Allegedly
According to the country that has times and times again lies about other nation when it suits them.
China bullies Hong Kong
- Thread starter Cal?
- Start date
According to the country that has times and times again lies about other nation when it suits them.
I asked if it is true, if you would consider it a dictatorship. You can keep poking the bear with US, other nations, etc. My question si the question it is. If you think is not true, then you don't classify China as a dictatorship. If you could make an exercise of imagination that China would do this things, would you consider that China would be a dictatorship?
In other words, I am not asking if China is a dictatorship, I am asking, if China (or any other country) would do what is being accused in my examples, would you consider it a dictatorship?
Oh, and not answering is your right and your choice, but answering with no answers is losing both our time
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I honestly dont understand your question. But I'll just get to the point.
You want me to say china is a dictatorship. Yes they are.
Oppressive? No. I dont think they're oppresive.
Is all dictatorship bad? That depends on who's asking.
Telling people what to do? How many kids they should have? What crops to grow? That's governing. Every country in the world govern their citizen in some kind of laws and regulations. You must do this, you must pay this, or you get jailed or fined, military drafting, you cant import this now, or pay tarrif for this product. Does every citizen has a choice not to obey whatver the government dictate?
When is it called government, when is it called dictators?
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It's a nuanced question I feel and the answer probably has to reflect that...
I grew up the son of an expat in HK and lived in UK before I moved back and lived in China (before thailand and USA and UK again) ... My wife grew up in China
We both probably view the situation through a different lens and have different views
I would say unless you have been to China it's hard to understand the change in lifestyle many have gone through even in one generation but certainly in two... And for most people this has been largely positive
Many recognise the part that the structured centralised growth plans have played in this and as such see things through a lens where people attacking the government are attacking their way if life.
That's not to imply people are brainwashed (well I guess there is an element of that in the education system but equally don't the USA pledge allegence to the flag every term as well... Or is that TV bullshit?)... But most people know and accept that information is controlled and certainly everybody we know in China has access to full internet via vpn's etc so just as the UK porn laws won't stop people ******* away to porn hub the "great firewall" does not stop most people finding out a broader base of information... Eg I brought a new phone last time I was there in a high end mall... Walked outside to the "phone doctor" and in 20 mins had Google / android fully installed and a VPN... It cost me less than a fiver
With the Uyghur example me and the wife take quite different views...
I see it through a lens of having been around bombings in southern Thailand and I view the separatist cause as something of a concern but I feel it's being tackled in the wrong way and they will ultimately make the separatist movement more violent with a genuine threat of Islamic terrorism emerging through it (and the thought of china and America hand in hand stomping out Islamic movements around the globe with no regard for collateral damage is not an image I like)
The wife on the other hand feels the separatist movement is a direct attack on Chinese national identity (she is
From guangxi which is it's self a region with increased autonomy but very much identifies as Chinese ... Eg her first language is mandarin but for her parents it is Cantonese) ... She feels the response is too lax
China is a big place and you will find a lot of opinions... And contrary to the image presented although you might not find these opinions on TV many people freely discuss them (though in my experience they won't discuss them in English much with me but will in mandarin / Cantonese ... I out this more down to it being complex issues people want to discuss in a language they are fluent in)
HK is a different matter... My family left around the time of the handover... Mainly work related but it was obvious what was going to happen over the next generation... I think a lot of the problem festers because some people who stayed thought HK would remain as it was and it would be China that changed (tail.wagging the dog)... I think some stayed because at the time HK was such an economic powerhouse in the region people there were very rich my mainland standards in general and to be honest there was not insignificant racism and looking down on people from the mainland (particularly Beijing though you could argue that cuts both ways and goes broader than HK and is more a Cantonese thing)... But way worse from some HK with a bit of a sniffy attitude ...
I feel that the economic rise of the mainland is leaving HK in its wake and it's dawning on people that in 20 years not only will HK be treated like the rest of china but it won't be particularly special or powerful place either and some don't like that.
