F9s who are versatile to play in multiple tactics incl as Supporting Forward
Pele
R9
Cruyff
Messi
Kalle
Di Stefano
Law
etc
Supporting Forwards
Second Strikers/Wing Forwards - Not ideal as wide player in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 or to lead the line alone.
Puskas
Eusebio
Boniek
Gullit
Cantona
Right Wingers -
Except wing forwards (would fit as wide player in a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1)
Figo
Robben
Beckham
Left Wingers -
Except wing forwards (would fit as wide player in a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1)
Best
Garrincha
Giggs
The complete ones and F9s who are versatile to play in multiple tactics incl as Supporting Forward
Pele
R9
Cruyff
Messi
Kalle
Di Stefano
Law
etc
Supporting Forwards
Second Strikers/Wing Forwards - Not ideal as wide player in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 or to lead the line alone.
Puskas
Eusebio
Boniek
Gullit
Cantona
Right Wingers -
Except wing forwards (would fit as wide player in a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1)
Figo
Robben
Beckham
Left Wingers -
Except wing forwards (would fit as wide player in a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1)
Best
Garrincha
Giggs
Redondo is a DM for me. A controlling one, but still DM. Would put Cerezo and Busquets also there.
Luis Enrique could play everywhere, not sure where to put him.
Luis Enrique could play everywhere, not sure where to put him.
Personally I think that his passing was outstanding (better than Lampard's), but he was not a controlling midfielder, so I'm a bit torn about him.
edit:
This is from one game
There aren't any great compilations, but this one is quite impressive, considering that it's from a single season.
@harms Thanks for the vid. Yaya's passing was a lot better than I remember it - some were exceptional. Based though on the season compilation they maybe aren't consistent enough to put him into creative midfielders especially if Breitner and Effenburg are DM/B2B category
B2B & Defensive midfielders:
Matthäus
Rijkaard
Desailly
Voronin
Robson
Keane
Vieira
Breitner - maybe @Balu can help if is around here but the more i watched him the less i see him as b2b player
Neeskens
Redondo - playmaker
Tardelli
Gerrard
Tigana
Varela
Bremner
Davids
Souness
Zito
Stielike*
Ballack
Lampard*
Lerby
Bonhof
Goncalves
Mascherano
Deschamps
Makelele
Edwards
Schweinsteiger
Pirri
Rossi
Szymaniak
Haan
Essien
Mackay*
Netto*
Ardiles
Simeone
Fernandez
Cambiasso
Effenberg
Seedorf
L. Enrique
Mendieta
Carrick
Midfield Playmakers:
Bozsik
Paulo Roberto Falcão
Cerezo - DM
Pirlo
Xavi
Iniesta*
Scholes
X. Alonso
Gerson
Ocwirk*
Blanchflower
Guardiola*
Busquets - DM
Toure - b2b
Overath - leaning towards b2b
L. Suarez
Didi
Masopust
Coluna - b2b
Modric
Schuster - b2b
Hoddle - n10
Kroos
Pogba
De Bruyne
Veron - n10 maybe?
Fabregas
Boban
№10s
TBD: Di Stefano, Cruyff, Gullit - CF
Maradona
Zico
Platini
Pelé - CF
Laudrup
Netzer
Rivera
Socrates
Giresse
Deyna
Riquelme
Liedholm
Bochini
Rivellino
Zidane
Charlton
Kopa
S. Mazzola
R. Costa
Ademir de Guia
Sneijder
Ozil
Deco - b2b
Gascoigne - b2b
Scifo
Valderrama
Savicevic - right winger
Ronaldinho - left winger
Rivaldo - SS
Cubillas
Totti - CF
Sivori - SS
Francescoli*
Hagi
Kaka
Dalglish - SS
Bergkamp - SS
Cantona - SS
Rocha
Möller
Zola - SS
Litmanen
Players with a star next to them are debatable in my opinion (you can comment on the rest of them as well, of course). I think we also should create a list for forwards that will include the likes of Kalle, Boniek etc. — the likes of Ronaldinho, Rivaldo etc. can be moved to that category. Please comment if you don't agree with my categorisation.
