Kashmir

Wednesday at Stoke

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What's the whole picture then? On the face of it that report is pretty devastating.

It found that Muslim Indians were the most impoverished urban minority in India and the second most impoverished overall - on a par with the Scheduled Castes and Tribes. Proportionally, four times more Muslims were found to be living in poverty than the general Hindu population and were far more likely to be intensely impoverished at that. With regards to the government and its institutions it found that they were grossly underrepresented within all state departments and that this under-representation only increased the higher the rank - by far the least representation of any Indian subgroup. Overall the report found that in each and every area of life Muslims were significantly more deprived than their Hindu counterparts.

This doesn't strike me as a set of findings that one would unearth in a country where Muslim and Hindu were treated as equals.
Is there a country out there where muslims are in the minority and yet on par with the majority population in terms of education, wealth and employment?

Does this trend not repeat itself in European and North American countries as well?
 

berbatrick

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What's the whole picture then? On the face of it that report is pretty devastating.

It found that Muslim Indians were the most impoverished urban minority in India and the second most impoverished overall - on a par with the Scheduled Castes and Tribes. Proportionally, four times more Muslims were found to be living in poverty than the general Hindu population and were far more likely to be intensely impoverished at that. With regards to the government and its institutions it found that they were grossly underrepresented within all state departments and that this under-representation only increased the higher the rank - by far the least representation of any Indian subgroup. Overall the report found that in each and every area of life Muslims were significantly more deprived than their Hindu counterparts.

This doesn't strike me as a set of findings that one would unearth in a country where Muslim and Hindu were treated as equals.
Part of the reason, definitely not all, but part, is that many of the richer Muslims were landlords in UP/Bihar and were the ones who left/fled during partition (after voting for it in the first place)
 
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Ekkie Thump

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Is there a country out there where muslims are in the minority and yet on par with the majority population in terms of education, wealth and employment?

Does this trend not repeat itself in European and North American countries as well?
Certainly in the UK it does, Muslims suffer a great deal of persecution here. One difference is that Muslims have been a large part of India for centuries, not a small minority for 60 years.
 

Inigo Montoya

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Certainly in the UK it does, Muslims suffer a great deal of persecution here. One difference is that Muslims have been a large part of India for centuries, not a small minority for 60 years.
Hope you mean India and not the UK
 

Ekkie Thump

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Part of the reason, definitely not all, but part, is that many of the richer Muslims were landlords in UP/Bihar and were the ones who left/fled during partition.
Yeah that could form part of the reason, but although the results varied from state to state the overall finding seemed to be that Muslims appeared to suffer regardless of what area of India they came from.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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Certainly in the UK it does, Muslims suffer a great deal of persecution here. One difference is that Muslims have been a large part of India for centuries, not a small minority for 60 years.
India itself didn't exist until 70 years ago, barring a few exceptions everyone must have started from the bottom there after colonial rule.
 

Ekkie Thump

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India itself didn't exist until 70 years ago, barring a few exceptions everyone must have started from the bottom there after colonial rule.
Lets not be pedantic, Muslims have formed a significant part of the population of the Indian subcontinent for over 500 years.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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Lets not be pedantic, Muslims have formed a significant part of the population of the Indian subcontinent for over 500 years.
It's not pedantic when the country as it exists now is demographically an entirely different entity from what the colonial ruled subcontinent used to be and the partition was mainly drawn on religious lines.
 

2cents

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India itself didn't exist until 70 years ago, barring a few exceptions everyone must have started from the bottom there after colonial rule.
There’s a common perception or argument that the Hindus more readily adapted to the realities of British rule, which gave them an advantage in areas such as education and government employment and subsequently positioned them at the forefront of the independence movement. I don’t know if this line of thought carries much weight today, but it was certainly the impression of the British authorities at the time.
 

Inigo Montoya

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I mean both.
Muslims aren't persecuted in the Uk. That's utter crap.
Our Chancellor is a Muslim as is the Mayor of London,there are thousands of Muslims well represented in the arts,politics,sport,media and many other fields etc.