For me I think china just needs to sit back and let people carry on... Tourism will suffer... Businesses will relocate and it will simply be quicker / easier in the long run for China (e.g. I'd shut the airport's if people protested there and presented a danger straight away) ... Always considered HK part of china... Always has been and always will be to me and as such Chinese rule and law should be respected
There is if course the 2 systems but that was always I feel a temporary transition stage and only ever had one ending
The wife feels slightly different again ... She says cut off power and food to the island and then see how people treat the protesters
If you look at other issues eg Taiwan I've always seen that as independent but she does not
tiananmen we see the same... PR disaster and something the government is far too smart to repeat.
Over all our friends there you will find differing views but in general I think it's underestimated outside of the region just how much respect people have for the government
Over 2 generations my wife's family have moved from a rural poor family to one that lives in a modern city with all the convenience and opportunity that brings
Her attitude to it could I guess be summed up as you don't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs
China is too big and complex to boil down to. Few simple strands ... I guess the stat I use with people is that china has almost twice as many people as Europe so as you can appreciate it has a hell of a lot of varied opinions on things as well
Friends from shanghai or Beijing Vs friends in smaller cities again have a different lens and just as northern and southern Europe have some differences so does china in outlook as well.
I don't consider china a dictatorship as I've also worked extensively in the middle east and Africa and I find many of those regimes more authoritarian and controlled... For sure China is a much more centrally managed system than you find in Europe but again you can go back hundreds of years and it always has been that way since it became one country
I mean UK is practically a dictatorship with a non representative electoral system when compared to Scandinavia so it's all relative I guess
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China is actually a meritocracy. I am not a Chinese but have been all over Asia too many a times. The issue of Uighur is a lot more than just "re education" camps. It is neither a concentration camp nor a re education camp. It is more of an open prison. But for the Uighers in there it is the religious issue and for the Chinese it is the fundamentalist Islamic terrorism that is the core issue.
There is actually a voting system in China where everyone can vote at some level to elect local committees who then elect higher committees who then go on that way to the NCP who elect the Sec.Gen of the CCP who mostly becomes the President. XI is going to get thrown out if he fails for sure. It is not the military but the NCP who will throw him out.
But that is separate from HK. China has not yet interfered in HK. It is adhering to the Basic Law. For people who say the extradition treaty to China is the issue it is not actually only to China but to many other countries including to Taiwan too. But China is the only one that is being Highlighted. Let me tell you those kind of extradition treaties are bad for everyone. Look at what happened to Snowden in HK. He was forced to fly from HK or else he would have been arrested and flown to the USA.
Look at what is happening in Canada. The CFO of Huwawei is being arrested for something she did against US laws which has got nothing to do with Canada.
So I entirely agree with the issue of the extradition treaty. They all should be banned.
Now as far as the concerned HK Police has been very restrained. No one has been kettled or even water cannons used. Yet the rioters have been very violent and beaten up two guy of which one was a reporter and another they thought was a policeman but now according to the Guardian is actually a student.
His name was googled and they found it the same name as of a policeman.
It is a lot more than just this that has boiled over in HK. HK will be a failed City if they do not stop this kind of activities. Actually the LegCo is a an elected body of 35 members directly elected by the electorate and 35 by the functional constituencies which is made of the other trade and business industry. Each sector of the trade and business has number of seats in the LegCo. This is where the problem is. This LegCo regulations were passed on to the HK LegCo from the time of the British. The article 68 says that eventually Universal suffrage must be used to elect all members of the council. Article 45 says about electing the CE. Now the FC does not want universal suffrage either as then they lose their 35 members. There is no way that China would also allow one man one vote without a veto over them. HK is not an independent country.
HK is part of China anyway and was taken at gunpoint and now returned after the 99 years. The Chinese has been very good in maintaining the Basic Law in HK and has not made anything to break it so far.