Matthäus
Rijkaard
Desailly
Voronin
Robson
Keane
Vieira
Breitner - maybe @Balu can help if is around here but the more i watched him the less i see him as b2b player
Neeskens
Redondo - playmaker
Tardelli
Gerrard
Tigana
Varela
Bremner
Davids
Souness
Zito
Stielike*
Ballack
Lampard*
Lerby
Bonhof
Goncalves
Mascherano
Deschamps
Makelele
Edwards
Schweinsteiger
Pirri
Rossi
Szymaniak
Haan
Essien
Mackay*
Netto*
Ardiles
Simeone
Fernandez
Cambiasso
Effenberg
Seedorf
L. Enrique
Mendieta
Carrick
Midfield Playmakers:
Bozsik
Paulo Roberto Falcão
Cerezo - DM
Pirlo
Xavi
Iniesta*
Scholes
X. Alonso
Gerson
Ocwirk*
Blanchflower
Guardiola*
Busquets - DM
Toure - b2b
Overath - leaning towards b2b
L. Suarez
Didi
Masopust
Coluna - b2b
Modric
Schuster - b2b
Hoddle - n10
Kroos
Pogba
De Bruyne
Veron - n10 maybe?
Fabregas
Boban
№10s
TBD: Di Stefano, Cruyff, Gullit - CF
Maradona
Zico
Platini
Pelé - CF
Laudrup
Netzer
Rivera
Socrates
Giresse
Deyna
Riquelme
Liedholm
Bochini
Rivellino
Zidane
Charlton
Kopa
S. Mazzola
R. Costa
Ademir de Guia
Sneijder
Ozil
Deco - b2b
Gascoigne - b2b
Scifo
Valderrama
Savicevic - right winger
Ronaldinho - left winger
Rivaldo - SS
Cubillas
Totti - CF
Sivori - SS
Francescoli*
Hagi
Kaka
Dalglish - SS
Bergkamp - SS
Cantona - SS
Rocha
Möller
Zola - SS
Litmanen
Players with a star next to them are debatable in my opinion (you can comment on the rest of them as well, of course). I think we also should create a list for forwards that will include the likes of Kalle, Boniek etc. — the likes of Ronaldinho, Rivaldo etc. can be moved to that category. Please comment if you don't agree with my categorisation.
@Gio and @Fortitude need to explain the Cabrini ranking. Only surprising thing I found in the list.
I mean @Indnyc listed Cabrini twice (8th and 10th) and the sum of both those ranks is almost equal to Gio and Fortitude's rank of Cabrini
I mean @Indnyc listed Cabrini twice (8th and 10th) and the sum of both those ranks is almost equal to Gio and Fortitude's rank of Cabrini
Ah crap.. @harms could I edit my post to remove the duplicate?
Yeah, I haven’t collected the results yet.
The thread is locked so I can’t edit my post
What do you find surprising about it?
Interestingly, I think gio and myself mirror on most things all-time related and have done for as long as I can remember (bless
), so it doesn't really surprise me we'd have similar lists.Rated significantly below most others obviously is what I meant.What do you find surprising about it?
Interestingly, I think gio and myself mirror on most things all-time related and have done for as long as I can remember (bless
Just post it in a reply to me, I’ll change it.
- Paolo Maldini
- Giacinto Facchetti
- Andreas Brehme
- Ruud Krol
- Nílton Santos
- Roberto Carlos
- Bixente Lizarazu
- Marcelo
- Antonio Cabrini
- Ashley Cole
- Paul Breitner
- Maxime Bossis
- Silvio Marzolini
- Karl-Heinz Schnellinger
- Leo Júnior
- Dennis Irwin
- Patrice Evra
- Hans Peter Briegel
- José Antonio Camacho
- Anatoliy Demyanenko
Would you rather put him into the list with the midfield playmakers? Not sure about that. I guess he transformed into a more "static" playmaker in his last few years, certainly was a b2b/dm when he played with Netzer at Real from what I've seen and read. It's less obvious for his second spell at Bayern. But there are plenty of players on those lists who fit into both categories depending on what part of their career you look at and what the team needed them to do.
We need to somehow settle the issue with roles and set up the thread, but this is way too complicated for this polling system. In the end I think that I'll have to make the decision myself unless someone comes up with a better option — but I'll consider all the suggestions. For now I'm just going to reply to a few opinions in question.
I'd also like to hear @oneniltothearsenal's opinion on Cerezo, I suspect that he'll put him as a DM.
I'm tempted to go with @Gio on those two.
@Edgar Allan Pillow I was tempted to move Netto to playmakers, but to be honest those old half-backs in W-M were first and foremost defensive players — even though Netto was known for his passing and playmaking as well.
The thing that we have to decide all together is where should we put defensive midfielders with strong playmaking tendencies like Busquets, Redondo and maybe Cerezo and Guardiola (not Pirlo/late Scholes though). There's no ideal decision here, so we'll just have to vote one way or the other.