Stop talking crap
 

Ekkie Thump

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It's not pedantic when the country as it exists now is demographically an entirely different entity from what the colonial ruled subcontinent used to be and the partition was mainly drawn on religious lines.
Estimates at the time of partition suggest that about 7.5 million Muslims transferred into Pakistan, while around 34 million stayed behind - forming around 10% of the population. At that time the Muslim population of the UK was 0.1%.

It's probably my fault but I have to confess that I'm failing to see your point.
 

Ekkie Thump

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Muslims aren't persecuted in the Uk. That's utter crap.
Our Chancellor is a Muslim as is the Mayor of London,there are thousands of Muslims well represented in the arts,politics,sport,media and many other fields etc.

Stop talking crap
I said that to my mate in hospital after he got beaten up for being a 'paki' - he told me to feck off.
 

MJJ

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Stop being pedantic mate. So you can never say anything about any country going by that logic? I can only surmise from the general feeling I get from living in the country. It’s easy to generalise a country’s feelings. Everyone else is just seeing the irony that Pakistani posters are feeling outraged at other countries while their country has done stuff that’s far worse.

you yourself said to someone above that ‘because the victims are Muslims, you wouldn’t care’. Maybe that’s the reaction you guys have when people from the other religions suffer in Pakistan but generally in India no one has any less sympathies just because the person who is suffering is of a different religion. That’s a very bigoted thought for you to have different levels of sympathies just because the person is of a different religion but I suppose that’s what happens when you aren’t living in a secular country

It’s very unlikely for that last thing to happen. You overestimate RSS and underestimate your own country.
Unless those posters have supported human rights violations in the past, the nationality has nothing to do with it.

Don't give me that bs, you seem more concern with the nationality of people pointing out that human rights violations are occurring than the actual violations while a significant part of your country is celebrating that they can now marry fair kashmiri girls. If you guys cared so much, modi government would not be doing what it is doing and there would be protests right now.

Anyways, agree to disagree. You can keep checking the nationality of everyone who posts about kashmir while believing india cares so much about them.
 

MJJ

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According to Dawn, around 40,000 Pakistanis - military and civilian - lost their lives in the war in Waziristan and adjacent areas between 2001 and 2011. This does not include the thousands of foreign militants who have also likely died there. It doesn’t state who exactly is responsible for those deaths. So not quite the same death toll as Kashmir, but a shorter period of time. Also, Bangladesh was a part of Pakistan until 1971, and I believe the death toll in that war surpasses anything else seen in South Asia since partition.
Not a fair comparison as that was war against taliban which you pretty much know. Not against a local population who want their freedom.
 

Relevated

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Why do Indians believe that azad kashmir is so oppressed? Is that what the media narrative is over there?

I am from azad kashmir and can tell you that is definitely not the case
 

Relevated

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Never said that. Most Indian's acknowledge Army's role in the mess. I've yet to see a single post from one of the Pakistani's about their Govt/ISI's role in the mess. Go ahead, deny and claim you're holier than thou.

Is Azad Kashmir so much better? Do you have free elections with open voice of people? Azad Kashmiris are granted full rights and freedom of speech?
Yes, there is actually such freedom in azad kashmir. What does the common Indian think is the case there? Genuinely curious
 

Patrick08

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I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here by posting that article as it almost same as ThePrint article I posted.
At least it’s Reuters so that is a proper source you’re quoting.
Baby steps alright. But we’re getting there.
Read the name.
 

berbatrick

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I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here by posting that article as it almost same as ThePrint article I posted.
At least it’s Reuters so that is a proper source you’re quoting.
Baby steps alright. But we’re getting there.
the article he linked (otherwise almost exactly the same words) calls him ahmad.
however, looking at the respective twitter accounts, amin writes that he is a journalist for greater kashmir (which is how both articles describe him) while ahmad does not have any bio. another reason i think amin is the correct one is because he hasn't tweeted since august 3, while ahmad has been tweeting throught the blackout, which makes me doubt he is in indian kashmir at all.
the final alternative is that it's the same person with 2 accounts, who somehow kept one going till 12th.
 

