The relative strength of the Premier League

Shame united are so poor as i think europe is there for the taking for english teams at the moment. Can see another english cl winner this season.

Starting the new Champions League campaign with two losses.

Ah, yes

Calling @Wumminator to the stand

Honestly the Valencia game was the more surprising one - just lost their coach and looked terrible vs Barca.

Schneckerl said:

Honestly the Valencia game was the more surprising one - just lost their coach and looked terrible vs Barca.

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Chelsea don’t look anything special either and they look really susceptible at the back. If Liverpool are on it the weekend, I reckon they’ll dick them.

For all the past talk of winter breaks English teams actually tend to perform much more poorly in the group stages.

Chelsea haven't got the 11 to seriously challlenge in CL this season, the Chelsea lads on here have said as much I think. Just getting into knock outs would be good effort from them.

Liverpool of course lost to Napoli away very early on last season. Didn't turn out too badly in the end.

Chelsea have a 3rd UCL GS / +EL and struggling Top4-6 PL squad.

Chelsea are not good and won't make top 4 in the Prem.

Liverpool will beat Napoli at home and get through, will go far.

Amazing how good Napoli are given their turnover. Only around £190m.

thegregster said:

Amazing how good Napoli are given their turnover. Only around £190m.

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Napoli players tend to be very loyal to their club for some reason. The likes of Allan and Koulibaly could easily play for the biggest clubs in the world, and yet they’ve spent their prime in Naples.

Perspective is needed imho, the PL is the deepest for sure (4-5 teams can go all the way) but last year finalists were both one goal from elimination in the group stage: Alisson’s 1vs1 enormous save against Milik in the stoppage time of the sixth group game for Liverpool, Inter being Inter in not dispatching the already eliminated PSV at home while Spurs took advantage of already qualified Barcelona at Nou Camp and both got an unexpected draw.

Schneckerl said:

Honestly the Valencia game was the more surprising one - just lost their coach and looked terrible vs Barca.

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Second that, although penalty miss was pretty woeful, so should have been a draw. I expected us to get a result after clubs respective league games on the weekend and Valencia manager issues.

Have to say we probably don't have the experience to get very far in the CL this year. Should get out of the group though. Different level to most of the PL, most of our young players only got 1st CL appearance yesterday, and obviously first CL game as manager for Lampard as well.

Bepi said:

Perspective is needed imho, the PL is the deepest for sure (4-5 teams can go all the way) but last year finalists were both one goal from elimination in the group stage: Alisson’s 1vs1 enormous save against Milik in the stoppage time of the sixth group game for Liverpool, Inter being Inter in not dispatching the already eliminated PSV at home while Spurs took advantage of already qualified Barcelona at Nou Camp and both got an unexpected draw.

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No way.

Bepi said:

Perspective is needed imho, the PL is the deepest for sure (4-5 teams can go all the way) but last year finalists were both one goal from elimination in the group stage: Alisson’s 1vs1 enormous save against Milik in the stoppage time of the sixth group game for Liverpool, Inter being Inter in not dispatching the already eliminated PSV at home while Spurs took advantage of already qualified Barcelona at Nou Camp and both got an unexpected draw.

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Shows that margins are small and luck plays a big role in cup competitions.

adexkola said:

Ah, yes

Calling @Wumminator to the stand

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Wumminator said:

Oh my days.

I’m so excited this is back.

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If you look at the coefficients after match day 1 and qualifiers you can throw a blanket over Spain, England and Germany. It’s too early to tell but it could suggest a levelling out because most teams have looked vulnerable in some way this season.

https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2020

I recall the Europa League being used as a barometer to discredit the strength of the Premier League, despite at the time arguing that there was no real prize in the competition and that progressing one round wasn't even worth a couple of PL positions given the TV deal... So why would anyone bother.

Strange how since they actually created a prize for winning that tournament the PL has had 4 finalists and 2 winners in 4 years.

Seems to me that English teams don't get themselves geed up for group stage matches like foreign teams do.

Perhaps due to the strains of the average Premier League game English teams cannot separate the significance of a Champions League group stage match from an average Premier League match, and therefore whilst teams from leagues that are less balanced in quality will experience the "big match" feeling and that resulting extra 10% in mental pump from the competition start, English teams do not experience this until the knockout rounds.

Take Tottenham for example; scraped through the group stages last season but were considered in the Premier League title race until February; started putting out good Champions League performances thereon and almost didn't finish in the top four domestically.

Tickle Lad said:

Seems to me that English teams don't get themselves geed up for group stage matches like foreign teams do.

