Kashmir

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Yes, there is actually such freedom in azad kashmir. What does the common Indian think is the case there? Genuinely curious
Really?

UN HR report as recent as mid 2018:

The report also points to evidence that the armed groups that have operated in Jammu and Kashmir since the late 1980s have committed a wide range of human rights abuses, including kidnappings and killings of civilians and sexual violence. Despite the Government of Pakistan’s denial of any support for these groups, the report notes that a number of experts have concluded that Pakistan’s military continues to support their operations across the Line of Control.

The report also examines a range of human rights violations in Pakistan-Administered Kashmir which, according to the report, are of a different calibre or magnitude and of a more structural nature. In addition, the report says, restrictions on freedoms of expression, peaceful assembly and association in Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) and in Gilgit-Baltistan have limited the ability to obtain information about the situation.

Among the issues highlighted in the report is the constitutional relationship of these two “distinct territories” with Pakistan. AJK has effectively been controlled by Pakistan throughout its entire history. Pakistan’s federal authorities also have full control over all government operations in Gilgit-Baltistan, and federal intelligence agencies are reportedly deployed across both regions.

The impact of Pakistani counter-terrorism operations on human rights is detailed in the report, which notes the concerns of the UN Human Rights Committee at the “very broad definition of terrorism laid down in the Anti-Terrorism Act.” The report quotes a respected national NGO that found hundreds of people had been imprisoned under the Act in Gilgit-Baltistan, and that it was being used to target locals who were raising issues related to people’s human rights.
Azad Kashmir appears peaceful because suppression is total and there's no meddling by India there. Also with proportional less population and scale was easy for Pak govt to silence local populace.

Did you know Pak Govt actively screens whoever is standing in elections and only people with pro-Pak sentiment is allowed to have official role? It's silent because people are used to it, not because they have freedom in speech or religion.
 

Ekkie Thump

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Both could have been detained for similarities. The one i have put out tweets about is openly calling for jihad.
The one being reported on isn't Ahmad though. People aren't publicly questioning your guy's arrest. I suppose it could be his brother or something? maybe? I dunno. All I know is that the bloke being reported on in the newspapers is different to the guy you're posting the tweets from.
 

MJJ

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Really?

UN HR report as recent as mid 2018:



Azad Kashmir appears peaceful because suppression is total and there's no meddling by India there. Also with proportional less population and scale was easy for Pak govt to silence local populace.

Did you know Pak Govt actively screens whoever is standing in elections and only people with pro-Pak sentiment is allowed to have official role? It's silent because people are used to it, not because they have freedom in speech or religion.
Indian security forces used excessive force that led to unlawful killings and a very high number of injuries, the report says, citing civil society estimates that up to 145 civilians were killed by the security forces between mid-July 2016 and the end of March 2018, with up to 20 other civilians killed by armed groups in the same period.

One of the most dangerous weapons used against protesters in 2016 – and which is still being employed by security forces – was the pellet-firing shotgun. According to official figures, 17 people were killed by shotgun pellets between July 2016 and August 2017, and 6,221 people were injured by the metal pellets between 2016 and March 2017. Civil society organizations believe that many of them have been partially or completely blinded.

“Impunity for human rights violations and lack of access to justice are key human rights challenges in the state of Jammu and Kashmir,” the report says, noting that the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act 1990 (AFSPA) and the Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act 1978 (PSA) have “created structures that obstruct the normal course of law, impede accountability and jeopardize the right to remedy for victims of human rights violations.”

The AFSPA prohibits prosecution of security forces personnel unless the Indian Government grants prior permission to prosecute. “This gives security forces virtual immunity against prosecution for any human rights violation. In the nearly 28 years that the law has been in force in Jammu and Kashmir there has not been a single prosecution of armed forces personnel granted by the central government,” the report says.

There is also almost total impunity for enforced or involuntary disappearances, with little movement towards credibly investigating complaints, including into alleged sites of mass graves in the Kashmir Valley and Jammu region.

Chronic impunity for sexual violence also remains a key concern in Kashmir. An emblematic case is the Kunan-Poshpora mass rape 27 years ago when, according to survivors, soldiers gang-raped 23 women. “Attempts to seek justice have been denied and blocked over the years at different levels,” the report say
You "missed" this from the report you posted.
 