At the end of the day they did not even have to agree to the Basic Law and maintain one country two systems but very obligingly did it because of Taiwan whom they are encouraging to join China peacefully. Fat chance. They have kept HK by supporting the business there by not allowing the the Chinese airports and seaports to take away the business of HK. HK is the gateway to China now because the Chinese government wants it to be. If they want they could divert all their business to the mainland Chinese airports and airports and crush HK without the PLA setting a foot inside HK. (I know they have a garrison there).
There is actually a voting system in China where everyone can vote at some level to elect local committees who then elect higher committees who then go on that way to the NCP who elect the Sec.Gen of the CCP who mostly becomes the President. XI is going to get thrown out if he fails for sure. It is not the military but the NCP who will throw him out.
But that is separate from HK. China has not yet interfered in HK. It is adhering to the Basic Law. For people who say the extradition treaty to China is the issue it is not actually only to China but to many other countries including to Taiwan too. But China is the only one that is being Highlighted. Let me tell you those kind of extradition treaties are bad for everyone. Look at what happened to Snowden in HK. He was forced to fly from HK or else he would have been arrested and flown to the USA.
Look at what is happening in Canada. The CFO of Huwawei is being arrested for something she did against US laws which has got nothing to do with Canada.
So I entirely agree with the issue of the extradition treaty. They all should be banned.
Now as far as the concerned HK Police has been very restrained. No one has been kettled or even water cannons used. Yet the rioters have been very violent and beaten up two guy of which one was a reporter and another they thought was a policeman but now according to the Guardian is actually a student.
His name was googled and they found it the same name as of a policeman.
It is a lot more than just this that has boiled over in HK. HK will be a failed City if they do not stop this kind of activities. Actually the LegCo is a an elected body of 35 members directly elected by the electorate and 35 by the functional constituencies which is made of the other trade and business industry. Each sector of the trade and business has number of seats in the LegCo. This is where the problem is. This LegCo regulations were passed on to the HK LegCo from the time of the British. The article 68 says that eventually Universal suffrage must be used to elect all members of the council. Article 45 says about electing the CE. Now the FC does not want universal suffrage either as then they lose their 35 members. There is no way that China would also allow one man one vote without a veto over them. HK is not an independent country.
HK is part of China anyway and was taken at gunpoint and now returned after the 99 years. The Chinese has been very good in maintaining the Basic Law in HK and has not made anything to break it so far.
At the end of the day they did not even have to agree to the Basic Law and maintain one country two systems but very obligingly did it because of Taiwan whom they are encouraging to join China peacefully. Fat chance. They have kept HK by supporting the business there by not allowing the the Chinese airports and seaports to take away the business of HK. HK is the gateway to China now because the Chinese government wants it to be. If they want they could divert all their business to the mainland Chinese airports and airports and crush HK without the PLA setting a foot inside HK. (I know they have a garrison there).
The police have been restrained? Did you miss all the pictures of people who were hit the eye with rubber bullets? I think they probably would have preferred water cannons.
Yes simply make it tax breneficial for companies to move office to the mainland and delist from Hong Kong exchange to Shanghai... And / or enforce stricter checks on entry / exit which would hit transport in a big way
And that's without even restricting the flow of energy water and food on which HK relies (quicker but not without international blow back)... The wife says turn the power and water off and see how long the protesters last against the people not currently protesting
I feel the Chinese government is too smart for that and it's in their interest to keep hk as a nice landing point for European companies and an active finance hub and as such they will progress slowly... But for sure they could crush this economically as easily as they could with tanks (though without the international reprocussions )
Don't the police in the UK authorise rubber bullets but not water cannons ? (Hence Boris buying 6 broken water cannons was such a stupid idea when mayor of London)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cannon
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ire-rubber-bullets-in-london-7575904.html?amp
So perhaps that would be the same even if HK was still under UK rule
Plus water cannons it seems also kill and blind people
https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...r-south-korean-farmer-who-died-injuries-water
I suspect in a HK crowd situation it would be very difficult to manouver and be accurate
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Have you ever been in a situation where there is a violent riot or taken part in one? By the way the lady who was supposed to be hit in the eye was not of a rubber bullet but a marble like object that most people now believe was not from the Police but someone from a sling shot.