Ekkie Thump

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Give it up man - it's a different dude and that report's happened to get his middle name wrong. He's described as 28, comes from Tral and works for The Greater Kashmir newspaper in the very report you cited ffs. The bloke you posted was born in 1997 and lives in Baramula. Meanwhile the bloke I posted is in fact 28, works for the right paper, lives in Tral and has a very similar sounding name - a name which has been printed correctly in many other reports on the subject:

https://scroll.in/latest/934059/jam...ned-in-tral-family-says-no-idea-about-charges
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...indias-decision-to-end-kashmir-special-status
https://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry...-irfan-amin-malik_in_5d55834ae4b0eb875f206e94
https://thewire.in/media/kashmir-journalist-irfan-amin-malik-detained
 

milemuncher777

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the article he linked (otherwise almost exactly the same words) calls him ahmad.
however, looking at the respective twitter accounts, amin writes that he is a journalist for greater kashmir (which is how both articles describe him) while ahmad does not have any bio. another reason i think amin is the correct one is because he hasn't tweeted since august 3, while ahmad has been tweeting throught the blackout, which makes me doubt he is in indian kashmir at all.
the final alternative is that it's the same person with 2 accounts, who somehow kept one going till 12th.
Yeah name is Ahmed in reuters but the age and location doesn’t match with the twitter account quoted
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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This doesn't strike me as a set of findings that one would unearth in a country where Muslim and Hindu were treated as equals.
Certainly in the UK it does, Muslims suffer a great deal of persecution here. One difference is that Muslims have been a large part of India for centuries, not a small minority for 60 years.
One, India is more like a collection of states rather than a single country. Unlike US, there is a big cultural divide amongst different states to even draw a macro picture very difficult. What happens in Gujarat would be completely opposite of what happens in Tamil Nadu.

Two the communal divides in India run far deeper than Hindu vs Muslim. Even though caste system is officially dying, it still is silently prevalent across all levels. You have multiple castes, communities, sects, classes that coexist with various forms of discrimination all through. I'm of the opinion that discrimination happens to a chunk of Indian population and not restricted to Muslims. Hindus and Christians suffer equally badly from inept policies and corrupt government. I'm also of the opinion that suppression of minorities (in general) is somewhat similar to India's peers.

You should also factor in the high population and that Muslims only make up less than 15% of overall population. If you are looking at % in senior positions you should factor that non Muslims outnumber Muslims by a billion more. Bollywood has a lot of Muslims, there has been lot of Muslims in senior positions of government (President of India, Supreme Court etc etc). I'd say Muslims in India have better life than Hindus in Pakistan.

To conclude, does discrimination happen? Yes. Does Muslim targeted discrimination happen? Still Yes (varies by state). Is there any generic all Muslim hated and discrimination in India? Definitely No.
 

Patrick08

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Give it up man - it's a different dude and that report's happened to get his middle name wrong. He's described as 28, comes from Tral and works for The Greater Kashmir newspaper in the very report you cited ffs. The bloke you posted was born in 1997 and lives in Baramula. Meanwhile the bloke I posted is in fact 28, works for the right paper, lives in Tral and has a very similar sounding name - a name which has been printed correctly in many other reports on the subject:

https://scroll.in/latest/934059/jam...ned-in-tral-family-says-no-idea-about-charges
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...indias-decision-to-end-kashmir-special-status
https://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry...-irfan-amin-malik_in_5d55834ae4b0eb875f206e94
https://thewire.in/media/kashmir-journalist-irfan-amin-malik-detained
Both could have been detained for similarities. The one i have put out tweets about is openly calling for jihad.
 