MJJ

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At least read my post ffs. I admitted it happens, just cannot be generalized ...

It's like arguing with a child who can't comprehend.
At what stage would you argue it could be generalised? The article I linked shows cow vigilante is on the rise and so is hindu nationalism. Muslims are being increasingly targetted in India regularly.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48882053

In many parts of India, Hindus often invoke the popular god Ram's name as a greeting. But in recent years, Hindu lynch mobs have turned Ram's name into a murder cry, writes the BBC's Geeta Pandey in Delhi.

Last month, a video that went viral on social media showed a terrified Muslim man tied to a pole being assaulted by a lynch mob made up of Hindu men in the eastern state of Jharkhand.

In the video, 24-year old Tabrez Ansari is seen pleading for his life, blood and tears streaming down his face.

His attackers force him to repeatedly chant "Jai Shri Ram", which translates from Hindi to "hail Lord Ram" or "victory to Lord Ram".

Mr Ansari does as told, and when the mob is finished with him, he is handed over to the police.

The police lock him up and his family is not allowed to see him. He dies four days later from injuries sustained during the attack.

Mr Ansari is not the only one to have been singled out in this manner. June was a particularly bloody month for Indian Muslims, who were targeted in several such attacks.

In Barpeta district in the north-eastern state of Assam, a group of young Muslim men were assaulted and then made to chant slogans like "Jai Shri Ram", "Bharat Mata ki Jai" (long live Mother India) and "Pakistan murdabad" (death to Pakistan).

In the commercial capital Mumbai, a 25-year-old Muslim taxi driver was abused, beaten up and told to chant "Jai Shri Ram" by a group of men. Faizal Usman Khan said he was attacked when his taxi broke down and he was trying to fix it. His attackers fled after a passenger called the police.

And in the eastern city of Kolkata, Hafeez Mohd Sahrukh Haldar, a 26-year-old Muslim teacher at a madrassa (religious seminary), was heckled while travelling on a train by a group of men chanting "Jai Shri Ram".

He told reporters that they made fun of his clothes and beard, and then insisted that he also chant the slogans. When he refused, they pushed him out of the moving train. Mr Haldar was injured, but lived to tell the tale.

The slogan-shouting and heckling is no longer restricted to the mob and the streets. Worryingly, it has also entered parliament.

When the newly-elected lower house convened for the first time on 17 June, Muslim and opposition MPs were heckled by members of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) when they stood up to take the oath.

The attacks on the minorities have been condemned by opposition politicians. Rahul Gandhi, before he resigned as leader of the main opposition Congress party, described the mob lynching of Tabrez Ansari as a "blot on humanity".

Many critics, including cartoonist Satish Acharya, have also expressed alarm over the rising number of such incidents.

Image copyrightCOURTESY: SATISH ACHARYA
Image captionCartoonist Satish Acharya says using Ram's name to unleash violence risks widening India's religious divide
In villages across north India, devout Hindus have traditionally used "Ram Ram", "Jai Siya Ram" (goddess Siya or Sita is Ram's consort) or "Jai Ram Ji Ki" as a greeting.

And many feel a sense of unease that these attacks and killings are being carried out in the name of a god revered by millions for his sense of justice and benevolence.

But "Jai Shri Ram" has now been turned into a cry of attack, meant to intimidate and threaten those who worship differently.

The invocation was first used as a political chant in the late 1980s by the BJP to mobilise the Hindu masses during the movement to construct a Ram temple at a disputed siteat Ayodhya.

The party's then president LK Advani launched a march supporting the construction of the temple and in December 1992 mobs chanting "Jai Shri Ram" marched upon the northern town and tore down the 16th Century Babri mosque.

The BJP believes the mosque was built after the destruction of a temple to Ram that once stood there.

The campaign galvanised Hindu voters in favour of the BJP and helped turn Ram from personal to political. Since then, the party has consistently invoked the deity during elections and the 2019 polls were no exception.

Critics say those who heckle minorities, inside parliament and outside it, see the BJP's sweeping victory in the April/May elections as sanctioning their behaviour. The party won more than 300 seats in the 543-member lower house, propelling Mr Modi to a second term.