Irrespective of what country violent riots should be controlled with force.
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I wouldnt call it a dictatorship, despite Xi's best efforts, but it's certainly far from as free and democratic as the West is. Authoritarian is the right word. The government recognises that to grow they need certain freedoms, but with 1.7 billion people and such wildly different living standards and education levels, they also need to exercise control over the majority.
You will also get a different answer to your question depending on who you ask. Older Chinese are happy to think what they're told to think, maybe because the China they see today is much better than the one they grew up in. The education system, for those that had it back then, was also based around repeating what you are told rather than critical thinking. The party lines have been ingrained since birth. Younger Chinese who don't have those reference points are more likely to be critical of the government.
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128k protesters? There were far more than that peacefully demonstrating in the rain.Tweet
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State propaganda apparatus isn't being very subtle. It's amazing that they're trumpeting the freedom of the press.
Hong Kongers raise the US flag while protesting the Communist government of China....
Meanwhile, in the US, protestors raise the hammer and sickle, while protesting against the democratically elected...
Weird...
Meanwhile, in the US, protestors raise the hammer and sickle, while protesting against the democratically elected...
Weird...
Thanks for making the effort @Sky1981 on answering, and thanks @sun_tzu , @Foxbatt , and @11101 for your detailed and point of view. Only through people that know more on the terrain and their personal point of view, I can put more pieces of the puzzle. Media will always express the point of view of the wan they pay them (private and/or public interest)
Oh boy. This is wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start
He's utterly clueless.
Reminds of the Portuguese far right when they claim the Angolans and Mozambicans were so happy we were there developing their lands and bringing them all the cool stuff we had.
It's so depressing seeing people who have all the freedom in the world to be informed and speak about what they want using that freedom to justify regimes that deny those same freedoms to their citizens.
It's so depressing seeing people who have all the freedom in the world to be informed and speak about what they want using that freedom to justify regimes that deny those same freedoms to their citizens.
I do not know why some people keep not understanding the situation? I certainly do not think China is a beacon of democracy. I do not think anyone who knows about China would say it is a democracy. At the same time, they would not say it is a communist country either. Yes I know they have the Communist Party of China. But it does not mean it is any more communist than Singapore is. China is a meritocracy just like Singapore. North Korea calls themselves the Democratic Peoples Korea and they are not democratic either.
Now back to HK. So far China has not been involved directly. That does not mean it will not in the future. China does not need HK anymore and they would rather let it die than lose them physically. I am going to quote here
"The Chinese government is looking to restructure the three gateway ports in southern mainland China and Hong Kong, with the latter focusing on transshipment and imports into the mainland; Guangzhou serving domestic cargo; and Shenzhen geared toward exports, with some import handling.
The proposals are among five recommendations to bolster Hong Kong's freight and transport sector made to the Chinese government by central government adviser and Hong Kong lawmaker Frankie Yick Chi-ming following discussions with logistics service provider and shipper interests.
Shenzhen, Guangzhou, and Hong Kong — the third-, fifth-, and seventh-busiest container ports in the world, respectively — had a combined throughput of 67.3 million TEU in 2018. Shenzhen throughput was up 2.1 percent last year from 2017, while Guangzhou rose 7.64 percent, and Hong Kong was down 5.68 percent."
This shows that already the Chinese ports of Shenzhen and Guangzhou has already overtaken HK and the Beijing wants to help HK. But in the eventuality that HK rebels they will just let it die.
What is already worse in terms of the housing and financial problems in HK will multiply and the economy will collapse. Why HK survived was because it was the gateway to China. Without China HK will surely die. The break up with China will not be peaceful and like Iran with the US sanctions cannot survive HK cannot survive without China. Unlike Iran, HK has not much products either. The port will lose, the airport will lose and all the financial institutions will move to Shenzhen. Is anyone going to do any business with HK if the choice is between HK and mainland China?