MJJ

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Give it up man - it's a different dude and that report's happened to get his middle name wrong. He's described as 28, comes from Tral and works for The Greater Kashmir newspaper in the very report you cited ffs. The bloke you posted was born in 1997 and lives in Baramula. Meanwhile the bloke I posted is in fact 28, works for the right paper, lives in Tral and has a very similar sounding name - a name which has been printed correctly in many other reports on the subject:

https://scroll.in/latest/934059/jam...ned-in-tral-family-says-no-idea-about-charges
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...indias-decision-to-end-kashmir-special-status
https://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry...-irfan-amin-malik_in_5d55834ae4b0eb875f206e94
https://thewire.in/media/kashmir-journalist-irfan-amin-malik-detained
This is the point @Patrick08 will disappear until tomorrow when he will post another opinion which gives us an insight in the brains of bakhts.
 

MJJ

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India celebrates the anniversary of its independence from Britain on Thursday, but the pomp and splendour cannot mask the country’s abuses in Kashmir and the shredding of its secular principles.


Exactly 72 years ago, when the Union Jack was lowered from Delhi’s Red Fort and replaced by the Indian saffron-white-and-green tricolor, the world hailed the birth of a new nation that soon became a postcolonial beacon of secular democracy for countries emerging from the tyranny of colonialism.

This year, India’s Independence Day ceremonies stuck to a template that has been followed for decades. Prime Minister Narendra Modi hoisted the flag at the Red Fort just as the country’s first premier, Jawaharlal Nehru, did on August 15, 1947. It was followed by the prime minister’s speech, delivered from the ramparts of the magnificent Mughal era fort, the singing of the national anthem, and a 21-cannon salute commemorating the country’s freedom fighters.

But while the de jure trappings of a secular democracy remain, India has reneged on many of its foundational precepts. In the disputed region of Kashmir for instance, New Delhi has effectively followed the methods and discourse of a coloniser, notes Nitasha Kaul, a novelist and associate professor in politics and international relations at the University of Westminster. “There’s a word for supposed development that comes with assumed moral superiority and economic rationality, in the shadow of the gun, with no input from the people affected, and based on the fantasies of a foreign power. That India claims to be a post-colonial democracy does not change this fact -- no colonial venture in contemporary times has dared name itself as such,” wrote Kaul in a Foreign Policy column.

While the country was birthed as a secular nation transcending religious identity in contrast with the foundationally Muslim Pakistan, India today is a state as Hindu as Pakistan is Muslim. “The vision of Hindu nationalists is the yin or the yang to the Pakistani counterpart, which is unfortunate because India did hold up another model for democracy that was secular and a place for peoples of all other faiths,” said Mira Kamdar, author of the book, India in the 21st Century, in an interview with FRANCE 24.


Last week, Modi’s government crossed a Rubicon with the unilateral scrapping of Article 370, which guaranteed autonomy to Indian-administered Kashmir under the country’s constitution. The gutting of Article 370 effectively whitewashed the murky circumstances under which the territory was acceded to the Dominion of India, and the subsequent UN resolutions calling for a plebiscite in Kashmir that India has ignored.

The ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) had long threatened the move and made it a key promise of their 2019 re-election campaign. When it was finally abrogated on August 5 in a lightning strike that caught everyone by surprise, Modi’s supporters called it a “final solution” without a hint of irony.

The implementation, though, was far more sweeping than the BJP’s campaign promise. In one fell swoop, India’s only Muslim-majority state lost its statehood and was downgraded to a union territory administered by the central government in New Delhi.

In his Independence Day speech on Thursday, Modi defended his government’s controversial decisions on the erstwhile state of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. While about 4 million Kashmiris stayed indoors for the 11th day of an unprecedented lockdown, under extreme mobility restrictions and without access to the Internet, mobile or landline phone services, Modi said the changes were aimed at economic development.

"The old arrangement in Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh encouraged corruption, nepotism but there was injustice when it came to rights of women, children, Dalits, tribal communities," said Modi, referring to the low caste Dalit community, whose leaders have blasted the government’s expropriation of their exploitation to justify the abrogation of Article 370.