Mr Modi's first term in power was marked by violence against minorities. There were numerous incidents of Muslims being attacked by so-called "cow vigilantes" over rumours that they had eaten beef, or that they were trying to smuggle cows - an animal many Hindus consider holy - for slaughter.

The prime minister did not condone such attacks, but has been criticised for not condemning them quickly or strongly enough either.

Image copyrightGETTY IMAGES
Image captionMillions of Hindus revere the god Ram for his sense of justice and benevolence
But right after the BJP's stunning victory in May, Mr Modi expanded his earlier slogan of "sabka saath, sabka vikas" (development for all) to include "sabka vishwas" (to win the trust of everyone), giving rise to hopes that this term would be different.

A few days after Tabrez Ansari's death, he told parliament that he was "pained" by the incident and that "the guilty must be severely punished".

But many Indians doubt that any serious action will be taken against those who carry out such attacks.

Several dozen people have been killed and hundreds injured since 2014 in mob attacks, but there have been convictions in only a handful of cases.

In others, the accused remain free, often due to a lack of evidence, and some have been seen being feted by Mr Modi's party's colleagues.

BJP leaders often downplay such incidents, calling them "minor" and accusing the press of "maligning the image of the government".

One BJP MP recently told a news website that the popularity of the slogan "Jai Shri Ram" was a sort of protest by Hindus "against a certain bias and tilt of the polity towards minorities".

"They are also asserting that we are Hindus and we count as Hindus," he said.

But critics say that there are other - better - ways of doing that.
 

MJJ

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Not really. Atrocities on Indian side have been acknowledged. Seems Relevated was under impression Azad Kashmir was much better. Wanted to highlight silent and ugly truth there.
Pillow in what universe is azad kashmir not much better? Can you seriously not see the difference between rape, people being killed, kidnapped and less freedom of speech?

It's like arguing with a child who can't comprehend. Bakht.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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At what stage would you argue it could be generalised? The article I linked shows cow vigilante is on the rise and so is hindu nationalism. Muslims are being increasingly targetted in India regularly.
If you understand the problem you'd realize it happens in places rural communities where Hindu nationalists hold away. The number of instances in rest of states or the urban communities is far less. You're taking actions from few villages and painting and entire country bad. Which is your agenda, so can't fault you. I had to post a more balanced opinion.
It's like arguing with a child who can't comprehend. Bakht.
Ha ha, going back to your all Indians are bakhts strategy?
 

MJJ

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If you understand the problem you'd realize it happens in places rural communities where Hindu nationalists hold away. The number of instances in rest of states or the urban communities is far less. You're taking actions from few villages and painting and entire country bad. Which is your agenda, so can't fault you. I had to post a more balanced opinion.


Ha ha, going back to your all Indians are bakhts strategy?
As far as I know, I have never accused milesmuncher, berbatrick of being bakhts. You do have a problem with all and none though, try using the word some. It will make you seem a lot more smarter.

I mean that is not helpful given how much of india lives below the poverty line and consists of rural ares.Its not just me, you have the likes of BBC and the guardian reporting on the hate crimes against muslims.


And it is important to note that it is harder to prove discrimination in the work place and other areas of life. You seem to have a very rosy view of India and are shutting your eyes to the ugly truth that the nationalists have taken over.

Regarding the bolded, your prime minister is a hindu nationalist and so is a large proportion of his base. Its not just the rural communities.
 

Patrick08

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Pillow in what universe is azad kashmir not much better? Can you seriously not see the difference between rape, people being killed, kidnapped and less freedom of speech?

It's like arguing with a child who can't comprehend. Bakht.
Only one side is spreading, abetting and financing and arming terrorism in the name of religion in J and K, which is Pakistan .
 

MJJ

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Only one side is spreading, abetting and financing and arming terrorism in the name of religion in J and K, which is Pakistan .
I realise I am arguing with somebody who thinks men can't be raped so this is a futile question but can you seriously not see the difference between rape, people being killed, kidnapped and less freedom of speech?
 

Patrick08

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As far as I know, I have never accused milesmuncher, berbatrick of being bakhts. You do have a problem with all and none though, try using the word some. It will make you seem a lot more smarter.

I mean that is not helpful given how much of india lives below the poverty line and consists of rural ares.Its not just me, you have the likes of BBC and the guardian reporting on the hate crimes against muslims.