I feel sorry for the people of HK. They have a lot more freedom than most countries and yet they want to destroy it. Enjoy it now while they can. There is nothing they can do about it by rioting. Try to get more legislators they support into the Legco. If they get an absolute majority then they can impeach the CE Carrie Lam and get rid of her.
Tibet is actually open as a tourist destination, maybe you should see for yourself how bad they're being treated.
As you've told me earlier, I see no point in trying to show you what multiple international reports from multiple sources say about religious and political oppression in Tibet. You've made up your mind about China.
But following your own advice, maybe you can try and go to Tibet and spread the word about the Dalai Lama's teaching and see what happens. I'm sure you'll come back with a heart warming tale to tell.
Yeah. Time will tell.
Maybe one day you'll see the world beyond the western lies and bias.
I'm sure those who flee the country say the things they say because of western lies and bias.
You know what happened to the HK protest leader?
They got admitted to the US and UK ivy league, granted citizenship, slapped a champion for freedom tag, got a nice job as Chinese analyst.
Look. Dont believe the media from both sides.
But check the motives, is it logical for china to kill their own population? What are the west motives? Look back on their characteristic as a nation. Does the west especially the US and UK are champion of freedom themselves? Have they had in the past fabricated lies to invade a nation? There are many Tibetans that holds a post at ccp. Many western tourist blogs about tibet. See for yourself how improved tibet now.
Dont take my word for it. But open your mind, maybe half the world isnt out to kill their own countrymen as the US wants you to believe.
We've derailled this thread long enough. Feel free to make one on tibet or ccp.
Yes, only Hong Kong protest leaders get to go to America to study at prestigious universities. 360,000 Chinese students are in the US for university degrees, which is what Nathan Law is doing. He has not been granted citizenship in the US.I don't get your point about the protest leader. I don't know if what you're saying is true, but it's irrelevant. If tomorrow some random dissident from Nort Korea was welcomed in the US, doesn't mean North Korea is ok.
As for your questions on Tibet, literally all dictatorships in the modern era have killed their own citizens by the millions, fabricated lies to invade countries and welcomed collaborators in their political setup. That doesn't mean their not oppressing millions in occupied regions.
I am very open to things, and in fact I don't have much sympathy for Tibet pre-chinese invasion. It looked like a terrible place to live and people were treated like crap. But I feel you're denying obvious things regarding China.
If you see. There's a pattern emerging. The issue is that the US is involved in this protest, be it direct involvement, orchestrating or providing support for this movement, something they have done more often than not all across the world. They create this china is evil naratives the way they create the USSR is evil in the 90s.
China isnt perfect, a country with 1.4bn citizen will be hard to control and tough stance and iron hand would be necessary. But a prime evil dictatorship that detains and torture and suppress tibet by force, prosecuting religion? I dont think so.
There are many mosque in ughyur, and the potala palace in tibet is still open for tourist including western tourist. Do you think that's possible if the chinese are what they're accused of? Do you see westerner being abducted? This is 2019, vpn and smartphones, and the west digital satellite, if such thing happens you can be sure more reports and videos at least will start coming out rather than a mere reports.
Propanda? Do you honestly believe the chinese can suppress the flow of information if they indeed kills their citizens by millions in 2019?
Do you think an oppressed tibet where china can abduct anyone at will can be open to tourism and smiling to foreigners? You honestly believe such thing is possible?
I'm not looking to change your mind, but if youre really open minded than perhaps be skeptics for a start and start digging up more. The media isnt always neutral and they have their own sinister agenda, brexit and fox are a good example that media can be extremely manipulative. Iran is a good example, the west dismantle a flourishing nation and put an oppressice puppet mullah and call it democracy. Notice how the west never brand KSA as dictatorship?