Jammu and Kashmir territories are at the heart of tensions between India and PakistanFRANCE 24 | The Jammu and Kashmir territories at the heart of tensions between India and Pakistan.
While Modi waxed eloquent on the well-being and economic prosperity this would bring to Kashmir and the rest of India, Kashmiris were placed under an unprecedented lockdown with no access to the Internet, mobile phones or even landlines. Movement was restricted, a curfew was imposed and tens of thousands of additional troops were deployed in one of the world’s most militarised zones.

Meanwhile economists have been left to unpack the myth that the scrapping of Article 370 will economically benefit Kashmir, which has better demographic indicators than many other Indian states.

Kashmiris long denied their right to self-determination were not hailing their latest “salvation”, but the optics of repression failed to dent the Modi administration’s triumphalist discourse.

“India over the years has steadily eroded Kashmir’s autonomous status. This is the final step in the process,” explained Sumit Ganguly, distinguished professor of political science at Indiana University, Bloomington. “This has been done with the vision of India as a homogenous Hindu state with little or no use for secularism.

The latest backlash by supporters of Hindutva, or Hindu nationalism, against critics of the decision is also consistent with the systematic stifling of dissent, experts say. “India as a postcolonial secular democracy has been destroyed because part of what has happened is the way in which the constitution has been treated in a cavalier manner and how people who are objecting to this are being represented as anti-national or as Islamists or pro-Pakistan or pro-jihadist or whatever,” said Kaul in an interview with FRANCE 24.

Acquittal despite a lynching on video

While India was founded on Nehru’s vision of a secularism designed to hold the subcontinent’s disparate communities together, a strand of Hindu nationalism has long envisaged a majoritarian state that would dispense with multiculturalism.

“That strand was always present,” said Kamdar, referring to Hindu nationalism. “These were the people who assassinated Mahatma Gandhi, who opposed Nehru’s vision and that of [the father of the Indian constitution, B.R.] Ambedkar and others. But now that second vision, which was once an undercurrent, has risen and is in the process of transforming a secular democracy into that other vision, which is a Hindu nationalist state where minorities live at the sufferance of the Hindu majority.”

On the eve of Independence Day, a court in the western Indian state of Rajasthan on Wednesday acquitted six men of the killing of a Muslim dairy farmer. Pehlu Khan’s horrific 2017 lynching by a mob of cow vigilantes was caught on video, making national headlines.

Cows are considered sacred by Hindus and cow slaughters are banned in a number of Indian states, including Rajasthan. Since the BJP came to power in 2014, the phenomenon of vigilante squads lynching Muslim farmers -- who are accused of slaughtering cows without any proof -- has increased.

Following the verdict, #PehluKhan was India’s top trending hashtag, with a number of Indians, including those from the diaspora, voicing their anguish.

“In spite of clear video evidences, the killers of #PehluKhan have been acquitted -- Kill Muslims in the name of Cow will NOT take you to the jail but will make you leaders in New India,” tweeted Ashok Swain, a professor of peace and conflict research at Sweden’s Uppsala University.


While India has an independent judiciary, the gradual infiltration of supporters of Hindutva into the country’s institutions has gradually, if not completely, eroded secular principles.

“The delicate balance of secularism in India can only be maintained if the rule of law prevails and enables every citizen to feel equal to others, irrespective of community. For that to be true, a watchful judiciary without the taint of religious bias or motivation is required. While the Supreme Court remains the most important Indian institution in this respect, its sometimes contradictory decisions and the communal overtones espoused by some lower judiciary officials have contributed to the erosion of secularism,” noted Christophe Jaffrelot, research fellow at the Paris-based Centre for International Studies (CERI-Sciences Po) and the French National Centre for Scientific Research (CNRS) in “The Fate of Secularism in India,” a Carnegie Endowment for International Peace report.

While Muslims -- who at around 14 percent of the population comprise India’s largest minority -- face the worst consequences of majoritarianism, other minority groups are not exempt from violent Hindu nationalism, says Ganguly.

“Other minorities are also facing increasing discrimination, including the tiny, miniscule Christian community, with churches burned and attacks on individuals,” noted Ganguly.


A massive market

Barring a few years when a national state of emergency was imposed, India has succeeded in sustaining a democratic system of governance, an achievement that has long placed “the world’s largest democracy” in a postcolonial favourite spot in the international community.