And it is important to note that it is harder to prove discrimination in the work place and other areas of life. You seem to have a very rosy view of India and are shutting your eyes to the ugly truth that the nationalists have taken over.

Regarding the bolded, your prime minister is a hindu nationalist and so is a large proportion of his base. Its not just the rural communities.
Stop WUMMING. It is post reality about Pakistan you won't spend a minute in this thread wumming anymore.
 

MJJ

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Have to laugh out loud. Sorry you can't be more wrong. Yes, hate crime in on increase...but as usual you are prone to grandoise statements. Keep on.
As long as you find it amusing. Atleast you admitted this, instead of telling @Ekkie Thump how many muslims are in bollywood.

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/03/7068...of-hindu-nationalism-in-india?t=1565907602147

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/22/7158...sm-the-growing-trend-in-india?t=1565907609844

https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-religion/the-violent-toll-of-hindu-nationalism-in-india

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/11/world/asia/modi-india-elections.html

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-137-11508-9_7 ( A report that looks into the rise of hindu nationalism and the marginalisation of muslims in india)

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asi...indu-nationalists-nurture-the-next-generation

But no, I can't be more wrong because pillow said so.
 

MJJ

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Stop WUMMING. It is post reality about Pakistan you won't spend a minute in this thread wumming anymore.
I have no idea what that means but I am happy you discovered a new word (Wumming).

You "phone's autocorrect" is getting worse, before it was just spelling. Now its changing the sentence structure too.
 

MJJ

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I admitted this to Ekeke Thump too.... which you'd have noticed if you read posts rather than just pushing your agenda.
I did and I disagree with this part of your statement.

To conclude, does discrimination happen? Yes. Does Muslim targeted discrimination happen? Still Yes (varies by state). Is there any generic all Muslim hated and discrimination in India? Definitely No.

The generic muslim hatred and discrimination (and not just muslims but against all minorities) is on the rise in India. That is why somebody like Modi is your PM.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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The generic muslim hatred and discrimination (and not just muslims but against all minorities) is on the rise in India. That is why somebody like Modi is your PM.
Sorry but no. The economic agenda of Modi was what gave him a thumping win for first term. Second term I agree is more tenuous. People still see him as a decisive PM esp after Manmohan's puppet term. Though I would say nobody expected this. They have been banging about common law, Ram Temple and we thought Kashmir would be one more idealistic agenda. I personally didn't even expect this would happen. I'm just hoping the situation would resolve soon. Irrespective of your propoganda, most Indians would like to see a peaceful integration and cessation of hostilities in Kashmir.
 

MJJ

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Sorry but no. The economic agenda of Modi was what gave him a thumping win for first term. Second term I agree is more tenuous. People still see him as a decisive PM esp after Manmohan's puppet term. Though I would say nobody expected this. They have been banging about common law, Ram Temple and we thought Kashmir would be one more idealistic agenda. I personally didn't even expect this would happen. I'm just hoping the situation would resolve soon. Irrespective of your propoganda, most Indians would like to see a peaceful integration and cessation of hostilities in Kashmir.
I will just leave this here and end this conversation as we are going off on a tangent.
I'm taking a break. This is tedious.

Mjj, if you are not in Marketing/PR, you've missed your calling.
That lasted long.
 

Ekkie Thump

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One, India is more like a collection of states rather than a single country. Unlike US, there is a big cultural divide amongst different states to even draw a macro picture very difficult. What happens in Gujarat would be completely opposite of what happens in Tamil Nadu.

Two the communal divides in India run far deeper than Hindu vs Muslim. Even though caste system is officially dying, it still is silently prevalent across all levels. You have multiple castes, communities, sects, classes that coexist with various forms of discrimination all through. I'm of the opinion that discrimination happens to a chunk of Indian population and not restricted to Muslims. Hindus and Christians suffer equally badly from inept policies and corrupt government. I'm also of the opinion that suppression of minorities (in general) is somewhat similar to India's peers.

You should also factor in the high population and that Muslims only make up less than 15% of overall population. If you are looking at % in senior positions you should factor that non Muslims outnumber Muslims by a billion more. Bollywood has a lot of Muslims, there has been lot of Muslims in senior positions of government (President of India, Supreme Court etc etc). I'd say Muslims in India have better life than Hindus in Pakistan.