Perhaps due to the strains of the average Premier League game English teams cannot separate the significance of a Champions League group stage match from an average Premier League match, and therefore whilst teams from leagues that are less balanced in quality will experience the "big match" feeling and that resulting extra 10% in mental pump from the competition start, English teams do not experience this until the knockout rounds.

Take Tottenham for example; scraped through the group stages last season but were considered in the Premier League title race until February; started putting out good Champions League performances thereon and almost didn't finish in the top four domestically.

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Nah. Nobody's in good form in early september, with PL and bundesliga usually being better at this point due to their leagues starting earlier. CL is CL, even in the group stages you're bound to play teams that on a good night can beat you, even if you're city

As to spurs, they opened in milan against inter in the midst of an injury crisis, were fairly unlucky to lose, then lost to the best barcelona of the season, then drew PSV away in a game they should have won comfprtably. At the same time their performances in the league were underwhelming. The moment they started playing well in the league, they also started playing better and getting results in CL

If you look at game day 1, spurs put out the same level of performance they'd been putting out in the league, the same kind that saw them lose to newcastle, at a tough away ground against a decent team. Chelsea likewise were their usual selves, created a ton while giving up big chances. They lost because they didn't take their chances. City won comfortably, and Liverpool had the toughest game away at Napoli, essentially played them even until the late penalty

giorno said:

Nah. Nobody's in good form in early september, with PL and bundesliga usually being better at this point due to their leagues starting earlier. CL is CL, even in the group stages you're bound to play teams that on a good night can beat you, even if you're city

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Correct but my point was that any team being able to beat any other team is exactly the same circumstance as any Premier League game, but not the same circumstance as any Bundesliga/Serie A/La Liga game due to their comparatively high inequalities. Therefore a Champions League group stage game holds a greater "big game" feeling for foreign teams than Premier League teams, naturally giving them an extra 10% in mental tauntess.

giorno said:

As to spurs, they opened in milan against inter in the midst of an injury crisis, were fairly unlucky to lose, then lost to the best barcelona of the season, then drew PSV away in a game they should have won comfprtably. At the same time their performances in the league were underwhelming. The moment they started playing well in the league, they also started playing better and getting results in CL

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Not sure about your version of history. Up to the PSV 2-2 away game which caused them to be 1 point from 3 CL games, they had 21 points from 9 Premier League games and were 2 points off the top. Then right before the 1-1 away draw to Barcelona which cemented their last game knockout qualification they were 36 points from 16 PL games, 6 points off the top.

This means that they averaged 2.33 points per Premier League game during their poor first half of their Champions league group campaign, whilst averaging 2.14 points per Premier League game during the second half of their Champions League group when they turned it around.

Do you think therefore that it's possible that your "the moment they started playing well in the league, they also started playing better and getting results in CL" assertion is wrong and in fact it was not their domestic form which positively impacted their Champions League form, but the sense of jeopardy that led to a big match feeling in their CL games?

giorno said:

If you look at game day 1, spurs put out the same level of performance they'd been putting out in the league, the same kind that saw them lose to newcastle, at a tough away ground against a decent team. Chelsea likewise were their usual selves, created a ton while giving up big chances. They lost because they didn't take their chances. City won comfortably, and Liverpool had the toughest game away at Napoli, essentially played them even until the late penalty

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Agreed, like I say above they all put out the same level of performance as they have been doing domestically, but not 10% better as their opponents may have.

Ultimately I think fans have subconsciously grown used to this state of affairs. For example, we judge Napoli vs Liverpool to be a 50/50 toss up due to its occurrence in the group stages. If the fixture were thrown up during the knockout rounds however, we'd say "Liverpool will be very happy with that" and very much them expect to win.

Tickle Lad said:

Correct but my point was that any team being able to beat any other team is exactly the same circumstance as any Premier League game, but not the same circumstance as any Bundesliga/Serie A/La Liga game due to their comparatively high inequalities. Therefore a Champions League group stage game holds a greater "big game" feeling for foreign teams than Premier League teams, naturally giving them an extra 10% in mental tauntess.


Not sure about your version of history. Up to the PSV 2-2 away game which caused them to be 1 point from 3 CL games, they had 21 points from 9 Premier League games and were 2 points off the top. Then right before the 1-1 away draw to Barcelona which cemented their last game knockout qualification they were 36 points from 16 PL games, 6 points off the top.

This means that they averaged 2.33 points per Premier League game during their poor first half of their Champions league group campaign, whilst averaging 2.14 points per Premier League game during the second half of their Champions League group when they turned it around.