I'd also like to hear @oneniltothearsenal's opinion on Cerezo, I suspect that he'll put him as a DM.
I'm definitely not going to argue with you on Gascoigne and can see why you'd move him out of the №10 list, but surely he's going to be a playmaker? Combative, energetic, but playmaker — his main strengths were his dribbling, passing and shooting? I see that you've put many playmakers like Schuster, Overath and Deco to b2b, so maybe we have to agree on a definition. Playmakers can be great defensively and move around the pitch.
No way. This one is certainly either a number 10 in Porto, or a midfield playmaker in Barcelona.
I'm tempted to go with @Gio on those two.
Definitely a central midfielder at his peak.
Perhaps, but he played a lot in a midfield two in 4-4-2 to the best of my recollection.
Fair enough, although I don't rate his defensive game as highly.
Definitely a playmaker first, although quite combative in both of his versions.
Fair enough, I'll move him to b2b/DMs.
Energetic playmaker.
@Edgar Allan Pillow I was tempted to move Netto to playmakers, but to be honest those old half-backs in W-M were first and foremost defensive players — even though Netto was known for his passing and playmaking as well.
This one is for later but I think that his peak was at Red Star, where he was a clear number 10.
Dont have a strong opinion on Cerezo tbh so fine either way, from the little i saw he looked more like a DM that is great on the ball then someone that was running games.harms said:
I can see the point for other three but Gazza wasnt a playmaker, he didnt run the game nor was his passing top notch even though he was capable of it. He was a complete midfielder and when you take into consideration his insane workrate and engine then b2b category should be a no brainer.harms said:
Hard one to pick a category when we lack complete midfielders one but yeah he can go with playmakers.harms said:
Was it? I watched a fair bit of his games at Lazio when he was a clear n10 and that was the time he was considered among best midfielders/players in the world.harms said:
He played there and was shit, think he played more on the wing because it was easier to put him into the side as he was a lazy fecker. Style wise think he is a clear n10.harms said:
he would go into attacking b2b category and someone said they are in there as well.harms said:
Someone that plays b2b i just cant call a playmaker even though he has all the qualities for it.harms said:
fine with thatharms said:
I was thinking of Zvezda version....he played mostly from the right though both him and Prosinecki had a free role but if i had to categorize it then its a definitely a winger.harms said:
I'd keep Netto as defensive midfielder. There's not enough footage to be sure of course, but in the Euro final he plays a very conservative, holding and shielding performance.
Could be both. I always thought he was closer to Masopust than Davids. I'm fine.
I'll leave it to you — unless many others will disagree.
Again, that's a discussion for later — but honestly, I'm okay with either.
Pretty much this. I'd list him as a DM first though obviously in draft matches he can play CM and AM as well.
I am not an expert on the matter (like onenil for example), but I find it off to classify Cerezo as 'great on the ball'.
From what I have seen, he was good on the ball and 'great on the ball for a DM'.
I wouldn't classify him as great on the ball like I'd do with Overath for example from the other thread.
Then and there the discussion of putting him anywhere but the DM list in an all time context ends for me (personal opinion ofcourse)
From what I have seen, he was good on the ball and 'great on the ball for a DM'.
I wouldn't classify him as great on the ball like I'd do with Overath for example from the other thread.
Then and there the discussion of putting him anywhere but the DM list in an all time context ends for me (personal opinion ofcourse)
The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to put all of the Redondo/Cerezo/Busquets lot to DM.
Guardiola to playmakers as he famously doesn't know how to defend
Guardiola to playmakers as he famously doesn't know how to defend
Compiling the top 20, I found that there was a clear top 6 and from 7th onwards there was very little in it between the different left-backs. Cabrini I've always seen as hugely influential in that great Juve side and he has the match ratings and trophies to back it up. But I suppose I rate others higher from a pure defensive point of view (eg Cole, Camacho), going forward (Marcelo, Gordillo), or as all-rounders (Carlos, Demyanenko, Bossis, Lizarazu). Very marginal though and I feel the likes of Demyanenko and Gordillo were unlucky because they didn't play in as well-remembered sides as some of the players that swoop into the top of the rankings. Can only go on what I've seen and some of those other players impressed more based on the footage.
Fair enough.
On Camacho, he seems to be going through an invisible patch in drafts considering how highly he was rated in the 80's.
Almost picked him in this draft (backup in case Nilton got picked).
Aye, had him earmarked as well for that next-to-Passarella gig.
Maybe need to watch some more of Cabrini though.