To conclude, does discrimination happen? Yes. Does Muslim targeted discrimination happen? Still Yes (varies by state). Is there any generic all Muslim hated and discrimination in India? Definitely No.
Yeah I gained some (limited) insight into the size and variety of India when I worked there and understand there are many forms of discrimination that take place that go beyond religion. I am not trying to say that other parts of Indian society don't suffer persecution or poverty, simply that Muslims number among them and more often than not suffer among the very worst.

The report I mentioned does supply limited caste data. Its findings were that while there were large regional differences overall the rate of poverty among Muslims was almost as great as those of the Scheduled Castes and Tribes and in many regions was even greater - especially in an urban setting. In almost all regions their plight was greater than that of 'Other backward classes' . Not only that but the rate of improvement for Muslims in areas such as literacy, employment, access to public facilities, etc had improved at a slower rate than any other segment of Indian society. Maybe that's not true - but it is a finding of the report.

With regards to the demographics, yeah Muslims make up less than 15% of the population but in 2006 the report claims they only made up 5% of the public work force and around 3% of higher public positions. Each step up the pyramid results in a smaller proportion of Muslims. Overall Muslims were more poorly represented in the state infrastructure than any other group or caste. I then take a look at the Lok Sabha and find that only 27 of them are Muslim (a decade high!). I look at the BJP and see that none of them are.

I can't help but look at those figures and conclude that Muslims are disproportionately disadvantaged in Indian society unless the figures themselves are wrong. I suspect, though do not know, that the same could be said for Hindus living in Pakistan, which is obviously just as awful.
 
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Patrick08

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I realise I am arguing with somebody who thinks men can't be raped so this is a futile question but can you seriously not see the difference between rape, people being killed, kidnapped and less freedom of speech?
:lol: We are not talking about Balochistan.. But Pak army's jihadi terror export.
 

Patrick08

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With regards to the demographics, yeah Muslims make up less than 15% of the population but in 2006 the report claims they only made up 5% of the public work force and around 3% of higher public positions. Each step up the pyramid results in a smaller proportion of Muslims. Overall Muslims were more poorly represented in the state infrastructure than any other group or caste. I then take a look at the Lok Sabha and find that only 27 of them are Muslim (a decade high!). I look at the BJP and see that none of them are.

I can't help but look at those figures and conclude that Muslims are disproportionately disadvantaged in Indian society unless the figures themselves are wrong. I suspect, though do not know, that the same could be said for Hindus living in Pakistan, which is obviously just as awful.
Where are you quoting this from?
 

Patrick08

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I have no idea what that means but I am happy you discovered a new word (Wumming).

You "phone's autocorrect" is getting worse, before it was just spelling. Now its changing the sentence structure too.
A big WUM.
 

prath92

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Unless those posters have supported human rights violations in the past, the nationality has nothing to do with it.

Don't give me that bs, you seem more concern with the nationality of people pointing out that human rights violations are occurring than the actual violations while a significant part of your country is celebrating that they can now marry fair kashmiri girls. If you guys cared so much, modi government would not be doing what it is doing and there would be protests right now.

Anyways, agree to disagree. You can keep checking the nationality of everyone who posts about kashmir while believing india cares so much about them.
Of course nationality has got everything to do with it. Maybe for you nationality and religion are the same thing but in India being Hindu or Muslim is different from being an Indian. It’s different to you maybe

Whereas their religion has got nowt to do with it. Whereas you have people like you here who accuse people of ‘not caring for the dead because they are Muslims’ or ‘people can’t have opinions because they are Hindu politicians’.

I don’t think you read what you quoted.

A number of incidents of violence have occurred since 2014. According to a June 2017 Reuters report, citing a data journalism website, a total of "28 Indians – 24 of them Muslims – have been killed and 124 injured since 2010 in cow-related violence".[35] The frequency and severity of cow-related violence have been described as "unprecedented".[7]The report stated that "Almost all of the 63 attacks since 2010 involving cow-related violence were recorded after Modi and his Hindu nationalist government came to power in 2014".

While death of even 28 people is bad it’s certainly not even close to what you term as some genocide akin to nazism or whatever.
 