Do you think therefore that it's possible that your "the moment they started playing well in the league, they also started playing better and getting results in CL" assertion is wrong and in fact it was not their domestic form which positively impacted their Champions League form, but the sense of jeopardy that led to a big match feeling in their CL games?


Agreed, like I say above they all put out the same level of performance as they have been doing domestically, but not 10% better as their opponents may have.

Ultimately I think fans have subconsciously grown used to this state of affairs. For example, we judge Napoli vs Liverpool to be a 50/50 toss up due to its occurrence in the group stages. If the fixture were thrown up during the knockout rounds however, we'd say "Liverpool will be very happy with that" and very much them expect to win.

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That's just a marketing myth. The difference between Liverpool and city and the rest of the teams in the pl is as big as the top teams and the rest in any other league. The bottom teams of the premier league have more money than in other leagues, yes, but still, they are as bad as in any other league. One great year of the pl in Europe and suddenly you guys start acting like it has been dominating Europe for years.

Tickle Lad said:

Correct but my point was that any team being able to beat any other team is exactly the same circumstance as any Premier League game,

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Yeah sorry but this is bullshit. Check out City and Liverpool

As for spurs, chelsea, arsenal united, sure. But then so's the case for their spanish/german/italian equivalents

Not sure about your version of history. Up to the PSV 2-2 away game which caused them to be 1 point from 3 CL games, they had 21 points from 9 Premier League games and were 2 points off the top. Then right before the 1-1 away draw to Barcelona which cemented their last game knockout qualification they were 36 points from 16 PL games, 6 points off the top.

This means that they averaged 2.33 points per Premier League game during their poor first half of their Champions league group campaign, whilst averaging 2.14 points per Premier League game during the second half of their Champions League group when they turned it around.

Do you think therefore that it's possible that your "the moment they started playing well in the league, they also started playing better and getting results in CL" assertion is wrong and in fact it was not their domestic form which positively impacted their Champions League form, but the sense of jeopardy that led to a big match feeling in their CL games?

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No, spurs were getting results in the PL while playing badly. They lost away to inter, away to watford and home to liverpool. Basically their 3 toughest games, they lost all of them playing badly in all 3. They played well against barcelona, that was around the time they started playing well in the league as well. The draw against PSV was a case of freak result, as spurs dominated that game and should have won comfortably

But so long as we're talking about spurs, the season before they started their group with a win over dortmund, followed by a comfortable thrashing of apoel, then drew at the bernabeu, then beat madrid at home, then beat dortmund again away...

It's not that PL side don't gave that extra 10% you're talking about in the group stages, it's just that group stages are 6 games, against mostly good sides, and freak results happen all the time in football. Playing away against the champions of greece is far tougher than playing away to leicester for an english side, so long as they're a good side

Agreed, like I say above they all put out the same level of performance as they have been doing domestically, but not 10% better as their opponents may have.

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Another point: inter drew at home against slavia prague, playing by far their worst game of the season. Atalanta got smashed by dinamo zagreb, a team that with all due respect isn't at their level. Barcelona were lucky to escape with a draw in dortmund, real madrid got torn apart in paris, atletico barely salvaged a draw against juventus(who pissed away a 2 goal lead in turn), leverkusen lost at home to a russian side, and valencia did win at the bridge but as i've already mentioned, they were quite lucky to do so

For example, we judge Napoli vs Liverpool to be a 50/50 toss up due to its occurrence in the group stages. If the fixture were thrown up during the knockout rounds however, we'd say "Liverpool will be very happy with that" and very much them expect to win.

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We still expect liverpool to beat napoli at anfield. But i don't know how many people actually expected liverpool to win in Naples.

Now, your point about that extra 10% i think is valid for clubs from minor leagues, for whom playing in CL is the highlight of the season and often they're not expected to go past the group stages. But for teams from the big 4 leagues, it's pretty much the same thing

rojo81 said:

That's just a marketing myth. The difference between Liverpool and city and the rest of the teams in the pl is as big as the top teams and the rest in any other league. The bottom teams of the premier league have more money than in other leagues, yes, but still, they are as bad as in any other league. One great year of the pl in Europe and suddenly you guys start acting like it has been dominating Europe for years.

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City have finished 4th, 3rd, 1st & 1st in the past 4 seasons. Liverpool have finished 8th, 4th, 4th & 2nd in the past 4 seasons. I don’t really see the hegemony you imply.

There’s no real way to grade the weaker sides but the PL has topped the UEFA coefficient for two seasons now so it’s not unreasonable to say the PL is the strongest league.