On 1 February 2018, a bipartisan group of US lawmakers, led by Congressional-Executive Commission on China (CECC) Chair US Senator Marco Rubio and co-chair US Representative Chris Smith announced they had nominated[63] Wong, Nathan Law, Alex Chow and the entire Umbrella Movement for the 2018 Nobel Peace Prize, for "their peaceful efforts to bring political reform and protect the autonomy and freedoms guaranteed Hong Kong in the Sino-British Joint Declaration".[64]
Here's another absurd example of the US granting asylum to a well known trouble maker
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...n-the-us-after-department-of-homeland-9253728
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From my in laws perspective who are from Yuen Long in HK, they are worried that the protestors are taking things too far which in turn might be counterproductive.
When speculating on China’s response I think it’s essential to consider that China heavily depends on HK’s financial market, in a sense it’s China’s gate way to the rest of the World. HK’s financial market can only function properly under the current capitalist system in HK. That includes freedom of speech etc. So a Tiananmensquare like approach is unlikely.
When speculating on China’s response I think it’s essential to consider that China heavily depends on HK’s financial market, in a sense it’s China’s gate way to the rest of the World. HK’s financial market can only function properly under the current capitalist system in HK. That includes freedom of speech etc. So a Tiananmensquare like approach is unlikely.
Well they definitely took things too far when they openly abducted that guy at the airport. Hopefully that was the boiling point and they've toned it down a bit, with the apologies and expressions of regret etc. Still there were many ugly scenes where foreigners were arguing with the protestors and simply trying to board their plane. Tiananmen will never happen unless a majority of them become riotors and start burning down the city. Highly unlikely as both sides are also trying to fight and win the media war.
None of that backs up what you claimed about any of the leaders of the HK protest movement. Nominating them for the Nobel Peace Prize for peaceful pro-democratic demonstrations is not granting them asylum, citizenship, or other legal rights. It's honoring them for their attempts to peacefully reform Hong Kong.
China will not send in the troops. They do not have to. They will just divert all the business through Shenzhen and Guanzhou. Right now because of HK they have refused to do this. The Pearl Delta Region is going to be an Economic Zone with different taxes and other incentives. HK was supposed to be part of this but China can easily do this without HK now. Not in 1997 for sure but now it is not so important. Given a choice of doing business with China or HK most will chose China. This is what happened to Taiwan and Taiwan is much bigger and much richer than HK.
These two paragraphs hit the nail on the head i think. For the older generations they view the government relative to what it used to be, so they will always see it in a positive light and being pushed around a bit is nothing compared to living under Mao's shadow. It's an acceptable price to pay for the massive transformation in living standards. Younger Chinese question things a bit more but they are still only a generation away.
HK by comparison only really knows a Western mindset and Western freedoms. Certainly it's not fully Western, but it's closer to that than it is to China. They have always had high living standards so Chinese rule brings only disadvantages.
Only posting this because of how weird it is(I don't actually agree with the tweet).
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I agree with you on most of this but the last sentence is no longer true. The living standards in HK for the general public is lower now than the equivalent in Chinese cities like Shenzhen etc. The Chinese government has massively improved the standard of living in China for a lot of people and that is why they are able to go abroad and especially HK and spend their money there. In HK an average worker would probably pay 65 to 70 % of his income on rent and this is why the standard of living is down. In China it is different as their plan is to build housing projects after housing projects. They are even building cities even now.
China is like Singapore now. Do not deal in Politics or corruption and you can do whatever you want to do and become rich. I am not saying this as a tourist who has been there but as someone who visits these places regularly for work and business.
I feel sorry for HK. To paraphrase Sir Winston, This is the beginning of the end for HK if this does not stop.
And I am saying this as someone who actually lived there. HK living standards are still miles higher than they are in China. I can understand that in the city centres it may look similar but it doesn't take long to get beneath the surface of that.
This is probably doing wonders for those in Taiwan who want to remain separate from mainland China.
As an average Joe I wouldn't want to live in HK its way too dense, maybe great if you have money. I wouldn't imagine the living standards are great for the average person.