But while the democracy has endured, India is reeling from the populism that has gripped many countries. However in the world’s second-most populous country, things tend to fall apart on a grand scale.

The extent of the disruption has often gone unnoticed by an international community clinging to stereotypes of a spiritual nation where Orientalist visions of a non-monotheist “other” can still be projected in a rapidly unifying, globalised world.

“The excitement of international investors about the potential of the Indian market and the image of a forward-looking, progressive, technologically savvy, growing India joining the ranks of the great democracies is titanic and very hard to overturn,” explained Kamdar.

Many of the world’s political and corporate leaders are not keen to offend New Delhi.

“The world’s key capitals value their partnerships with New Delhi since India has tremendous market opportunity, which is why they don’t want to rock the boat,” explained Michael Kugelman from the Washington DC-based Wilson Center in an interview with FRANCE 24 over the weekend.

A massive market is one of the factors accounting for the weak international response to India’s scrapping of Article 370 last week and its systematic human rights violations in Kashmir. In some respects, this oversight is aided by Pakistan’s track record in supporting jihadist groups as proxy geopolitical tools in Kashmir.

“Pakistan struggles with an image problem overseas and has difficulty getting its voice respected. It has tried the UN General Assembly to project its voice, but it lacks credibility on the world’s stage,” said Kugelman.

On Wednesday, August 14 -- as Pakistanis were celebrating their Independence Day, which falls a day before India’s Islamabad announced that Pakistan had called for an urgent UN Security Council meeting on India’s actions in Kashmir. The special session is scheduled for Friday, August 16.

While major powers and heads of multilateral institutions may still be cautious about censuring New Delhi’s actions in the disputed Kashmir region, a growing international awareness of the crisis could fuel public anger.

Since August 5, demonstrators have been protesting outside the Indian embassy and consulate buildings in cities such as London, New York and Los Angeles. Pro-Kashmir groups have called for another protest outside the Indian High Commission in London on Indian Independence Day. Meanwhile supporters of India’s BJP are also scheduled to hold a demonstration in London on Thursday, raising the spectre of headline-grabbing heated debates. In the Kashmir Valley, the easing of restrictions is likely to spark another wave of protests and unrest, keeping the issue in the international spotlight.

“As the Modi government puts a foot on the accelerator of its Hindu nationalist agenda, it could imperil India’s fairly pristine reputation overseas,” said Kugelman. “Delhi needs to be careful with its optics and the tactics it uses to quell the unrest in the Valley otherwise more negative headlines will put pressure on Western governments to call out India. If major stakeholders start calling out Indian violations, it will then get Pakistan in the place it’s always wanted diplomatically.”
 

MJJ

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One, India is more like a collection of states rather than a single country. Unlike US, there is a big cultural divide amongst different states to even draw a macro picture very difficult. What happens in Gujarat would be completely opposite of what happens in Tamil Nadu.

Two the communal divides in India run far deeper than Hindu vs Muslim. Even though caste system is officially dying, it still is silently prevalent across all levels. You have multiple castes, communities, sects, classes that coexist with various forms of discrimination all through. I'm of the opinion that discrimination happens to a chunk of Indian population and not restricted to Muslims. Hindus and Christians suffer equally badly from inept policies and corrupt government. I'm also of the opinion that suppression of minorities (in general) is somewhat similar to India's peers.

You should also factor in the high population and that Muslims only make up less than 15% of overall population. If you are looking at % in senior positions you should factor that non Muslims outnumber Muslims by a billion more. Bollywood has a lot of Muslims, there has been lot of Muslims in senior positions of government (President of India, Supreme Court etc etc). I'd say Muslims in India have better life than Hindus in Pakistan.

To conclude, does discrimination happen? Yes. Does Muslim targeted discrimination happen? Still Yes (varies by state). Is there any generic all Muslim hated and discrimination in India? Definitely No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_vigilante_violence_in_India_since_2014

But as long as bollywood has a lot of muslims.