Classical Mechanic said:

City have finished 4th, 3rd, 1st & 1st in the past 4 seasons. Liverpool have finished 8th, 4th, 4th & 2nd in the past 4 seasons. I don’t really see the hegemony you imply.

There’s no real way to grade the weaker sides but the PL has topped the UEFA coefficient for two seasons now so it’s not unreasonable to say the PL is the strongest league.

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I have no problem saying the pl is the best league in the world, it probably is, but that notion that the group stages of the cl are irrelevant because every game in the pl is so competitive is just not true.

Calling @Wumminator after the Spurs result today

SilentWitness said:

6 points between 5th and 17th and 11 games in. Championship level of competitiveness this season. I like it.

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So 7 clubs not concerned by the competitiveness, that's really not impressive.

It's a very interesting league if you take out the top 2.

No one can really predict the three teams who'll go down unlike last season for a start.

FootballHQ said:

It's a very interesting league if you take out the top 2.

No one can really predict the three teams who'll go down unlike last season for a start.

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Top 2 aren't exactly running away with it either...(apart from which, Atletico Madrid have probably finished in the 'top 2' as often as Real Madrid have of late).

Didn’t really know where to put this and I didn’t really want to make another thread so I’ll just chuck it here:

Out of the 7 players who have 10+ goals in the PL, 6 are English:

Jamie Vardy - 17
Marcus Rashford - 12
Danny Ings - 12
Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang - 12
Tammy Abraham - 11
Harry Kane - 11
Raheem Sterling - 11

That’s pretty cool. When was the last time English players dominated the top scorer list like this?

DWelbz19 said:

Didn’t really know where to put this and I didn’t really want to make another thread so I’ll just chuck it here:

Out of the 7 players who have 10+ goals in the PL, 6 are English:

Jamie Vardy - 17
Marcus Rashford - 12
Danny Ings - 12
Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang - 12
Tammy Abraham - 11
Harry Kane - 11
Raheem Sterling - 11

That’s pretty cool. When was the last time English players dominated the top scorer list like this?

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For 6 out of the top 7? 94/95 by my reckoning looking at that - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top_Premier_League_goal_scorers_by_season

Some good showings for the English players since then but never that dominant again up until now.

Chipper said:

For 6 out of the top 7? 94/95 by my reckoning looking at that - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top_Premier_League_goal_scorers_by_season

Some good showings for the English players since then but never that dominant again up until now.

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It'll be interesting to see if the likes of Ings, Abraham, and Rashford can keep it up -- the rest are all players we're used to seeing near the top of the charts. They'll need to keep it up to stay ahead of Aguero/Salah/Mane!

I think the overall standard of teams outside the top 6 is higher than ever, and it's kind of, strangely, making for a weaker league, as points are all over the place and it's unpredictable whether they show up.

Top of the coefficients, just, at the end of the group stages.

https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2020

Chipper said:

For 6 out of the top 7? 94/95 by my reckoning looking at that - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top_Premier_League_goal_scorers_by_season

Some good showings for the English players since then but never that dominant again up until now.

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The % of English players starting in the PL in the 90s was far higher too, Newcastle in 94/95 only had 8 non-English players in their 31 man squad, for example. Last Christmas time it reached a record low when only 24% of starting players were English. This season it’s peaked at 38% and stayed at around 35% consistently starting. It’s down to the youngsters that are coming through and starting to make a name for themselves.

Come on. The Prem is poor. How are we fifth? We cannot be described as anything but v v average. Sheff Utd are a point behind us. Crystal Palace three points behind.

This is an amazingly average league. V few truly outstanding players.

Liverpool are v v good.. But are being made to look like some super-team. They are not. Yet no one can get close to them.

Why?

Wolves, Leicester and Sheff Utd are competing for CL places. And that isn't because the quality is higher. Liverpool aside, the 'top' teams are all poorer than they were last season.

Jeffthered said:

Come on. The Prem is poor. How are we fifth? We cannot be described as anything but v v average. Sheff Utd are a point behind us. Crystal Palace three points behind.

This is an amazingly average league. V few truly outstanding players.

Liverpool are v v good.. But are being made to look like some super-team. They are not. Yet no one can get close to them.

Why?

Wolves, Leicester and Sheff Utd are competing for CL places. And that isn't because the quality is higher. Liverpool aside, the 'top' teams are all poorer than they were last season.

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How would you explain both major European finals being contested by English sides only last season then and for the past two seasons the 7 English sides in Europe getting enough points to top the coefficients?