MJJ

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Of course nationality has got everything to do with it. Maybe for you nationality and religion are the same thing but in India being Hindu or Muslim is different from being an Indian. It’s different to you maybe

Whereas their religion has got nowt to do with it. Whereas you have people like you here who accuse people of ‘not caring for the dead because they are Muslims’ or ‘people can’t have opinions because they are Hindu politicians’.


I don’t think you read what you quoted.

A number of incidents of violence have occurred since 2014. According to a June 2017 Reuters report, citing a data journalism website, a total of "28 Indians – 24 of them Muslims – have been killed and 124 injured since 2010 in cow-related violence".[35] The frequency and severity of cow-related violence have been described as "unprecedented".[7]The report stated that "Almost all of the 63 attacks since 2010 involving cow-related violence were recorded after Modi and his Hindu nationalist government came to power in 2014".

While death of even 28 people is bad it’s certainly not even close to what you term as some genocide akin to nazism or whatever.
Parth i will stop responding now as you arent reading posts. The cow vigilantism isn't going on in kashmir.

And for the fourth time, I said that the move mighr be supported by hindus but is not being supported in Kashmir and you responded by saying a hindu politician is supporting it.
 

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I'm not educated enough to know what Kashmir is all about, but between India and Pakistan.... Well the most wanted man in the world Osama Bin Laden was captured right under the Pakistan Government Nose, just a few blocks from their supposed Pakistan Intelligence Centre, kinda hard to deny that they have nothing to do with him in some sort.
 

hasanejaz88

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I'm not educated enough to know what Kashmir is all about, but between India and Pakistan.... Well the most wanted man in the world Osama Bin Laden was captured right under the Pakistan Government Nose, just a few blocks from their supposed Pakistan Intelligence Centre, kinda hard to deny that they have nothing to do with him in some sort.
India have had links with the disruption in Balochistan (whose liberation army has conducted attacks on the army and innocent civilians) and funding of the TTP. Neither country is exactly innocent, every country keeps it's cards. I'm not condoning what Pakistan has done, but to just point the finger at them while claiming the other has it's hands clean is wrong.

Don't like Imran Khan equating Modi with Hitler though, rather than being an exaggeration of what Modi (or whoever is similarly accused of being like Hitler) has done it just marginalizes the extent of horror Hitler did, which I feel is even worse. It should take a lot more shit for Modi to be equated with Hitler.
 

VidaRed

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India have had links with the disruption in Balochistan (whose liberation army has conducted attacks on the army and innocent civilians) and funding of the TTP. Neither country is exactly innocent, every country keeps it's cards. I'm not condoning what Pakistan has done, but to just point the finger at them while claiming the other has it's hands clean is wrong.

Don't like Imran Khan equating Modi with Hitler though, rather than being an exaggeration of what Modi (or whoever is similarly accused of being like Hitler) has done it just marginalizes the extent of horror Hitler did, which I feel is even worse. It should take a lot more shit for Modi to be equated with Hitler.
Any evidence ? Confessions under duress and torture don't count.
 

hasanejaz88

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Any evidence ? Confessions under duress and torture don't count.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-sponsored_terrorism#India

In August 2013 US Special Representative James Dobbins said Pakistan's fears over India's role in Afghanistan were “not groundless".[27] A diplomatic cable sent on December 31, 2009, from the U.S. consulate in Karachi and obtained by WikiLeaks said it was "plausible" that Indian intelligence was helping the Baluch insurgents. An earlier 2008 cable, discussing the Mumbai attacks reported fears by British officials that "intense domestic pressure would force Delhi to respond, at the minimum, by ramping up covert support to nationalist insurgents fighting the Pakistani army in Baluchistan."[28] Another cable dating back to 2009 showed that UAE officials believed India was secretly supporting Tehreek-e-Taliban insurgents and separatists in northwest Pakistan.[29]

Do you honestly believe your country doesn't do covert sponsorship of terrorism? There's a whole other paragraph about India sponsoring terrorist and insurgent groups in Sri Lanka as well.

Honestly how gullible can you be.
 

sport2793

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Dont think Katie Hopkins is the person you want advocating ones position (isnt she racist and anti-immigrant?) but the recent ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Kashmir is a point lost on the minds of the Paks posting in here.